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Availbale Products, Material- and Service suppliers => Do It Yourself => Topic started by: z.monkey on August 26, 2010, 02:52:33 AM

Title: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on August 26, 2010, 02:52:33 AM
http://fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/energy-news/?page_id=976
 
This is an interesting article on magnet motors.  Sometimes called
Homopolar, or Monopole Motors they operate on the principle of
magnetic repulsion alone, no fuel involved.  The state of this
technology is experimental, with mainly Garage Engineers working
on the problem.  You might wonder why industry has not adopted
this technology, but we already know the answer to that, oil.
 
When this technology is developed to an industrial state it will
supplant other methods of motive power.  So, naturally the people
that support existing technologies will resist this technology.
Developing technologies like this could be seen as "Maverick" or
"Cavalier", but I think it is our responsibility.  So, what are
we waiting for?  Waiting for the oil to run out first?  If we don't
have viable technologies to replace oil, before it runs out, then
there is going to be a major crisis when it does.  I like hot
showers, and am not waiting for a crisis to embrace new technologies.
 
I am toying with a new concept called "Cooking with Free Energy"
Its sort of a vehicle which combines revolutionary new ideas with
something that is familiar and comfortable, like food.  Basically
we build a new technology, and then use it to cook food.  Like a
magnet motor running a Daimag alternator, which powers a hotplate,
on which we cook a pot of Frejoles Del Fuego...
 
Now that's Cooking with Free Energy...
 
Fukin Magnets...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on August 31, 2010, 10:25:21 PM
This thing has been festering in my brain for probably 20 years.  I have been fascinated with magnets since I was a little monkey, but I was in my early 20's when I was introduced to the idea of a motor which operated on the concept of bucking magnets.  It seems logical enough that you could make some tricky arrangement of repelling magnets that creates force in a singular direction.  I have more time to draw pretty pictures lately.  Also I have a motive now.  The Diamag Alternator needs something to drive it.  I was thinking about a wind impeller, but big business is all over that wind thing.  So lets go the other way, more exotic, and esoteric.  The Bucking Magnet Motor is just the thing.

First and foremost I don't want to copy anyone, especially designs that don't work.  If you punch "Magnet Motor" into Teh Yuo Tubez you can see a zillion and a half experimental magnet motors made from CD-ROM disks and piles of Neo-Mags.  I don't want to do that either.  I don't want to make a demonstrator model, a proof of concept, or any sort of half-assed prototype.  I want a Magnet Motor that works, as in providing useful power.  I have seen a few that do spin on their own, but haven't seen any spinning a load, and providing significant output power.  There are some others that I am not sure about, like Lutec, and Yildiz, they may have it figured out, but I don't know what is inside their devices.

Observer Lady:  "That motor is repulsive!"

Z.Monkey:  "Yes Ma'am, absolutely repulsive!"

Think of Bruce DePalma's N-Machine.  Not literally, but figuratively.  "N-Machine"? Homopolar Motor? Monopole Motor?  These things can't work!  There is no such thing as mono-polarity.  Hermetic law teaches that there is always polarity, for every plus there is a minus, for every top there is a bottom.  But, what I wasn't seeing here is we don't need to use both poles.  We can have one side working, and the other side just pointed off into space.  Seems like an abomination, ignore one of the poles?  Oh No!  We can't do that!  What will it think?  LOL!

I don't want to hurt the South Pole's feelings, but were not using him here.  In honor of Bruce DePalma we're going to use the North Poles, to make a new N-Machine.  Sorry, not copying him either...

OK, back to repulsiveness, we need to maximize the repulsiveness of our new motor.  How does we do this?  Magnets repel each other the strongest when like poles are directly facing each other.  So, this is the first caveat to our design.  The like poles of the magnets need to face each other, but we also need to provide the vector of movement.  If the magnets are mounted flush with the periphery of the stator (the moving part) then the vector of movement would be towards the axle of the stator.  Is that going to provide motion?  No, but will act as a brake locking the stator in a position.  To make the stator move the vector of motion needs to be toward one side or the other.  We need the magnets to be canted (angled).  So, we already figured out that a zero degree cant is not going to work.  Likewise we don't want to swing the cant around to 90 degrees either because the magnets would no longer be facing each other.  The cant needs to be somewhere in between.  So, I spent several days drawing different cant angles looking for the magic combination.  The drawing below is revision 6, so yeah, I explored this pretty thoroughly.  I tried 30 degree, and 60 degrees, and combinations, at one point I was considering a bicanted design that was 45 degrees on the stator and 60 degrees on the driver.  At that point I realized that I have made an error drawing the driver cants, and that they also needed to be 45 degrees.  So the result is a 45 degree cant on the magnets...

Another thing that I have seen in magnet motors is symmetrical designs that stall for that reason.  What I mean by symmetrical design is there are an equal number of magnets on the driver, and the stator, which are arranged in symmetrical increments.  While these designs have all the push, at certain places around the periphery, they have no push in the sweet spot between the fields where they stall.  A stall is something that I do not want to experience.  Between each magnet is a sweet spot where the field from one magnet is interacting with the magnet adjacent to it.  A symmetrical design can fall into this sweet spot, and stall.  To mitigate the risk of stalls I am making a uniform asymmetrical design.  Uniform asymmetrical means that it is regular in its irregularity.  The diameter of the stator is smaller than the diameter of the driver.  We can put more magnets on the driver than we can put on the stator.  This is necessary in that we need to minimize the possibility of a stall.  Having more magnets on the driver helps, but is not the answer here.  What we need are different spacing patterns between the stator and the driver.  This way when some of the magnets are passing through the transition space the other magnets are pushing the magnets traversing the magnetic field transition space.  The way I did this was to use different spacing between the magnets on the stator, and the magnets on the driver.  On the stator the magnet spacing is 18 degrees.  On the driver the magnet spacing is 15 degrees.  This breaks down into 4 quadrants with equal properties.  Each quadrant has 5 stator magnets, of which 2 are in transition, and the other 3 are pushing.  Each quadrant has 6 driver magnets...

So, in summary, this is a Uniform Asymmetrical Bucking Magnet Motor (UABMM) design.  The Stator is 6 inches outside diameter and holds 20 NIB magnets on 18 degree centers.  The Driver is 6.5 inches inside diameter and holds 24 NIB magnets on 15 degree centers.  The Cant (Angle) of the magnets is 45 degrees relative to the vertical axis through the center of the stator.  And, of course, the north side of the magnet is the business end, so the north poles are pointed out from the stator, and in from the driver.  The NIB magnets are a K&J Part Number B884DCS, which have a countersunk hole for a #6 screw.

OKz, have fun with that one, I know I will...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: nievesoliveras on August 31, 2010, 10:54:01 PM
Hi @zmonkey

Maybe this photos from a project one guy was doing about the perendev serve you.
With your schematic and those visuals I think it is easier for the replicators.

Jesus
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: ramset on August 31, 2010, 11:06:44 PM
Fellahs
I don't know if its just my computer ?
But I believe you posted a large pic and now I have to scroll back and forth to read the text.
I think you can resize the pic and fix this scrolling issue?

Chet
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 01, 2010, 12:12:12 AM
There fixed the picture Ramset...

Nievesoliveras, Perendev is very close, but the UABMM is different.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 01, 2010, 02:00:28 AM
I saw the first picture you posted and thought that were equal.
But now looking at it again it has some diferences.

Jesus
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: XS-NRG on September 01, 2010, 02:33:41 AM
i know somebody who has also build a design like this in the past.
Actually he build several.
He spent the big bucks on having the parts CNC'd out of plexiglass.
It was looking fantastic but it did not work.
And i know why, but it seems the rest of the world still thinks that magnets deliver energy...
I guess it is a result of what they see when they move them but they do not understand the mechanism behind all of that.


Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 01, 2010, 01:45:57 PM
There are many people ho claim to have working magnet motors.  Perendev, Yildiz, Lutec, and DePalma are a few.  I plan on cutting the parts myself, so it limits the cost to materials.  Granted the magnets (44) will be around $75, and yes it is a labor intensive project...

I had planned on using an overdriven wind impeller to drive the Diamag Alternator, but this is so much more fun...

I can always fall back to using a coal fired steam turbine to drive it, LOL!

Edit:  There is a difference that is not readily apparent in in my drawing.  The surface area of the magnets is large compared to the depth of the magnets.  Like in the pictures of the Perendev Replica, those magnets look like pencils, mine are 1/2" square and 1/4" deep...

Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 01, 2010, 04:03:03 PM
For the person that asked me if I had the other parts of the perendev.
Here is what I got:

Jesus
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 09, 2010, 04:24:17 AM
So, do you have that magnet motor design ready yet?

LOL!

So I got a few things that will help...

The Rotary Table will clamp into my Bitmoore Vise and let us cut
precision metal circles.  Still waiting for that one...
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-inch-rotary-table-and-clamping-kit-98077.html

Then got some new mills.  They are M42-Cobalt Steel bits so we shouldn't
have any trouble with aluminum plates...

1/4" Mill Drill...
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRVSM?PACACHE=000000153227407

1/8" Side Mill...
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRVSM?PACACHE=000000153227448

Then got some aluminum stock...

8"x8"x1/2" Plate...
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRVSM?PACACHE=000000153227397

8"x8"x1/4" Plate....
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRVSM?PACACHE=000000153227558

Then also the shaft arbor to connect the UABMM to the Diamag Alternator...

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=3ZN04&op=search&Ntt=3ZN04&N=0&sst=subset

The only thing that I haven't ordered is the magnets.  I'm gonna wait till we
have the UABMM cut before I order the magnets...

I got the winding slots in the Diamag Alternator finished last Saturday.  I spent
a couple days this week filing the winding races and cleaning up the bores
on the Diamag Alternator.  Now I need to debur, degrease, mark, and laminate
the steel plates.  Then we can assemble the plate stack, wind the coils, and
install the Neo-Dia-Mags...

The UABMM is waiting on the Rotary Table.  This piece in conjunction with
the Bitmoore Vise makes my modest setup a 4 Axis Mill.  And Iz got some
serious bitz now....
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 11, 2010, 01:38:11 PM
OK, got the rotary table...
Now its a 4 axis mill...
Lets shred some metal...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: khabe on September 11, 2010, 09:47:43 PM
OK, got the rotary table...
Now its a 4 axis mill...
Lets shred some metal...

To be honest  - bit closer to  4 axis mill it will be when rotary axis is horisontal  8)
cheers,
khabe
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 13, 2010, 01:08:42 PM
This is a budget mill.  I don't have the room to run the rotary table vertically.

Its a tabletop 12 speed, 1/2 horsepower drill press...
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-speed-bench-top-drill-press-44836.html

With a milling vise, the X and Y Axis reach is 7" x 8"...
http://www.harborfreight.com/5-inch-drill-press-milling-vise-94276.html

The Z axis is the table and its range is 10 inches.  So I have a small space
for working.  If I had a full mill, yes it would be better to have the rotary
table vertical, and cut the cants with an end mill.  But here I don't have
the space, so I'll cut the cants from the side with a side mill, and then
file out the corners.

