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## Discussion board help and admin topics => Half Baked Ideas => Topic started by: BinaryAlgorithm on April 18, 2006, 02:42:25 AM

Title: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: BinaryAlgorithm on April 18, 2006, 02:42:25 AM
I have been reading about a lot of different devices and ideas and am trying to take it all in. I have been thinking about the effect of using two concepts in a generator.

Consider first this animation: http://www.westfield.no/GravityEngine.avi (http://www.westfield.no/GravityEngine.avi).
Now, replace the right hand "elevator" with an Adsitt Spiral Ramp or similar SMOT devices.

Test #10 as well as some of the other movies (particulary the one with the stairs called "section2") seems to indicate that a roller can climb upwards from a starting position a few inches from the first magnet (from state of little or no inertia). If we can raise a roller or a spherical ball/magnet to a certain height using a magnetic spiral and let it fall as indicated by the gravity engine, then at the bottom it might roll a bit on a slope and get caught once again in the magnetic spiral. However, we have extracted some work from it turning a generator on the way down. Any thoughts on this setup?
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: jake on May 01, 2006, 02:49:33 PM
Do you believe that the gravity engine would work if constructed?
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: sixthflyingman on May 09, 2006, 09:24:20 PM
In theory, the Gravity Engine would operate at exactly 100% unity at best, with no otherwise-unnecessary force available for turning the generator, I'm afraid. And then when you build it in real life, friction comes in and screws up everything. Now, there ARE methods to eliminate all friction entirely, which would allow us to produce an exact-unity machine. Which is a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: oouthere on May 10, 2006, 01:11:39 AM
Don had the best of intentions when he did those first experiments but he was incorrect on the Adsitt ramp.  The only stored energy was when the ball or magnet is introduced into the pathway.  He understands were he went wrong.

Rich
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: jake on May 10, 2006, 02:10:11 PM
>>Now, there ARE methods to eliminate all friction entirely, which would allow us to produce an exact-unity machine. Which is a step in the right direction.

If you really can eliminate all friction, you are where you are going to get.  You might as well quit spending more time on it.  (I don't understand the fascination with trying to disprove simple physics)

In my opinion time would be better spent trying to come up with ways of utilizing energy that is really there in better ways.

If I were going to make a 'perpetual motion' machine, I would at least add an antenna or some odd looking appendage to harness some unseen force, so it wouldn't look like I was completely ignorant of the fundamental laws of physics.  No arrangement of magnets, weights, levers, or clever mechanisms is ever going to achieve perpetual motion.  So, put an antenna on it to harness the great unseen force - maybe that will work.

Perpetual motion would require adding energy to the system (not gravity or magnets - they don't add energy to the system without requiring that energy to be put back).  To add energy to the system would require a source for that energy.  Why not harness solar energy, wind energy, geothermal energy, or whatever?

If you drop something, you have to lift it to drop it again.  If you stick something to a magnet you have to pull it away from the magnet.  It always takes at least as much effort to lift the object or pull the object away from a magnet as you gained going the other direction.  This doesn't seem so hard to grasp.  (easy to deny, it seems)

In other words, we will always be the same place we have been for the last 2000 years on perpetual motion - "almost there".  On the other hand, things like heat pumps will be actually out there doing real work, leveraging energy that is already there in more efficient ways than before.

Making a car engine 5% more efficient would be of greater benefit to mankind than to have a perpetual motion machine that would just turn itself, but no more.  The perpetual motion machine would just sit there and do enough to turn itself, and no more - no real benefit to mankind.  An engine that was 5% more efficient could reduce fuel consumption by 5% - a measurable, beneficial thing.  I would rather waste my time improving a heat pump or a combustion engine than to sit around trying to disprove the laws of physics.

Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: Liberty on May 10, 2006, 04:24:04 PM
message deleted.

Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: jake on May 10, 2006, 06:40:20 PM
Magnets provide a force, not energy.

Every deflection yoke I have seen has wires running to it.  What do you suppose those wires are doing?

In an electric motor, the magnets provide an opposing force to the magnetism produced by the electric windings, nothing more.  The magnets are not adding "energy" to the system.  They are simply there for the windings to push against.

Similarly, gravity acts as a force.  A force doesn't do "work" until something moves.  Once gravity does work (something falling), equal work must be done to lift the object back to the point that it fell from.  That work will be at least equal to the work that was done by the object falling.

