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Author Topic: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project  (Read 59284 times)

h2o2go

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2005, 03:41:14 PM »
Ken, All
I have pondered the possibilities of a turbocharger as part of an H2(O2) system and have not abandoned the idea but I am not sure a conventional application holds any answers ???
A turbocharger (or supercharger) forces more air (20% Oxy) into the charge, requiring more fuel to maintain the Stociometric A/F ratio.? This increases Volumetric Efficiency but not economy directly.
Our problem is: not enough fuel for normally aspirated conditions.

Second Thought................. (totally different)
Since we have a large volume drop with recombination (sucking exhaust), someone said 1000:1(?) I have been wondering how we could harness that energy ???? I am reminded that the first internal combustion engines were Atmospheric Engines.? I am going to go back and understand how they worked better and see where my weird thought processes take me.?
Anyone who wants to go along ......... jump in ;D

Dave

kenbo0422

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2005, 09:44:20 PM »
Just another thought after thinking about your 1000:1 recombination problem....  I'm assuming this is a 4 cycle type of motor.   If so, why not a combination 4 / 2 stroke setup.  The only modification I'm proposing would be a port in the lower cylinder wall to allow air in before the upstroke of exhaust.  Once the engine is up to operating temperature this may also aid in water removal during the exhaust stroke.  In order to keep atmospheric gases out during the intake phase, use a reed valve or some such device to only open when the vacuum is present.

rlm555339

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2005, 06:37:33 AM »
It sounds like a 2 cycle motor would work better if one could figure out how to lube it while running.  I like the extra hole in the bottom of the stoke idea..........(wonder how to do that without screwing up the motor?)  You can tell I'm not a mechanic, huh?   ;D

Speaking of exhaust, I joined the Yahoo egaspower group and they said one person was having problems with exhaust valve getting too hot.  ?????  (I guess his machine runs or something)  In our discussions here, we have determined that the exhaust sucks.  This does not compute.  Now I'm really confused.  How can the exhaust valve get hot if it handles incoming air?

But........I'll worry about that if and when I ever get more than 5 seconds running time out of it.  I have had an idea or two thrown my way so it's just a matter of implementing them and see what happens.

I appreciate all the help and ideas.

kenbo0422

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2005, 02:04:09 PM »
One more note about H2 water engines....  The one idea that I've seen that seems to make sense (since the H2 / 02 is hard to manufacture fast enough) is one I read about that uses an electrolysis setup whereby the gases produced are an additive to the normal intake to the engine.  I believe one design (yes, the Ma'at or whatever, which is more complicated than needed, I think) uses a frequency applied to the electrodes.  The only reason I can see for this is to have an external input from the rpm of the engine to regulate the frequency, thus producing gas proportional to the need of the engine.  The claims in this case are mileage increases due to the H2 being incorporated into the burning process at a set percentage.  Yes, Ron, the Ma'at is stupid when it comes to electrolysis, DC is better.  I'm wondering though, if it isn't supposed to be used (the frequency) as a 'throttling' device, like a duty cycle on an electric motor speed controller....   ???

christo_g

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2005, 08:08:45 PM »
Hi All,

I've been working on splitting H2O and would like to take some part in this discussion. My opinion is that we should not dismiss the pulsed (high) frequency low amps, low volts electrolysis.

I am going over Stenley Meyer's patents (4,936,961; 4,798,661 and others) and going to try to replicate his devices. Looks like that Ma?as water car is taken from these patents too, but I think they are missing the patent?s trade secret. In Meyer?s patent the exact frequency is shown as 0Hz, as well as some other things are missing, but as I see it, there should be something in this. As far as I know, the patents are granted after witnessing the effect.

Meyer is using the water as a dielectric in a cap, so this helps in having low Amps, low Volts electrolysis (the claims, as far as I know, are for about 0.5A and 45V). By my opinion, the thing is to have a LC circuit in a resonance frequency. As water may have different resistance depending on its pureness, the cap will change, so he is using an additional variable inductor/coil to achieve the resonance (it could be done with different schematic for auto resonance). My guess is that the LC?s resonance frequency?s wave length needs to match the length of the water molecule or actually one of its harmonics. This way we can achieve a resonance in the water itself - have the molecules orientate and following splitting after enough charge build up in the ?dielectric?. It may also need to have exact distance between the electrodes to match that frequency?s wave length (harmonic).

I am not a chemist nor I am deep in electronics (however an electrical engineer), but after looking at some of Tesla?s inventions, the key for me is in the resonance.

So far I and on my friend have built a generator (10Hz-1MHz with 5A mosfet) and the electrodes and when time permits going to try all this. Does anybody have any idea what the frequency should be according to the above conclusions?

Cheers,
Christo

kenbo0422

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2005, 09:36:24 PM »
If this could be proven true, then water harmonics is probably the key to magnified production rates not possible with even a DC setup.  I would like to know how it goes with that.  I tend to go with the Tesla and Keely thinking in many of these things that harmonics or the 'right' frequency is a key to unlocking alot of things we aren't able to accomplish now.

rlm555339

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2005, 12:32:42 AM »
Hi All,


So far I and on my friend have built a generator (10Hz-1MHz with 5A mosfet) and the electrodes and when time permits going to try all this. Does anybody have any idea what the frequency should be according to the above conclusions?

Cheers,
Christo



I read somewhere that 42K (give or take) was effective.  So I tried it.................and everything else from 500 to 500K Hz.  I tried 50% duty, I tried other frequencies and pulse lengths................I tried alternating current.  Nothing matched the DC watt for watt.