You have to look at the cost difference involved.  My "Mini-Mill" cost around
$300 to build.  Compare that to a cheap mill...
http://www.harborfreight.com/two-speed-variable-bench-mill-drill-machine-44991.html

Or a little better mill...
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-2-half-horsepower-heavy-duty-milling-drilling-machine-33686.html

Semi-Pro Mill...
http://www.harborfreight.com/vertical-milling-machine-40939.html

Or an Industrial Mill...
http://www.harborfreight.com/variable-speed-turret-head-milling-machine-with-9-inch-x-49-inch-table-38733.html

And that last one is cheap compared to American, Japanese, and German products...

It would be great to have CNC control too, but that is also lots of bux.
Its monkey controlled...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 17, 2010, 02:00:03 PM
I had a little problem with the rotary table.  I need a center point mount to make circles.  The bottom of the table has a M6 screw which secures the bottom bearing plate.  But, the threads only reach up about half way, and the remaining bore is smaller than the diameter of the screw.  So, first I found some long hardened M6 screws (grade 8 ), and then carefully looked at how the table comes together.  The iron rotating part is solid and there is a channel at the end of the shaft which holds the bearing.  There is a bearing plate which holds the other side of the bearing.  The M6 screw holds this bearing plate to the table on the bottom side.  So I figure I need to bore out the remaining hole to accommodate the long clamping screw in the center.  I only removed about 15 mils on each side of the bore, and the long M6 screw fits great.  This will clamp the aluminum pieces on to the table for making the circles.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 17, 2010, 02:51:58 PM
If something goes wrong with your table setup, you can buy or build an adjustable circle maker.

Jesus
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 17, 2010, 04:35:16 PM
Thanks Jesus,
We always need options...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: wattsup on September 18, 2010, 01:43:18 AM
@z.monkey

I would like to applaud your building effort and hope it pans out well. Your design touches many points of a design I had done a good while back that you can see here.

http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Wattsups%27%20stuff/dual-stator-magwheel/

Just click on the jpg file.

Maybe this can be another idea since it shows three magnet layers with only the center one in rotation. Being in the center, the inner and outer magnets can act on both sides of the center rotating magnets.

As well I am happy to see you magnets are angled to use only half of one polarity to provide the directionality. Can't wait to see how it goes.

Keep well and good work indeed.

wattsup
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 18, 2010, 02:25:33 AM
Thanx, Wattsup...

Your design is symmetrical, yes, I addressed that.
Are you up to making a new one?  Just change
the angles a bit, LOL!  I know, these are lots of work
but maybe we can build it better...

Thanx again...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 18, 2010, 02:58:29 AM
Name change...

I think the stator, the center spinning part, should be called a repellor...

The method of drive is repulsion, so it is repelled, hence its the Repellor...

uulgh... Marketing...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: wattsup on September 18, 2010, 07:04:21 AM
@z.monkey

If you are the repellor, then everything must move away from you, and not you move away from everything. If you move away from everything, then you are the repellee. So you in fact have a repellor and a repellee. The repellee is being repelled by the repellor. (lol) But that would sound too confusing. That's why I think it's always best to use something original like the words "stator" and "rotor". Just play'in around with them fun words.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 20, 2010, 01:15:48 PM
I got to spend most of Sunday in the Metal Shop...

The 1/4" Drill Mill is very aggressive.  It work great for spotting and drilling, but for milling is probably too much for my "Mini-Mill".  The 1/8" side mill does a lot better for milling.  I can already tell this is going to be a long process.  This plate is 1/4" thick, the Stator and Driver Plate is 1/2" thick.

I probably spend a couple hours marking the plate.  Then the rest of the day erasing the markings with the Heavy Metal Eraser.  I had another problem with the Rotary Table.  When I started milling the curves I noticed the table was slipping.  I had to drill another couple holes in the plate and add auxiliary clamps close to the edge of the table.  This works good as long as the cut doesn't get too aggressive.  The mills cut great as long as you don't overload them.  Overload involves a whole lot of shaking, doesn't make pretty cuts...

As far as the name, I guess we stick with Driver and Stator for now, looking for something better tho...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 21, 2010, 03:36:43 AM
I live on the 90 degree learning curve...

After some reflection I realized that I have better Z Axis control than the table.  I can use the depth stop on the chuck feed to set the Z Axis dimension.  This way I don't have to move the table to control the Z Axis dimension.  This was So Totally cleaner than adjusting the table.  Basically you lock all the clamps down, and rotate the table.  When you make full circle adjust the Z Axis dimension, then make another circle...

Wow!  Way mo betta cuts today...

Fik Ja!
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: nievesoliveras on September 21, 2010, 03:41:20 AM
Looking good!
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 27, 2010, 02:13:43 AM
Got some more time in the metal shop...

The mounting plate is rough cut, now I have to debur it...

And make it pretty...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on October 09, 2010, 02:43:31 PM
Now I have to fabricate the motor plate.

I used the same size plate 8" x 8" x 1/4", and replicated my UABMM drawing on the face of the plate.  I made the marks with a carbide pencil and then colored them with a marker.  This way the markings are durable during the machine process.

Back to the metal shop...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on October 10, 2010, 06:33:27 AM
Damn iz tired...

Got the motor plate outside, and alignment holes cut...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: nievesoliveras on October 10, 2010, 04:46:26 PM
Did you change the metal plate for plywood?
It seems a plywood circle.

Jesus
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: Thaelin on October 10, 2010, 08:06:22 PM
Jesus:
   Just goggle ::)  ams 4027 and see what kind of plywood you come up with. Its a grade of industrial sheet aluminum actually.

thay
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on October 10, 2010, 09:24:51 PM
Yeah, I'm industrial now.  I didn't use the flash in the picture, and the plate seems kinda brown.  About 12 years ago I made an alternator with plywood, maybe you have seen it. The Bicycle Wheel Alternator...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on October 10, 2010, 11:42:18 PM
It looks more like aluminum in this picture...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: nievesoliveras on October 11, 2010, 01:47:21 AM
Thank you @thaelin. Thank you @zmonkey.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on December 22, 2010, 03:03:03 AM
Full Scale UABMM-Large.jpg is here...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=450
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: Arthurs on January 06, 2011, 12:33:32 AM
The result? Look forward to! ! !
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on January 18, 2011, 12:46:33 PM
Pardon the delay, I have been having machine troubles...

My milling table suffered a breakdown.  Its a cross slide table, so there is hardware that moves the table.  The table screws have a keeper point which is on the moving table part, and a reference mounting point which is fixed to the base.  The reference mounting point is basically a nut.  The keeper is a rotating joint which determines the alignment of the table along the axis of the positioning screw.  The original hardware that was this keeper, rotating joint was eroding very quickly.  This resulted in a very large amount of lash on the positioning screws.  The more I used the tool, the greater the lash became, making it more difficult to use the tool, and would ultimately cause mechanical failure...

So, whats to do?  Buy a new, better quality table?  $300?  Nah...  Buy another same quality table and use it until it fails, then toss it?  Nah...  Its a cool table, I like it.  We should use scrapyard ingenuity to make it betters...

I had to let this fester in my brain to figure out the right materials.  I ultimately used some scrap iron hanging around in the shop.  I didn't have enough room inside the existing table to add the shaft collars, so I had to extend the keepers outside of the tables.  The iron scraps that I found had some existing holes that could be utilized.  I cut the pieces into appropriate lengths, and added more holes as needed.  Then bolted everything together with 3/8 inch machine screws.  The shaft collars mount on the screw shaft on both sides of the new keepers.  This improved the linear lash considerably.  I am also going to add thrust bearings on both sides of the new keepers.  I want to keep everything happy around the new keepers...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 09, 2011, 07:43:34 PM
I  got a snow day, so I am starting to mill the UABMM plate.

I am using 2x4 for a sacrificial block.  The center of the plate is bolted to the 2x4 block.  Then the 2x4 block clamps into the cross slide vise.  I align each cant (magnet cutout) with the table edge, and then use the cross slides on the table to work down the cant.  After the cant is cut out I rotate the plate to the next cant position, and do it again.  This is going a lot faster than I expected.  I am cutting everything about 30 to 50 mils wide so I can finish them very precisely with a file.  I want to keep the clearances tight in the cants...

Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 09, 2011, 08:04:24 PM
Making chips...

Got any salsa?
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 09, 2011, 10:43:42 PM
So, in around 3 hours I got more than half way around...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 10, 2011, 12:29:47 PM
OK, now the driver ring is cutout.  Next we go 'round again and cut the stator disk.  Next step on the driver ring is to file down the cants and reliefs.  Then I need to drill holes for the screws that secure the magnets.  Then also tap the holes for the magnets.  I am going to use a #6-32 countersunk screw to secure the magnets to the driver ring and the stator disk.  Don't forget the Loctite when doing the final assembly.  The NIB magnets are a K&J Part Number B884DCS...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 12, 2011, 02:20:00 PM
OK, got the driver ring cleaned up and fitted on the DiaMag6...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 13, 2011, 01:54:10 AM
Working down the stator disk now...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: broli on February 13, 2011, 11:10:16 AM
This is what should define this forum, great progress. It's rare to see the evolution of an idea beyond words on this forum but this thread is a good example of it.

As for the build, is there a reason you went for aluminum and not say plexiglass or so.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 13, 2011, 12:44:53 PM
As for the build, is there a reason you went for aluminum and not say plexiglass or so.
Lexan (Plexiglass) cracks easy when you drill it.  A Lexan panel would have to be laser milled, and you can't make threads with a laser.  Wood is too soft, can't make the dimensional tolerances.  I need light weight and rigid which aluminum does well.  Also this is not general aluminum, its an alloy designed for use in aircraft.  This alloy (AMS4027) exceptionally light and rigid.  It has traces of Magnesium, Silicon, Copper, and Chromium in it.  So, in the end having rigid pieces and maintaining dimensional tolerances is my motivation for using this particular alloy.  It wouldn't make a very good motor if it was all floppy, and prone to cracking.  Iron (Steel) is another exceptionally rigid material, but it is ferrous, and I didn't want to throw another magnetic variable in there...

