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Author Topic: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?  (Read 30220 times)

Offline tbird

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pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« on: September 03, 2010, 02:19:17 PM »
hello all,

this patent is over 40 years old.  did it slip through the cracks for a reason?

this motor uses shields to cover and uncover PERMANENT MAGNETS.  no electrics are used.  unlike my first impression, this machine uses attraction rather than repulsion.

you can download this patent here...

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3469130.html

i've read this once.  so far, i haven't been able to find a reason why it won't work.  on the other hand, i can see where it could work better using the new materials available today that weren't available when the patent was granted.

has anyone found a reason for it not to work or can see a flaw?

tom

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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2010, 02:13:03 PM »
i heard one time that if no one has a comment it's because they know everything about the subject or they don't know enough to ask a question.  i wonder which applies  here.

i will say with the speed control included in the patent, it makes the overall machine feel too complex.  let's study it without the speed control.

the inventor's use of attraction for rotation is the most curious part for me.  he uses the stators separately to advance the rotor in 22.5 degree steps.  he does this with separate cams, one for each side of the rotor.  this means that even though the rotor magnets are located at the same place on the rotor, the shields (relative to the rotor magnets) uncover the stator magnets at different times.  the stator magnets on one stator are 22.5 degrees offset to the stator magnets of the other stator.  his thinking seems to be that the attraction of 2 magnets to each other is stronger than the attraction of 1 magnet to the metal shield.

does anybody have experience with this?

tom

« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 03:06:04 PM by tbird »

Offline lwh

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 02:45:09 AM »
i heard one time that if no one has a comment it's because they know everything about the subject or they don't know enough to ask a question.  i wonder which applies  here.

In my case it's the latter. ;D

I don't know why the other readers here haven't pitched in with some opinions yet.  Maybe it's the weather.  You know, just one of those things. 

I must admit though, I didn't go look at the patent at first because I just couldn't be bothered trying to decipher that sort of stuff.  Maybe others are the same.  I was also turned off by the mere mentioning of 'shielding', as it brings out the cynic in me.  Just like seeing patents of free-energy devices does too, come to think of it. 

I tend to assume if the thing works it won't get patented, and that the more complex a device or system is, the higher chance there is that the patent applicant has tricked themselves into thinking the unworkable will work.  Fancy pictures and jargon just don't cut the mustard, and patents are often full of them.  Seems to me a person can patent almost any bullshit if it's presented the right way, as long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's previous bullshit.  If it works, he should have built it, or at least enough of it to prove the concept, otherwise it's just a theory, and in theory, pretty much anything's possible.  So... 

Sorry if I'm being too skeptical.  And I'm not having a go at you in any way for posting about it, that's what this place is for.  The patent might not have been seen by most people here before and could be worth exploring in greater detail or prove useful in other ways, who knows.

At the moment though, I, for one, am more inclined to just write this off as yet another variation on the same old 'pull some magical shielding out of unicorn's arse and get the pixies to help you align the magnets just right and it'll work' trick. 

The only real contribution I can think to make is to suggest you or someone else draw up a simplified diagram of the patented devices essential elements, showing how they're supposed to interact, to make it easier for others to give an opinion on whether they think it'll work or not.   

And sorry if this isn't the kind of response you were looking for.  Your thread not getting any replies reminded me how much the anonymous, consumerist, no obligation, drive-by aspect of the internet sucks sometimes and I just felt like trying to do something to counter it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 02:45:09 AM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 06:06:51 PM »
I may be way off here as I only took a brief look at the patent but as soon as I got to the part where they mentioned using iron or soft metal as a 'shield' I gave up reading further.  To my knowledge iron and other similar metals do not shield magnetic fields.  In the case of iron it will extend the field if it's in contact or close to a magnet.  Seeing that as a basic flaw in their theory I didn't go any further. 

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2010, 01:08:39 AM »
if this works, i'll do the other 3 pages of drawings too.

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2010, 01:08:39 AM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2010, 01:12:36 AM »
looks like it worked.  here is the next page.

tom

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2010, 01:18:13 AM »
...and the next

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2010, 01:18:13 AM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2010, 01:21:51 AM »
there is still 1 more showing part of the speed control.  i'll forego that for now.  this is the last of the drawings.

