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New Battery systems => Other new battery systems => Topic started by: lasersaber on June 08, 2010, 05:39:33 PM
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Hi Everybody,
I have been testing my air battery designs since May 10, 2010. I have now started getting ready to take the next step. I have some large 3 inch carbon rods on order and I plan on making some serious long term power with these. I will post my progress in this thread. I will also be making a video showing how to make these in the near future.
Check out my video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8wk8a_-D1A
Check out my other videos for more information on my previous designs.
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Lasersaber,
Thanks for your post. I have been watching your videos and subscribed.
You make great videos that are clear, well lit and a joy to watch. You also have an exceptional talent explaining and demonstrating what you are doing. I strongly suggest people visit you on YouTube and checkout your work. Also the subject matter is very intriguing and the simplicity of the devices and batteries you have chosen to work with (and improve on) makes it very motivating to do the same.
Thanks again.
jt
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Very well done. That is good light you are getting from that cfl. I am looking forward to following your progress.
Bill
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great work! im looking farward for more :)
keep up the good work.
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@Lasersaber
Nice work again , are you still using the magnesium ribbon ?
I was thinking some zinc ribbon could deliver more current , it is the highest of the stable elements , a while back some one showed a simple zinc air battery with over 1.5 amps of current , it will also theoretically out last the magnesium ribbon.
The only element capable or producing more current is aluminum but is really unstable and doesn't last long ...
Mark
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Would you try to make an Air Zinc battery.
The battery has more powerful and high density.
You can check it out below link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPXhNnMkpe8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLJwtuCQi0c
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Thank you lasersaber.
This is really great work.
From the first time you introduced the magnesium ribbon to this equation, you have added more and more to the possibilities of these batteries.
I am so impressed.
I am also very pleased that you continue to share your experiments with this crowd.
Oh, and thanks for the next idea on what to do with the rest of those soft cores I bought! ;D
jeanna
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@all
I got a flash idea last night before going to bed , i tried to imagine how NS would to it if he was in my shoes .
To do this , i need to restrict my self to what i have around and not buy anything , and be of my time .
After thinking about it a bit , i took a hard drive plater for use as a anode (palladium is way up there with gold ) it should not deteriorate plus its potential 0 or .05 v compared to copper.35 this means any battery using a copper in the pair could be replaced by the disc and have .3 volts more .
With a wet paper between the disc and a piece of aluminum foil i got .880 and i also tried steel .840. I am contemplating making a iron /palladium cell , that should last long ...
I bet i can use a plater on each side of a steel pancake coil and maybe separate the iron coil windings with a insulated copper wire and pulse that coil with the power of the battery , i have many plater so it can have many layers ...
Mark
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I got my air battery to light a white led today!!
It was more of a struggle, because the carbon rods broke when I took them out of the ground, so they are 4 1/2 inches short.
They are 1/4 inch diameter too so kind of narrow.
I did as lasersaber did and wrapped the carbon with cotton cloth and then wrapped the magnesium around that.
I did not get this to start with air, so I misted the cloth with water.
It went on and is still on 2 hours later.
I will wait and see, because while putting masking tape around over the magnesium is a great idea for tightness and great contact, if it does not start up, I will break the magnesium ribbon if I remove the tape.
So, that is waiting.
Anyway...
yeay!
The joule thief is one that has a tor-23 toroid and 2, 20(?) turn secondaries with a led each. one is red and the other is white.
jeanna
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I got my air battery to light a white led today!!
It was more of a struggle, because the carbon rods broke when I took them out of the ground, so they are 4 1/2 inches short.
They are 1/4 inch diameter too so kind of narrow.
I did as lasersaber did and wrapped the carbon with cotton cloth and then wrapped the magnesium around that.
I did not get this to start with air, so I misted the cloth with water.
It went on and is still on 2 hours later.
I will wait and see, because while putting masking tape around over the magnesium is a great idea for tightness and great contact, if it does not start up, I will break the magnesium ribbon if I remove the tape.
So, that is waiting.
Anyway...
yeay!
The joule thief is one that has a tor-23 toroid and 2, 20(?) turn secondaries with a led each. one is red and the other is white.
jeanna
How about using an Ace bandage for tightness and great contact, instead of tape?
