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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: geotron on August 10, 2010, 03:38:43 AM
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I've finally managed to get the entire thing together in one piece, begun
in a separate thread ( Gray's Tube Build - Progressive (http://"http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9153.0") ). Although, its
experiencing some kind of malfunction. The video below will accurately
show what is happening - hopefully its just something like a nonfunctioning
diode, or perhaps I've inadvertently connected it in reverse?
The markings on the diode - two straight bands and a wavy line, indicated
to me that it should be connected with these markings on the side that
emits the pulsed 12v into the tube.
Thoughts & ideas definitely welcome.
< Video Link > - Youtube (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7TVvsCgnaA")
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The right video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7TVvsCgnaA
Can you post the schematic of your work?
Jesus
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Yes, here it is. I followed the diagram drawn by Bedini, shown
here as well.
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Thank you @geotron!
I like the interruptor you did with a fan.
Jesus
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This will show the functional portion of what is now in place -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEvk3q2KPZw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEvk3q2KPZw)
Due to a substantial rate of decline in voltage with this 30kv
diode, the burst of energy is not yet present.
After a bit of searching, I've found that the max foward voltage drop of the
diode is 55V, so I'll have to find some way to convert it up past this value.
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For the benefit of all.
Jesus
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzhYJM1eXiU&feature=channel7
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3235-gray-tube-replication-56.html
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At this point, the following is my best idea for how to continue
with the building of this device. The dimensions will be medium
size to begin with, 12inch (300mm) wide x 6in tall x 4in.
I'll find a lid this size and begin covering it with vertical
rows of metal foil rolled with an insulator. They'll be attached
with either rtv or cement, and then wired up so they alternate
between supply and return. The dielectric liquid will be either
Mineral or Castor oil.
The 12v from the battery will be pulsed into a transformer and then
cascaded, constituting the Radiant Charger as shown below.
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Geotron,
Have fun with your capacitors. Looks like they should work.
Looking at the circuit, what triggers S2?
Also:
"Grid spacing from the rods must be further than distance needed for C1 dielectric breakdown over air"
This sounds like there isn't any spark from the rods to the grid.
Are you planning to use inductive coupling between the grid and the arc, or capacitive coupling between the grid and the rods?
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This capacitor build will be ultra-experimental, as I've got
little in the way of knowledge on how to design one for use with
a particular voltage. The way to calculate capacitance is
straightfoward - I've included this below.
The other components still needing work at this point are the
10KV high-voltage supply, as well as the electromagnetic motor
portion, likely to be a design by Joseph Newman for spinning
a heavy driveshaft.
Currently I'm in the process of building a coil-winder with the
help of a sewing machine motor for a Bedini generator... shouldn't
take too long to complete, and will serve many a purpose for
other projects, including this one eventually.
In the process of constructing this capacitor, I may do some small
preliminary builds on a miniature scale in order to establish
a working theory. I encourage anyone with experience in this area
to share their knowledge, perhaps those who have already built
and tested their own capacitor designs.
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There's a couple of ways to build a capacitor. You can roll up some sheets of plastic and foil, or you can stack them up with alternating layers of foil coming out on one side, the rest on the other side. Then crimp all the foil together on each side. Either way, putting it in oil is a good idea, since a small air pocket can cause a blowout due to rf heating. When you first add the oil, it's a good idea to 'burn it in' by running it at a lower AC voltage for a half hour, so the vibrations can shake loose all the air on the vertical plates.
The choice of dielectric is easy with the stacked version, since Crystal Clear sheet protectors for typing paper is a good HV insulator. At 10 kV you only need 3 or 4 layers between each piece of foil, with a 3/4" boundary of plastic around the edges of the foil. This is the same with the roll up version, but for that you need to tape the clear plastic strips you cut from the sheet protectors together with Crystal Clear shipping tape, which is the same type of plastic. Then you can have some really long strips to roll up. Either way, be sure your work surface is clean of dust and lint. With the rolled cap, there has to be adequate insulation between the outside of one piece of foil and the other polarity foil you're wrapping around it. If your cap blows out, just open it up and tape the burn holes on both sides of the dielectric, with more tape over the adjacent part of the foil.
When you calculate the value of your caps, they don't have to be really big. The Great Dr. Tesla told us that a really small capacitor operating at a really high frequency can transmit much more energy than a big cap at a low frequency. Edwin Gray did say that his circuit is a high frequency environment, so if your cap is too big you'll need a heavy power supply to drive it in resonance. And remember, Joules equals Voltage squared times half of the capacitance. Number of kilo Volts times half the number of micro Farads. More voltage needs less capacitance.