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2010, 01:44:25 AM »
Quote
I must admit though, I didn't go look at the patent at first because I just couldn't be bothered trying to decipher that sort of stuff.  Maybe others are the same.  I was also turned off by the mere mentioning of 'shielding', as it brings out the cynic in me.  Just like seeing patents of free-energy devices does too, come to think of it.

iwh,

thanks for your reply.  you are right, i didn't give the readers a fair chance.  i know patents are the last thing i want to read.  at least the pics are here to have a look at.

as for the shielding, i'll pick that up more when i can get back to the other post.

meanwhile, i'll try to put the written part of the patent in plain english, at least as i understand it.  hope it doesn't take too long.

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2010, 01:44:25 AM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2010, 01:49:05 AM »
e2matrix,

i won't get too deep now, but something to think about, saturation and new vs. old material.  remember, this thing is 40+ years old.

let me work on the written part for now, then we'll get with it.

thanks!!

tom

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2010, 03:03:12 PM »
let's start with a parts list.

part number      detail            

10................................................complete housing as shown in fig1
11................................................right half end plate (part of assy 19)
12................................................bearing cover for output shaft (right side)
13................................................left half end plate (part of assy 18)
14................................................output shaft bearing neck
15................................................bolts holding the 2 halves of the split case
16................................................left side flange for bolts 15
17................................................right side flange for bolts 15
18................................................left half of split casing
19................................................right half of split casing
20................................................recess in 18 and 19 for mounting stator
21................................................shoulder in 18 for stator mounting (left side)
22................................................shoulder in 19 for stator mounting (right side)
23................................................right side stator
24................................................mounting bolts for right side stator
25................................................right side output shaft bearing flange (part of stator 23)
26................................................recess for flange 25 (right side)
27................................................bearing set in stator 23 (part of assy 23) right side
28................................................output shaft bearing, inner right side
29................................................output shaft bearing, outer right side
30................................................spacer between output shaft bearings, right side
31................................................left side stator
32................................................mounting bolts for left side stator
33................................................left side output shaft bearing flange (part of stator 31)
34................................................recess for flange 33 (left side)
35................................................bearing set in stator 31 (part of assy 31) left side
36................................................output shaft bearing, outer left side
37................................................output shaft bearing, inner left side
38................................................spacer between output shaft bearings, left side
40................................................output (power) shaft
41................................................reduced end of output shaft for bearing
42................................................recess in right side end plate for excess output shaft
43................................................bearing sleeve, left side
44................................................output shaft splines
45................................................threads for retaining nut
46................................................rotor
47................................................axial hub for rotor
48................................................key for rotor hub (fig.1)
49................................................keyway for rotor hub key (fig.2)
50................................................set screw for hub key (fig.3)
51................................................magnetically responsive block, right side (soft iron or steel)
52................................................magnetically responsive block, left side (soft iron or steel)
53................................................non-magnetic rotor counterweight
54................................................aluminum-nickel-cobalt alloy stator magnet, right side
55................................................aluminum-nickel-cobalt alloy stator magnet, left side
56................................................exposed face of stator magnets (both sides)
57................................................upper flange covering for stator magnet
58................................................lower flange covering for stator magnet
59................................................exposed side area of stator magnets
60................................................offset angle to form guide for shield assy.
61................................................flanges (attached to wings 62) that travel in groove made by 60
62................................................wings attached to shield 63 (covers 59)
63................................................shields (sufficiently thick as to hold and close or contain entirely the magnetic flux fields)
64................................................actuating rods (or bars) attached to Shields 63
65................................................bracket rod 64 rides in
66................................................cam, left side
67................................................notch in cam 66
68................................................cam, right side
69................................................notch in cam68
70................................................yoke bracket (provides a guide & support for end of shield rod 64)
71................................................bolts for holding yoke bracket 70 in place
72................................................dependent legs (part of yoke bracket 70) which straddle cams 66 & 68
73................................................square guide opening in yoke bracket 70 for rod 64
73'...............................................interval grooves in 73 for guiding rod 64
73"..............................................roller on the inner end of rod 64 engaging the peripheries of the cams 66 & 68
74................................................coil springs to keep constant pressure on roller 73" to stay engaged with cams 66 & 68
75................................................annular flange to secure spring 74 to rod 64

76-104 are speed control parts.  if we get that far along to need a control for the speed, i'll id them.

this has been a good exercise for me.  as you can tell from one of my earlier post, i was thinking the rotor had magnets too.  i was wrong.  only the stators have magnets.

hope this helps.