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Hi Everybody,
I have been testing my air battery designs since May 10, 2010. I have now started getting ready to take the next step. I have some large 3 inch carbon rods on order and I plan on making some serious long term power with these. I will post my progress in this thread. I will also be making a video showing how to make these in the near future.
Check out my video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8wk8a_-D1A
Check out my other videos for more information on my previous designs.
Dear lasersaber, read your article, saw your video. Sorry to say I could not make out exactly what your experiment is? Sorry, I am a novice. Just what is exactly an Air Battery? What is the principle behind it? I could see some copper coils, soft iron cores, something rotating in the foreground (supposed to be a motor running for 3 days) and a long tube supposed to be the air battery. I will be grateful if you explain the whole stuff and its theory more clearly so that I can also make the thing and post my own results. Or maybe some explicit links to other sites? Thanks
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chinmoy1955
I am making a video showing exactly how to build these. Unfortunately after shooting almost all the video clips they got accidently deleted. The air batteries I built for the video work very well. I really do not want to take them apart just to remake them for a video. I decided to order some more graphite rods and video the making process on my next build. I will try to answer all the questions people have been asking in that future video.
Here is where I bought my graphite rods: http://www.graphitestore.com/itemDetails.asp?search_string=GT001420&search_mode=1&item_id=491&curPage=1
These rods hold one roll of magnesium ribbon perfectly. It is very important that when you warp on the ribbon you leave a small space between each warp. I am using paper towel between the graphite rod and the ribbon. I will post a video soon.
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1.5 - 1.7 volts
2 - 2.5 amps
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG8qyN7y-PE
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@lasersaber
Sweet im thinking about building a couple of these for garage lights for a buddy, what kinda erosion/decayy would we see on one of these after say a year or so? Not moistened mind you just in a lake town :) . And would this magnesium roll be enough to cover the 3 inch rod you showed in the link above
http://www.ecrater.com/p/1984355/1-roll-75-ft-of-magnesium-ribbon-25-grams-998 (http://www.ecrater.com/p/1984355/1-roll-75-ft-of-magnesium-ribbon-25-grams-998)
Joe
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I get all my magnesium ribbon from this guy: http://www.mcssl.com/store/gallium-source/magnesium-metal
I may go for his deal on 100 hundred rolls: http://www.mcssl.com/store/gallium-source/048---magnesium-ribbon-100-rolls-free-shipping
$3.25 a roll seems like a pretty good deal to me.
Until I have tested these batteries for over a year I cannot really tell you how long they will last. It's too soon to know for sure.
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Hi,
This is a great thread. Great video's
It will be interesing to see how long they last.
Here is a link to a commecial battery using similar principles. Unfortunately they can only be used a few times.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/accessories/0,39101000,49292553,00.htm
They were released in Japan in 2007
Kind Regards
Mark
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Just a video on the NoPoPo battery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh77QP_IQPM
Mark
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@lasersaber
Thanks for your video, it was great.
I have one question.
You copper wire, how far did you drill down into the rod? would there be any advantage in drilling further down and say use a rod to increase the surface area? Just thinking aloud.
I posted a couple of links on the Nopopo battery. Unfortunately they cost a fortune ($15 each) and only last once filled four ties. I am really interested in your battery the key will be how long it will last. I gather the magnesium is the only thing that will corode and it should be easy enough to wind another ribbon on to recondition the battery with time.
Many thanks and great work
Mark
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Hello Everyone,
I've been following everyone's work for a while, especially the work on the JT circuit and these Air Batteries by Lasersaber. Well i figured it's time i began to contribute some myself. I rewound some Air Batteries today using Lasersaber's newest video and got pretty good results, but still no significant current from just the moisture in the air. (I live in Southern CA by the way so there's not much moisture in the air in the summer. ;D) By adding a few drops of water i was able to light just about any LED or small set of LEDs to full brightness. That's a lot better considering that before i literally had to soak the Air Batteries to get this amount of current. So now i have redone the Batteries only this time i decided to add a bit of baking soda to the mixture instead of just salt, and it got me a good jump in current. I was able to light some LEDs off humidity this time around, and by wiring two together and adding about a ML of water to each I was able to light a fluorescent using a Jeanna's Light JT circuit. So I thought that was pretty neat and i will leave you guys with a picture to go with this, and keep up the good work everyone.
