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Author Topic: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project  (Read 48819 times)

Offline rlm555339

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Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« on: April 07, 2005, 06:30:12 PM »
The generator:  Home-built Muller style brushless disc, 16" rotor, 2" x 1" neo magnets, #6 AWG magnet wire, S-260 soft iron shot amorphous cores, 3" long coils, 200 volt/35 amp FBR's, 10,000 uF/80 volt caps, #6 wire.  Supply is 24 rectified volts to 8 battery bank & two 5000 watt inverters.

The electrolysis reactor: Model 16 (16 quart) HEALTH pressure canner/cooker, 300 sq. in. of aluma-ti alloy anode/cathode coil, 24 vdc, plain tap water (no electrolytes other than normal alkalinity), plastic lined so neither current nor water contacts the vessel.

The motor:  Model "N" Briggs & Stratton small engine, 12 volt electronic timing via opto-coupler, car coil, and one-shot 555 with counter, home-made carburetor w/ flashback bubbler.

Progress at this posting:  Chemical engineer being consulted with regard to additive to water which would imitate a hydrocarbon without the pollution.  2H2/O2 mixture produces a detonation rather than a flame front combustion and thus produces more noise than power.  Motor has briefly (very briefly) run on it's own using the 2H2/O2 mixture.  Accumulated water in both intake and exhaust is ice cold.  Motor fan is being used to pump air back through the reactor to act as a turbo-charger (pressure) and I think this is diluting the mix to a non-detonative state.  Without it, there is not enough supply pressure to motor and it draws a vacuum with sucks out all the water in the carburetor flashback arrestor.

Objective is to get the motor to power the generator to electrolyze the water to make the fuel to power the motor, etc.

More will be posted as develops.


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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2005, 06:49:17 PM »
Tryto run it at 30:1 air: H2 + O2 mix !
You need less hydroxy gas foir a motor, so mix it with air
to get  a slower burning and less detonation !
Please keep us informed ! Many thanks !

Regards, Stefan.

Offline h2o2go

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2005, 10:29:03 PM »
Hi Ron

Cool project - good luck!

For what it is worth --- I spent much effort on using H2O2 in my engine with the same results --- Lots of bang - little else (not always in the engine either)
When I decided to seperate out the H2, My engine will at least run on it's own ( streached definition of run)

If you are interested in how I am accomplishing this at this point , let me know, I will post

Dave

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2005, 10:29:03 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2005, 02:58:47 AM »
Hi Dave,
sure post it. Please let us know, how you can run an engine
closed loop on theis energy.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

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Offline h2o2go

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2005, 03:29:41 PM »
Stefan
I will post at my earliest opportunity, but I must let everyone know, this is not open loop.
I have developed a battery management system plus trying to optimize H2 production, at the end of the day I am using grid power, the batteries will go dead, the trick is range - I am already challenging the limits of a DC motor with an IC
More later
Dave

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2005, 03:29:41 PM »
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Offline h2o2go

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2005, 09:49:48 PM »
OOPs!
I responded hastily and guess my fingers were not working with my brain -- my previous response should have read closed loop
Sorry
Dave

Offline rlm555339

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2005, 07:43:01 PM »
Here is a photo of the homemade carburetor setup. 

Latest progress report is:  The motor will run on the 2H2/O2 alone.

Problem:  I can't produce enough fuel to meet the motor demand.  Have to let pressure build up in reactor before starting.  Motor will run until pressure (fuel) is used up and will run very well.

The plain air adjustment setting you see in the second photo is the one which provides the correct hydroxy-to-air ratio.  (three 1/8" holes)

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2005, 07:43:01 PM »
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Offline rlm555339

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2005, 08:02:17 PM »
I forgot to also mention that the timing was changed to 15 degrees ATDC.  The exhaust sounds are not the sharp retorts you are used to hearing when gasoline is used as fuel.  The exhaust with 2H2/O2 is much softer and I fear the engine power will be much less also.  Haven't tried to run anything with it yet but it just sounds that way.

I'm still trying to figure out a way to make enough fuel.   :-\

Offline KSW

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2005, 08:20:02 PM »
Dave

I found this forum i was reading earlier, he says he managed to produce 2litres in 2 minutes, (enough to maybe run a v8 he says).
http://forums.cjb.net/hpnow-about2.html

There are also thoughts about incorporating this with high frequency electrolysis to increase production rates further.

Also on the watercar yahoo group there is something about using a bubbler (they could do with sorting the information out to create a single file with all the information needed as its a bit spread out and hard to find any useful info), and i think what they say is that by allowing to h2 /O2 to bubble through the water, it traps some moisture and so when the mixture ignites it also turns the moisture to steam helping to increase the pressure. They say it also helps cool the process down.

You say you have to let pressure build up in the reactor. How much 2H2/O2 is stored in this? And how long does the engine run for on this stored fuel?
Just to get a rough idea of the rate of production (litres/min ?) which needs to be attained.

Kane

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2005, 08:20:02 PM »
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Offline rlm555339

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2005, 09:55:43 PM »
There is no evidence that frequency can electrolyze any faster than direct current.  There's a lot of talk about it, and a lot of ideas, but I have found no verification anywahere that it performs better.

The reason the gas is bubbled through water is two fold.  One is to keep a flashback from going back into the reactor.  The other reason is to dry the gas.  After the reactor gets hot, there is a lot of moisture in with the hydroxy and running the bubbles through water condenses that moisture and it tends to stay in the bottle of water.

