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Author Topic: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?  (Read 31107 times)

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2010, 10:23:30 PM »
Hope,

you maybe right about the other thread.  for now, there are at least a few of us who can find time to look at this.  we'll hang in there and see what develops.

NTesla,  wings,

those are interesting machines and data, and good food for thought, but a bit off the design (jines) in this thread.

stating the obvious, the question is "can the shield be moved away and back over the stator magnet with less energy than the machine can provide by attracting the metal piece on the rotor to a magnet in the stator?".

if no, what needs to be changed so it can work?

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2010, 04:37:36 PM »
Quote
also, i would like other opinions on what the shield would do on its own without the spring and not connected to anything.  in other words if it were installed and had to be operated by hand, where would the shield starting point be?  how much effect would the stator magnet have on the shield?


about the shield....

i think it will be attracted to the magnet (more so) as the rotor block is.  let's say the force is 10 units.  since the rotor block will not be as close as the shield, its attractive force will be less, let's say it is 7 units.  how can 7 units provide enough force to move a shield that is being attracted by 10 units?  in this case, the spring.  if it is compressed with 11 units of force, if not restricted by the cam, will uncover the magnet.  to overcome this force to move the shield back over the magnet, the cam only has to provide 1.something units plus the effort to overcome the angle of the cam ramp.

does this now sound more reasonable?  might it work?

tom

Offline Low-Q

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2010, 10:27:03 PM »
about the shield....

i think it will be attracted to the magnet (more so) as the rotor block is.  let's say the force is 10 units.  since the rotor block will not be as close as the shield, its attractive force will be less, let's say it is 7 units.  how can 7 units provide enough force to move a shield that is being attracted by 10 units?  in this case, the spring.  if it is compressed with 11 units of force, if not restricted by the cam, will uncover the magnet.  to overcome this force to move the shield back over the magnet, the cam only has to provide 1.something units plus the effort to overcome the angle of the cam ramp.

does this now sound more reasonable?  might it work?

tom
The problem with shields, are that they affects the magnetism as much as they are being affected by the magnetism - ofcourse. So any attemt to apply or remove a shield require ofcourse the net force per distance that will occour in the motor to provide torque per revolution. You must apply energy to the shields to make them doing the job you want. There is no way a magnet motor can supply shielding by its own power, because the shield are depended on the motormagnets as much as the motormagnets are depended on the shields. It's very logic when you think about it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2010, 10:27:03 PM »
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Offline wings

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2010, 10:50:17 PM »
The problem with shields, are that they affects the magnetism as much as they are being affected by the magnetism - of course. So any attempt to apply or remove a shield require of course the net force per distance that will occur in the motor to provide torque per revolution. You must apply energy to the shields to make them doing the job you want. There is no way a magnet motor can supply shielding by its own power, because the shield are depended on the motormagnets as much as the motormagnets are depended on the shields. It's very logic when you think about it.
thinking about how to shield the magnetism there are different ways
- by magnetic material like METGLAS Mu-METAL - Containing the Field
- by diamagnetic like -pyrolitic graphite - Expelling the Field
- by electric system - switching the field expelling or containing the field (like Astronauts Radus boots)
... and different geometry
 ???
http://www.coolmagnetman.com/magshield.htm

Offline lwh

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2010, 01:23:13 AM »
...There is no way a magnet motor can supply shielding by its own power, because the shield are depended on the motormagnets as much as the motormagnets are depended on the shields...

I share that opinon.  It's like thinking something like this can be real, only it's harder to see and more tempting to believe in -


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2010, 01:23:13 AM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2010, 02:03:21 AM »
Low-Q,

Quote
The problem with shields, are that they affects the magnetism as much as they are being affected by the magnetism - ofcourse. So any attemt to apply or remove a shield require ofcourse the net force per distance that will occour in the motor to provide torque per revolution. You must apply energy to the shields to make them doing the job you want. There is no way a magnet motor can supply shielding by its own power, because the shield are depended on the motormagnets as much as the motormagnets are depended on the shields. It's very logic when you think about it.

now that you've spit that out, can you make a comment on my post?  is my math wrong?  did i not consider something important?

tom

Offline Hope

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2010, 05:04:52 AM »
Making and braking the magnetic "barr" might be accomplished with mercury spinning in ring containing embedded magnets,you could really get this liquid metal (maybe heated bismuth is safer) spinning within a Rodin coil field. Glass containment could be simple within a bottle with the air evacuated.   Etch coat the glass with your coil configs,  sweet generator and more.   Wouldn't the stern magnets be in for a wild ride on that surface.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2010, 05:04:52 AM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2010, 04:40:00 PM »
hope,

before we scrap jines design all together, let's find the flaw in it first.

to all those who instantly say "this will not work"......