Another note on Vertical Milling.  The cross slide table that I am using is pretty floppy.  It doesn't do side cutting very well, lots of buffeting due to slop in the cross slides.  So, I had to resort to using Vertical Miliing, which is similar to drilling, except we're using a mill instead of a drill, and we have the precision positioning capability of the cross slide table.  I am positioning the table, then milling a hole.  Then I move the table about 80 mils, and cut the next hole which overlaps the first hole, cutting the webs that would normally separate two side by side holes.  You can't do that with a drill bit, held by hand.  Basically I have realized that I need a way better table.  Looking at a Palmgren table now...

http://www.palmgren.com/compound-milling-table-18-in-mtc18/

With an actual Milling Table I can do way mo-betta side cutting, which is a lot faster.  It all is dependent on the stability of the mount.  If your mount is floppy then you are going to get a lot of buffeting which makes butt ugly cuts.  With a rock solid mount all the energy of the mill is exerted on the cut, which makes nice clean, fine cuts.  It makes the process a lot cleaner, and faster, albeit you have to spend mo bux on the tool...

Buying high quality tools is always worth it in the end.  All the frustration that I have suffered with the current cross slide table could have been avoided if I had bought a better table in the beginning.  Granted this table is about 4 times as expensive.  That more than makes up for having to redesign the current table, and all the angst associated with it...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 13, 2011, 09:31:11 PM
Just finished the rough cut on the stator disk.  Now I need to clean it up, drill the center hole out to 3/8" for the shaft arbor, and drill some weight relief holes...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 14, 2011, 02:45:38 AM
OK, good progress this week.  The UABMM has been fabricated.  I got the stator cleaned up and all the holes punched.  When I was finally done the stator was very warm, and felt soothing on my tired hands.  I was able to make all the cuts amazingly close to the markings on this one.  Maximum finished tolerance on the cants is conservatively close at around +/- 10 mils.  I'll spend a couple of days measuring, and verifying, but I am sure this is the most precise piece of metal (stator disk) I have ever fabricated.  Then I fitted everything together, and it is totally sweet...

Looks like I need to get some magnets on order...

Woot!~>  \m/___(0.o)___\m/
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: broli on February 14, 2011, 07:45:27 PM
Congrats, I bet all the crap you endured was worth it. Irregardless of working or not, you have gained a huge amount of experience and knowledge that no armchair could ever give  :P .
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 15, 2011, 01:49:56 AM
knowledge that no armchair could ever give  :P .
Yeah, I prefer a shop stool...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 18, 2011, 01:38:42 PM
So, Broli I agree that new energy machines don't build themselves.  And you are not going to find off-the-shelf parts to simply assemble one either.  Get the tools, get the raw materials and build it.  A lot of the stuff that I have put into this machine came off-the-shelf, but the critical working parts had to be fabricated.

Someone here has the name Dream-Think-Build.  Yeah, that's pretty much it...

I got the magnets on order Tuesday.  I needed to get a #6-32 tap, and a tube of Loctite.  Got those.    Still need to get a box of #6-32 countersunk machine screws.  I've been inspecting the parts and there are some adjustments to be made.  I am going to go ahead and bottom out the relief cuts.  This gives me a little extra clearance between the magnets.  Then if I need to tighten the clearance I can use shim washers.  I want to err on the wide side in regards to the magnets.  Don't want my fancy Neo-Mags smashing into each other...

This picture is from Feb. 5, at the end of that ice storm that glazed everyone in...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: Bizzy on February 18, 2011, 06:24:43 PM
Working down the stator disk now...
Wow I appluad your skill and inventiveness. I tried a similar design but not nearly involved as yours.
Bizzy
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 18, 2011, 09:29:19 PM
Thanks Bizzy,

With enough brainpowers we can crack this nut...  As with any engineering problem, it just a matter of applying an appropriate amount of engineering hours.  I've been conceptualizing this for a couple of decades.  It was just last August that got the impetus to finally draw it.  Now I am less than a week away from test...

Very exciting...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: Bizzy on February 18, 2011, 09:35:48 PM
Thanks Bizzy,

With enough brainpowers we can crack this nut...  As with any engineering problem, it just a matter of applying an appropriate amount of engineering hours.  I've been conceptualizing this for a couple of decades.  It was just last August that got the impetus to finally draw it.  Now I am less than a week away from test...

Very exciting...
Yes very exciting indeed. Like I mentioned I went down this same raod myself so I am very interested to hear about your results.
Bizzy
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 22, 2011, 12:28:43 PM
I've finishing up the relief cut adjustments while I was waiting for the magnets to arrive.  Also, added a more weight reduction holes.  I got the magnets on Monday afternoon.  This morning I started the process of drilling and tapping the holes to secure the magnets.  The stator disk can be drilled, and tapped from the outside (easier).  The driver ring has to be drilled, and tapped from the inside, which will be a lot more tricky.  I got a 90 degree drill chuck attachment to do this.  Got two magnet mounting holes made so far, only 42 more to go...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: loosecannon on February 25, 2011, 06:13:43 AM
Zmonkey,  following this thread with much interest.  very cool build so far!
cant wait to see more.

i am curious about something.  i noticed that you are using bolts to locate/hold the outer driver disk in place.

are you concerned about interaction between the magnets on the stator and those bolts?

i am very much a newb when it comes to magnet motors, so please excuse my question if it is not an issue.
LC
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 25, 2011, 10:18:16 AM
Howdy LC,

The Driver Ring Pins are steel, and yeah there is a interference possibility.  The magnets are spaced around the entire periphery, while the driver pins are a comparatively small area of the total periphery.  Its an experimental device so anything is possible.  And there have been many times already where I have had to employ spin control, er uh, kludge on the fly.  I can make the Driver Ring Pins out of non-ferrous material like Brass if I need to...

When I make the next one I will probably change the Driver Ring mounting holes to the corners of the plate, like on the DiaMag6 mounting plate (large 1/2" bolts used for feet).  This would get the Driver Ring mounting holes away from the magnets, allow us to have more material (stronger) around the Driver Ring, and simplify the fabrication process.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 26, 2011, 02:35:21 PM
Back in the Metal Shop...

I am marking the Stator Disk for the magnet holes.  The magnets are going to be snug in the corner of the cant and the relief.  So, I want the holes centered in the plate, and a quarter inch away from the corner.  Set the caliper to 0.125 inches and scratch a line lengthwise down the cant, using the edge of the plate as a reference.  This is center of the plate.  Repeat for all the cants.  Then reset the caliper to 0.250 inches and scratch a line perpendicular to the center line, using the inside corner of the cant as a reference to guide the caliper.  Again, repeat for all the cants.

Now on each cross section we need to start the hole with a center punch.  I align the cant to where it is level in the jaws of the vise.  Then use the spring loaded to make a dimple at the intersection of the two markings.  make sure you have the punch right where you want it and give 3 punches.  If you put this dimple in the wrong place your hole will be in the wrong place.  If you do put the dimple in the wrong place you can use a flat faced punch, flatten the area, remark the area, and then try again.  When you are metal working you need to be able to correct mistakes, you know spin control, mo later...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 26, 2011, 02:37:52 PM
Getting a rhythm now, making progress..

Drill Hole, Tap Hole, Drill Hole, Tap Hole...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 26, 2011, 02:44:32 PM
Rhythm interrupted...

Snapped off a tap.  This is inevitable because there is a lot of stress on a tap.  And I was really trying to take it easy on this one.  This tap came from an Ace Hardware store.  It lasted 9 holes before it broke.  Fortunately it snapped above the hole, and I was able to unscrew it, saved the hole...

The second tap, uulgh, came from Harbor Freight.  It snapped the first time I used it.  And it snapped off in the hole.  I am hugely disappointed with the second tap.  I have to drive like ten miles to a Ace Hardware to get more taps.  Big Sigh...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: hydrocontrol on February 26, 2011, 03:12:06 PM
Rhythm interrupted...

Snapped off a tap.  This is inevitable because there is a lot of stress on a tap.  And I was really trying to take it easy on this one.  This tap came from an Ace Hardware store.  It lasted 9 holes before it broke.  Fortunately it snapped above the hole, and I was able to unscrew it, saved the hole...

The second tap, uulgh, came from Harbor Freight.  It snapped the first time I used it.  And it snapped off in the hole.  I am hugely disappointed with the second tap.  I have to drive like ten miles to a Ace Hardware to get more taps.  Big Sigh...

I have drilled and tapped hundreds of holes without breakage. The major key is lubrication and a good tap. A small amount of tap oil will keep the tap from binding. In place of tap oil you can use wd-40 or even vegetable oil.

Good project and good progess.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 26, 2011, 04:20:24 PM
Thanks Hydrocontrol,

On the way to the store it occurred to me that I am probably making the pilot hole a little small also.  I do have some thread cutting oil, and didn't even think to use it...

Doh!
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 27, 2011, 02:32:43 AM
I have snapped off another tap, and a drill bit.  My list of failed tools is getting long today...

Two holes are unusable, going with backup plan, gorilla glue...

The depth of the holes relative to the girth of the tap is a problem.  Lubrication helps, but when there are lateral stresses, like when it breaks through a hole into a angled wall, the frictional stresses are so great the tap snaps, and it is stuck like Adamantium fused with Unobtanium.  Ain't Mutha-Forkin' gonna move...

So, the Ultimate work around...  Gorilla Glue...

Just for a few parts mind you...  This is only for temporary use.  Experimental purposes only...

I may change my mounting strategy here, but really not sure where to go.  I'll try and finish this one as planned.

But it may be a kludge-a-matic-o-saurus-amongus, and it might not last long in test...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: loosecannon on February 27, 2011, 11:31:41 PM
sorry to hear about your woes.

ive drilled plenty of aluminum and ive broken off more than my share of bits and taps in it.

not sure if you are trying to use the mill when threading those holes, but i find it easier to use a cordless drill to tap holes. the mill didnt give me enough time to stop or back up before the tap broke. the cordless drill gave me more control. definitely use aluminum cutting fluid also.

depending on the hole size you are using, you might think about abandoning the tapping idea, and just use sheet metal screws.
if the pre-drill is the right size, and you use a bit of bee's wax or soap on the screws, they should go right in no problem.

the concern i have now is that the gorilla glue will throw off the balance of the stator because you will have no screw in two places.
you've spent so much time making this thing very balanced it would be a shame to have it wobble now.

i hope i have posted this in time, and you havent gone past the point of no return yet.
there may be a way for you to save those holes with the drill bit/ tap in them.

because you have stuck a ferrous metal into a non-ferrous metal, you may be able to use Alum to dissolve the drill bit.
mind you i have never tried this, but i have heard of it working.

here is a little write up for jewelry, but the same concepts apply.
at least its an avenue to pursue so you dont have to give up on them.
http://www.ehow.com/how_4999647_dissolve-broken-drill-bit.html

good luck with it!
LC
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 28, 2011, 02:37:05 AM
Howdy LC,

Yeah, using a hand drill for these holes and taps because I don't have a way to clamp the part under my mini mill.  Also I have generally used a hand drill for taps and unibits previously.

About the balance thing, there is a bit of the tap in there to make up the difference, and I also included as much of the screw as I could...

I used epoxy instead of gorilla glue on 2 magnets.

