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Author Topic: potential energy  (Read 6751 times)

SPANG

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potential energy
« on: August 08, 2010, 04:22:56 PM »
Hi All,
       It is my concidered opinion that if anyone tries to build a perpetual motion machine, and it exhibits
potential energy somewhere in its design ----- IT WON'T WORK!
How CAN a perpetual motion machine (that its designer thinks will work), exhibit potential energy --------
when it is PERPETUAL?
This implies that potential energy has to be present, ALL THE TIME!
A perpetual motion machine CANNOT have potential energy, anywhere near it ----- BECAUSE it's perpetual.
This is of course an opinion ----- and I just might be wrong ----- but I don't think so!
BILL.
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exnihiloest

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Re: potential energy
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2010, 11:28:58 AM »
Quote from: SPANG on August 08, 2010, 04:22:56 PM
Hi All,
       It is my concidered opinion that if anyone tries to build a perpetual motion machine, and it exhibits
potential energy somewhere in its design ----- IT WON'T WORK!
...

You are right. There is a motion because a movable element "falls" from a high potential energy towards a lower potential energy (magnetic, electric or gravity). The potential difference is the cause of the movement. Therefore when the potential energy is the same at the begining and at the end, in order to repeat the cycle, there is no more reason for any movable element to move along the whole loop.

The typical case is the smot where a movable permanent magnet is "falling" in a low gradient of magnetic potential but is unable to return to its start point because it would have to "climb" again the same potential difference now located in an area named "the sticky point". The sticky point is just representing the same difference of magnetic potential as the other side of the path but on a much shorter distance.

The idea of looping a device based on a static potential difference is the most frequent error in free energy (permanent magnet motor, gravity wheels...).

Now the trick would be to change a potential at no price, or at price less than the energy that this potential difference could provide, principle named "regauging", for example by dynamically changing a parameter of the loop (like the permeability in Steorn's device). Conventional devices already exist and work on this principle (see "parametric motors"), but none is showing OU (including Steorn's device).

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Liberty

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Re: potential energy
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2010, 01:44:43 PM »
Quote from: exnihiloest on August 09, 2010, 11:28:58 AM
You are right. There is a motion because a movable element "falls" from a high potential energy towards a lower potential energy (magnetic, electric or gravity). The potential difference is the cause of the movement. Therefore when the potential energy is the same at the begining and at the end, in order to repeat the cycle, there is no more reason for any movable element to move along the whole loop.

The typical case is the smot where a movable permanent magnet is "falling" in a low gradient of magnetic potential but is unable to return to its start point because it would have to "climb" again the same potential difference now located in an area named "the sticky point". The sticky point is just representing the same difference of magnetic potential as the other side of the path but on a much shorter distance.

The idea of looping a device based on a static potential difference is the most frequent error in free energy (permanent magnet motor, gravity wheels...).

Now the trick would be to change a potential at no price, or at price less than the energy that this potential difference could provide, principle named "regauging", for example by dynamically changing a parameter of the loop (like the permeability in Steorn's device). Conventional devices already exist and work on this principle (see "parametric motors"), but none is showing OU (including Steorn's device).

This appears to be possible in a permanent magnet motor with power assist using power saving methods.
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SPANG

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Re: potential energy
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2010, 01:55:51 PM »
I agree entirely with you sir;   PERPERPETUAL MOTION = NO POTENTIAL ENERGY!
I must say, it's quite comforting to know there are some people 'out there', who actualy
THINK!  My guess is, there are many 'like minded' folk 'out there', who won't make a 'post',
'just in case they're wrong' ----- how stupid can you get? If you're wrong ----- you're
wrong. So what?
Speak up, and be counted!
BILL.
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Alexioco

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Re: potential energy
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2010, 09:47:51 PM »
That sounds quite interesting, so say that a weight swings down from the top of a wheel, its potential energy decreases as it gets lower because the closer to the bottom the weight gets, the less distance it has to drop. In other words, the shorter the drop, the lesser potential energy. I suppose its the same with that a light weight can lift a heavy weight when the light weight can drop faster, like that of leonardo da vincis pulley arangement or the off balance seesaw. Its not the position of the weights that cause the lift, its the speed difference between the two weights. Just like a weight swinging down a wheel, its starting position is not so important because as it drops, it covers all possible starting positions anyway so perpetual motion would not be gained from a dropping weight, but from a downward acceleration greater than gravity so as the weight flies back up, its slightly slower than when it dropped therefore completing the loop? Just like the difference of speed between the heavy and light weight.

