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Author Topic: Parallel Path Magnet Motor  (Read 51045 times)

Offline scianto

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Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« on: September 08, 2010, 08:50:32 AM »
I am experimenting with PPMMs. They are build according to PPMT patented by J. Flynn.
Some of the tests are on my channel:
http://www.youtube.com/scienculo

Any suggestions, co-operation proposals etc. ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« on: September 08, 2010, 08:50:32 AM »

Offline FatChance!!!

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2010, 10:34:47 AM »
Wow, best video demo so far on a motor setup. Great and clear text comments within the video.
It was not blurry or strange as most other videos from free energy nutcases.
Congratulations on a great PPMT build, sorry I mean two great PPMT builds...
I look forward to see your upcoming design progress and videos.

Suggestions and questions:
Perhaps the PPMT motor is not well suited as an efficient generator.
You could test a well proven and efficient pancake generator with a know efficiency curve.

What is the No-Load current of the PPMT motor at 30V?
When testing this please remove the generator to get rid of unwanted drag load.
The No-Load current is a constant due to motor inefficiencies and does not vary by load, only RPM.
It must be kept very small by clever design in order to reach high efficiency.

What type of steel are you using in the motor?
Regular laminated transformer steel?
You could improve efficiency greatly by replacing the steel sheets by MPP powder core technology.

How is the efficiency affected by removing the magnets in the motors?
Just for a test... If there is no efficiency difference, the magnets add no gain.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 04:20:48 PM by FatChance!!! »

Offline tbird

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2010, 04:01:49 PM »
Quote
patented by J. Flynn.

which patent is that?

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2010, 04:01:49 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline wings

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2010, 04:02:03 PM »

Offline scianto

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2010, 09:00:13 PM »
I look forward to see your upcoming design progress and videos.
I will be publishing more videos if anything interesting in my tests appears.

Perhaps the PPMT motor is not well suited as an efficient generator.
I feel the same. I am going to use other alternators and 3 phase motors with capacitors and even DC motors, whatever I can get my hands on.

What is the No-Load current of the PPMT motor at 30V?
That strictly depends on the position of the sensor, that is the switching time related to the rotor position. The motors you see on the videos I made run at 30 V drawing anything from 0,4 A to over 10 A, just by moving the sensor (changing the pulses timing ). Very flexible. The higher amp draw, the higher rotation from a few hundred to several thousands.

What type of steel are you using in the motor?
In fact, I don't know. My friend made the motors for me. He said it is a "transformer steel".

Regular laminated transformer steel?
Probably jest, "regular" and laminated 0.5mm.

How is the efficiency affected by removing the magnets in the motors?
I didn't try it. I would need to dismount the motor to take the magnets out.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2010, 09:00:13 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline FatChance!!!

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2010, 02:00:38 PM »
I will be publishing more videos if anything interesting in my tests appears.
Yes, please do!

I am going to use other alternators and 3 phase motors with capacitors and even DC motors, whatever I can get my hands on.
It seems your motor is 81% efficient. You are using two equivalent PPMT motors in your setup and the test shows 65% peak efficiency.
But this is using dual similar motors and according to physics the efficiency is divided across both units.
So, one motor is 81% efficient => 0.81 x 0.81 = 0,65 (65%) as shown by your setup.

That strictly depends on the position of the sensor, that is the switching time related to the rotor position. The motors you see on the videos I made run at 30 V drawing anything from 0,4 A to over 10 A, just by moving the sensor (changing the pulses timing ). Very flexible. The higher amp draw, the higher rotation from a few hundred to several thousands.
The No-Load current is mostly caused by drag losses from eddy currents and hysteresis in the steel.
Some losses is I2R in the wiring and some else is simply wind drag and ball bearing losses.
Anything that contributes to free running losses is shown as the No-Load current.
Eddy currents and hysteresis can almost be 100% eliminated by using a powder core stator and rotor.
Winding losses can by minimised by using heavy duty Liz wiring at low resistance.
Wind drag is minimised by a smooth stator and rotor design that doesn't "grab hold" to the air.
Bearing losses is improved by good ceramic ball bearings.

I didn't try it. I would need to dismount the motor to take the magnets out.
Please do, if you find some spare time for this test. It's would be very interesting to see.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2010, 03:12:09 PM by FatChance!!! »

Offline Airstriker

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2010, 02:38:42 PM »
Has nobody already tried this ? How about Flynn? I don't believe he hasn't. Could be just a loss of time. But nice setup anyway. I fajnie, że wreszcie jakaś porządna polska robota ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2010, 02:38:42 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Ted Ewert

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2010, 05:13:29 PM »
Nice motor generator set-up! They look very well built.
As you have found out, duty cycle and timing will have the greatest effect on your efficiency. You will also find that loading your motor should increase your efficiency. This is because of the increase in "on time" which allows the magnets to do their work.
You may also want to put a prony brake on the output shaft of your motor instead of the generator. That will give you an absolute measurement of your torque, which you can then easily translate into power.
Once you have that, then you can graph your power curve related to RPM. This will tell you more about the performance characteristics of your motor than anything else. It also gives you a reference to compare with the power in.
Great work.

