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Author Topic: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?  (Read 30218 times)

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2010, 02:04:57 PM »
hi ntesla,

good to see there is at least one out there with enough time and interest to reply here.

i hope e2matrix is reading this.  maybe now he can, for now, come back too and look for another reason for this machine to not work.

i do have 1 question for you about the neutral effect.  does it have the same feel for another piece of ferrite material as another magnet?  i would think the shielding (i'll use it to keep things simple) thickness wouldn't have to be as exact for ferrite material as a magnet since there won't be any attraction between the 2 ferrite materials (as long as the shield isn't saturated).  of course you would want to use as little material for shielding as possible so the space between the rotor block and stator will be as small as possible.

am i thinking clear here?

tom


edit..  i should add lwh to this "come back too" list since he had a comment about the shielding too.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline NTesla

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2010, 08:40:43 PM »
hi ntesla,

good to see there is at least one out there with enough time and interest to reply here.

i hope e2matrix is reading this.  maybe now he can, for now, come back too and look for another reason for this machine to not work.

i do have 1 question for you about the neutral effect.  does it have the same feel for another piece of ferrite material as another magnet?  i would think the shielding (i'll use it to keep things simple) thickness wouldn't have to be as exact for ferrite material as a magnet since there won't be any attraction between the 2 ferrite materials (as long as the shield isn't saturated).  of course you would want to use as little material for shielding as possible so the space between the rotor block and stator will be as small as possible.

am i thinking clear here?

tom


edit..  i should add lwh to this "come back too" list since he had a comment about the shielding too.

I am not sure what you mean by "another piece of ferrite material". The effect works because you have two magnets with the same poles opposing each other e.g S to S but the ferrite material in between the magnets will always be attracted to BOTH poles. My experiments were based on having one magnet and the ferrite material as the stator and the other magnet as part of the rotor.

The combination of ferrite thickness, its ferromagnetic properties, in relation to the strength of the magnets needs to be taken into account. Therefore the distance between the the rotor magnet and ferrite material at 'neutral' will be dependent on the above factors.

The potential here (my experiments were not scientific but I think they merit more investigation!) is that you can use the ferrite material of the stator - at distance - for attraction and then transition to repulsion once the rotor magnet gets close enough to the other magnet. The neutral point means, unlike the transitioning from one pole to the other of a magnet, there is no force (i.e 'sticking point') you need to overcome.

Have I built a working motor that demonstrates this idea as workable? No - but I have confirmed the effect using a ferrite block and some magnets.

Offline lwh

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2010, 11:50:24 PM »
Tbird, it seems to me you know what effect is required to make the design in the patent you referred to, work.  So get some magnets and some 'shielding' and see if you can create the required effect.  You don't have to build the whole device first, just prove the practicality of the key effect/s that would make it run.

I don't really have anything further to add, as besides not being knowledgeable enough in these matters, I'm not really interested in theoretical discussions about what may or may not work. 

However ;D 

Shielding in general, the neutral-point phenomena just recently mentioned, the Radus/Hildenbrand magnetic field amplification effect, other phenomena I've forgotten the name of; they can all be used to overcome the sticky spot and create an overunity device.  Theoretically.  But to actually do it for real is not that easy.  These things require intricate placements of materials and timing of reactions far beyond what can be readily measured.  Tools don't even exist to measure some of the interactions taking place.  And depending on what it is you think you know, you can't even rely on your intuition, when counter-intuitive actions are required.  Add to that all the human complications, including laziness, fear of failure, fear of success, lack of access to adequate time and resources, and more, and even the most valid theory can be prevented from being put into practice.  But, again, that's what it takes.  Despite all the odds against it, despite all the complications and reasons not to.  At some point someone, somewhere, has to get their hands dirty and make the tangible device that utilizes these effects.  As, I believe, has been done, more than once.  Everything else is just talk though.  Including this, so...   

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2010, 11:50:24 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2010, 02:14:37 AM »
hello lwh,

i guess you are right.  no need to ask first if anybody has experience or can see a theoretical problem with this patent.  guess i'll get my checkbook out and dingy ashore to the nearest machine shop and see what they can build.  i really should have just done that in the first place.  THANKS for the advice!!

tom

Offline lwh

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2010, 09:53:47 PM »
It made sense to ask here about the design.  It just turns out no-one's tried it or is interested.  Shit happens. 

