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Author Topic: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?  (Read 31109 times)

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2010, 01:06:30 AM »
Quote
I would buy an item for 11 cent, repair it, and sell it for 30 cent.

wrong!

this is exactly why i put this challenge out there.  to show how quickly people here get away from the topic by not reading or at least not understanding what is stated.  nothing was mentioned about converting or giving change or whatever.  the question is "what 2 coins would they be?"  very simple.

tom
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 12:51:50 PM by tbird »

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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2010, 01:20:30 AM »
Quote
Agree!
just some considerations
In the the patent, 7 shielding plates are over the relative magnets and the operating springs are compressed, just one off and the relative spring is not compressed.
The rotating magnets running out on larger radius, the stator magnet are bit inside all seem designed to suck (operate) the shielding plate in traction way not pushing???  at least near balanced.


wings,

again we find someone who doesn't understand the subject.

this machine only uses magnets that don't move, thus they are part of the stators (2 stators).  also the radius of where the shields go is the same as the rotor blocks.  the drive for moving the shields does have a smaller radius.  this gives the force of attraction (rotor block to stator magnet) leverage to move the shields.

please study some more.  i'd love to have your comments once you know the subject.

tom

Offline wings

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2010, 12:37:53 PM »
wings,

again we find someone who doesn't understand the subject.

this machine only uses magnets that don't move, thus they are part of the stators (2 stators).  also the radius of where the shields go is the same as the rotor blocks.  the drive for moving the shields does have a smaller radius.  this gives the force of attraction (rotor block to stator magnet) leverage to move the shields.

please study some more.  i'd love to have your comments once you know the subject.

tom
An important issue is the friction between the shielding plates and the stator surface.
A very simple analysis with hypothetical numbers can show OU less friction more gain.

 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 01:29:26 PM by wings »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2010, 12:37:53 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2010, 12:19:57 AM »
Quote
"if you are given the choice of a 25 cent, 10 cent, 5 cent, & 1 cent coins to make 30 cents using any 2 coins with the condition one of them can NOT be a 5 cent coin, what 2 coins would they be?"

hi all,

it has been over a day since i posted this challenge.  no one has come forth with the answer.  well, for those who are waiting on pins and needles, here is the answer.

the 2 coins will be the 25 cent and 5 cent coins.

i know what you are thinking, "..but he said one couldn't be a 5 cent coin!!"  that is right.  the 25 cent coin is not a 5 cent coin.  note in the condition it says "one of them", not "neither of them".

as has been said before, "the devil is in the detail!".

tom

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2010, 03:45:57 PM »
Quote
The travel distance of the shield, or any shields, is a very important detail.

i agree, to a point.  the distance the shield has to travel in this machine is the width of the stator magnet.  in this machine, at worst, it is the same as the distance the rotor block will travel once the shield is removed until it is replaced (power part of cycle).  what you may not be considering is the spring that moves the shield off the magnet.  the attraction of the magnet to the shield works in one direction while the force of the spring works in the other direction.  since the spring has 1 (+or-) unit more force than the attraction, the spring wins the battle by a net force of 1 (+or-) unit.  from fig.5 we see the rotor has about a 4 to 1 leverage advantage over the cam.  this reduces the load of the shield even more.  the hard part (in my mind) is the angle of the cam (ramp) the roller on the inner end of rod 64 has to climb.  here, as wings says, friction will play a big part.  i think this is where we will have to make changes for this machine to work.

Quote
If the "units" corresponds to the energy, I strongly believe your figures are wrong as long the equations ends up in more or less than 0.

please feel free to rework my numbers.  if i have made a mistake, let me know.

Quote
Let us turn this motor (in the patent we are discussing) "up side down" and let the rotor bee the magnetic shielding, and the shield be the part that is suppose to do work.

to me, that would be like using the wheels of a car to turn the engine.  why would we do that except to start the engine when the built in starter didn't work.


Quote
...no matter how the shields are controlled and moved around, it ends up in the same configuration as when you started - at the very same potential.

this doesn't seem to be a bad thing with this machine.  to start, the rotor is being attracted to a stator magnet.  this produces energy.  from here that energy is passed to the power shaft which passes a small part to the cam to move the shield at about the end of the power section of the cycle.  the rest can be used to do work elsewhere.  now we are back where we started.  let's do more work in the next cycle.

Quote
It is still impossible to create energy out of a conservative force like permanent magnetism -  by "conservative" we mean "no change", also by "permanent" we mean "no change".

