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Author Topic: Rosemary Ainslie COP>17 Circuit / A First Application on a Hot Water Cylinder  (Read 269194 times)

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Hello Rosemary,
You are wellcome. And yes you are right, later i also tought it might be better together with you next post. Next time I respect that.

sincerely
Norbert
:) thanks again.

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Offline otto

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Hello all,

@Rosemary

lets forget my last post. It was a long time ago.....lets concentrate on your setup. I have reeded finally your papers.

As Im curious like a little child I would have some questions, if you allow:

1. have you ever tried 2 or 3 different frequencies  in your setup?
2. ever tried to use a 470pF cap on pin 5 of the 555?
3. ever tried to use some MOSFET drivers?

As said, Im only curious nothing else.

Forgot it:

@G

thanks!! My PMs doesnt work.

Otto


Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Hello

As Im curious like a little child I would have some questions, if you allow:

1. have you ever tried 2 or 3 different frequencies  in your setup?
2. ever tried to use a 470pF cap on pin 5 of the 555?
3. ever tried to use some MOSFET drivers?


Hi Otto.  I've tried many different frequencies.  The circuit is not 'frequency dependent'.  In other words - that 'preferred mode of oscillation' is evident over a fairly broad range of frequencies.  What I used as a guide to the measure of efficiency was to watch the scope's DC average on the display.  When this stays relatively steady in a net negative value then I know that the frequency is working.  But each resistor has different optimal 'preferred' numbers.  It's a trial and error thing at the moment.

Your last two questions the simple answer is I'm not sure.  If by a 'different' mosfet driver you mean a functions generator - then yes.  It has been tested.  But not by me.  And I don't know if there's been a cap tried at the pin 5 of the 555.  But it's possible.  Again.  The significance of this would be entirely lost on me.

I hope that helps.  Sorry I can't answer this in more detail.  I only have a very generalised understanding of switches and invariably had technicians build these for me.  All I know is that a good quality pot is invaluable as I could do better 'fine tuning'. 

If you - or anyone - can put a switch design to the proposed schematic I've offered - that may be a very good thing.  If you're up for it.  I'ts required, and probably best managed with a 'reed type' switch or some such.  We'll be building our own - in due course - and will post the full schematic when it's to hand. 

The switch for the MOSFET is another story.  That design is likely to be complex as the object is to have absolute control on the waveform generated through that inductance.  But again.  I'm relying on the input of experts.  I am NOT an expert.  I hardly even qualify as a novice.  LOL.

Regards,
Rosemary

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Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Guys, just to bring your attention to the 'edit' in Norbert's post on the schematic.  We're proposing to use Nickle Metal Hydride batteries.  This should be doable.

Regards,
Rosemary
http://www.scribd.com/aetherevarising

Offline nul-points

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hi Rosemary

if i understand your suggested battery-load-battery disposition correctly, i think this configuration can often be seen in a number of existing circuits (eg. Bedini & Joule Thief battery-charge applications) so i don't think you should have any problem finding battery combinations which work together

the same principle also crops up in the notoriously misnomered 'Tesla Switch' cct - only in this latter example there are usually 4 batteries which get connected in pairs via the load

hope this provides some useful context for you


i've managed to read a lot of your posts on Scribd now and found them very interesting, especially about the concepts of the innate energy in the cct components being released in opposition to the applied source dipole energy (eg. Counter EMF) and also that of the Universal magnetic dipole

...the 'zipon' - what a wonderful name for a particle which travels at 2c !...

i need to do some more reading & thinking on your ideas


all the best
sandy

[EDIT]...
PS   i think Otto's reference to 'MOSFET drivers' was asking if you'd tried using the task-specific chips which are often used as an interface between a pulse source (such as function generator or 555, etc) and the final MOSFET switch - they are specifically designed to match the drive-characteristics of MOSFET type devices, whereas the 555, for example, is a general-purpose signal source chip

(i suspect that the use of such a device might interfere with the 'spontaneous' nature of the drive waveform which your effect requires)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 06:10:33 PM by nul-points »

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Offline fritz

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There is a battery reconditioner:

       novitec megapulse

It contains a mosfet, a small coil and a cmos 4538(?!) (or similar) oscillator + shut off logic.
Operates at some kHz.