As far as seeing what the nearest maching shop can build, I wouldn't bother.  They can build whatever they've got the tools to build, and what they're not equipped to make, some other place will be.  But none of them can be expected to help you figure out what it is you want them to make.  All they want is your money and a clear diagram to follow.  Though even then they might knock back your custom if they think what you're asking looks like it'd be more trouble than it's worth.

It's all just my opinion, but I think your best bet is to literally get two magnets and put some shielding between them and see if you can get them to behave in a way that might allow them to be used in a design like the one in that patent you found.  Then, if there's something there that you think might be useful, redesign the patented machine to suit your available materials and make, or get made, some parts to do further testing with.  Then, if you still think it'll work, make or get made the parts for the whole thing, put it together and see what happens.  But, first and foremost, if you can't get a decent shielding effect to start off with, forget it.

Remember too that just because something works on paper doesn't mean it'll work for real.  That patent, or any other design, might be logically flawless and critic proof, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll work when actually built.  Some designs are like those Escher drawings where water flows quite believeably uphill, only it's harder to tell what the actual illusion is.

Hope this helps.  I'm not trying to discourage you, but I don't want to encourage you to waste your time or money either.

By the way, what's your opinion on the Torbay device?  From how you've described the device in the patent you found, if the shielding worked, I get the impression it'd be working in a similar fashion to the Torbay device, wherein it's in a perpetual state of disequilibrium, forever falling into a gap between the moving magnets.  I ask this because I'm a bit critical of those sort of designs, to the point where I really doubt they can work, and I was wondering if you've thought about that aspect of the design.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2010, 09:53:47 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2010, 04:54:15 PM »
Quote
I am not sure what you mean by "another piece of ferrite material". The effect works because you have two magnets with the same poles opposing each other e.g S to S but the ferrite material in between the magnets will always be attracted to BOTH poles. My experiments were based on having one magnet and the ferrite material as the stator and the other magnet as part of the rotor.

The combination of ferrite thickness, its ferromagnetic properties, in relation to the strength of the magnets needs to be taken into account. Therefore the distance between the the rotor magnet and ferrite material at 'neutral' will be dependent on the above factors.

The potential here (my experiments were not scientific but I think they merit more investigation!) is that you can use the ferrite material of the stator - at distance - for attraction and then transition to repulsion once the rotor magnet gets close enough to the other magnet. The neutral point means, unlike the transitioning from one pole to the other of a magnet, there is no force (i.e 'sticking point') you need to overcome.

Have I built a working motor that demonstrates this idea as workable? No - but I have confirmed the effect using a ferrite block and some magnets.

NTesla,

sorry for the confusion.  you, like me, think it logical to use a magnet not only on the stator, but also on the rotor.  Jine did not.  maybe because of the thinking 40+ years ago, he designed his motor with attraction to metal in the rotor.  a lot of motors today use this method but with electromagnets (no shielding) which are timed to turn on and off at the desired time.

with that in mind, in Jine's machine, the stator magnet can be hidden from the rotor block (ferrite material) if the shield is thick enough to contain all of the flux from the magnet.  if this is done, the rotor will not be attracted to  the magnet.  if when the magnet is uncovered and the rotor block is close enough, the rotor should be drawn to the magnet.  this is where the rotation is developed.  once the rotor is near covering the magnet (its work is done for that segment of the cycle), the shield should then cover the magnet so the rotor can continue on with little or no resistance (that would be caused by the stator magnet) to the next step in the cycle.

Quote
The effect works because you have two magnets with the same poles opposing each other e.g S to S but the ferrite material in between the magnets will always be attracted to BOTH poles.


i don't think this is exactly right.  if the ferrite material is not large enough to handle all the flux from the first magnet, then the second magnet will still feel resistance from the field of the first and will not stick to the ferrite material, at least where the first magnet is located.

hope we are on the same page now.

tom

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2010, 06:57:31 PM »
Quote
By the way, what's your opinion on the Torbay device?  From how you've described the device in the patent you found, if the shielding worked, I get the impression it'd be working in a similar fashion to the Torbay device, wherein it's in a perpetual state of disequilibrium, forever falling into a gap between the moving magnets.  I ask this because I'm a bit critical of those sort of designs, to the point where I really doubt they can work, and I was wondering if you've thought about that aspect of the design.

lwh,

torbay uses repulsion rather than attraction to make the rotor turn.  at the same time, torbay ask his design to do a lot of work, even before giving up extra power to, say drive a generator.

the ramps used to move the magnets (like you would say) look like a reasonable way to get the magnets up and down when needed.  i have found, in one device i tried, that when the roller meets the ramp, unless everything is perfectly machined, it sounds and feels like the roller just ran into a brick wall.  to say the least, this was enough to kill my hopes of it working.