This is a tricky thing about the balance, there are many angles and holes.  But the majority of the mass is very light and the heavy (dense) parts are the magnets and the screws around the periphery.  This will hopefully mitigate my dimensional and density infractions, but also act as a flywheel.

I can already see that I'll be making more of these, and it may take several revisions to get it right...

Make it perfect on the first try?

I have yet to do that ever...

But Revision A is generally production worthy...

So, got all the magnets installed on the Stator today...

Making a movie, up in a bit...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 28, 2011, 02:48:50 AM
Finished Stator Disk movie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4UWZ29PWA4

Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 28, 2011, 03:13:52 AM
Mo betta movie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn5jOeaD4Fw
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: loosecannon on February 28, 2011, 06:55:49 AM
well it looks absolutely beautiful!

at this point, if the epoxy seemed to be secure enough, i might just epoxy all the magnets on to the outer ring to save lots of time and frustration.

seems like those will be even more difficult than the inner ring was.

good luck!
LC
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: tbird on February 28, 2011, 01:48:02 PM
hi z,

just a thought for your next build.  on the rotor, instead of tapping for the screws, why not just use a nut?  while the disk is on the rotating table for drilling out the excess weight, drill a hole under (1/8 to 1/4 inch should be enough meat to hold) each surface the magnets mount on.  then you can slide the nut in and screw together.  a drop of loctite (or a locknut) will keep it from going anywhere.

for the stator, five minute j b weld should hold the magnets nicely (no spinning force).  i use it to hold (no screws) my wind gen magnets to the rotor.  of course epoxy is also poured between and around each.  never had one come off.

also i noticed awhile back you called lexan and plexiglass the same thing.  they are not.  lexan is a polycarbonate resin thermoplastic.  plexiglass is  polymethyl methacrylate.  at this link...
 
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=37175

the fellow gives some tips on how to machine it.  good read.

lexan is very strong.  it is used to make bullet proof windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet-proof_glass) i use it for my windows on my boat.  a bit pricey, but very good material.  holds up much better in the sun than plexiglass too.

keep up the good work!!

tom
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 28, 2011, 05:12:56 PM
Thanks Y'all,

I want to get away from hardware and glue...

On the Driver Ring I am going to open the hole size up, to reduce the stress on the tap.  This will reduce the holding power of the screws, so I'll probably use epoxy also.  Neither one would be used in an industrial strength device.  I want to make the magnets press fit into groove, so that the stator is like one piece, no hardware, no glue.  This will require more precise machining, and I don't quite know how I am going to do it yet.

The reason I am tapping holes here is to eliminate at least some of the hardware (nuts), and use chemicals to eliminate other hardware (lock washers).  I don't feel like any glue is industrial strength.  It seems solid now, but later after stresses in test, the glue will develop a crack, and it will grow, and the glue joint will eventually fail at the worst possible time.  I don't want to experience FMOD.  Tbird, in your wind generator the magnets are potted into place, with the resin surrounding the magnets.  In my application there would only be a thin layer between the magnet and the Stator, much less holding power, which is why I feel screws are necessary.  But, I agree that I might be able to get away with using glue only on the outer Driver Disk that is not spinning, I'm still gonna put screws in there, because that is the design, that's the plan...

Tbird, do you have a website that shows off you wind generator?  Is it a Axial Flux Alternator?

My DiaMag6 Alternator is Sort of a hybrid between the Axial Flux and Radial Flux Alternators.  However, the result is not as efficient as I hoped it would be, it does produce current, and is sufficient for this proof-of-concept device.  I explain the idiosyncrasies of my hybrid alternator in the Dia Mag Alternator thread.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: tbird on February 28, 2011, 06:46:24 PM
hi z,

i didn't mean to give you the idea to use glue on the rotor, only on the stator.  IBM did that on all their dc drive motors in their early model computers.  it works fine unless there is excessive (really hot!) heat or they get bumped hard on the outside, like being dropped on a concrete floor.  to add a little extra, after the positioning is set up (5 minutes), run a small bead on the underside overhang, both sides.  when using epoxy (this stuff is epoxy), too thin a layer does make the joint weaker.  giving it a nice bead to fill between the magnet and rotor will make you think it was welded (and should look like it too).  wooden boat builders (Gold Coast Yachts, st croix) will allow up to 1/4 inch gap in their carpentry (joints, been there, seen that) without worry when filling with epoxy and suitable filler.

on the rotor, i think the bolts are the best.  nuts just cut down on a lot of tedious,  tender, intent labor.  with your mill, cutting slots (rather than drilling holes) would be easy and provide a good nest for the nuts.

if you still feel you must tap the holes, buy a set of 3 taps.  the sizes are progressively larger.  this lets you start small and work your way up.  not as big of a load each time, but takes 3 times to get 1 finished.  even with this set, i would make this a hand job.  if you were able to chuck the tap up in the mill, i could see wanting to do that.  doing it with a hand drill seems to be asking for trouble, to me.  i assume the hole is deep enough that you don't have to get a special "bottom tap", right?

i don't have a website.  i bought a kit from ed at windstuffnow.com.  here is the assy. instructions which will give you a pretty good idea of what i did.

http://www.windstuffnow.com/turbine%20kit.pdf

tom

ps  magnets are brittle.  be careful when trying to press them into something they don't want to go into.  also, they don't like too much heat either.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on February 28, 2011, 07:17:46 PM
Your Wind Generator looks a lot like Other Power's design...

http://www.otherpower.com/trips1.html

They build the coolest stuff out of junk...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: tbird on February 28, 2011, 07:56:24 PM
i think the design is real close to the same.  the magnets in ed's are made for the round rotor disk.  they are not rectangular.  it is for my boat, so i opted for lighter and cleaner, plus he had it on the shelf.  maybe a little more money, but worth it to me.

tom
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 01, 2011, 12:31:05 PM
Look at this goofy thing. This is the right angle chuck I got to do the inside drilling and tapping...

It looks funny, and was awkward trying to use it the first time, but I am getting used to it...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 01, 2011, 12:37:15 PM
I changed the drilling and tapping strategy a bit...

I was using a 110 mil pilot hole.  Really too tight for hard material.  So I backed off to a 123.5 mil pilot hole, and the tap is a lot happier.  Also limiting the depth of the pilot hole to 550 mils, and the tap to 500 mils.  The screw only goes into the hole about 250 mils.  So this is less stress on all the tools and me altogether.  In the Stator Disk, I was making full depth taps, to the limit of the tap.  Plus there were the weight relief cutouts that caused some problems.  I probably should have waited to drill those until after the magnet screw holes were cut...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 02, 2011, 02:48:29 AM
Before I finish the Driver Ring, I needed to fix up the Driver Ring support pins.  Having a threaded bolt there is going to make for a difficult insertion of the Driver Ring.  So I needed some smooth rods to slide the Driver Ring on to the rest of the assembly.  These Pins are 1/4-20 x 3" bolts that have a 2" shank.  I sawed the bolt head off and rounded off the stub so they are pins.  Then the pins need to aligned so they are parallel, and square so the Driver Ring will move freely.  I fabricated some 800 mil spacers out of 1/4" inside diameter aluminum tubes, that I just happened to have as scraps...

Edit:  The spacers set the height of teh Driver Ring...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 04, 2011, 05:01:19 AM
I got all the holes and taps finished with no problems on the Driver Ring.  No tool breakage...

Assembled the driver ring, and gave it an initial test.  No Self-motoring so far...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: broli on March 04, 2011, 06:53:32 AM
I got all the holes and taps finished with no problems on the Driver Ring.  No tool breakage...

Assembled the driver ring, and gave it an initial test.  No Self-motoring so far...

Good job anyway! It's rare to see people create things from scratch but creating things is imo a fundamental human trait. There's very little that can compare to the pride of being able to say "I created that". Whether it would spin or not that machine is already full of your energy.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 04, 2011, 01:16:49 PM
Good job anyway!
While I appreciate your eloquent way of saying "It sure is pretty, but it don't work."...

Frankly were not done here yet.  A couple of weeks ago I decided to take the relief cuts down to the limits.  This created a lot of extra clearance between the magnets.  I just now finished machining it.  Haven't got a chance to study, refine, and balance it yet.  That is where the magic is.  There are 44 magnets in the UABMM and they form a balance.  When you have a stall condition all these forces are equaled and at rest.  Now, by adjusting the clearances I can slightly tilt that balance, hopefully enough to cause one transition, and then a cascade, and  I am hoping that will make it go...

It does kinda want to go.  Give it a push and it does run a few revs...

We just need to add some finesse, and PFM...

Sure is damn tired tho...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 04, 2011, 01:27:28 PM
I can already see that I'll be making more of these, and it may take several revisions to get it right...

Make it perfect on the first try?

I have yet to do that ever...

But Revision A is generally production worthy...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 05, 2011, 03:06:09 PM
There are 44 magnets in the UABMM and they form a balance.  When you have a stall condition all these forces are equaled and at rest.  Now, by adjusting the clearances I can slightly tilt that balance, hopefully enough to cause one transition, and then a cascade, and  I am hoping that will make it go...
Point of reference is key.  Where is neutral?  What is a slight tilt?

This design is very wrong.  Now that I have a slight bit of experience with the actual device, albeit non-functional, I can look at it from many different angles.  The cants are way too aggressive, and the clearance is way too big.  Side currents (eddy currents) from the magnets are latching the magnets between each push.  The cants need to be slightly off balance, and I swung them over to 45 degrees.  LOL!  Well, hey, its my first magnet motor...

Need to let this fester in my brain some more.  I think it will get better with time, like sharp white cheddar.  So, I am thinking the balance reference for the cants is 0 degrees, directly facing each other, so there is no vector of movement.  A slight tilt would be 5 to 10 degrees (not 45).  Then the clearance on this one is a couple hundred mills, and should be more like a tenth of that.  Reducing the cant angle will hep reduce the side current interference and magnet latching problem.  Then also getting the magnets close together should also help reduce the side currents.

So the current UABMM is scrap, unusable.  This means UABMM2 is in the works.  The plate of Aluminum that I used to make the UABMM is $10, so material cost is pretty low.  But its also the part that has the most labor, so it costs the most really.  So, now with one built, having figured out the nuances, a second one will probably take two full days of machine time.  Plus all the magnets and hardware are reusable.  This will also give me a chance to make the Driver Ring mounting system better...

Awesomes...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: loosecannon on March 06, 2011, 07:26:33 AM
a valiant effort indeed Z monkey.

im wondering if your current model could be modified to be a "testbed" of sorts for other magnet angles and such.

you could fab a bunch of small brackets that would allow you to mount magnets at different angles, then mount those brackets on top of your outer ring.
then you could raise the inner ring up to line up with the magnets on the outer ring.

not sure if your inner ring is useable or not, but the same idea could be applied to it.

this way, your assembly is modular and you can get much more experimentation out of a single build.

just an idea.
LC
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 06, 2011, 10:57:22 AM
you could fab a bunch of small brackets that would allow you to mount magnets at different angles...
Variable cants?  Not a bad idea, for experimentation, and for practical use.  There needs to be a way to "throttle" the motor.  Not just for use but also for stand by.  How do we turn it off?  Pull the driver ring?  Not very practical.  I thought about using a shaft mounted brake, but that makes heat, not good for magnets.  So the other idea was to swing the magnets out of each others influence.

