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Author Topic: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build  (Read 21842 times)

Offline geotron

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Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« on: August 10, 2010, 03:38:43 AM »
I've finally managed to get the entire thing together in one piece, begun
in a separate thread ( Gray's Tube Build - Progressive ).  Although, its
experiencing some kind of malfunction.  The video below will accurately
show what is happening - hopefully its just something like a nonfunctioning
diode, or perhaps I've inadvertently connected it in reverse?

The markings on the diode - two straight bands and a wavy line, indicated
to me that it should be connected with these markings on the side that
emits the pulsed 12v into the tube.

Thoughts & ideas definitely welcome.

< Video Link > - Youtube

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Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« on: August 10, 2010, 03:38:43 AM »

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2010, 03:54:38 PM »
The right video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7TVvsCgnaA

Can you post the schematic of your work?

Jesus

Offline geotron

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 12:42:38 AM »
Yes, here it is.  I followed the diagram drawn by Bedini, shown
here as well.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 08:00:43 AM by geotron »

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 12:42:38 AM »
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Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 12:52:56 AM »
Thank you @geotron!

I like the interruptor you did with a fan.

Jesus

Offline geotron

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 01:50:44 AM »
This will show the functional portion of what is now in place -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEvk3q2KPZw

Due to a substantial rate of decline in voltage with this 30kv
diode, the burst of energy is not yet present.

After a bit of searching, I've found that the max foward voltage drop of the
diode is 55V, so I'll have to find some way to convert it up past this value.

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 01:50:44 AM »
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Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2010, 03:37:45 AM »
For the benefit of all.

Jesus

Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 05:15:11 AM »
You've got the diode backwards.  The cathode has to point at the capacitor's negative side to conduct the HV.  Even in Gray's Ignitron Coil Popping circuit, the diode's cathode points at the battery's positive pole:

If Gray had the diode backwards in his Patent, that would invalidate the patent.  Also, Bedini shows the electrons moving from the positive central rod to the negative grid, and THAT isn't going to happen.

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 05:15:11 AM »
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Offline Jerry Volland

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2010, 07:10:30 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzhYJM1eXiU&feature=channel7

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3235-gray-tube-replication-56.html
This same guy posted a circuit to this forum which doesn't have ANY blocking diode.  (The 5kV dual polarity, three point discharge.)

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6675.msg153853;topicseen

If a reverse diode IS used it will only produce a momentary very short, weak spark.  (Unless a higher voltage ignition coil is used.)  This is not what Gray says in the patent:  for more or less power to the motor, the dwell of the interrupter can be changed, to change the duration of the "stimulating spark" inside the Tube.  The dwell of a momentary spark produced by a Step Recovery Diode effect can't be lengthened.  Gray says this diode is to prevent reverse current from arcing between the interrupter contacts.  If you reverse the diode, it blocks forwards HV, not reverse current.

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2010, 07:10:30 PM »
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Offline geotron

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2010, 09:09:27 AM »
At this point, the following is my best idea for how to continue
with the building of this device.  The dimensions will be medium
size to begin with, 12inch (300mm) wide x 6in tall x 4in.

I'll find a lid this size and begin covering it with vertical
rows of metal foil rolled with an insulator.  They'll be attached
with either rtv or cement, and then wired up so they alternate
between supply and return.  The dielectric liquid will be either
Mineral or Castor oil.

The 12v from the battery will be pulsed into a transformer and then
cascaded, constituting the Radiant Charger as shown below.

Offline Zarko

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2010, 03:41:37 AM »
Geotron,

Have fun with your capacitors.  Looks like they should work.

Looking at the circuit, what triggers S2?

Also:

"Grid spacing from the rods must be further than distance needed for C1 dielectric breakdown over air"

This sounds like there isn't any spark from the rods to the grid.

Are you planning to use inductive coupling between the grid and the arc, or capacitive coupling between the grid and the rods?