-Pete
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Hello Everyone,
I've been following everyone's work for a while, especially the work on the JT circuit and these Air Batteries by Lasersaber. Well i figured it's time i began to contribute some myself. I rewound some Air Batteries today using Lasersaber's newest video and got pretty good results, but still no significant current from just the moisture in the air. (I live in Southern CA by the way so there's not much moisture in the air in the summer. ;D) By adding a few drops of water i was able to light just about any LED or small set of A to full brightness. That's a lot better considering that before i literally had to soak the Air Batteries to get this amount of current. So now i have redone the Batteries only this time i decided to add a bit of baking soda to the mixture instead of just salt, and it got me a good jump in current. I was able to light some LEDs off humidity this time around, and by wiring two together and adding about a ML of water to each I was able to light a fluorescent using a Jeanna's Light JT circuit. So I thought that was pretty neat and i will leave you guys with a picture to go with this, and keep up the good work everyone.
-Pete
How long will this run continously?
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So now i have redone the Batteries only this time i decided to add a bit of baking soda to the mixture instead of just salt, and it got me a good jump in current. I was able to light some LEDs off humidity this time around, and by wiring two together and adding about a ML of water to each I was able to light a fluorescent using a Jeanna's Light JT circuit. So I thought that was pretty neat and i will leave you guys with a picture to go with this, and keep up the good work everyone.
-Pete
Nice work, Pete!
I have one like that and I was also struggling to make it do much.
So far 2 leds in series but not fully bright is the best I have done.
I can get them fully bright, but then they are only on half the time about 15 seconds on then 15 seconds off, so that won't do.
I guess it is time to add some magnesium sulphate to the cotton to see if that ups the amps as well as salt or baking soda.
thank you!
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@billmehess,
The studies are still incomplete, but, with a plant battery, it seems that you will use up around 1.2gr -1.6 gr of magnesium in 8 days with constantly wet soil.
There is a lot more to test, but when it takes a week at a time, the tests go on for a while. But that should give you a place to start.
[1.2gr is around 20 inches and 1.6 is around 30 inches of magnesium ribbon.
And the batteries offered about 1.5mA to 3mA to the circuit.]
thank you,
jeanna
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Jeanna,
Is there something in your soil that is acidic? I cannot imagine what would A your ribbon go so fast. I have run test batteries at much higher mA currents for weeks on end and not noticed this kind of rapid break down. Maybe there are fertilizers in you plants soil? I will have to get a digital scale so that I can do some tests over time. Maybe the breakdown is so uniform that I just can't detect it by sight. I am doing a long term test now with the batteries used in my last YouTube video. I have had them running the flashlight non stop since I made the video. I have not had to wet them down since I made them and the light is still very bright.
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@lasersaber
is it the magnesium ribbon that breaks down or do you get a chemical buildup between the graphite and the ribbon?
With your first ones you built how are they holding up?
I have ordered the components now and hope to add to this conversation with some results soon. It takes a while to get parts to me in Australia
Kind Regards
Mark
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is it the magnesium ribbon that breaks down or do you get a chemical buildup between the graphite and the ribbon?
I think I have experienced the chemical build up you speak of on a different design. Back when I first tried making these I used a copper pipe instead of a carbon rod. They always worked great right at first but dropped in power rapidly in a very short time. The power dropped but the mag ribbon seemed to be in fine condition. It was because of these early experiments that I switched to a carbon core. Since using the carbon core I have never had this problem. I have not had any issues with the new design yet. My original air batteries are still working fine.
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Jeanna,
Is there something in your soil that is acidic? I cannot imagine what would A your ribbon go so fast. I have run test batteries at much higher mA currents for weeks on end and not noticed this kind of rapid break down. Maybe there are fertilizers in you plants soil? I will have to get a digital scale so that I can do some tests over time.
That is a good plan to get a scale. It helps to have the weight.
Um,
I added dolomite limestone to all but one of mine, so they should not be acidic.