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What an interesting technique Zarko - my plan was to use the
oil itself as the insulating dielectric, while using entire rolled
up foil cylinders as the anodes + cathodes. It would mean using
an insulating film, or paper on each roll and have the entire thing
as either an anode or cathode, then separated from the others by
the dielectric fluid. ? I'll try both ways.
My plan for the high-voltage supply involves the use of an
integrated chip to time the 12v across a transistor into the
transformers and cascade multiplier.
The way the diodes are facing seems abnormal to me, although
it is identical to the way it is shown on one of my reference
diagrams. I've usually seen these with the diodes facing the
direction of flow out of the high voltage side.
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Your cascade circuit looks alright to me. It's just a question of which polarity you want on the output. As you show it, the top plate of the cap by the converter tube will be positive.
But your rolled up cylinder caps will have a very small value, no more than a couple of pico Farads. (A pico Farad is a millionth of a micro Farad, while a nano Farad is a thousandths of a micro Farad.) The sheets need to be parallel along their entire surface area. Even then the primary factor is how close you can get them. Oil by itself won't work at HV with close spacing, so the film between the plates has to withstand most of the potential.
Also, the Overshoot Switch has to have a constant arc to be able to work fast enough if you get a destructive spike. This constant arc is actually parallel to the arc in the Tube, since both sides of the power supply is connected to both ends of each arc.
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If I understand correctly, the capacitor's output will be directed
into the bridge rectifier and then the tube where it will collide
with the blocking diode and charge the mesh until a pulse from the
low-voltage side occurs and radiates it away into the coils.
Concerning the use of plastic insulator material, I've saved a
couple of 18in fluorescent bulb lenses that are roughly 1.5mm thick.
Made into short strips and stacked with layers of metal foil, I'm
thinking it might get me a least a small radiant event. They are
ridged on one side, textured for design, adding small empty spaces
where the foil will not touch.
Using a dielectric oil present between thin strips of metal suspended
upsidedown into a container, the distance between them adjusted to
a certain distance, my impression is that it might increase the amount
of energy it would be capable of holding. Once I find some strips
of sheet metal or the like, I'll give it a go... really unlikely to work?
geotron
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If I understand correctly, the capacitor's output will be directed
into the bridge rectifier and then the tube where it will collide
with the blocking diode and charge the mesh until a pulse from the
low-voltage side occurs and radiates it away into the coils.
Concerning the use of plastic insulator material, I've saved a
couple of 18in fluorescent bulb lenses that are roughly 1.5mm thick.
Made into short strips and stacked with layers of metal foil, I'm
thinking it might get me a least a small radiant event. They are
ridged on one side, textured for design, adding small empty spaces
where the foil will not touch.
Using a dielectric oil present between thin strips of metal suspended
upsidedown into a container, the distance between them adjusted to
a certain distance, my impression is that it might increase the amount
of energy it would be capable of holding. Once I find some strips
of sheet metal or the like, I'll give it a go... really unlikely to work?
geotron
This probably won't work, based on the circuit in your post #9. That circuit was experimental only and was replaced a couple months later by a completely different circuit, shown here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6675.0
and here:
http://www.esmhome.org/library/edwin_gray/plasmacomp.jpg
The new circuit uses the recovery cap to power the load and there IS a spark from the grid to the rod, due to the much higher trigger voltage from the ignition coil.
He's also charging the caps with a second power supply, which is a MW oven transformer at 1 kV. See his explanation here:
http://www.energeticforum.com/60603-post1641.html
But if you want to try your idea you can get a roll of aluminum flashing for under $20.
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Hi Geotron,
That's a very ingenious triggered spark gap you show in your post #13. With a non connected grid the voltage on the outer surface will increase when the charge on the rod is neutralized. It still has the same amount of charge, with voltage related to both the charge and the capacitance. After the center rod is neutralized the grid becomes a single terminal capacitor, with less capacitance than it had relative to the rod, so the voltage will be higher.
That reverse diode you show by the end of the converter tube is part of Gotoluc's Water SparkPlug circuit. This is the key to making YOUR circuit work. The WSP plasma burst occurs between the rods in the tube, and this plasma shorts out the inside of your non connected grid to the rod, leaving only the charge on the outside of the grid. This provides the higher voltage pulse you need to trigger your spark gap.