Ted

Offline wings

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2010, 05:17:08 PM »
just for reference "Parallel Path Effect" in this video: 

http://www.youtube.com/user/KekkoAlkemi#p/u/0/r4PWiyN1G7I



description here - The Astronaut's Magnetic Boots  :

http://www.cheniere.org/misc/astroboots.htm

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2010, 05:17:08 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline scianto

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2010, 08:26:23 PM »
which patent is that?
I am aware of three patents where this technology is described:
2446446 E. F. Wargin "Breakerless Magneto" year 1948
2456475 E. F. Wargin "Ignition System" year 1948
and
6246561 Flynn "Methods for controlling the path of magnetic flux from a permanent magnet and devices incorporating the same." year 2001

I guess, there are more patents about this.

Offline scianto

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2010, 08:30:53 PM »
Has nobody already tried this ?
There are some replications on youtube, especially the Italian ones.

I fajnie, że wreszcie jakaś porządna polska robota ;)
Jedna z wielu, różni się tym, że opublikowana. Też coś robisz w tym kierunku?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2010, 08:30:53 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline scianto

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2010, 08:40:06 PM »
It seems your motor is 81% efficient.
Doing several hundred measurements I got some with efficiency 82 to 83% in this setup. It was quite difficult to find the sweet spots.
I am going to make a spreadsheet with graphs to show some characteristics of this setup.

Thanks for suggestions about minimizing losses. I will do what I can.

Offline tbird

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2010, 06:42:03 PM »

i have been trying to sort out how this unit was constructed.  since a particular patent wasn't stated as the one used in construction, i've had to read about each that i could find (what a job!!).

patrick kelly's e-book (download here http://www.free-energy-info.com/PJKBook.html) has 2 of flynn's patents in it.  patent 6246561 (june 2001) and patent 5455474 (oct 1995).  a third, patent 6342746 (jan 2002) is linked here...

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Flynn_Parallel_Path_motor

this is Mike Schukel's replication which claims ...

The motor has 3.5 times more output power relative to input, compared to a conventional motor, as well as being compact, high torque, all while operating at ambient temperatures.

i have a problem with fppp being effective when used this way.  Mike also gives a "Flynn Parallel Path principle project."  here...

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:FPPP:Assembly

in here he says..

"One thing to note: The end bar on the active side of the devcice must be in place or the parallel path effect will not take place. In other words if a flux path is not provided on the active side of the device when you apply power. You will not see the flux focus to one side. So make sure you have both end bars in place when you test the device. "

this makes me think the starting force is no more than the electromagnet would have by itself.  so no benefit until it's time to release (and you have to use power to do this), then it's too late.  i could be wrong.

another thing that bothers me is for this to be efficient, you should have enough metal to keep the flux from saturating and spilling out.  without this, won't the distance of attraction be limited?  thus the reason for the above comment ("..must be in place..") by mike.

patent 5455474 (oct 1995) on the other hand uses magnets on the stator and rotor with coils on top of the stator magnets to modify the fields.   kelly does a good job of explaining this unit.

in kelly's e-book where he covers patent 6246561 (pages a-338 to a-410), more than 1 design motor is covered.  lots of info here.

after all this, i still have to ask, what design did you use?

tom

Offline scianto

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2010, 08:44:03 PM »
A lot of work, thank you for posting this informations here.

I also did study it for a few hours, read the patents and watch the films on youtube before experimenting. As always, theory is one way and practical tests not always give expected results.
after all this, i still have to ask, what design did you use?
I am using the 6 pole design.
Here:
http://servilo.website.pl/laboratorio/esploroj/rownolegle_strumienie/SRSM2/
are construction details and some films from the tests.

Offline Ted Ewert

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Re: Parallel Path Magnet Motor
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2010, 10:31:00 PM »

..."One thing to note: The end bar on the active side of the devcice must be in place or the parallel path effect will not take place. In other words if a flux path is not provided on the active side of the device when you apply power. You will not see the flux focus to one side. So make sure you have both end bars in place when you test the device. "

this makes me think the starting force is no more than the electromagnet would have by itself.  so no benefit until it's time to release (and you have to use power to do this), then it's too late.  i could be wrong.
What was quoted is true, but only for establishing a new flux path. The flux can be redirected in a motor across the gap, but only for as long as the coils are active. After that the flux reverts back to whichever pathway offers the least reluctance.
With the size and number of magnets this motor has it should be way over 100% efficient. 81% is typical for a regular motor of that size. The only conclusion one can derive is that the magnets are not being utilized in this design. I've seen the same thing in other Flynn motors too.
This motor is beautifully constructed. There is nothing wrong with the materials either. In theory it should perform as predicted; it should be way over unity, but it isn't. Why?
Because you can't switch flux from a permanent magnet instantly through a coil. There is a lag time, and if you don't wait through the lag no flux gets switched. IMHO, the Flynn motor is switching way too fast for the PM flux to do any work.
This could be tested quite "easily" by removing the magnets and replacing them with steel inserts. If the same efficiency level is observed, then you know the magnets are not being utilized.
This is a beautiful motor but lets be honest, 81% just doesn't cut it. We should be seeing 200 to 400%. We need to figure out how to efficiently switch and utilize the magnets, or this is all for nothing.
I'm actively working on this very problem and will gladly share whatever results I find.

Cheers,

Ted

 

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