I use something that the mushroom growers use, so there is a lot of organic material in the soil.
I thought it was good.
I mean 1.6gr is a 30 inch piece and it lasted for close to 200 hours running solidly on?
Maybe the breakdown is so uniform that I just can't detect it by sight.
Yes, in fact most of the time mine are failing in only one spot. If they went uniformly they should last longer and better.
I tried the tape to see if it would hold the mag ribbon together, but it is keeping it too dry, as there is very little output.
I am doing a long term test now with the batteries used in my last YouTube video. I have had them running the flashlight non stop since I made the video. I have not had to wet them down since I made them and the light is still very bright.
This is good to know.
I appreciate knowing how long these are lasting.
Also,
Please tell us if the outside ones are still going?
Or, how long they lasted?
thank you,
jeanna
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Back when I first tried making these I used a copper pipe instead of a carbon rod. They always worked great right at first but dropped in power rapidly in a very short time. The power dropped but the mag ribbon seemed to be in fine condition.
What do you think the difference is between the copper and carbon concerning the power drop?
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Also, Please tell us if the outside ones are still going? Or, how long they lasted?
This is what I think is pretty amazing. I ran the outside mag ribbon most of last winter under load. It was still working fine this spring but coming apart at all the splices. I dug up all the underground ribbon and it's the very same ribbon I have been using in all my air battery experiments up until the last two large carbon rod models on my latest YouTube video. I thought I might as well order some new ribbon since they were working so well.
What do you think the difference is between the copper and carbon concerning the power drop?
I would have to do a little research to answer that. I never had this issue when the electrodes were far apart in the ground. I know from experience that it has something to do with the two dissimilar metals being in close proximity to each other. NS coils also seem to suffer from this problem a little bit. I have not noticed it at all in this new air battery design.
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This is what I think is pretty amazing. I ran the outside mag ribbon most of last winter under load. It was still working fine this spring but coming apart at all the splices. I dug up all the underground ribbon and it's the very same ribbon I have been using in all my air battery experiments up until the last two large carbon rod models on my latest YouTube video.
Seriously?
How did you get it to give power and not deteriorate?
Did you put anything on it?
I agree it is truly amazing.
thank you for sharing this,
jeanna
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I think I have experienced the chemical build up you speak of on a different design. Back when I first tried making these I used a copper pipe instead of a carbon rod. They always worked great right at first but dropped in power rapidly in a very short time. The power dropped but the mag ribbon seemed to be in fine condition. It was because of these early experiments that I switched to a carbon core. Since using the carbon core I have never had this problem. I have not had any issues with the new design yet. My original air batteries are still working fine.
Thank you so much for this info. I am really excited about this and eargerly await my part to start building.
Mark
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@all
Not all soil and water is equal , some have alkaline battery some have acid battery , It would probably be a good thing to test the PH levels ...
This could give us a hint , the cathode reaction should be different , and we could determine witch is better for its lifespan .
Mark
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This is what I think is pretty amazing. I ran the outside mag A most of last winter under load. It was still working fine this spring but coming apart at all the splices. I dug up all the underground ribbon and it's the very same ribbon I have been using in all my air battery experiments up until the last two large carbon rod models on my latest YouTube video.
I agree with Jeanna i also think that's truly amazing. On my first plant batteries and earth batteries, i got just about the same results as Jeanna. The mag ribbon would last about a week running about 4 LEDs continuously.
On my first Air Batteries I used an old shirt for the cotton then i moved on to cotton gauze, but still not a true Air Battery as i had to keep it really wet down to get about 20-25ma of power. The magnesium lasted about a week and a half on these before the mag would eventually deteriorate and break somewhere.
As for these new ones I just built, we'll just have to wait and see but they should last longer since they use a lot less water.
@billmehess,
As Jeanna stated studies on the Air batteries is still incomplete. Although if you were referring to the light, I can tell you as of right now the two Air Batteries will light the fluorescent for about an hour before i have to add another ML of water to each to light it up again.
I have a couple more pictures to share with everyone before I go:
First one is lighting a red LED with no added water, just from moisture in the air. Then I added just one drop of water to the center, and i got enough power to light these three white LEDs.