Well, yes this is a good idea, but we are talking about 24 magnets on the driver and another 20 on the stator.  That is a lot of brackets.  And then if we wanted to synchronize those there are more pieces to be fabricated.  Like another ring which has a slot for each magnet.  Each magnet bracket has a pin which fits in the ring slots.  As the ring turns it alters the cants of the magnets, similar to an iris mechanism.  The ring then could be connected to a linear actuator, like a lever, which could be used as a throttle.  So, when we want the motor to go, we push the lever, which pushes the magnets into place, and the motor is in a run condition.  Then pull the lever to pull the magnets out of alignment, stopping the motor.

Yes, good idea LC, but what it comes down to at the moment is labor.  It is probably going to be easier for me to make a new plate set, than it would be to  design and fabricate 44 brackets.  But the idea is definitely something to think about in future designs.  Look at what some others have done to stop their magnet motors.  Perendev uses the "clamshelled" driver ring, and also tried pins.  Yildiz uses plate sections that have to be unscrewed and removed one at a time.  These are not very practical.  It works for an experiment, but not simple enough for everyday use.  Lutec's device is a mystery to me, and appears to be electromagnetic, so they are probably using electronic controls to throttle it...

Thanks, good idea...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: tbird on March 06, 2011, 01:19:32 PM
hi z,

those brackets can be made fast and easy.  think decorative aluminum angle.  size to suit your needs.  mark spacing (unless you have a nice ruler on the mill), set up in mill vice and drill magnet mounting holes.  same for bracket mounting holes.  once drilled, set in miter box, with stop for length.  hack saw will make short work of separating the pieces and keep things square.

mount your rotor in the rotating table and score a line at the distance from the edge you want the brackets mounted.  same for drive ring.  you could use degrees or the points (formed by the previous machining) for distance between mounting holes, which can be tapped (easier than the first job).  since the angle alu. will be a bit thin, you may have to use a nut to hold the magnet on the bracket. 

there will be 4 magnets that you can't mount this way because of the guide pins & holes.  consider tapping the ends of those pins.  it looks like it might be a good distance (from outer edge of ring) to use as a reference for all drive ring brackets.  just turn the angle bracket 180 degrees and mount on top of pin.

i may not have covered all or been clear enough, but you are very handy when it comes to working your machine.  i'm sure you'll get the details right.

btw, it was just a thought.

tom
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 06, 2011, 02:12:48 PM
Howdy tbird,

I see what you mean about the "L" brackets.  The variable cants would really help development.  I am going to leave the corners on the new plate set, and move the driver ring mounting points to the corners.  So, we can add a cant adjustment to those last four magnets on the driver ring...

I'm working on a drawing now...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: tbird on March 06, 2011, 03:31:34 PM
this is my version of a "tbird".

tom
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 06, 2011, 04:23:47 PM
That looks a lot more fun than mine...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 07, 2011, 06:21:57 PM
So, I am thinking the balance reference for the cants is 0 degrees, directly facing each other, so there is no vector of movement.  A slight tilt would be 5 to 10 degrees (not 45)
Where is Neutral?

I forget that we're dealing with a circular object here.  Neutral is not perpendicular to the vertical axis through the center of the stator disk.  I did some doodling to see what is going on here.  If I adjust the cant to what I was thinking was the Neutral position, it is actually canted in the wrong direction (negative cant).  Were dealing with a radius so the neutral position has to be parallel with the radius.  So I measured what angle I needed to make the magnet sit flat on the radius, and that is about 7 degrees.  This means that my angles on the first UABMM are around 38 degrees and not 45 degrees, it is off set from the Neutral Position, and not relative to the vertical axis through the center of the stator disk...

I am experimenting with cant angles for the new UABMM2.  I will also probably be changing the magnet spacing and the number of magnets.  The first experiment threw a whole bunch of new variables into the equation.  Before I draw UABMM2, I need to get all these new variables worked into the puzzle...

The Neutral position of the magnets is relative to the radius of the stator.  The larger the radius of the stator the smaller the Neutral Position offset, and the smaller the radius of the stator the larger the Neutral Position offset...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 08, 2011, 10:49:07 PM
OK,

Made the drawing, got a couple more motor plates on order...

Also ordered the Palmgren Milling Table.  I got a deal on it too.  I've kinda been waiting on the right incentive.  So, today MSC sent me a 30% web coupon for orders over $199.  Just what I've been waiting for.  The Milling table was $315, and I get 30% off, so I paid $220, awesomes...  The best American table for about the price of the import...

I'm ready to mark up a plate, and get back to shredding metal...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 10, 2011, 02:59:36 AM
Remember that whole, sloppy, cross slide table problem?

Yeah, ain't got that no moerz...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 18, 2011, 03:11:49 AM
Getting a new machine table gives me an excuse to upgrade some other things...

I was clamping the Drill Press to the table with some bar clamps.  I drilled some 1/2" holes in the bench to clamp the Drill Press base with some 1/2" machine screws.

Then I clamped the Palmgren Table to the Drill Press Table with some C-Clamps, temporarily, so I can cut the holes in the adapter plate which will attach the Palmgren Table to the Drill Press Table.  There are a set of mounting points on the Palmgen Table which are a bit larger than the mounting points on the Drill Press Table.  I have a spare piece of 1/2" thick aluminum plate which is just right to join the two.  I marked up the plate and put the pilot holes in it using the temporarily mounted Palmgren Table.  Then worked them to size with a Unibit in a Hand Drill.

I need to get a 45 degree, 1/2" countersink so that I can make the bolt heads flush.  Then I can mount the new table on the drill press.  I really need to get a larger drill press so that I can utilize the full range of the new table, but for what I need to do right now, I've got plenty of space...

Its like Mini-Mill 2.0...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: broli on March 18, 2011, 06:51:12 AM
Nice upgrade man, but It's best you make something lovely with it for the wife (if there is one) first before attempting FE, or else it will come back to bite you in the ass big time ;D .
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 18, 2011, 10:48:41 AM
Nice upgrade man, but It's best you make something lovely with it for the wife (if there is one) first before attempting FE, or else it will come back to bite you in the ass big time ;D .
She said "That's pretty"...
Its my motivation to make "pretty" bits of billet.  Every piece nets the same response...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 21, 2011, 01:21:47 AM
I got a Countersink bit on order Friday.  Couldn't find one local...
The head of the bolt is 7/8", and the biggest bit I found here was 3/4".
Should have a the new countersink on Tuesday.

In the meanwhile, I got the Table set up for the countersink process.
I've got extra clamps in there because I've never made a 7/8" cut in
a chunk of AMS-4027, so kinda don't know what to expect with the
new table and all...

Another shot of why I need an adapter plate...

Edit:  BTW it'sa 90 degree countersink, was looking at axial angle, and not tip angle...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 24, 2011, 12:32:16 PM
Man, that's a big countersink.  I'll need to change the spindle speed first. 
Its at 990 RPM now, for the 0.125" end mill.  The 7/8" countersink is probably
a little larger than what this drill press is rated for in aluminum.  So, I'm gonna
take it down to minimum RPM, 250...

Then I get the table adjusted, and locked.  Adjust the table clamps on the plate, and clamp them.
Line up the hole to be countersunk, and engage the Z Axis (turn on the motor and start cutting)...

Totally sweet...  Nuthin' like that other table (Bitmore).  Rock solid, just as solid as when I use the
little mills.  Big cuts were scary with the Bitmore table.  The Palmgren does big cuts so much better...

Got a shot in there of the countersunk hole...

Then also a shot of the new UABMM2 plate marked up...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on March 25, 2011, 12:46:26 PM
I finished off the adapter plate and got that installed.
That was a workout.  Fitting that 63 pound table.
Of course it didn't go the first time.  Gonna need the
big breakfast today...

Also got the new motor plate ready for spotting...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on April 27, 2011, 04:12:00 AM
Got some more metal shredding time in the shop today...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on April 28, 2011, 03:31:40 AM
OK, there, I have the square cuts done...
Now for the curvvy cuts...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on April 29, 2011, 03:06:31 AM
Nice Curves...

Not being able to use the rotary table for a couple of reasons, I has to use
some scrapyard ingenuity to make some nice curves.  The T-Slot nuts are
made so the threads stop at the back of the nut.  This prevents someone from
torquing a screw into the slot base and making a dent.  But, in this case, I need
a fixed point to be an axis for my circular cuts.  So, I took an 3/8 inch bolt,
sawed off the head, and then ground the end of the bolt to be an anchor point
for my circle.  The ground end of the bolt extends through the T-Slot nut and
can be jammed into the table.  This creates a hard axis on the table to be the
center of the circle.  Then I used a flat washer, a flange nut, and a jam nut
to create a locked tension on the plate in process.  Then the Table Clamps lock
the Plate down for cutting.

I created a BASIC subroutine to exemplify my process...

Start Process:
05 Process=Work
10 lock table clamps
20 engage Z-Axis (cut hole)
30 unlock table clamps
40 if Plate=Done then goto 70 else goto 50
50 Rotate plate 2 degrees
60 goto 10
70 Process=MillerTime
End Process

The Palmgren Table, and the new Clamps are like an Order of Magnitude
better than the Bitmore Table.  Excellent parts are made by excellent tools...
 
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: loosecannon on April 29, 2011, 03:22:56 AM
looks great so far.

been watching for some activity on this thread for a while now.

are you going to hard mount the magnets or make them moveable?
LC
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on April 29, 2011, 03:28:23 AM
They are fixed for now...
Variable cants involve too many variables for me to deal with now...
The Future?  Probablyz...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: Lakes on April 29, 2011, 10:56:09 AM
I`d love to see a video of these being created, its like mechanical art... :D
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on April 29, 2011, 11:31:52 AM
I`d love to see a video of these being created, its like mechanical art... :D
A video of a CNC machine doing this would be cool...
But, I'm doing manual control, its pretty boring...
LOL!  Get it?  Boring...  ROFL!  ...Uulgh...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: Lakes on April 29, 2011, 11:57:20 AM
Boring... hahaha

you could always do a speeded up video... :)
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 03, 2011, 03:22:32 PM
I've been looking for a way to speed up my process.  Every time I lock, or unlock a table clamp I have to pick up a wrench, and put it back down.  The more steps in a process, the more time you spend adjusting the work piece and not cutting the work piece.  So to try and make the process a little more efficient I replaced the flange nuts on the table clamps with wing nuts.  I'm going to cut the next segment this way and see if I can get away with using the wing nuts.  Using the flange nuts allows me to put a lot more torque on the clamp, thus more clamping power, and I want to see if the hand tightened wing nut can clamp sufficiently to do these cuts.  If they can, then I can speed up the process a little by not having to use the wrench to clamp and unclamp the table clamps...