In the case of magnets, the same applies.  Yes, a magnet can do the work of lifting something.  But similar to the gravity example, whatever the magnet lifts must be pulled away from the magnet.  The action of pulling the object away from the object requires at least the same amount of work that was done by the magnet lifting the object.  No matter what method you use to cause the magnet to release the object, you will expend the same amount of energy that it took for the object to become attracted to the magnet.

Please define "overunity" as it applies to the devices being proposed here.
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: Liberty on May 10, 2006, 07:17:08 PM
Magnets provide a force, not energy.

Every deflection yoke I have seen has wires running to it.  What do you suppose those wires are doing?

In an electric motor, the magnets provide an opposing force to the magnetism produced by the electric windings, nothing more.  The magnets are not adding "energy" to the system.  They are simply there for the windings to push against.

Similarly, gravity acts as a force.  A force doesn't do "work" until something moves.  Once gravity does work (something falling), equal work must be done to lift the object back to the point that it fell from.  That work will be at least equal to the work that was done by the object falling.

In the case of magnets, the same applies.  Yes, a magnet can do the work of lifting something.  But similar to the gravity example, whatever the magnet lifts must be pulled away from the magnet.  The action of pulling the object away from the object requires at least the same amount of work that was done by the magnet lifting the object.  No matter what method you use to cause the magnet to release the object, you will expend the same amount of energy that it took for the object to become attracted to the magnet.

Please define "overunity" as it applies to the devices being proposed here.

A yoke on a TV also has magnets attached to it, not just wires.  There are no wires powering the magnets.  The magnets assist replacing energy that would be used in a electromagnet to accomplish the same work.  A motor that uses windings creates a magnetic force with that power (simple energy conversion) to simulate a magnet that turns on and off at the correct time for motor operation.  That magnetic force acts against another magnetic force to do work (a motor).  Magnets can do the same thing (and I have done it, as have others).  A magnet will repel and attract just like an electromagnet.  If you properly design the device, you can do work with it.  Only no power is fed back to the magnet in exchange for the work done.  To argue physics with you is pointless, since it is only man's understanding (and has become a religion) of how he believes that things always operate and so he call them laws.  Since new ways to operate with magnets are available today, physics "laws" may have to change and therefore are no law but only rules as is understood currently by man.  Only God makes laws, since He is the law giver and created this place, having all knowledge.  You can find the definition of overunity quite easily by looking it up.
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: jake on May 11, 2006, 01:05:56 PM
I tried looking up the definition of overunity.  www.dictionary.com (which references numerous dictionaries) does not report a definition for overunity or any obvious derivative thereof.  Please refer me to an online (or other) definition of "overunity".  (incidentally, I don't quickly find a definition on this site either)

Since you have done it, please refer me to posts that explain specifically what it is you have done.  The closest I have seen to a working device is a guy spinning a ball with a magnet attached to it, but he happens to be holding the stator in his hand.  He can't seem to demonstrate it working without holding the stator in his hand. (hint - the energy required to make it work is coming from him.)
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: Liberty on May 11, 2006, 06:36:19 PM
In short:

Unity would be a break even between power in to power out.

Over Unity would be doing better than that.

I have not posted here what I have done, so I can't direct you to a previous post.

It is a motor that I made last year with a simple wood frame (very homemade looking [with no magnets in hand to make it run]) that is based on magnets and uses a little electricity (less than 1.5 watts continuously) at operating speed of at least 400 RPM (at fractional horsepower).  The prototype was a test of principle only (it was not designed for strength, just to see if the motor design would even turn at all using magnets as the rotational force and continue to run; which it did).  This first motor has limitations (being of basic design), but runs surprisingly well for a first try on a very low power requirement.  Below is a (very limited) partial picture of it and I purposely do not show the method of operation and have therefore omitted part of the picture.  It is a picture from one of three movies that I made of it when it was running.  Sorry for the 'tease' due to the limited nature of the picture (I really dislike having to do that), but it is necessary from an inventor point of view at this time.  I hope you understand.

Liberty
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: _GonZo_ on May 11, 2006, 09:59:11 PM

If you do not feed it with 1,5W does it still keeps turning?

Or if it needs that power to run is it posible that you attach a little generator at one of the ends and feed the motor with the power generated by it self and it keeps turning?

If the answer to both questions is no then you just have reinvented a electric motor. no overunity sorry.
The motor just needs energy to turn... even if it is only a fraction of a mW...