"if you are given the choice of a 25 cent, 10 cent, 5 cent, & 1 cent coins to make 30 cents using any 2 coins with the condition one of them can NOT be a 5 cent coin, what 2 coins would they be?"

.....you will probably say "it can't be done".

if you know the answer, please post a reply here.  no explanation is needed at this time.

let's see who the real thinkers are and who are just "talking heads".

tom

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2010, 05:48:19 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Low-Q on October 02, 2010, 06:27:03 PM...There is no way a magnet motor can supply shielding by its own power, because the shield are depended on the motormagnets as much as the motormagnets are depended on the shields...


I share that opinon.  It's like thinking something like this can be real, only it's harder to see and more tempting to believe in -

iwh,

i'm not sure which design low-q is talking about, but that statement does not apply to jines.

maybe you still haven't figured out how it works.  there are 2 stators containing magnets.  while one side is attracting the rotor, the other side is being prepaired to attract the rotor.  if "a magnetically responsive block, (soft iron or steel) will be attracted to a magnet." is true, then depending on the strength of the magnet, we can assign a force value it creates.  in one of my earlier post i gave this value 7 units.

this 7 units is transferred to the power shaft which contains 2 cams.  these cams are set to apply an outward force to actuating rods (or bars)(64) attached to Shields 63.  since we have predetermined the force of attraction (10 units because it is closer to the magnet than the rotor block) of the shield to the magnet, we can size the spring (74) to be just strong enough to remove the shield so it doesn't cover the magnet.  with spring in place and cam not interacting, the net force to move the shield back over the magnet would be 1 unit.  this could vary a bit due to travel distance of the shield.

this brings us to where i have concerns.  with cam in place and magnet uncovered, the shield, in a distance of 1/16 of the circumference of the cam/rotor, will be required to recover the magnet.  the good news is only 1 shield is a load at any given time.  that is when the magnet is to be covered.  uncovering is the job of the spring.

jines cam arrangement can be changed so the covering process is not as big of a load, but i'm not sure of the effect of a longer uncovered time.

if you want to point fingers at something that might be a problem, this is probably a good place to start.

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2010, 05:48:19 PM »
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Offline Thaelin

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2010, 07:15:31 PM »
 the coins is easy. quarter and dime. I just have 5 extra now. be glad to give it back to you.

thay

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2010, 08:02:11 PM »

wrong!  next.

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2010, 08:02:11 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2010, 10:55:12 PM »
iwh,

i'm not sure which design low-q is talking about, but that statement does not apply to jines.

maybe you still haven't figured out how it works.  there are 2 stators containing magnets.  while one side is attracting the rotor, the other side is being prepaired to attract the rotor.  if "a magnetically responsive block, (soft iron or steel) will be attracted to a magnet." is true, then depending on the strength of the magnet, we can assign a force value it creates.  in one of my earlier post i gave this value 7 units.

this 7 units is transferred to the power shaft which contains 2 cams.  these cams are set to apply an outward force to actuating rods (or bars)(64) attached to Shields 63.  since we have predetermined the force of attraction (10 units because it is closer to the magnet than the rotor block) of the shield to the magnet, we can size the spring (74) to be just strong enough to remove the shield so it doesn't cover the magnet.  with spring in place and cam not interacting, the net force to move the shield back over the magnet would be 1 unit.  this could vary a bit due to travel distance of the shield.

this brings us to where i have concerns.  with cam in place and magnet uncovered, the shield, in a distance of 1/16 of the circumference of the cam/rotor, will be required to recover the magnet.  the good news is only 1 shield is a load at any given time.  that is when the magnet is to be covered.  uncovering is the job of the spring.