Also read this message:
http://www.energeticforum.com/62165-post1674.html
Aaron says: "the voltage from another source can even go backwards through a diode"
So you'll have to use a cap in the circuit which is charged from a different power supply.
If the plasma burst between the rods doesn't short out the grid, use a smaller grid. Or you can add a third electrode from the inside of the grid down towards the plasma spark, like the three point arc switch shown elsewhere as an "Ed Gray Test Circuit". With the arc switch INSIDE the tube the conversion tube also becomes a "switching element".
If you try this approach I think your circuit will work. Like I say, it's very ingenious.
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To begin with I'll likely experiment with easier to obtain
voltages... I've attached a timer circuit diagram as well, designed
by J.Bedini.
I'll have to learn more about how the timing mechanism works, as
well as find a suitable transistor able to withstand the energy
passing through it from the battery.
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Some builders like to use 2N3055 transistors.
Are you planning to put magnets on your armature?
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The part you're indicating as the armature; providing its the
electrode-tube portion, as I've heard tell of systems featuring
this configuration - Eventually I may integrate some kind of
magnetic fields with it, although to what purpose this would
serve I'm still in the dark.
Many thanks for your help I might add, and wow - lots of
interesting stuff !
After going over ... information on voltage multipliers, it
gives me uncertain thoughts that my diodes are facing the correct
direction in my post above on the HV multiplier side. The way
its shown appears to supply a negative potential rather than a
positive one - a vacancy of electrons VS a surplus, or the literal
interpretation of negatively charged electrons being emitted from
the (-) terminal?
It appears that I've left out the spark gap portion on the output
from the tube and a suitable diode, revised below - initally it
will have an ignition coil in place of the cascade multiplier.
I've been thinking about an 80v .1uF on the LV side with a
75v zener diode, 1000v rectifier diode combination.
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A layout and connection detail for the pulse timer
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Geotron,
With the full wave rectifier the output polarity of your cascade circuit won't matter. The bridge rectifier will still channel the charges as you've shown, either way. But the input polarity to the cascade can matter. If you build it and find it doesn't work you'll have to reverse the input wires on the transformer.
And I'm thinking the 75V zener will blow if you put a thousand volts to it.
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It seems I'm going to have to perform some additional research
on positive VS negative voltage ... does it have to do with how the
waveform looks?
The reason I've shown the Zener diode appearing after the capacitor
is due to something brought up in a discussion elsewhere on Bedini's
N-Pole Motor design, and how it might be changed to allow collection
of b-EMF.
nievesoliveras first suggested it [link] (http://"http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9648.msg254410#msg254410"), using the Zener diode to
prevent the capacitor from discharging until it is filled up.
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There's a growing list of parts I'm considering to obtain for this
project - although now the question faces me of how to properly
adjust the output of an ignition coil to a certain value, in this
case 1000v, as it will of course have to match 1kv diodes and
capacitors.
I'm aware now that the output of such a coil depends on the
rate at which it is pulsed... a longer duration providing a higher
inductance and therefore higher voltage.
Would using a spare 1000v diode as a test subject allow me to
increment the voltage until it was found to cause it to malfunction,
setting a visual dial position on the potentiometer? I'm not
familiar with how a diode breaks under load, whether it fuses open
or closed.
The multimeter I've got is analog and limited to 500VDC, so perhaps
a better digital one is in order.
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The output of an ignition coil also depends on the input voltage. You can control this with a rheostat. On a scope the positive voltage is above the base line, with the negative below it.
My experience with diodes is that when they blow they become conductive in both directions. You can use two or more in series for a higher voltage.
You can read higher voltages with your meter if you have a few resisters in series and take the reading across only one of them
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In light of simplicity, I've opted to do away with the low-voltage
capacitor and build it in the original way it was shown by Bedini
and others. Aaron Murakami posted the following blurb on how it
works, which influenced my decision.
Working of the Gray Tube
This will put what I'm saying into context with something that many people have
studied but I am not sure anyone gets it. Many are convinced in all the free electron
concepts in the Gray Tube, etc... McGratten mailed me a package about 7 years ago
with that explanation but I always saw it happening in a different way.
The Gray Tube has a low voltage rod and high voltage rod. Low voltage rod has a diode
on it that has the cathode/emitter pointed towards the gap. Low voltage source can be
any low voltage source and Gray showed he used a 12v battery...the neg of that battery
is connected to the neg of the HV capacitor at 3000-4000 volts and a few uf's. The + of
the hv source goes to the hv rod.
