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Author Topic: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?  (Read 11737 times)

sterlinga

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Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« on: July 21, 2010, 04:53:33 PM »
I received the following diagram and explanation via email and would like some input as to its feasibility.  In the diagram, Donald Applebeck says he "ran in  a close[d] loop, but the inverter needed to be 2000 Watts [rather than just 1000 W]  The battery charger overcurrent protector could not handle the current [any] longer [than] 10 sec."

He gave the following signature line:

Donald L. Applebeck
barton961@live.com
WI.

Goat

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2010, 11:28:20 PM »
I received the following diagram and explanation via email and would like some input as to its feasibility.  In the diagram, Donald Applebeck says he "ran in  a close[d] loop, but the inverter needed to be 2000 Watts [rather than just 1000 W]  The battery charger overcurrent protector could not handle the current [any] longer [than] 10 sec."


@ sterlinga

Just an observation on schematic diagrams A & B...and with all due respect to all...
 
Without knowing the values of the MOT's used in the schematic of the diagrams of A & B and their placement it's impossible to replicate without further information about their electrical values.

I look forward to any brave soul who tries it and gets meaningful results to further this experiment.

Regards,
Paul

broli

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2010, 01:00:25 AM »
Is the battery charger really needed? What if the output was just rectified with a FWBR and connected directly to the battery.

sterlinga

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2010, 08:12:18 PM »
@ sterlinga

Just an observation on schematic diagrams A & B...and with all due respect to all...
 
Without knowing the values of the MOT's used in the schematic of the diagrams of A & B and their placement it's impossible to replicate without further information about their electrical values.

I look forward to any brave soul who tries it and gets meaningful results to further this experiment.

Regards,
Paul

Here is Applebeck's response:

"Best I can do right now."

FatBird

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 10:28:45 PM »
Sterlinga,  Thank you for the nice post.

I think I follow everything except for the Blue Dots & Blue Lines.  Could you email your friend & ask him 2 questions:

1.  What do the Blue Dots & Blue LInes represent?

2.  Can he give us an Approximate COP (Coefficient Of Performance).

Thank you for sharing this.

.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 11:41:11 PM by FatBird »

broli

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 11:39:05 PM »
Sterlinga,  Thank you for the nice post.

I think I follow everything except for the Blue Dots & Blue Lines.  Could you email your friend & ask him 2 questions:

1.  What do the Blue Dots & Blue LInes represent?

2.  Can he give us an Approximate COP (Coefficient Of Performance).

Thank you for sharing this.

.

I'm pretty sure they represent the connection to the case/core as that's the "ground" in a MOT.

FatBird

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2010, 11:53:10 PM »
Thank you for that answer Broli.  So if I am reading this right, he is:

1.  Tying several MOT Xfmrs together (back feeding) to get O/U to charge a Battery.

2.  The battery then drives a 2 KW Inverter that drives the first MOT, which then feeds the rest in a loop, etc.

Does anyone have any idea what the COP is, or anyplace we can find out more about how efficient it is?

==========================================

I know that Neon Sign Xfmrs are O/U because Don Smith says so in his writings.  PLUS, the Input & Output numbers on the back of the Neon Xfmrs calculate to O/U.

As can be seen below, the Neon Xfmr Input is 60 W, & the Output is 150 W.  So that gives a COP of 2.5

So maybe he is on the right track using HIGHER Output MOT Xfmrs.

.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 12:39:06 AM by FatBird »

FatBird

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2010, 01:08:33 AM »
@ Sterlinga,

Can you see if you can get Mr. Applebeck to come here to  OverUnity.Com  so we can all share our circuits and findings?

Thanks.


e2matrix

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 01:34:23 AM »
@Fatbird,  The idea that NST's are overunity has been discussed a number of times and it is simply a misunderstanding some have about the way they are rated.  NST's are not overunity and if they were I'm sure we'd all be using them by now for lots of things.  Don Smith was wrong about that but then Don said quite a few things that were either wrong or intended to misdirect people with less than his understanding.  I don't know if I can explain it as well as some others have but the NST ratings are misleading.  I investigated this thoroughly myself with the NST data sheets and other info.  And while I have not personally tried to measure my 12KV 'Franceformer' NST for OU I don't see anything beyond a little misunderstanding that seems to persist which would lead me to believe it is capable of such. 
   I just found one of the good explanations that I could not remember - this from our armagdn03:

"The neon sign business is concerned with break down voltage of the gas in question, which relates to PEAK VOLTAGE not RMS VOLTAGE. This means that input is measured in RMS mains voltage and amperage whcih can be used for power calculations, while the output is only concerned with PEAK voltage, which CANNOT be used to make power calculations. This is most peoples misinterpretation of the neon sign business."

FatBird

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2010, 03:09:01 AM »
Thank you for that super good explanation e2matrix.

I see what you mean & it makes sense.

Thanks.


gsmsslsb

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2010, 06:45:25 AM »
Are you saying that the output voltage written on a NST is peak voltage not RMS.
I hope not becayse I have just made a 19 stage Cockroft walton cascade and set a neon sign transformer in rubber today and all my calcs were for 9000 volt RMS not 9000 volt peak

e2matrix

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2010, 06:40:40 PM »
Are you saying that the output voltage written on a NST is peak voltage not RMS.
I hope not becayse I have just made a 19 stage Cockroft walton cascade and set a neon sign transformer in rubber today and all my calcs were for 9000 volt RMS not 9000 volt peak
Unfortunately that is what I am saying but you are welcome to research it yourself.  It's just been my experience that every time I've looked into this that this seems to be the end conclusion. 

vince

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2010, 03:59:19 AM »
Had some MOT's lying around so I tried a quick setup.
Input -- 120 volts , 10 to 15 amps depending on which MOT was used for primary imput
Output-- as claimed 257 volts,  have not checked current capability.

Mot's get hot!

Regards
Vince

fritznien

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2010, 04:29:39 AM »
Unfortunately that is what I am saying but you are welcome to research it yourself.  It's just been my experience that every time I've looked into this that this seems to be the end conclusion.
i think you will find that transformers are rated in volt-amps not watts. keep an eye on the power factor.
 fritznien

FatBird

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Re: Applebeck's HV Tranformer closed loop?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2010, 03:33:45 AM »
@ Vince,  Thank you for sharing your setup picture.

May I suggest that you try inserting a Dimmer between the wall outlet and the first MOT.  Use a Dimmer that controls ceiling fans so it can handle the MOT Inductive Load.  They generally cost less than $10.  Just insert it in series with the Hot Wire from the wall.

Don't forget to put a Light Bulb(s) on the Final MOT for a Load.

Don Smith said he used a Dimmer on almost all of his O/U devices.
.