Having said that.......I certainly hope you can find the magic number because I need all the help I can get with volume of production.  I'm with Kenbo in that I am interested in your results.

h2o2go

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2005, 05:22:00 PM »
Chris, Ron
Hear me out, then let me have it! OK
I too have toyed with frequency to disassociate water, but obviously not to the extent either of you have.
I too have tried to read Stan Meyer's patents and determined they are cryptic, but do not let me discourage you if you can crack the code.
Having said that, here is some of my conjecture based on a little research and a lot of thinking.
?? ? Observations
? ? ? ? ? ? 1. Freq of water is key but, there are more possible frequencies than water molecules ;D
? ? ? ? ? ? 2. Current flows thru an Electrolyser by ionization, which does not seem to respond quickly to changes, 8 or 10 minutes is
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? not uncommon. This puts trial and error way outside the limits of my patients :'(
? ? ? ? ? ? 3. Starting (or restarting) ionization requires much more energy than sustaining it, that is why a starter is required for a flourescent
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?tube. The process must be re-started with every pulse.? I am using 2 ea 1 farad caps with my battery management system to
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?sustain when switching.
? ? ? Conjecture
? ? ? ? ? ? I believe the only thing pulses do is cause the molecules to move faster, which does accelerate the process, but as Ron has
? ? ? ? ? ? ?observed, this is not enough to offset the off-time of the DC current
? ? ? ? ? ? A more managable means of speeding molecular movement is heat.? My consorts on a Electro-plating? Discussion Board tell me
? ? ? ? ? ? 20 Degrees C increase doubles the electrolyis (?)
? ? ? ? ? ? One area I have not abandoned is a design you can see on my website.? I used high voltage ignition coils to add HV spikes riding
? ? ? ? ? ? on the DC signal.? If I could get this right it should cause some agitation without dropping the DC signal ???? I have suspended? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? testing this until I can convince myself conditions do not exist in my design to allow a HV arc inside the cell :o

As I said: most of this is conjecture.? I posted to prompt intellegent response, so? BRING IT ON ;D

Dave

kenbo0422

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2005, 07:16:41 PM »
The high voltage spikes sound  good and possibly risky, but do any of you recall a thing call a 'Bingo Reactor?'  I think it is supposed to be a similar process to cold fusion or something....  anyway, the light coming out of one of these reactors makes me suspect alot of things going on in there and electrolysis surely should be one of them.   Would looking into a setup such as this make a difference, or sense for that matter?

hartiberlin

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2005, 06:43:48 AM »
Bob at oupower.com forum stated, that he got very good
results using a full wave graetz rectified output of a staircase wave
inverter at around 730 Hz.
So he used rectified the AC to full wave chopped staircase DC.
As this staircase waveform tends to increase the voltage in steps it seems
be easier to break the water molecules with every step jump.

Also pulses which will have a rising envelope amplitude will work !

This was told, before Bob was silenced by a few patent holders.

So try it this way.
Also Stanley Meyer was using increasing amplitude pulses !

Regards, Stefan.

h2o2go

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2005, 03:11:45 PM »
Stefan
Some detail to the 2 coil set up I discussed above - I had spark gaps to control the HV. One fired at about 500V the other at 10KV. As I mentioned these rode on the DC circuit. The coils fired at 1KHz.? I observed a slight increase in output after about 10 minutes.? I also observed an increase in heat over running the reactor the same time period without the spikes.?
Could I be fumbling around in the same area you are discussing ?
I concluded that the coils were pulling about 12 Amps - if I increased the Amperage on the cell 12 Amps I would get more results, plus I had safety concerns :-\
Maybe I backed off too soon? ???

Dave

kenbo0422

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2005, 10:07:08 PM »
Could it be a bit of a shortcut to use a sawtooth pattern instead of steps to simulate the same effect and possibly simplify the circuit?

hartiberlin

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2005, 10:19:44 PM »
Hi All,
you could use such a pulse form to effectively split water:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/free-energy/files/OssieStuff/battery_charging_effect.jpg
Every pulse must be higher than the previous and if you use graphite electrodes you could
also regain some of the used energy, cause both electrodes will act like
a bettery in the pauses, so you can collect energy back from them.
This is, because they store the ions in their meshes and generate about 2.5 Volts
difference voltage when you use a good electrolyte.
So inside the pulse pauses you can use the cell to recharge a big capacitor and
use this "recycled" energy also for the next pulse with it.

Regards, Stefan.

rlm555339

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2005, 10:59:10 PM »
I was referred to this patent by a person on egaspower group

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US006126794&PageNum=1&&IDKey=785F51E0C55E&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=6126794.WKU.%2526OS=PN/6126794%2526RS=PN/6126794

It uses a combination of pulses to get two different forms of hydrogen.  Anyone understand the chemi-terminology in this document?

It's an interesting approach.  Some of which I think I already accidently have going for me.  Like the pressure self-building part.......I can do that just pretty fast in my little setup.  I know I can reach 5 pounds before 5 minutes.  The patent says at least 1 pound a minute from tap water.  It also speaks of frequencies.  I'm using direct current but if you think about it, it's rectified so there are essentially "pulses" there. 

1800 rpm x 10 magnets = 18,000 rectified pulses
18,000 x 9 coils = 162,000 rectified pulses per second.

But I don't have the second low coil and frequency.

I'm currently trying to figure out what's going on that makes it so special but I don't understand the types of hydrogen mentioned in the documentation.

rlm555339

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2005, 11:20:55 PM »
I just timed it.  The water was a little warm from previous attempts earlier today.

With the water temp at 100 degrees, I went from 0 to 5 pounds pressure in 2 minutes - 30 seconds in a 16 quart vessel using 24 VDC rectified current from the generator you see in the photo (very first picture in this thread).

So..........I'm doing twice as much as it says is minimum in the patent.  (I'm starting to attribute most of my problems to carburetor, I think)