(-)12vdc(+)diode->(gap)(+)3000vdc(-)
I have made the Gray tube analogy to the spark method and most have automatically thought
that they look at 2 gaps and think they serve the same purpose. I'll show you why the 2
gaps have nothing to do with each other but why they are making the same effect. It is
necessary to actually understand how the Gray tube works in order to see what the real
analogies to the spark plug circuit are.
When the low voltage side is connected by commutator, whatever...the hv source immediately
sees path to ground...it sees that the diode is open and has conductivity to the low
voltage source which has conductivity to ground which is its own ground...it jumps and as
soon as it moves through the diode for a small unit of time, the diode slams shut....only
a small fraction of the hv potential made it through.
That hv potential from the cap slams against the diode and compresses against it very
strongly forcing it to explode 90 degrees from the wire outwards... the only other path
to ground it by going to the grids...through the electromagnet that pulses a magnet or
other electromagnet to provide motive force on a motor to a + on another low voltage
source and that lv source has a - that winds up being connected back to the hv -'s.
Take a balloon and push it flat against a wall. It compresses and the contents of the
balloon wind up exploding 90 degrees perpendicular to the direction of original propagation.
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Only an little help...
@Zarko
your Reply19
With 1 pcs BFY51 you can never drive
1 (or more) 2N3055 in fully satuaration (in fully avaiable current)
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@ Geotron
Reply 18,20,23
An combination from (Zener-)Diode with an Condensor in Seies, will NOT WORK.
IF... The Condensor charged up after one cycle.
An find the end of work ....
Pese
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Only an little help...
@Zarko
your Reply19
With 1 pcs BFY51 you can never drive
1 (or more) 2N3055 in fully satuaration (in fully avaiable current)
Pese
@Pese: Thanks for the help. Perhaps you could help a little more and post a circuit which WILL work at saturation?
@Geotron: Keep in mind that when Murakami talks about low voltage he's referring to a NEGATIVE high voltage. Low voltage is defined as being 250 Volts or less. A negative 1,000 Volts is NOT low voltage, even after you subtract 12 V. from the battery. But do build your experiment. Murakami switched to a different approach but maybe you can still get the old circuit to work.
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Little help for all.
please give attention to the datasheets of semiconductors.
example 2n3055 have an gain af (i belive it) from 20 at 4 Amps.
but at 10 Amps only from 5 !!
So you must drive with 2 Amps in the base of ONE 2n3055 to have
clollector currents of 10 Amps.
Next you will give attention to the Vce(sat)
Satuartion Voltage between C an E.
If this is 2volts or 5 . then this Voltage ist lost to become the
fulle supply voltage to the load.
If you take 4 pcs 2N3055 in paralell, this is fine.
The load current will distributed to 4 transistors,
so the bedd collector current (each) is lower
als the gain is higher (because lower IC. and Vce(sat)
is also better. So the LOAD becomes mor power.
BUT you must drive this with 4 time base currents.
so you will see , if the =,8 or 1,0 Amp BFY51 is
strong enough to drive it, because, the gain of
such transistors (if you work on the end of his
(limits) is also only 10, with Vce(sat) from most 1,0Volts
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diode + condensor.
You will become in head , the circuit from an small
power supply.
Source (DC or AC . added an diode .
on the outut lead of diode. an condensor between out an ground.
So the current will flow an short time - TO CHARGE te Condensor.
Nothing wore will follow, if you not decharge the condensor wih
an short or with an LOAD on it.
I think ALL will understand this now, and find beter ways.
Gustav Pese
www.alt-nrg.de/pppp
englisch and german link collections
(collected myself sine 2002)
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Added:
I know, the selled papers (instructions)to rebuild /reconstruct ED GRAYs device, 4 yers ago.
I understad, that the instruction have no value.
also the type of tube as shown in circuit, is not
avaiable. I dont belived this.
Now : I find in another forum following:
With Gray you have to be careful, because after his engineer Marvin Cole, the real inventor of Grays stuff, dissappeared, they never were able to replicate their earlier succes, because they didn't understand how the HF, HV spark gap oscillator worked. Basically that delivers you the same kind of spikes as Bedini shows, only very high voltage and very high frequency. So, the "LV" rod gives you the oscillating signal, the HV rod is at HV DC. The grid and the "LV" rod are basically a capacitor, which is one of the high pass filter caps. Component 38 is the other. And everything in between the "LV" rod, all the way trough the commutator and such should be considered a shortcut in your analysis. See here: Resonating TF using Bedini circuit
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If you "googl-ing" an part of this txt, you find the fully article (if necessary)
So you and other reader, will give a little attention.
