I am curious as to why you are avoiding using electrolyte.? It greatly increases output,

It also increases the mess.  My main intent when I started this was to get a prime mover to run continuously on water which would power the generator and keep the batteries charged which I intend to plug most of the house into.  Previous experiments have shown that, while electrolytes increase the conductivity of the water, they also introduce other factors which would complicate a continuous duty cycle.  There would be an added residue factor, constant regulation of the concentration of electrolytes vs water, and the deterioration of the electrodes is increased.  These properties have no impact on a periodic operation or experimentation but when one considers the process running non-stop for days, weeks, and months.........it has to be eliminated as much as possible.  Therefore, I concluded that since our water has rather high alkalinity in and of itself, I elected to focus my attention on finding an alloy that would perform as well as possible with the ph factor in the straight tap water.  I found that using the alloy aluma-ti for both cathode and anode, I have absolutely zero deterioration of the electrodes and the water stays relatively free of gunk. 

I agree that adding KOH or NaHCO3 would increase the conductivity and also increase production.  I guess I was purposely trying to avoid having to do that because of the afore-mentioned reasons.  It might have to come to that though.

http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/myth/powerv.html

"Second, there is Hyper-Gas: which is mythical at this point because although we've had it happen spontainiously, we haven't been able to find a way to get it on demand. Hyper-Gas gives us thousands of liters of gas for only a few watts of electricity."

seems to me like we need to find out more about this hyper-gas.

although that website seems a tad dodgy 

Kane

Thanks Ron
I get it - why no electrolyte.? We are on the same path but chasing a somewhat different end result. You want to replace Grid power which has pretty much been there maintenence free for 150 years.? My goal is to to replace fossil fuel in an automobile where I must compete with going to the filling station, removing the cap and filling up. (and paying whatever OPEC says I must) - some maintenance involved.

I find your electrode configuration interesting.
I am using a spiral neg electrode to gain maximum surface area in a minimum space.? It is stainless steel mesh.? the positive electrode is the S/S container - can't get more exposure than that!? I have about 2 1/2 inches between electrodes. The trick is to ionize as much water as possible.? That is where the electrolyte comes into play. I am using a Polyester sleeve over the Neg electrode.? This seems to work well for separating the H2 from the O2, as long as the process is driven hard enough to produce large bubbles.
But you are absolutely correct, Maintenance is what will make it a hard sell until the oil is all gone.

Question for all RE: the above discussion.
I am stuck on the idea that in the above configuration, the neg electrode (where +H ions collect) needs to be double the surface of the Pos electrode, where the -O ions collect, considering we are disassociating H ₂ O, for optimum exposure.? I can find no data, or even discussion to support this.? Does anyone have an opinion ?

THANX
Dave

Question for anyone:
If you visit the Rexresearch site and the Garrett Caruretor of 1935, you'll see that he changes polarity peridically.
http://www.rexresearch.com/hyfuel/garrett/garrett.htm
Is this necessary?  Why?

Dave,
Without doing the tests, my gut says that the same size cathode and anode will produce the disassociation effectively.  I'm not an expert on electrolysis but as an electrician, you are only going to get equivilant conductivity on either electrode.  So twice the material surface would amount to half the current as the other one......hence half the production.  Make sense?  To me, it all evens out so you might as well go with the same sizes since I don't think you are going to get one electrode to carry twice the load as your other element through water.

Ron

i know this isnt really electrolysis but

have you looked into bingo fuel? http://jlnlabs.imars.com/bingofuel/index.htm

1080litres/hour = 18 litres of gas a minute

should be enough to run the engine?

Dave,

The alloy Aluma-ti is made by Inland Steel.  The particular item I used for the electrodes is a couple of Torctite heat clamps I purchased at my local Napa store.  (patent #4,312,526).  It has totally non-magnetic qualities so take a magnet with you to be sure you are looking at the right stuff.  I bought the 16" long, 3 inch wide ones)  That would probably be the easiest way to get a hold of some.  Look in the muffler / hot pipe clamps section of the store.

On another website it has been described a thus:  Aluma-Ti is a vacuum-degassed, interstitial-free steel containing columbium and titanium  As far as I can tell, the alloy is fairly new.  There is another form of it called Aluma-fuse which is for higher heat situations.

just some more info:

"A Must for Hydrogen

In order to do work on a piston, the fuel-air mixture needs to burn at a speed faster than the piston is moving. Low hydrogen flame speed is a disadvantage shared with most other gaseous fuels. For comparison, a gasoline-air mixture has a flame front speed that ranges typically from 70 up to 170 feet/second in IC engines, while an ideal hydrogen-air mixture has a flame front speed of about 8 feet/second. An average vehicle engine rotating at 2,000 rpm (33 revolutions per second) produces piston linear speed of 45 feet/second in the middle-stroke, which is already 5 times faster than the hydrogen flame front speed ! The fact that a hydrogen-air mixture has a flame front speed of about 1/10  that of a gasoline-air mixture, contributes to explain why hydrogen engines only run at reduced power and low rpm under load. However, the photo-detonation mode is extremely rapid and totally removes this limitation. This is why the detonation mode (not compatible with piston, but with the Quasiturbine) is critical for the future of the hydrogen engine."

http://www.quasiturbine.com/ETheoryDetonationEngine.htm

just trying to collect as much information as possible

Ron
Thanks for the info on Alumi-Ti.? I looked it up and found a description calling it "Aluminized steel".? I can not tell from all the $2.00 words if there is aluminum in what you are using or not. Just FYI if there is Al in your electrodes and you decide to try some electrolyte (especially NaOH) you might want to read the results of my experiments on my Web Page titled Hydrogen from Aluminum.
http://home.comcast.net/~apdynamics/APD.htm
If there is Al present you will get an amazing amount of H2 for a short time, then you will need new electrodes.

Dave