You can find case studies at their homepage -  http://www.megapulser.de/   + some experimental data from austrian technical university.

Its reported that this device decreases the amount of sulfur-crystalisation on lead acid battery plates - which reduces  /restores / lowers the internal resistance of the battery - as well as re-establishes the worn down ampere-hours to useful amounts.

I bought the stuff (pretty expensive for what I found inside) - and could verify the effect with some aged lead acid batteries.

I saw increase of battery voltage, reduction of internal resistance, increase in amphours - or lets call it re-activation of prior not accessible zombie-energy - trapped by sulphur crystals.

As seen on other experiments as well as reported from battery manufactorers - the amount harvestable energy from a primary cell can be a multiple of the nominal energy if extracted using short DC pulses.
This is why I never trust chemistry.

Offline fritz

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In some claims they state that this effect is caused by a treatment with some precise MHz fluctuating current which targets the problem on molecular level. If there is some truth with that- this would be achieved by overtones of that audible kHz operation.

The circuit is active / oscillator running - if the battery voltage is >12.8V - then the coil is loaded with some khz pulses and discharges on top of that actual battery voltage.
The used coil has few uH and a ferrite core, the height of discharge pulse depends on the battery condition.

There are lots of circuits on the net for that purpose:

http://www.alton-moore.net/graphics/desulfator.pdf

Even ones with quite fascinating mosfet-cascades reaching nearly 100A spikes - but dont remember that url.
 

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Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Hello Sandy,

So nice to read supportive posts.  It's rather rare in my history.  LOL. Thanks for the kind comments.

Very interesting to see your comments on the battery arrangement.  I didn't realise that this was simply a battery recharge system.  I see it more as a discharge/recharge number that should go some way to giving us a significant conservation of charge.  I've run the idea through some battery chemists/experts - alkaline and lead acid - and there seems to be some consensus on the theory.  I'm waiting for a detailed analysis from a boffin.  But on the face of it - it may very well work.  The more so in the light of Fritz's comments on how the batteries seem to prefer those heavy duty spikes.  I kept to that unconventional schematic simply to stress the 'mirror image' which is the kind of symmetry that fascinates me.  But GUYS.  If that works - then we've put paid to our dependancy on the average utility supplier.  Theoretically it would take a bank of batteries and we could all hook off grid.  Got to be a good thing.  And I see it being somewhat usable for our electric motors.  I'm anticipating marginal losses - at best - as shown in our 'proof of concept' experiments.  The principle is just an extension of that field model - as you've pointed out.   Frankly the only barrier to this is 'prejudice'.  And I see those hide bound attitudes falling to their knees - all over the place.  What a pleasure.  ;D

Glad you like my zipons.  They've been rather abused - but I think they're beginning to hold their heads up at last.  Certainly it's seductively logical.  But - again, I'm no expert.  Just very much into patterns and symmetries.  It's obsessively interesting once you get into this.

Thank you for explaining Otto's questions.  You're right.  It's better to let the system find it's own resonating frequency and I don't know that one can impose this.  Not without first having some extraordinarlly exact values on the inductance and how this effects the ohmic values.  Not easy given various alloys and materials and the vagaries from different manufacturers.  But it would be nice to establish the math to better predict the results.  I think this is one of the goals of the academics involved here.

So Sandy.  Thanks again and delighted to see your interest.  I'd be glad of any input you may want re the thesis.  Just let me know. 

Kindest regards,
Rosemary



Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Hello Fritz. 