Just another one of my wing nut ideas...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 03, 2011, 07:59:22 PM
Well, there are lever clamps, and cam action clamps that I could have used.  But I bought the Adapta-Clamps for several reasons.  First they are designed to be used in the table slots, a big plus, and the lever clamps are not.  Second, they are forged, very heavy duty, and when combined with the T-Slot Nuts and hardened studs can provide an immense amount of clamping force.  The lever clamps are limited to the hand force on the lever, the Adapta-Clamps can be torqued with a wrench if need be.  But they seem to do good with the wing nuts.  I could also play with the wing nuts to get more torque by getting wing nuts with larger wings.  I have seen them up to 4.5 inches outside diameter.

Economy Adapta-Clamps are here...
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT2?PMCTLG=00&PMAKA=05885439&partnerURL=http://catalogs.shoplocal.com/mscdirect/index.aspxopagename=shopmainPcircularid=16558Pstoreid=1040626Ppagenumber=1224Pmode=

Torquer Wing Nuts...
http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/NNSRIT2?PMAKA=02582369&PMPXNO=26670462&cm_re=ItemDetail-_-ResultListing-_-SearchResults
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 03, 2011, 10:44:54 PM
If you look at the whole clamp, here...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9656.0;attach=51534;image

I could replace the foot on the table with one of those Gibraltar Cam Levers.  Each of the clamps feet has a pin with a couple of spring clips to retain the pin.  I need to measure the table clamp to see if the lever will fit, and if it does that would be a sweet solution.  Then the wing nut is the tension adjuster like on a vice-lock pliers, and the cam lever locks and unlocks the clamp, and I can retain my forged clamp body and hardened hardware.  Looks like those cam levers are also hardened, judging by the price...  $25 each...

Thanks for the ideas...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 03, 2011, 11:28:32 PM
I have often thought of using magnetic bearings.  What I had imagined was single form magnets that were a cones on the shaft and an inverse cones for the seat.  The seat part has a hole in it so the shaft can come through the seat.  Then there is a yoke which holds the seats.  A tensioner clamps the seats together and the shaft/cones are suspended between the seats.  The harder you clamp the seats together, the more slippery the magnetic bearing becomes, well, until you crash the magnets into each other.

The problem with magnetic bearings is these forms don't exist yet.  You would have to build a compound structure with many magnets, as you have, or pay the bux to have custom magnets built, not cheap.  When you are dealing with fringe technologies, and tenuous energies, efficiency becomes very important.  Magnetic bearings might make something possible now, that was just not possible before.  Imagine what Tesla could do with Neodymium magnets.  LOL!  We would all have spacecraft now!
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 04, 2011, 12:34:54 AM
This one fits perfect.  The pin is 5/16", the width is 7/8", the cam fits the casting clearance...  Rox!

http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/NNSRIT2?PMAKA=82393224&PMPXNO=2143559&cm_re=ItemDetail-_-ResultListing-_-SearchResults

Excellente!
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 04, 2011, 02:12:29 AM
In my design the poles of the bearing magnets are aligned with the shaft axis, rather than pointed outward.  This may help furl the tails.  But, we need to look at all contingencies to control runout and clearances.  To build an industrial grade machine we need to control the precessional slop and the linear slop, uh, back and forth, and up and down, or three dimensional.  So the end product may need a compound complex solution.  I was thinking that the end product may need to be magnetized in multiple directions.  It needs to have linear bearings, as well as rotary bearings, like a compound bearing, but I can't really provide an existing model because it doesn't exist yet, as far as we know...

The more you dig into this Electro-Magneto-Mechanical Universe, the more you realize how little you know...

Diggage...

Title: Why Pros Choose Ping G15 driver?
Post by: celine86 on May 04, 2011, 07:40:41 AM
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Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 06, 2011, 01:52:43 AM
I got the Cam Levers today...

We make Toggle Clamps...

I had a problem with the pin in the clamp.  It is 313 mils and the hole in the Cam Lever is 309 mils.  It has to be press fit using differential temperatures.  So can't do that here, yet, so I substituted a 5/6" bolt (#2 Grade) temporarily.  The Clamp body, stud, pin, and nut are all case hardened.  This means that they are like carbon steel, grade 10 or 12, and my steel tools are not going to cut them.  So I can't modify them with the tools that I have.  I do have a few M42 Cobalt Steel mills that would cut them, but they are the wrong size.  So, I am probably going to have to substitute with off the shelf hardware I can get at the hardware store.  The Ace hardware close to me has grade 8 bolts which will probably work for what I am doing here...

Back to shredding metal...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 06, 2011, 03:26:04 AM
Productivity is up!

I did this quadrant in about 30 minutes.  The first took a few hours...

I can work both clamps simultaneously...  Way Mo Faster...

Thanks again Webby...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 06, 2011, 04:22:22 AM
Yeah, Mo Bettas...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 06, 2011, 08:45:33 PM
Maybe should get the prototype working before I go into mass production...

But, it always a good idea to plan ahead.  Professionally, I am a manufacturer, so when the time comes to crank out the copies I am ready.  There are a couple of machine shops I work with, and they have a tool rooms full of high quality CNC machines.  So no problem with making a lot of copies.

Copies are easy, it the first one that is the bugger...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 07, 2011, 03:47:31 AM
I finished off the perimeter rough cut...

Then used a fine 18" bastard to smooth out the scallops...

Now we're lookin' stylish...

Time to make some cants...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 09, 2011, 02:12:57 AM
I put some 45 degree chamfers on the driver ring mounting holes.  This will help the insertion of the driver ring.  Then started working on the driver ring cants.  It sort of looks like a circle, but its really 40 flats.  I align the flats to be parallel with the table and then use the table to cut a flat which becomes the cant.  The driver cants are in the neutral position on UABMM2...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 09, 2011, 01:58:39 PM
I got the Driver Ring liberated this morning....
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 10, 2011, 02:01:27 PM
Doh, accidentally posted this in the Dia Mag Alternator thread...

I guess they are kinda symbiotic...

I fitted the new driver ring plate this morning.  I pulled the old driver ring pins replaced them with 6 inch pieces of 1/2"-13 threaded rod.  They use the same holes as the feet of theDiaMag6 alternator.  There are no heads on the rods so I needed to improvise some feet.  I used a flange nut as a foot, and a regular nut as a jam nut to keep the feet in place.  This acts as a leveler too.  I am going to have to do some adjusting to get the threaded rods to act like driver ring pins...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 11, 2011, 02:08:38 PM
I cut another sacrificial block.  Round this time, to make the clamp jostling easier.  It gave me a chance to use one of my new mills.  I bought a set of end mills that ranges from 3/16" to 3/4" by 16ths.  I used 1/2" to cut the sacrificial block.  This setup cuts plywood easy.  Now I have the rotor ready to cut its cants.  These are 8 degrees relative to the neutral position.  I'll align the cant with the table edge and cut flats as before...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 20, 2011, 12:39:09 PM
Cutters...
Now That's a box of knives, well, uh, er, End Mills...

New Blog...
http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 25, 2011, 03:50:43 PM
I started cutting the Rotor today.  I made a little gif...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 30, 2011, 08:06:07 PM
Finally got some time to finish the rotor plate on DiaMag2.  First pic is the piece of scrap between the rotor, and the stator.  Might be the mot awesome piece of scrap I have made so far.  The there is a pic of the new rotor, and the whole motor.  Still rough cut at this point.  Next I need to clean up the plates and get them ready for drilling and tapping...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 01, 2011, 03:09:46 AM
Beginning to cleanup the rotor and the stator for UABMM2.
After I get all the cants flat then I need to drill and tap screw holes.
As I am cleaning up the cants I am noticing that I can get the
tolerances really close to the lines.  Cut wide (5 to 10 mils) and grind
the cant down to the line, which is a carbide pencil tip, 1 to 2 mils
wide.  This kind of thing really does need tight tolerances...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 01, 2011, 05:05:35 PM
There, got the plates cleaned up...
On to drilling and tapping...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 02, 2011, 02:20:11 PM
Got the stator drilled, tapped, and populated...
Look, its my first quantum singularity...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 03, 2011, 01:44:09 AM
Fixin' to drill, tap, and populate the rotor...
My fingers are very sore.  Like I have a sunburn on my fingertips.
Using various files to grind the cants, then placing the magnets
on the stator was very tedious.  Also have a lot of cuts from the
metal edges.  LOL! some holiday...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 03, 2011, 06:07:13 PM
I have the stator partially populated here, ran out of magnets...
Need to get another 30 on order.  The repulsion on this set
of plates is greater.  The clearance is only 50 mils, so the
magnets are a lot closer together, and they are facing each
other more directly.  If you give the rotor a push it will go a
few turns and then find that balance point and jiggle to a stop.
Hopefully when I get the rest of the magnets installed I will
have all those balance points covered...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 04, 2011, 07:58:39 PM
In that last post it should have been the rotor is partially populated...

Gee, lucky me, the price of neodymium magnets has suddenly gone up
by 30 to 35 percent.  Before I paid $1.72 for the 1/2 inch square magnets
and now they are $2.43.  The magnets that I want to use for NeoMag8
were $10.99 for a pair (need 4 pairs) and now they are $16.99.

Think this has something to do with China restricting rare earth materials?
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 06, 2011, 04:24:11 PM
According to this article, China reduced their export quotas on Rare Earths
by 35%, so the result is the price of neodymium magnets goes up by 35%...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/06/china-rareearth-idUSL3E7I61UM20110706

But now Japan has found new sources of Rare Earths in the Pacific...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/04/rareearth-japan-idUSL3E7I406M20110704

I think I am going to wait a while before I buy more magnets.  I want to see
how this stupid market bullshit plays out...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: CLaNZeR on July 08, 2011, 11:44:44 PM
WOW really nice work, especially since all done by hand.

Good stuff mate

Cheers

Sean.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 09, 2011, 12:59:38 AM
Thanks, I appreciate it...

I am striving to make an industrial grade device.  Only building prototypes
now, so my manual control tools are sufficient.  But, in the future, if I need
to go to a production level, I want to get a CNC Vertical Mill, and a decent
Metal Lathe.  Actually I could use a Metal Lathe now for the DiaMag8...