jines cam arrangement can be changed so the covering process is not as big of a load, but i'm not sure of the effect of a longer uncovered time.

if you want to point fingers at something that might be a problem, this is probably a good place to start.

tom
The travel distance of the shield, or any shields, is a very important detail. One thing is to discuss forces, but forces alone are nothing what so ever without the distance it will provide force. No matter what magnet motor we discuss, the shielding will never be able to do anything without energy input. The energy that has been spent or provided are totally dependent of the product of average force per the given distance. If the units you are using are the forces. If you spend 10 units over a distance of 7cm, the product of these are the same as 7 units over a distance of 10cm - they have provided or consumed the same amount of energy. We must always focus on the energy, and not let us bee fooled by the forces alone. If the "units" corresponds to the energy, I strongly believe your figures are wrong as long the equations ends up in more or less than 0.

Let us turn this motor (in the patent we are discussing) "up side down" and let the rotor bee the magnetic shielding, and the shield be the part that is suppose to do work. Now it is easier to see how the actual rotor are as much dependent on the shielding in order to do work, as the shielding are depended on the rotor in order to do work. They will always be inside the same system, in the very same closed loop. In a closed loop there has in average not happened anything, because during one revolution of the rotor, no matter how the shields are controlled and moved around, it ends up in the same configuration as when you started - at the very same potential.

It is still impossible to create energy out of a conservative force like permanent magnetism -  by "conservative" we mean "no change", also by "permanent" we mean "no change".

The motor in the patent will not work.

Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2010, 11:08:19 PM »
hope,

before we scrap jines design all together, let's find the flaw in it first.

to all those who instantly say "this will not work"......

"if you are given the choice of a 25 cent, 10 cent, 5 cent, & 1 cent coins to make 30 cents using any 2 coins with the condition one of them can NOT be a 5 cent coin, what 2 coins would they be?"

.....you will probably say "it can't be done".

if you know the answer, please post a reply here.  no explanation is needed at this time.

let's see who the real thinkers are and who are just "talking heads".

tom
I would buy an item for 11 cent, repair it, and sell it for 30 cent.

Offline wings

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2010, 11:27:15 PM »
We must always focus on the energy, and not let us bee fooled by the forces alone. If the "units" corresponds to the energy, I strongly believe your figures are wrong as long the equations ends up in more or less than 0.
Agree!
just some considerations
In the the patent, 7 shielding plates are over the relative magnets and the operating springs are compressed, just one off and the relative spring is not compressed.
The rotating magnets running out on larger radius, the stator magnet are bit inside all seem designed to suck (operate) the shielding plate in traction way not pushing???  at least near balanced.

 

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2010, 12:57:37 AM »
Quote
The travel distance of the shield, or any shields, is a very important detail. One thing is to discuss forces, but forces alone are nothing what so ever without the distance it will provide force. No matter what magnet motor we discuss, the shielding will never be able to do anything without energy input. The energy that has been spent or provided are totally dependent of the product of average force per the given distance. If the units you are using are the forces. If you spend 10 units over a distance of 7cm, the product of these are the same as 7 units over a distance of 10cm - they have provided or consumed the same amount of energy. We must always focus on the energy, and not let us bee fooled by the forces alone. If the "units" corresponds to the energy, I strongly believe your figures are wrong as long the equations ends up in more or less than 0.

Let us turn this motor (in the patent we are discussing) "up side down" and let the rotor bee the magnetic shielding, and the shield be the part that is suppose to do work. Now it is easier to see how the actual rotor are as much dependent on the shielding in order to do work, as the shielding are depended on the rotor in order to do work. They will always be inside the same system, in the very same closed loop. In a closed loop there has in average not happened anything, because during one revolution of the rotor, no matter how the shields are controlled and moved around, it ends up in the same configuration as when you started - at the very same potential.

It is still impossible to create energy out of a conservative force like permanent magnetism -  by "conservative" we mean "no change", also by "permanent" we mean "no change".

The motor in the patent will not work.

Vidar

vidar,

now we are getting somewhere.  nice reply.

i don't have much time now (maybe tomorrow) to catch all your points.  i do think i have some good counter points.  for now i'll just do some quick replies to the other question at hand.

tom

 

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