Very intrigued to learn that this is a standard 'recharge system' as already advanced.  That's a really good thing.  But I would suggest that if this works on our cylinder - then it should obviate the need for that MOSFET - or the entire dependancy on it.  Perhaps some shared function between the two. 

But, as mentioned, that also puts paid to our need for a utility supplier.  Frankly I only used the acid/alkaline number to get the logic across to our chemists.  I think the system would work just as well between two acid batteries.  But whichever is required - the fact is that we're looking at a potentially 'closed' system.  It's been hitting our mainstream representatives between the eyes - because it's consistent with their own knowledge of what to expect - yet resulting in something that is totally unexpected.  One comment - explosive - was 'that's perpetual motion'.  LOL.  I immediately disabused him and pointed out that SOME losses were inevitable.  I'm sort of learning how to be diplomatic in my old age.

But the solution as presented is way too simplistic.  We may very well need to supplement those cycles with some hefty spikes from inductive components.  And that calls for ever more complex switches.  But.  There's enough interest to try - whatever's needed.  That's a healthy baseline for the experiments.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary

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Offline fritz

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Hi Rosemary,

BTW: One of the first "suppressed" technologies I remember were recharging alkaline batteries. This was probably 25 yrs ago. In the end they sold special alkaline batteries - which could be recharged up to 5 times or so (with rapidly decreasing amphours).
From my experiments with batteries / accumulators - there is a certain charge (depending on battery and size) - which is immediatly available at the electrodes. If you consume more than that - some chemical transfer is involved which has a time constant, adds internal resistance an generates losses ;D ;D.
So if you load the battery with a well defined pulse - and let it chill until the ion exchange replaces that immediatly consumable charge - until you load the next pulse - you avoid the intrinsic losses you have on normal DC discharge. If you discharge with DC - a fraction of the (theoretical) available amphours is consumed by losses which warm up the battery. The complementary principle is used with pulse reflex chargers - where you charge the battery with high and short current pulses - in sequence with as short "skimming" pulse which shortens the battery leads - and a chill out phase. Length of current and skimming pulse is done adaptive with a microcontroller with the aim to just transfer the maximum possible charge to the electrodes (which can be done with minimum internal resistance) - and avoid DC charging where internal resistance goes up.
That megapulse/battery recycle thing just interacts with that immediatly consumable charge - loads the coil and feeds the energy back to the battery.
Well, kind of regular training which keeps the lazy sulfur crystals off the electrodes. ;D ;D ;D

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Hi Fritz - I must say I'm getting really intrigued with the extent of your knowledge.  I take it you're a chemist.  I was told - by one of the battery manufacturers that those early alkaline batteries have actually never 'proved' recharge efficiencies.  Not sure of the chemistry involved.  Could you enlighten me?  Apparently that's why he recommended the nickle metal hydride number.

What I do know is that there's been a surprising lack of objection to the 'thinking' in using batteries like this.  And, as mentioned I'm captivated by the symmetry.  But I'm certainly not satisfied that we couldn't just use lead acids together to achieve the same effect.  I get it that you're advising some critical speed to the current delivery to reach that optimised recharge rate.  Frankly - on this kind of arrangement the switch can be designed to be as slow or fast as required to get to this value.  The only proviso is that energy is continually applied to the load - as required.

But what gets me is the simplicity.  If this works - as I see it - then what price utility suppliers?  They'll be 'dead in the water' - surely?  I see a possible requirement for some panels - greatly reduced from what is conventionally seen as needed - and one can operate a household with nothing but rechargeable batteries.  That's got to be cheaper than a grid supply. 

In any event.  We've still got to get some tests up.  But this circuit will definitely be a part of that.  The more so as the design is so much more elegant than those noisy switches.  Here's hoping.  But it may not need so much 'hope'.  Certainly the logic is clear enough to mainstream.  Not that obscure.  Why has this not been progressed if the knowledge has been out there?  Am I missing something?