So, maybe I could think of a few accessories for your Modular Rig...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: eroutt on October 27, 2011, 11:37:38 AM
what about this idea? 
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11591.0

my idea only use's one magnet sphere and is a little easier to build.
i think this will help you with your generator!

your motor may fail because of eddy currents slowing it down from the aluminum!
Google eddy currents.   
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on October 27, 2011, 11:53:16 AM
Gee Eroutt, you must be psychic...
I just received the magnets to finish off the rotor.
Just fixing to drill and tap the rest of the rotor
magnet holes.  Your design does look significantly
less costly.  Maybe I tries it...

http://www.youtube.com/user/magikahn?feature=mhum
http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: eroutt on October 28, 2011, 12:24:11 AM
never mind what i say. i changed my mind! >:(
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on October 28, 2011, 12:41:44 AM
never mind what i say. i changed my mind! >:(
Huh?  Wut you say...
Don't get discouraged because of some rude peeps...
This is a learning experience for all of us, even me...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on October 28, 2011, 01:06:18 AM
Like for instance...

I finished drilling and tapping the holes in the stator.  I figured that I would put a series of magnets on there and see if I can get some motion.  Well, first of all its imbalanced with only 8 magnets on there.  The imbalance caused me to bend the shaft, and bust a knuckle.  Already had been working on a better way to mount the rotor, but had been working on other stuffz lately.  A quarter inch shaft is puny compared to the cumulative magnetic forces designed in the rotor, which are 360 pounds on the rotor and 400 pounds on the stator, opposed.  I'm gonna need to go up to at least a half inch shaft.  Can you say redesign?  Big Sigh...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on October 28, 2011, 07:57:48 PM
OK, here I have all the magnets installed.  This thing is dangerous at this point.  There are literally hundreds of pounds of magnetic force on both the rotor and the stator.  They both hate each other and love each other in that in one position they want to go flying apart, and an inch away they want to slam together.  The rotor weighs less than a pound, but when it is stuck to a metal surface like the refrigerator it takes a major effort to get it loose...

So, when I get the rotor in place the magnets will push one side of the rotor down, and the other up.  The shaft arbor and the little quarter inch shaft are mere pawns to these forces and just bend.  Having a one sided mount was an epically bad idea.  When I physically force the rotor to sit level there are no rotational forces that I can detect.  Its just a more complex situation of the magnets finding a static balance point and sticking there, HARD.  I'm beyond melancholy now.  I still want to believe that this can work, but after so much work and expense, and no results I have to say this is a failed concept.

While I don't just want to give up on this concept, I am going to need to redesign the way the rotor is mounted on the shaft, the bearing placements, and the methodology of bringing the stator into proximity with the rotor.  I have an idea in my head.  First we need a much sturdier shaft, 1/2 inch, and the rotor need to be very solidly fixed on that shaft.  Then the stator would move on the outer support rods, 1/2 screws, and would be a spring loaded, nut actuated engagement system.  Then also the bearings would need to be extra heavy duty, and mounted n the ends of the shafts so the magnetic forces can't bend the shaft around at will.  Total redesign of the mounting system, the rotor and stator would remain the same.

The first picture here is the rotor in position, and the magnetic forces bending the shaft to the physical balance point.  Looks pretty sorry.  Then the second picture is the loose rotor levitating over the stator.  The axle is preventing movement in the X and Y axises, and the magnetic forces are causing the rotor to levitate in the Z axis.

I had also thought about taking the magnets and building something else, perhaps some new alternator, or a levitating toy.  Right now I think I'll just go and get a bowl of Pho, and a nap...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: eroutt on October 28, 2011, 11:56:59 PM
would you like to help me with my project? i know thats a lot to ask! but i would like to at least prove to my self that it can be done. i have made the same thing you have at my shop that i use to have:( i had to sell all my tools to move. the magnet motors all failed but i did get it to go 180 then stop! i have tryed to build this but with out the tools i am at a loss! i am trying to build up my tools again but it cost's $ i figuerd out that magnets on magnets did not work for a motor. there had to be something to guide the magnet forward! and metal can do just that! but it has to be tapered to gain the speed to pass the 108 gate. and at the same time spin to surpass the 180 gate. anyway there is a lot of data for this that i can go on about. but its up to you?       
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on October 29, 2011, 02:15:53 AM
i have made the same thing you have at my shop
Wut U say?  You built the UABMM2?  Or the Mill?

I gotta say you picked a bad time for help on a magnet motor.  I feel like I could probably do this, if I had a research budget, and I don't, and it seems like you don't either.  If you are determined to make a free energy device an alternator would be a much more practical choice.  Then couple the alternator to an open system, like the wind, and there you go.  Its not that I don't want to help, but magnet motors are on my shit list right now.  Go look at the Dia. Mag. Alternator thread, its a much more practical, and useful device, that you can actually make work, unlike the dubious magnet motor.  I gotta say that if you have the impetus to build stuff then you are way ahead of the masses, but the Magnet Motor is the wrong way to go.  Take that Neodymium magnet, put it on a shaft and spin it next to some coils instead.  Pick something that is within your scope of feasibility, and not too much of a challenge.  Once you get a success, then pick a more challenging project...

Look at the DiaMag7 specifically...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9220.msg279698#msg279698

Then look at DiaMag8...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9220.msg289063#msg289063

DiaMag8 Test...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9220.msg300666#msg300666

More power to you in your experimentifying...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on November 04, 2011, 11:09:44 AM
Over this week I have gathered the materials to make a new mount for the UABMM2.  First I'm going to a larger shaft, and I picked up a piece of 1/2" steel round stock.  I picked the softer material this time because I need to machine a keyway into it for the split taper bushing.  A split taper bushing is used to hold pulleys and sprockets to a shaft, and should work perfect for holding the rotor.  Also had to get 1/2 inch bearings, for the new shaft, and the end plates to hold the bearings.  I had to order another plate of AMS4051, had one in stock.  So now I have the plates marked up to make the bearing mounts, and am ready to start machining them.  The new arrangement ill be similar to the way it is now, with the four threaded rods being the main support structure, but I am removing the DiaMag6 alternator in favor of the new support plates.  When I get the UABMM2 running I plan on designing a new alternator which is scaled to the UABMM2 plate size, and based on the DiaMag8 alternator.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on November 07, 2011, 02:54:57 AM
I did get a little time to work on the UABMM2 this weekend.  Cut the new shaft and fitted the split taper bushing.  I spotted the holes in the new bearing mounting plates using a 1/4 inch, 90 degree point,  M42 Cobalt spotting mill.  Then bored out the holes in the plates to make the stack using a step drill.  The sacrificial block is the same on I used to machine the UABMM2 Motor plate, so the holes already fit.  I used the 7/8" inch counter sink to make the countersinks in the back of the sacrificial block.  And then  I am using grade 8, 1/2 inch countersunk bolts to hold the stack together while I am machining the shapes in the stack.  Again, like the other radiused cuts I have made, I am using my Z Axis stud which I jam into the table to be the center of the radius, and the cam action table clamps to hold everything to the table during cutting.  I should have the new bearing mounting brackets cut in another day or so...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: Reisender on November 08, 2011, 10:54:50 PM
Respect to great work!! Have you tried to accelerate the engine at least 1300 rpm and more?  All "real" magnet-motors must be pre-accelerated before they "hook up into”!
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on November 09, 2011, 12:42:32 AM
Thanks Reisender,
So I might need a starter motor?
I hadn't thought of that, but I'll keep it mind...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: Reisender on November 09, 2011, 11:08:45 AM
Yes absolutely! That is how it has to be done. If Perendev has told.

SEARL Engine runs in such a way. (Smoke have confirmed it.)

The engine PM3 is begun thus.
http://pes wiki.com/index.php/Directory:Magnetic_Motors:PM3

Gives an interesting history in addition from an amateur handicraftsman, name Harry. He has inserted a brake in the form of an openable door with his engine. After acceleration on rmp 1300 the engine accelerated and went immediately on rmp 50000. This Harry could not react. Everything broken.

Sorry for bad Englsich. It is an automatic translation.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on November 12, 2011, 09:57:56 AM
Back in the Metal Shop on 11/11/11.
Taking all that funky numeric synchronicity and
channeling it into metal working...
So at 11:11 AM on 11/11/11 I was shredding metal...

\m/___(O.o)___\m/
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 07, 2012, 01:24:20 AM
Finally got some time to work on the UABMM this weekend.  Full elucidation here...

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/05/uabmm2-test-fit.html (http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/05/uabmm2-test-fit.html)

Been a little too busy with springtime, and the new business and all...

http://black-dog-technologies.blogspot.com/ (http://black-dog-technologies.blogspot.com/)

Check out teh pix...

Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 08, 2012, 06:21:16 PM
Now I have the bearings installed.  Full elucidation here.

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/05/uabmm2-bearings.html (http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/05/uabmm2-bearings.html)

I needed to bore out the center holes of the bearing mounting brackets.  They were 0.500 inches, and the bearings are 1.125 inches outside diameter.  So I used a large Step-Drill, or Uni-Bit to do this.  These are off the shelf bearings from an Ace Hardware store, only $2 each.  So far I am pleased with them, even though they have more play than I would like.  I can always upgrade to better bearings later.

So now its spinning.  Next I need to assemble the Rotor Assembly...

Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 09, 2012, 01:33:54 AM
I worked on the Rotor Assembly today...

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/05/uabmm2-shaft-assembly.html (http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/05/uabmm2-shaft-assembly.html)

Video of the Rotating Assembly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svhaNLP8Zks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svhaNLP8Zks)

Nutshelled,
I made a shaft key,
made U blocks to hold the shaft,
machined a flat on the shaft,
press fit the split taper bushing,
drilled mounting holes in the Rotor,
assembled the rotor assembly,
then reassembled everything...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on May 16, 2012, 04:01:01 PM
Now I have the Rotor re-assembled.  The tremendous forces of the magnets are causing the split taper bushing to slide around on the shaft a little.  I was able to find a sticky spot on the shaft where the Rotor would stay put.  I think I need to make a new shaft key that is just a little bit bigger.

I needed a couple shaft collars to secure the ends of the shafts at the bearings.  I went to the local hardware store, but they didn't have any.  So, rather than order them on-line, and pay shipping charges, I decided to make my own.  I took a couple half inch nuts and drilled out the threads to 0.500 inches.  Then drilled a 0.159 inch hole through one of the nuts facets.  I ran a 10-32 tap through the 0.159 inch hole, and inserted a 10-32 set screw.  So I made a couple half inch shaft collars for about 25 cents each, they are almost $2 at MSC, plus shipping.

The new mount holds the Rotor square, and solid.  There is none of the deflection that I had with the single sided mount.  Also I added the gear on the end of the shaft to help me turn the shaft.  With the magnets installed it takes considerable torque to turn the shaft.  Once you get the Rotor over the sticking point it will turn relatively easily.  I can tell there are repulsion and attraction points, and there are still the "sticky" point between the magnet fields.

Now its finally assembled, and I can start playing with it.  The next task is to figure out how to mitigate the eddy currents between the magnets.  I am thinking that I can use some small pieces of Iron to short out the eddy currents, and eliminate the sticky spots.