The motor in the patent will not work.

this is the saddest thing i've seen you write.  if you believe this, why are you here?  there must be something else that can happen (in your mind) that allows this to be true and yet will give us our goal.  enlighten me.

tom

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2010, 03:45:57 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2010, 02:34:45 PM »

hi all,

i've been thinking about the cam and feel i didn't do a very good job of explaining what i think is the problem.  let me try a different way.

if we look at the roller (73") on the end of the inner end of rod 64 and place a compass rose on it with south (180 degrees) being the part touching the cam track at its inner most point (closest to center point of power shaft), we can then follow the point on the rose that makes contact with the track throughout the cycle.

to start, looking at fig.2 (rotation clockwise), this contact looks to be from south (180 degrees) to about southwest (225 degrees).  if we continued this rotation, we would see this contact point continues out until it reaches the full travel limit.  by the time it gets there, the contact point is at or near west (270 degrees).
 
this means that less and less force is applied outward and more and more of the force is applied to the side. if it reaches west, no force will be felt outward.  the machine would stop.

the further out the shield is pushed, the more effort to compress the spring is needed.  granted the magnet attraction should get stronger, but remember, it will never be strong enough to overcome the spring.  something needs to be arranged to prevent the contact point moving beyond southwest (225 degrees).

is everyone with me?  any questions so far?

tom

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2010, 06:09:13 PM »
hi all,

maybe everyone needs more time to think about the shielding.

let's address the source of power, the attraction of the rotor block to the stator magnet.

is a block magnet the best shape to give the most attraction in this configuration?  might a cylinder magnet with the north on half the curved surface and south on the other half be better?  my thinking is it would have to lay on its side exposing one or the other pole only.

does it matter?

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2010, 06:09:13 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2010, 02:33:38 PM »
Quote
An important issue is the friction between the shielding plates and the stator surface.
A very simple analysis with hypothetical numbers can show OU less friction more gain.

wings,

i think something like this

http://www.automotioncomponents.co.uk/purchase.php?p_no=L1024&id=27&method=w

will work nicely for the shields.  should prevent shield contact with stator magnet and surrounding parts.

as you can see from the info, coefficients of friction is .003.

thanks for your comments.

tom

Offline wings

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2010, 09:55:28 PM »
wings,

i think something like this

http://www.automotioncomponents.co.uk/purchase.php?p_no=L1024&id=27&method=w

will work nicely for the shields.  should prevent shield contact with stator magnet and surrounding parts.

as you can see from the info, coefficients of friction is .003.

thanks for your comments.

tom

on this slide you have to mount the screen in one of the two sides.
Its thickness is not compatible with the patent drawing, to maximize the pull force, the rotor and the stator must be close.

I'd rather start with a test consisting of a pendulum with a mobile shielding operated by his motion, if the oscillation is amplified it is OU.
Or from a device similar to this patent 3899703_PERMANENT_MAGNET_MOTION_CONVERSION


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2010, 09:55:28 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2010, 05:15:58 PM »
hi wings,

Quote
on this slide you have to mount the screen in one of the two sides.
Its thickness is not compatible with the patent drawing, to maximize the pull force, the rotor and the stator must be close.

if we attach the rod/bar (64) that the shield is attached to to the car on the slide, i think the space between the rotor block and stator won't change.  it still has to be thick enough to contain the field.  at least with the slide, the shield won't have to drag on any surfaces.

 
Quote
I'd rather start with a test consisting of a pendulum with a mobile shielding operated by his motion, if the oscillation is amplified it is OU.

i think any test you can do would be a grand idea!!

Quote
Or from a device similar to this patent 3899703_PERMANENT_MAGNET_MOTION_CONVERSION

i had a look at that patent.  the diverter plate (shield), if built to the size of the drawings, has a fair amount of travel.  of the 2 methods he mentions (solenoid & cam) to move the diverter, which would be your choice?

since there are magnets in the stator and rotor, mostly in repell mode, i think spacing between rotor and stator can be wider without losing as much as jines machine would.  this might be worth its own thread.

let us know how your test go.

tom

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2010, 09:26:14 PM »

hi all,

about the attachment....

can the spring (4) be adjusted to move the shield (3) so it uncovers the stationary magnet (2) in the top figure (starting between the 2 magnets & ending as in the bottom figure), but only require little effort to move it back over the stationary magnet (2)?

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2010, 09:26:14 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2010, 03:40:39 PM »

ok, maybe that was so easy , it was hard.  let's have a look at it a little different.

assuming the shield assy is as far right as possible, with the only influence on the shields being the magnetic pull of the magnets, where will the shield assy want to go, from the shown position, naturally?

1. nowhere
2. to the left (covering left stationary magnet)
3. center between magnets

tom

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2010, 05:11:30 PM »

hi all,

since no one feels one way or the other, let's assume the shield wants to go between the magnets and the spring can just overcome this action enough to move the shield out to a point the magnet is uncovered.

let's add the lever arm to the simplest form (see att).

any thoughts?

tom

Offline wings

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2010, 08:51:46 AM »
hi all,

since no one feels one way or the other, let's assume the shield wants to go between the magnets and the spring can just overcome this action enough to move the shield out to a point the magnet is uncovered.

let's add the lever arm to the simplest form (see att).

any thoughts?

tom
I try ???

the magnetic field acts as a potential field, then except for the losses due to hysteresis that you enter can be returned.

you can draw a spring or a cam that balances the force of attraction or repulsion at any point of rotation.

energy balance has to be done on the friction and hysteresis losses



Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2010, 11:37:35 AM »
Quote
you can draw a spring or a cam that balances the force of attraction or repulsion at any point of rotation.

energy balance has to be done on the friction and hysteresis losses

does that mean you think the shield can be moved in and out (on the linear bearing) with little effort if the spring is adjusted correctly?

tom

 

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