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2010, 03:41:37 AM »
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Offline geotron

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2010, 07:30:33 AM »
This capacitor build will be ultra-experimental, as I've got
little in the way of knowledge on how to design one for use with
a particular voltage.  The way to calculate capacitance is
straightfoward - I've included this below.

The other components still needing work at this point are the
10KV high-voltage supply, as well as the electromagnetic motor
portion, likely to be a design by Joseph Newman for spinning
a heavy driveshaft.

Currently I'm in the process of building a coil-winder with the
help of a sewing machine motor for a Bedini generator... shouldn't
take too long to complete, and will serve many a purpose for
other projects, including this one eventually.

In the process of constructing this capacitor, I may do some small
preliminary builds on a miniature scale in order to establish
a working theory.  I encourage anyone with experience in this area
to share their knowledge, perhaps those who have already built
and tested their own capacitor designs.

Offline Zarko

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2010, 07:28:44 PM »
There's a couple of ways to build a capacitor.  You can roll up some sheets of plastic and foil, or you can stack them up with alternating layers of foil coming out on one side, the rest on the other side.  Then crimp all the foil together on each side.  Either way, putting it in oil is a good idea, since a small air pocket can cause a blowout due to rf heating.  When you first add the oil, it's a good idea to 'burn it in' by running it at a lower AC voltage for a half hour, so the vibrations can shake loose all the air on the vertical plates.

The choice of dielectric is easy with the stacked version, since Crystal Clear sheet protectors for typing paper is a good HV insulator.  At 10 kV you only need 3 or 4 layers between each piece of foil, with a 3/4" boundary of plastic around the edges of the foil.  This is the same with the roll up version, but for that you need to tape the clear plastic strips you cut from the sheet protectors together with Crystal Clear shipping tape, which is the same type of plastic.  Then you can have some really long strips to roll up.  Either way, be sure your work surface is clean of dust and lint.  With the rolled cap, there has to be adequate insulation between the outside of one piece of foil and the other polarity foil you're wrapping around it.  If your cap blows out, just open it up and tape the burn holes on both sides of the dielectric, with more tape over the adjacent part of the foil.

When you calculate the value of your caps, they don't have to be really big.  The Great Dr. Tesla told us that a really small capacitor operating at a really high frequency can transmit much more energy than a big cap at a low frequency.  Edwin Gray did say that his circuit is a high frequency environment, so if your cap is too big you'll need a heavy power supply to drive it in resonance.  And remember, Joules equals Voltage squared times half of the capacitance.  Number of kilo Volts times half the number of micro Farads.  More voltage needs less capacitance.

Offline geotron

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2010, 10:38:52 AM »
What an interesting technique Zarko - my plan was to use the
oil itself as the insulating dielectric, while using entire rolled
up foil cylinders as the anodes + cathodes.  It would mean using
an insulating film, or paper on each roll and have the entire thing
as either an anode or cathode, then separated from the others by
the dielectric fluid.  ?  I'll try both ways.

My plan for the high-voltage supply involves the use of an
integrated chip to time the 12v across a transistor into the
transformers and cascade multiplier.

The way the diodes are facing seems abnormal to me, although
it is identical to the way it is shown on one of my reference
diagrams.  I've usually seen these with the diodes facing the
direction of flow out of the high voltage side. 

Offline Zarko

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Re: Finalizing Ed Gray's System Build
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2010, 12:45:35 AM »
Your cascade circuit looks alright to me.  It's just a question of which polarity you want on the output.  As you show it, the top plate of the cap by the converter tube will be positive.

But your rolled up cylinder caps will have a very small value, no more than a couple of pico Farads.  (A pico Farad is a millionth of a micro Farad, while a nano Farad is a thousandths of a micro Farad.)  The sheets need to be parallel along their entire surface area.  Even then the primary factor is how close you can get them.  Oil by itself won't work at HV with close spacing, so the film between the plates has to withstand most of the potential.

Also, the Overshoot Switch has to have a constant arc to be able to work fast enough if you get a destructive spike.  This constant arc is actually parallel to the arc in the Tube, since both sides of the power supply is connected to both ends of each arc.

 

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