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Offline fritz

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Limiting the consumed / transfered charge to what is immediatly available is an interesting concept. I would assume that this charge is transfered in almost cap-a-like manner. fascinating.

Offline otto

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Hello all

@Rosemary

thanks for your answers.

Otto

Offline Rosemary Ainslie

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Hello Otto - not sure that my answers were much help.  But always a pleasure.   :D  Hopefully you'll come up with some much needed solutions to those switches in both circuit configurations.  The one thing that needs full exploration is the optimised amount of induction on the circuit.  At this stage - for simplicity - the idea is to keep the inductance on the resistor.

And Fritz - not sure what you're seeing there.  But I'm glad you're getting into this.  I'm reasonably certain you've seen this already - but there's an ac current on the load in that schematic of mine.  That should be enough to turn a motor reasonably efficiently.  I see this as something that may have uses on electric vehicles.  I hope so anyway. While SA boast electric car manufacturers they don't have the resources for the kind of experimentation that could exploit this.  I'd love to get this across to some manufacturer that does.  It would be SO nice to see it exploited.

Kindest regards,
Rosemary
http://www.scribd.com/aetherevarising

Offline fritz

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Hi Fritz - I must say I'm getting really intrigued with the extent of your knowledge.  I take it you're a chemist.  I was told - by one of the battery manufacturers that those early alkaline batteries have actually never 'proved' recharge efficiencies.  Not sure of the chemistry involved.  Could you enlighten me?  Apparently that's why he recommended the nickle metal hydride number.

In those early days - battery manufactors were pretty scared about the possibility to recharge their batteries. This is why I think they invested lots of money to produce unrechargeable alkalines. (Everything else would have been commercial nonsense)
The available NiCds (AA) had 250mAh and had a high leakage current - no competitor to traditional alkalines.

What I do know is that there's been a surprising lack of objection to the 'thinking' in using batteries like this.  And, as mentioned I'm captivated by the symmetry.  But I'm certainly not satisfied that we couldn't just use lead acids together to achieve the same effect.  I get it that you're advising some critical speed to the current delivery to reach that optimised recharge rate.  Frankly - on this kind of arrangement the switch can be designed to be as slow or fast as required to get to this value.  The only proviso is that energy is continually applied to the load - as required.

If you use batteries like this - you have to think about composite devices. There is an energy conversion part which has special DC/AC characteristics - as well as an energy storage part. On experimental accumulators for storing huge amounts of energy - they use an electrolyte reservoir (for storage) and an extra converter part with electrolyte plates.

The energy conversion part maybe thought of electrolyte condensor with huge capacity in parallel with tight coupled voltage source(with restricted charge)
As long as you operate that with well defined pulses for discharge/charge - the storage part remains almost untouched - which boost the efficiency to a pretty high degree.

Another point is that I think the properties of this conversion part  stay almost the same until the battery is completly empty.

Both effects in combination increase the harvestable energy to a level somewhat completly different as with DC.

But what gets me is the simplicity.  If this works - as I see it - then what price utility suppliers?  They'll be 'dead in the water' - surely?  I see a possible requirement for some panels - greatly reduced from what is conventionally seen as needed - and one can operate a household with nothing but rechargeable batteries.  That's got to be cheaper than a grid supply. 

In any event.  We've still got to get some tests up.  But this circuit will definitely be a part of that.  The more so as the design is so much more elegant than those noisy switches.  Here's hoping.  But it may not need so much 'hope'.  Certainly the logic is clear enough to mainstream.  Not that obscure.  Why has this not been progressed if the knowledge has been out there?  Am I missing something?

At least I would see a huge increase in lifetime and capacity. Everything else is ouf of my scope at the moment.
The major problem I see is that you need tight inter-disciplinary research for that. The electrical guys are not interested in batteries - as long there is no chip which does it all - and the chemistry guys are interested in selling batteries as long as they can. So (my opinion)commercially - no go - until there is a major change.



 

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