I am making hydroxy at a rate of about a liter a minute (a little less than a one liter pop bottle) with 300 sq in. of aluma-ti cathode/anode @ 24 vdc in plain tap water.  It is not enough to make this engine run.  This little engine requires 6.28 cu in. per stroke.  Multiply this times 1800 rpm and you get 11,304 cu. in. per minute that is sucked through the motor.  It'll empty the small amount of pressure in the vessel pretty quick.  Longest I've ever run it is about 5 seconds at one time but it runs very well when gets enough fuel.  Making enough hydrogen/oxygen to run even this tiny engine is going to be a challenge.  I can't imagine trying to supply a V-8.  There must be a secret I am not aware of.  Wish I was........I'm open to ideas, folks.  The setup is all here and all that needs to be done is make it function within the capability of the materials I have available for production.  Those facts are in the first post.

If you look at pic 8 in the forums website you cited, you will see the condition of the water.  My water does not look like this even after hours of running.  It stays clear with only a tiny amount of red material (rust?) in it at the bottom.  I attribute this to what is already in the tap water as my electrodes do not deteriorate in any way.  A 16 quart container such as I am using goes a LONG way.  Water level does not go down even after hours of fun.   :)

Offline KSW

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2005, 10:41:31 PM »
how do you think altering the compression might affect the running?

sorry im just guessing here  :P

this is something i would really love to see work.

another idea would be ... if you could build an ideal motor for h2/o2, what difference would there be between that and an ordinary gasoline/petrol engine?

as i have the tools and equipment here that would enable me to build a smaller "simplified" model to test different designs.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2005, 11:22:26 PM by Kane »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2005, 10:41:31 PM »
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Offline rlm555339

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2005, 11:48:18 PM »
Now THERE is a good idea.  Build a motor to suit the fuel.    Maybe someone here has that know-how.  I don't.  My field of expertise centers around electricity.  I'm way beyond my knowledge-base with this motor/fuel thing and really in the dark as far as the chemistry of what I'm trying to accomplish.  What I do know is that one has to be on top of things with this hydrogen/oxygen mixture or IT WILL take command.......that is NOT a good thing.   :D  I've had the bejeebers scared out of me a few times......thought I was dead.  Fortunately, all it amounted to was a loud bang.  (whew)  I'm really careful of what is going on with this stuff.  There is no such thing as too much precaution.

I really hope there is a way to figure out how to make this work too.  I'm sure on your side with that idea.  Even if just to be able to say we have a motor that runs on water is a mouthful if it never did do a lick of work.   :)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2005, 03:05:08 AM »
Hi Ronald,
try to use KOH as the electrolyte inside your water and
try to use graphite plates and magnesium plates as the electrodes.
Put the positive pole at the graphite and the negative battery pole
at the magnesium pole. Than you will get added gas output, cause
this is the highest electrochemical difference between metals-materials,
which are still (easy,sometimes not so easy) to get.

Also another trick would be to use a coil around the electrodes and try then
to pulse that coil with DC pulses.
As the water builds then up an internal voltage difference, the water might be
easier to split.

Look at:
http://www.harti.com/waterled/
You might try an electrode inside the coil and the other outside the coil.
I did pulse it with 100 Hz graetz bridge rectified 12 Volts pulses and the
LED light up due to the difference voltage in water generated by the pulsing
magnetic field.

Also you could try to add an ultrasonic bubbler.
When I tried this, I had no very small bubbles anymore,
but only very big bubbles of hydroxy coming out in the electrolysis.

So there could still many things to be tried.
Also it might be better to put 3 x 4 electrodes in series,
so the voltage will be divided and every electrode stack
runs only on 3 to 4 Volts or less.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline KSW

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2005, 01:02:31 PM »
another thought .... rc glow engines

these are usually something like 1-5cc ? and can get hold of them for around ?10s

the larger ones produce around 1hp i think

and if you can run it on a 4% mix of h2/02 and air then production wouldnt need to be that high to run these small motors for test purposes.

the only problem i can forsee is trying to use a spark plug instead of the "glow plug" that they usually use.
Unless the temperature of the glow plug can ignite this h2/o2 mix?

ah well just a thought ...


Offline h2o2go

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Re: Ronald Classen's H2O Motor Project
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2005, 03:39:15 PM »
Kane
Thanks for the link - interesting - but I can only get a 1300 cc 4Cyl to barely idle on 6 litre a minute (H2) I would like to know his secret if he can get a V8 to run on 2 litre/min ?? I still have a lot of optimizing to do but .........

Ron
I think Stefan's suggestion to stack electrodes or as I have done, separate cells, is where the answer is for producing enough gas. I have experimented with many series / parallel configurations. The results are predictible.? I am convinced the correct combination is mathmatically possible.? Power density is certainly another story.
I also found that about 15 degrees after TDC is about right. I also moved the cam timing back (valves open later) 1 tooth (probably 3 degrees). I am not decided as to whether this helped ??.? I have the plugs gapped a .010 inch, and am seriously thinking of trying glow plugs from a diesel. H + O mixtures really want to be water, so it takes very little energy to start the reaction ??
I am curious as to why you are avoiding using electrolyte.? It greatly increases output, and the concentration relative to the size of the electrodes controls the voltage drop across a cell. As I said, at that point the rest is math.

Dave

 

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