Think that there is already electric motors in the market (I use them every day at my job) with eficiency over 95%
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: Liberty on May 11, 2006, 11:55:52 PM
Hi GonZo,

Yes, this device does need some power to run and won't run without it.  I think that I could run it on less power perhaps, but it is already pretty low consumption.  The prototype is approx. a 6" rotor using a standard copper half inch water pipe for it's axle on standard steel bearings.  (For perspective).  I measured the current and voltage with a digital meter.  I suppose it would be average or rms reading.

Never the less, I have not incorporated a small alternator on the motor at this time, so I can't answer whether it is self running yet.  It's too early to tell.  I hope the final design will be capable of this and then some.  My honest impression is that I think the speed/torque from even the first prototype is probably capable of providing the needed power to run the device (after it is started), but it is at this time, untested (not having an alternator built in) and therefore I do not call it a self-runner, just a motor.   I do plan to add a small alternator after I make some refinements to improve the motor's performance.  It either will or won't run itself.  Being self running should be the ultimate test I would think to put it in the class of an overunity device.  I agree with you and think that adding the ability to generate power will be the test for the device to pass next (after refinements).

You might be right.  It might just be another motor (but all inventors in this area face this possiblity on failure).  This is a work in progress (and on hold till I move), so at this point, it is unknown whether the device is truly overunity...  But I would have to say that I am very encouraged at this point from what I see.  It would certainly seem worthy of continuing development at this point.  I made the device for myself and have really enjoyed working on it.  It has been a lot of fun so far learning about magnets and how they can be utilized to do work for you.
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: _GonZo_ on May 12, 2006, 12:32:44 AM
Good, experiment.

As generator you can use a small toy electric motor those have an eficiency around 60% that you can have in acount when doing calculations.

You do not need to feed the motor with the energy generated by this little toy motor just make electric energy run throw a bulb or a resistor and use a voltmeter and ampmeter to mesure.

OK now when you atach this little generator will create a load on your motor, then you will notice that your motor will need more energy (W) to turn at the same speed as before.

Doing the calculations after ataching the generator you will notice that the energy generated by system is around a 60% of the extra energy splied to the motor to make it tur at the same speed as before. (The other 40% extra energy you are suplying is lost in the generator)

Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: JackH on May 24, 2006, 11:35:32 PM
Hello jake,

Jake after talking to you today on the phone, I think I have you figured out now.   You are a true non-beleiver and no mater what you see or here will ever change that.   I would prefure not to have you working with me on a project that you do not beleive in.  I guess I am just funney that way.

Now I have a electro magnetic valve that will pickup and hold 1,200 lbs of weight, using only 8 watts of continous dc power.  All you need to do to drop the weight is turn off the 8 watts of dc power.   Now if you would look in your physics books on this subject, I'm sure that thay will tell you that it is impossable.

Overunity is simply more out than in.

In my case I don't beleive that I am creating overunity, simply because I am using the energy of the magnets along with a small amount of electrical energy to create power out.   I do however think I can provide free energy with this project.

Jake you say that you always keep an open mind, however your messages here prove differently.

Liberty I think you really have something going on here, please do not give up.  I am verry happy for you and hope you all the success you deserve.

Later,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: jake on May 25, 2006, 12:24:05 AM
Jack,

Thanks for talking the time to talk with me.  I enjoyed the conversation tremendously.

Jake
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: JackH on May 25, 2006, 12:40:08 AM
Hello _GonZo_,

The motors that currently run at around %95 efficiency is not totally true.   Yes the motor may run at %95 efficiency. I take it that these are brushless motors but when you consider the loss in the power supply that it takes to operate them.  I think the accual efficiency will be closer to %70 to %75 efficiency.
Anyway that is what I have read at most motor sites on the net and the local motor rewinding shop here at home.  Maybe not.

Later,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Adsitt Spiral + Gravity Generator?
Post by: Liberty on May 25, 2006, 07:53:42 AM

Liberty I think you really have something going on here, please do not give up.  I am verry happy for you and hope you all the success you deserve.

Later,,,,,JackH

Thanks JackH,

Very Kind of you.  I won't give up, I will keep plugging away on my next model after I move.

I think that I may have a fair understanding of your magnetic valve on your motors and I would agree with you, that what you have is better than Mr. Flynn's device.  I hope that you have good success with your new motor (I know that you will).  Don't give up either.  You already have a winner and I know your next one will be too.  I have enjoyed talking with you and best wishes to you and your family as well.  Keep in touch...

Liberty