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/05/uabmm2-new-mount-test.html (http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/05/uabmm2-new-mount-test.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wza5glN2cjA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wza5glN2cjA)
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on June 08, 2012, 11:13:41 AM
Been thinking about the cross currents between the magnets.  These cross currents cause the rotor to stick in various places where the face currents line up with and are attracted to the cross currents.  If you give the rotor a good spin it can overcome these cross currents until it looses inertia.

So, I've been looking into trying to mitigate these cross currents, and I figured that I can do this by shunting the cross currents by adding iron inserts between the magnets.  These modifications are meant to maximize the face currents and minimize the cross currents.

I needed to take the UABMM2 apart again to modify the Cants, and add the clearances for the magnetic shunts.  Also while I have the UABMM2 taken apart I made a new flat on the shaft to mount the split taper bushing tighter, and keep the rotor from slipping around.  This also gets the rotor to the position where I want it, at the bottom of the assembly, making space for the alternator part above.  More information here...

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/06/uabmm2-magnetic-shunts.html (http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/06/uabmm2-magnetic-shunts.html)
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on June 20, 2012, 02:08:54 AM
I've had to use a couple different thicknesses of sheet Iron to make the magnetic shunts.
Trying to be creative with limited resources.  I've managed to shunt about a third of
the Stator so far.  Going much easier with the thinner (20 mil) sheet Iron, rather than
the thicker (30 mil) sheet Iron.  My hole spacing is not as accurate as I wanted it to
be, and needed some flexibility in the width of the Shunts.  Now that I have got over
this hump the rest of the Shunts should be no problem...

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/06/uabmm2-magnetic-shunts-2.html (http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/06/uabmm2-magnetic-shunts-2.html)
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on June 20, 2012, 10:31:54 PM
Now I have all the magnetic shunts installed in the Stator.  The thinner gauge sheet Iron made the rest of the process much easier because I didn't need to file down the Cants.  I took a lot of the thicker (30 mil) shunts out and replaced them with the thinner (20 mil) shunts.  After reassembling the magnet motor I noticed that the Rotor took less effort to start, but now it is making noise because the shunts are moving, and making a ticking sound.
 
 Next I need to install shunts in the Rotor.  I am thinking that I can use epoxy, and Iron filings and make a shunt that I can inject into the gaps.  Then after the epoxy cures shouldn't move, and make sound.  I noticed that when I was adding the shunts that they would be drawn into the gap between the magnets, and they like to be in there, meaning they are not trying to get away.  This means the Iron Filing Epoxy Shunt Injection Process might work smoothly, without making a magnetic glue mess.  I guess we'll see...

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/06/uabmm2-magnetic-shunts-3.html (http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/06/uabmm2-magnetic-shunts-3.html)
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 13, 2012, 02:22:16 PM
Now I have all the shunts inserted between the magnets.  The rotor requires less torque to get it started, and the rotor turns for a longer time when spun, so I think we're making progress.  Eliminating cross currents between adjacent magnets is the key to getting this thing to run.  This set of shunts is 16 mil sheet metal.  What we need is something that conforms to the spaces between the magnets better.  So, the next thing I am going to try is the iron powder mixed with epoxy, and injected into the spaces where I need to control the cross currents between the magnets.  We are starting to see the potential of the UABMM2 now.

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/07/uabmm2-shunted.html (http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/07/uabmm2-shunted.html)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4xB5eUFmrk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4xB5eUFmrk)
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: avalon on July 13, 2012, 05:53:53 PM
I am astonished that all of that has been done by hand. Makes me feel completely useless as I rely on my CNC almost 100%.
Anyway, I am absolutely hooked and can't wait to see the end result.

All the best,
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 14, 2012, 01:08:06 AM
Howdy Avalon,

LOL!  Your the guy dreaming about classic tools, while I'm the guy dreaming about CNC tools.
What a wonky universe, wut up wit dat? No matter what you got, you want something else.
You do teh best wit wut ya got....

I use drafting tools to mark the piece, and cut wide, then grind into tolerance.  Yeah, its time
intensive, but you can get a really good piece in the end.  It's not as tight as I wanted it to
be, but I was able to make up for that, somewhat, with the shunts.

The idea for the stator is to make a contiguous N-Field, or a two dimensional Quantum Singularity.
Just a ring that has a contiguous N-Field within it.  Then on the Rotor we vector the magnets
to propel the rotor.  Haven't quite figured that out yet, workin' on it.  A three dimensional
Quantum Singularity would be a sphere with a contiguous N-Field, which is impossible in
a three dimensional universe.  Kinda makes you wonder what a Star is....

Thanks for the comment, and good to meet ya...

Edit:  BTW look at the hit counter when I read this...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on July 14, 2012, 05:00:34 AM
Hi Z.Monkey,

Excellent work, glad to see you're still working on that bucking magnet motor. :)

Good luck also in your new business venture.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 14, 2012, 05:21:18 PM
Thanks DreamThinkBuild,

Are you implying that all this work might payoff someday?  LOL!   8)
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 23, 2012, 02:18:36 PM
I often do things the wrong way, before I figure out the right way.  Lessons-n-stuff...
 
 When playing with the UABMM2, after installing the shunts, I thought "Why so Repulsive"?  Its a push, literally, directly opposing forces balance, as if the rotors magnet's are furled.  Why not try to swing them around the other way, and use the attractive forces as well as the repulsive forces.  I'm happy with the stator at this point, which is the race, or track that the rotor rides in.  So, looking to quickly test my theory I fabricated a test rotor out of plywood.

This is where the drill press broke, and I had to go run all over town to find a new belt.  Once I got back to work I made a 6 3/16 inch circle of 3/8 inch plywood.  I'm using a similar setup on the machine table that I used to make the Aluminum rotor, except that I am going to cut the cants with a saw.

I am only going to put 4 magnets on this one, at ninety degree increments.  Then also the cant will be ninety degrees, or perpendicular to the stator magnets.  This way one side of the magnet is attracted to the stator and the other side of the rotor magnet is repelled from the stator.

Once I got to cutting this only took a couple of hours.  After playing with the finished rotor I can see that I need to make an Aluminum rotor to try this full scale, 36 rotor magnets.  The plywood is too fragile to be a rotating assembly, and I had trouble getting 4 magnets to stay on.

When the rotor is spun it seems to be propelled a little, until the inertia, and the cross fields stop it.  This is why I need to fully populate the rotor to get the help of the uniform asynchronous idea, so not all the magnets are crossing the cross field points simultaneously.  Some are pushing, some are pulling, and some are on the cross points.  So now I need to go and find another piece of Aluminum.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 25, 2012, 04:17:55 PM
We I wasn't able to find a suitable piece of Aluminum laying around, but I did find a piece of Polyethylene.  The Polyethylene is structurally more stable than plywood, but also considerably softer than Aluminum.  I figured the Polyethylene would be suitable for a test rotor, to see if this unfurled idea works, then I replicate it in Aluminum.

I'll mark up the part using drafting tools by finding the center first, then draw a couple circles for the outer limit of the rotor, and the inner limit of the slots.  There will be 36 magnets on this rotor, so we'll use the compass to make ten degree increments around the periphery.  Then last thing to do before it goes on the Mini Mill is to make a half inch tooling hole directly in the center of the plate.

To hold the plate to the table I am using a T Nut, and a screw that has been modified to be jammed into the table to make the pivot point.  Then to hold it down I'll use a half inch Machine Washer, a Flange Nut, and a Lock Nut.  Line up the Pivot Point, the Mill, and the Drill Press Support Shaft to keep everything square.

The we'll do vertical cuts every couple of degrees around the periphery to cut the outer limit of the rotor, which is six and three eights inches in diameter.  Next we'll add some table clamps and cut the slots to hold the magnets.  The magnets are a quarter inch wide, so I am going to press fit the magnets in quarter inch slots.

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/07/uabmm2-unfurled-2.html (http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/07/uabmm2-unfurled-2.html)
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 25, 2012, 10:31:48 PM
Here I've got the perimeter of the Poly rotor cutout, and got the Mini Mill setup to cut the slots.  It took a few hours to cut all 36 slots.  The magnets do fit tight, but its not like a jam fit like I want, so I'll need to find another way to secure the magnets.  I'm thinking about wrapping the perimeter with electrical tape, or if need be use epoxy.  I can't wait to get to testing.
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on July 26, 2012, 08:19:16 PM
This morning I depopulated the eight degree rotor to put the magnets on the ninety degree rotor.   On the new rotor the magnets fit well in the slots, but they are not "jammed in" tight.  They need some help maintaining their position.  So I wrapped the perimeter with electrical tape for a test spin.  The electrical tape didn't last long, but I got a few spins in.  The rotor doesn't have the strong cogging like it had with the other two rotors.  It is much easier to start and spins longer with when you give it a spin.  Then the electrical tape tore, and bunched up in the clearance between the rotor and the stator.

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/07/uabmm2-unfurled-4.html (http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2012/07/uabmm2-unfurled-4.html)
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on August 29, 2012, 12:48:08 PM
I haven't had much time to mess with the UABMM2 lately, been working on work for a change.

Had some interesting problems with a 377 pin micro BGA...

http://black-dog-technologies.blogspot.com/2012/08/dogboned-bga.html (http://black-dog-technologies.blogspot.com/2012/08/dogboned-bga.html)

But got those worked out, and hopefully into manufacturing...

http://black-dog-technologies.blogspot.com/2012/08/single-channel-pcie-board.html (http://black-dog-technologies.blogspot.com/2012/08/single-channel-pcie-board.html)

Also did a logic design recently with 74HC CMOS Logic, that was cool...

Maybe soon I will be able to get back to working on the UABMM2...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: FR Turbo on May 13, 2014, 06:01:48 PM
Amazing amount of work done here...but what happened, thread went completely dead!?
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 21, 2014, 01:04:50 AM
Been working on other things lately...
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: forest on September 21, 2014, 10:27:48 AM
Been working on other things lately...
Oh , yeah..both powered by "The Bucking Magnet Motor". Congratulations.  :)
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 21, 2014, 10:41:12 AM
Oh , yeah..both powered by "The Bucking Magnet Motor". Congratulations.  :)
No...  Both powered by some very kick ass gas turbine engines...

I had very little to do with either of those things.  I'm helping them do Qualification testing on their environmental systems.  I built some test boxes for their Fans in the air conditioner system, and we are going through RTCA DO-160 testing right now.  I'm using PIC16F1788 processors to do high performance Pulse Width Modulation Speed Control for the blowers on the condensers, and evaporators.  RTCA Aircraft Qualification Testing is one of the hardest things I have ever done, and I am winning...

Gas Turbine Engines Rock!
http://black-dog-technologies.blogspot.com/2014/01/learjet-25d-job.html
Title: Re: The Bucking Magnet Motor
Post by: z.monkey on September 21, 2014, 11:16:56 AM
This is one of my test boxes, and my new Velleman Oscilloscope...