in torbays unit there were a lot of hinges too.  with a hinge, you get or lose leverage.  i think his was on the losing end.

in this thread "Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2" a couple of guys tried really hard to build this design, but in the end gave up.

there maybe more than 1 reason jine's machine won't work, but i think the most likely reason would be the cam arrangement.  i have come up with what i think would be a better way for that (rat trap inspired), but would like to hear others thoughts before giving up on jine's approach to this.

also, i would like other opinions on what the shield would do on its own without the spring and not connected to anything.  in other words if it were installed and had to be operated by hand, where would the shield starting point be?  how much effect would the stator magnet have on the shield?

tom


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2010, 06:57:31 PM »
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Offline wings

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2010, 03:35:26 PM »
a new piston Generator:
An energy producing apparatus utilizing magnetic pistons is provided. Permanent magnets of like polarity are employed within a cylinder of each piston and upon a top portion of said piston. The like polarity pistons have a natural desire to repel one another. A ferromagnetic slipper unit is...

Patent number: 7330094
Filing date: May 16, 2006
Issue date: Feb 12, 2008

Offline NTesla

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2010, 06:37:06 PM »
NTesla,
 
i don't think this is exactly right.  if the ferrite material is not large enough to handle all the flux from the first magnet, then the second magnet will still feel resistance from the field of the first and will not stick to the ferrite material, at least where the first magnet is located.

hope we are on the same page now.

tom

Your right  ;D My statement was in the context of having a ferrite material of suitable thickness - if it ain't thick enough it will not work!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2010, 06:37:06 PM »
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Offline NTesla

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2010, 06:42:35 PM »
a new piston Generator:
An energy producing apparatus utilizing magnetic pistons is provided. Permanent magnets of like polarity are employed within a cylinder of each piston and upon a top portion of said piston. The like polarity pistons have a natural desire to repel one another. A ferromagnetic slipper unit is...

Patent number: 7330094
Filing date: May 16, 2006
Issue date: Feb 12, 2008

Interesting patent - I have only read the image and therefore my first question is about how much energy is required to remove the ferromagnetic slipper unit considering it looks like force is required to overcome its attraction to BOTH pistons. If this is true where is the net gain? Seems to me it would only be worth it if the energy required to move the ferromagnetic slipper in a cycle was less than the combined repulsion of the magnets and losses through friction etc.

Offline Hope

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2010, 06:51:18 PM »
Hello tbryd and thread readers,   I think the reason not much viewing on this thread yet due to the very recent open source Anton or Meyers replica... hydoxy cells.   A cell is shown free running making at least 1000 watts thru a generator engine.   The Meyer replication was 50LPM at 50 Amps in their release as open source video.  Their webpage is Future Energy Concepts out of Arizona. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2010, 06:51:18 PM »
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Offline wings

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2010, 10:16:15 AM »
Interesting patent - I have only read the image and therefore my first question is about how much energy is required to remove the ferromagnetic slipper unit considering it looks like force is required to overcome its attraction to BOTH pistons. If this is true where is the net gain? Seems to me it would only be worth it if the energy required to move the ferromagnetic slipper in a cycle was less than the combined repulsion of the magnets and losses through friction etc.

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm


Offline NTesla

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2010, 11:52:57 AM »
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm
Nice find :) I have visted the Naudin site before but never noticed that article.

Offline wings

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2010, 12:06:26 PM »
Nice find :) I have visted the Naudin site before but never noticed that article.
potential energy and delivered energy are another story ....

E = Force X Displacement

also to investigate two magnet and in between the use of pyrolitic carbon shielding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolytic_carbon

Naudin motor-generator:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mppprop.htm
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 01:43:43 PM by wings »

Offline NTesla

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2010, 06:55:32 PM »
potential energy and delivered energy are another story ....

E = Force X Displacement

also to investigate two magnet and in between the use of pyrolitic carbon shielding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolytic_carbon

Naudin motor-generator:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mppprop.htm

I think alot of those pure magnet motor type theoretical designs fail to take into account the energy required to first get magnets with the same polarity into the state where they can use their repulsion for 'delivered energy'. You don't get something for nothing of course!

On a side note, I think Naudin's work is to be commended however I get the impression he does not spend enough time investigating a concept (or at least summarising it) - it leaves you wondering if what he was working on had undiscovered potential. The M.E.G and Steorn replications come to mind.

 

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