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2010, 03:03:12 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2010, 03:24:25 PM »
Quote
I may be way off here as I only took a brief look at the patent but as soon as I got to the part where they mentioned using iron or soft metal as a 'shield' I gave up reading further.  To my knowledge iron and other similar metals do not shield magnetic fields.  In the case of iron it will extend the field if it's in contact or close to a magnet.  Seeing that as a basic flaw in their theory I didn't go any further.

e2matrix,

i think you would be right if the iron you used was not thick enough and was saturated.  then any excess flux could be felt on the opposite side of where the magnet is.

you can do a simple test to satisfy yourself.  take 2 magnets and a small amount of transformer steel (something magnetic).  place 1 magnet with north side to metal.  now take the other magnet and approach (with north facing metal) the metal from the other side of the first magnet.  we know without the metal between, the 2 magnets would repel strongly.  with the metal, this force is reduced and if thick enough, the 2nd magnet will stick to the metal too.  in order for this to happen the flux from the 1st magnet must not be seen by the 2nd magnet.

give it a try and let us know what you find.

tom

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2010, 06:06:30 PM »
hi all,

there is another saying where i come from.  "no news is good news."  since no one has blasted this machine, i guess no one can find a fault.  GREAT!!

of course i'm just trying to get attention.  let's have a serious look at this machine.

in order for this machine to work, the stator magnets must be shielded and unshielded.  the inventor claims...

"1.  Means for shielding and unshielding a permanent magnet of the bar type including a casing formed of a material capable of shielding and containing the magnetic flux field of said magnet and completely encasing the magnet except for one end pole thereof, and a shield of similar material moveable on and at least partially off of said pole and said casing to encase and unencase said pole and the magnetic flux field."

is this possible?  i think so.  a problem may come as a result of this.  other than the face that the rotor is exposed to, thickness of material shouldn't matter.  however, if this thickness for the shield prevents the rotor material to be close enough to feel the pull of the magnet (when uncovered), then the main force for rotation won't exist.  from here, we are lead to how much force is there?  the design of the cam that moves the shield should not have a problem uncovering the magnet, but covering it could be a problem.  the sharp accent the cover assy. has to make and the spring tension it has to overcome, in my mind, could be considerable.  in section 4 the inventor says....

"In the operation of the machine, the rotor 46 is given an initial degree of rotation as through the exposed end of the power shaft 40,...."

this falls in line with what we were just talking about.  does the unit self start?  if no, as the last quote suggest, why?  does the rotor have to have momentum to move the shield out to cover the magnet?

the magnets (54 & 55) and rotor block material (51 & 52) are located far out from the hub with the cams (66 & 68).  this will give leverage to the attraction between the magnet and block material.   is it enough to make the shield movement easy? or at all?

i'll hold up here so others can add their 2 cents worth.

tom

Offline tbird

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2010, 02:26:42 PM »
hi all,

i've been studying the patent and now see the cam is not as sharp as i first thought.  it looks like it takes about 80 degrees to complete an uncover to cover segment of one rev.  a couple of things might help make this easier.  1.) make the rotor diameter larger.  this would give the rotor more leverage.  2.) enlarge the 80 degrees to maybe 135 degrees.  i think this would have more than one stator magnet uncovered (or at least uncovering) at once.  that might even be a good thing as long as the attraction was kept ahead of the rotor.

any body know enough about this machine to make a comment or ask a question yet?

tom

Offline NTesla

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Re: pat. 3469130 Jines, J.E. Magnetic Motor, does it work?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2010, 12:13:25 PM »
I know for a fact - through my own experiments - that you can overcome magnetism (I won't use the word 'shield' because it is inappropriate in this context). You can take - for example - a peice of ferrite material of suitable thickness and place it against a magnet of suitable strength and then take another magnet and bring the same pole closer to the ferrite material - you will reach a point where the distance between the ferrite material and the other magnet results in an apparent 'neutral point' where attraction and repulsion are cancelled out somewhat. This is because the proximity of the ferrite material combined with the opposite magnets repulsion results in a neutralising of the attraction and repulsion effects. Admittedly this point of neutrality is very small, but it is worth investigating.

 

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