In other words, a weight needs to drop down a wheel faster than gravity pulls, then it can lift back up to the top as normal and make it over.

If this is wrong, please correct me.

Alex
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 10:18:56 PM by Alexioco »
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sparks

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Re: potential energy
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2010, 02:22:53 AM »
  In a pendulum it is all potential energy.  Because mass in motion has inertia which of course is just another form of potential energy.  As the weight is at its lowest point it's velocity and therefore its inertia is at its greatest.  There is conservation of inertia at work as bearings are heated metals or ropes are stressed air is displaced.  That is why the pendulum will never return to same heigth.  Energy is lost from the system due to friction.  If each and every time the pendulum came to rest a small amount of weight was added to it and the same weight removed at the bottom of the arc then you would have a perpectual machine.  There are a group of people doing this.  They pump water to the top of a tower add it to the air that is at rest above the ground and have it drop through a turbine.  The gain is from solar of course because that is what got the air light enough to rise in the first place.  The water acts like a pendulum the mass of air the weight added when the water is at rest high up in the tower.
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SPANG

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Re: potential energy
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2010, 03:32:46 AM »
Alexioco,
           All I'm saying is: a perpetual motion machine, that is
CONSTANTLY supplied with a downward force, WILL WORK!
A device that uses weights as its source of power, will NOT
work, because each weight will have some form of potential
energy  ----- unless, each individual weight is connected
in some way ----- like to a chain, for instance ----- then it
becomes a CONSTANT supply of downward force ----- NO
POTENTIAL ENERGY!
Unfortunately, a perpetual motion machine, has yet to be
built, to either prove or disprove, my theory!
Up untill now, NO perpetual motion machine has been built!
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SPANG

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Re: potential energy
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 04:40:04 PM »
Correct, P-Motion,
                         If an object is CONSTANTLY moving -----
it can have NO potential energy!
It is totaly imposible!
BILL.
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SPANG

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Re: potential energy
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2010, 01:41:44 AM »
 Jim,
        Thanks for your reply.
With regard to the drawing you submitted;  It looks as if the energy gained from the weight dropping,
might be lost as the rotating wheel tries to bring the weight back to its starting position. Your drawing
is lacking in detail ------------ the type of detail, that would give me more clues to make a deffinate
decission with.  If you could be more specific (more detail), I would be in a better position to make the
neccessary diagnosis!
GOOD LUCK.

BILL.
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SPANG

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Re: potential energy
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2010, 02:22:09 AM »
SPARKS,
           There is something I must say about your pendulum analysis;  If a pendulum has a piece of its
weight removed, it might well 'overbalance' ----- but it would NOT be a pendulum any more ----- it would become a perpetual motion machine!  If it becomes a perpetual motion machine, then it would contain NO
potential energy ----- it does not stop and start, as a 'true' pendulum does. For potential energy to exist, it must have a BEGINING. In the case of a perpetual motion machine, it is CONSTANTLY rotating, and therfore contains no potential energy!
 All perpetual motion machines contain potential energy TO START WITH, but once started, contain no potential energy.
BILL.
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sparks

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Re: potential energy
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2010, 06:53:04 AM »
  @spang


        You are correct in seperating the two forms of energy.  I was trying to convey the idea that kinetic energy or something in motion is also a scource of energy that has the potential for conversion into other forms of energy.   I just cant get over the way Tarzan of the Jungle travelled on the vines.  Traveling from station to station converting his initial climb into transverse motion.  He always had to tieoff the initital vine and walk up a small ramp to overcome losses in the transportation system but it sure beat walking.  If he grabbed up something like a glass of water at each station and let her go at the bottom then he would find it unecessary to walk up the ramp.  His total translation velocity would be increased also.  Pretty much like an old water driven grist mill wheel works.  Say your perpectual motion machine somehow opens and closes a chamber.  Air is allowed to enter this chamber at the top of the wheel.  At the bottom of the wheel the chamber is opened and the air is slung out of the chamber.  Then the chamber is closed for the rise and opened again at the epogee.  The evacuated chamber would be lighter than the full chamber and the motion would be perpecutal.  The machine of course very intricate but theoretically doable.
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