GIVE not any money for instruction and plans !!
GP
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Thank You Gustav!!
You have certainly explained how to use the transistors!
But I don't believe the article is correct that the LV rod is a capacitor with the grid. The picture of the Tube in the patent shows the grid around the HV rod ONLY. And Gray says the arc "electrostatically couples" with the grid. He doesn't say anything about capacitive coupling. And he ALWAYS uses the word "couple" to mean "connect".
The reason Hackenberger couldn't replicate the earlier success was because the first thing he did was rewind all the motor coils with bigger wire. With positive potential only, little wires don't burn out, but give much more power because there's a lot more amp turns.
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Thank You Gustav!!
You have certainly explained how to use the transistors!
But I don't believe the article is correct that the LV rod is a capacitor with the grid. The picture of the Tube in the patent shows the grid around the HV rod ONLY. And Gray says the arc "electrostatically couples" with the grid. He doesn't say anything about capacitive coupling. And he ALWAYS uses the word "couple" to mean "connect".
The reason Hackenberger couldn't replicate the earlier success was because the first thing he did was rewind all the motor coils with bigger wire. With positive potential only, little wires don't burn out, but give much more power because there's a lot more amp turns.
Fin, that is understand.
Jed the gray, device , the condensor is in other function.
Waht i will explain: Above shematics diodes zener caps in serie is another mind, that i tried to transferre in engisch words and sense. ONLY AC will transferred (near) correctly over condensors.
(half waves , or unsemetrica half waves -over zeers- ,
will only charge up an cap with DC.
(an zener with (Example) 0,7volt (one side) 7 volt (other direction), will transferre about 2 volt ac to the cap,
IF the Input (AC) to this circuit was 10volts.
Possibly its now better to understend. otherwise i will
do small handwritten schematics for you
Gustav
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There's been quite a bit of discussion about Gray's motor operating in resonance. But this concept of high frequency oscillations is in conflict with Edwin's statement that the magnetic field is oriented 360 degrees. Even John Bedini shows the North pole field on the side of the coil, rather than one end. This kind of field can only be produced by unidirectional positive pulses.
@Gustav: If Gray used a vacuum tube for his diode, my question is if this can act as a zener?
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There's been quite a bit of discussion about Gray's motor operating in resonance. But this concept of high frequency oscillations is in conflict with Edwin's statement that the magnetic field is oriented 360 degrees. Even John Bedini shows the North pole field on the side of the coil, rather than one end. This kind of field can only be produced by unidirectional positive pulses.
@Gustav: If Gray used a vacuum tube for his diode, my question is if this can act as a zener?
Tube can have an avalanche effect , in the region of
maximim breckdown limits.
also gas filled aswell mercury-vapor filed diodes , even tyratron (like tyrisors or scr) , hae this
effect.
This info will help you
ustav
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Tube can have an avalanche effect , in the region of
maximim breckdown limits.
also gas filled aswell mercury-vapor filed diodes , even tyratron (like tyrisors or scr) , hae this
effect.
This info will help you
ustav
I agree there can be an avalanche effect - inside the motor itself as the static is stretched across the plastic. An avalanche here would increase the "recovery" energy. Any electron cascade within the Tube would require electrons to be emitted from the positive rod.
Here's what Edwin says (Patent #4661747, coulmn 3, lines 54 to 58}:
In this invention, a high-voltage, high-current, short duration energy pulse is applied to the inductive load by the conversion element. This element makes possible the use of certain of that energy impressed within an arc across a spark gap
The certain energy he's talking about is the static from the capacitor, as this energy expands around the arc to touch the end of the grid. Shorting the grid to the HV anode.
Also (column 4, lines 39 to 41):
The energy content of the high energy pulse is electrostatically coupled to the conversion grids 34 of the conversion element.
The energy of the pulse is connected to the grid through the electrostatic sheath around the spark. This energy is stored on the grid momentarily, then transferred to the load. The amount of energy in the pulse depends on how long the grid is shorted to the rod, before the vacuum tube switch is turned off. Seems simple enough to me.
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Inside Gay tube was inert gas, probably Argon.The normalize and spread effect because inert gas is a good conductor of radiant energy.