-Pete
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Hi Pete
Your voltmeter is showing a reading of .57 volts. How are you able to run 3 LED's on this small amount of voltage?
Bill
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@Pete
It's great to see you making these. I really think we need to keep sharing our results and trying new things to improve on the design even more. Thanks for the great pictures. Great job!
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Hi Pete
Your voltmeter is showing a reading of .57 volts. How are you able to run 3 LED's on this small amount of voltage?
Bill
Hi Bill,
Sorry I probably should've mentioned I have a joule thief glued to the back of those lights.
oops :D
@Lasersaber,
Thank you and I agree about sharing our results on these batteries to improve designs and efficiency. Thank you for all the contributions you've made as well.
-Pete
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lasersaber, thanks for posting/sharing your info - good vids.
Have you checked out aluminum-air batteries? Similar idea yet most of the aluminum can be recycled/reclaimed from the aluminum-oxide in the electrolyte making for a cheaper and closer to a 'closed' loop.
Rate of magnesium consumption:
I know it's been asked and you probably don't have the answer as of yet, but this is of great importance to determine.
Carbon rod:
what other materials(cheaper) might be used as a replacement?
Electrolyte:
as has been mentioned - water pH levels, salt content, other additives/solutions/concentrations.
Useful amp/hours and $ per amp/hour:
A typical AA battery is rated 2 amp/hours discharging from 1.5V to 0.9V.
The discharge curve is relatively linear in that range, so the average voltage is 1.2V.
The power then, is 1.2V times 2 amp/hour = 2.4 watt/hours.
$0.25/2.4 watt/hours = $.104 watt/hour = $104 kWh for AA battery power
Power from the grid = $.12 kWh
graphite rods: 2x$30 = $60
magnesium 25g: $7 (what is total grams of magnesium used on each?)
total: $67
Say the 2 ran for 1 month (seems a very long time to be able to produce full power):
1.5v x (2 amps x 24hours x 30 days) = 2160 watt/hours
$67/2160 watt/hours = $.03 watt/hour = $31 kWh
BUT - if the *consumable" cost is $7 of magnesium:
$7/2160 = $0.0032 = $3.24 kWh
So: the final cost analysis needs to be determined.
Power Grid = $0.12 kWh
AA Battery = $104.00 kWh = 866 times more expensive than grid
Air Battery = $3.24 kWh = 27 times more expensive than grid
Summary of cost:
Considering a magnesium consumption of $7 as the only consumable cost,
the air battery would have to provide full power for -> 27 months or 2.25 years to compete with the cost of grid power using 'arbitrary' efficiency assumptions.
Some ideas/thoughts/questions/efficacy issues to consider.
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@all
I got this link , with zinc ribbon and many more goodies http://www.rotometals.com/Zinc-Wire-s/42.htm
But we have to come to a conclusion the surface area is greater on the ribbon, this will make it better then any round wire. Using flat wire will always make stronger battery , the next step would be bigger and bigger wire .
I really think we should look into using sheet metal , we could cut it then to any desired size and bend it to any shape we fantasized , power could also be calculated by the contact area .
By having flexible material , we could double triple the power generated by Lasersaber battery .
Mark
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These rods hold one roll of magnesium ribbon perfectly.
Didn't see this... answers the question of how much magnesium used:
2 batteries in series = 1.5v x 2 amps = 3 watts
Magnesium 2 x 25g = $7 wholesale - $14 retail
So, for how long until the batteries produce 50% power and need refurbishing?
This equals 2.25 watts avg. output.
$10 consumables ($7 wholesale plus $3 misc)
2.25 watts x 444 hours = 1 kWh
444 hours / 24 hours = 18.5 days
$10/$0.12 (grid) = 83
83 x 18.5 days = 1537 days or 4.21 years of output required without replacing any materials of the airbatteries to equal the cost of grid power.
(however, this doesn't even include the initial capital costs of the supporting structures ie: carbon rods etc)
Edit:
Factor in the cost of the rods and it's more like 9 years.
No way will they work for 4-9 years without replacing the materials.
4 months maybe, but not years.
It's a neat idea, but an expensive one that would require either a drastic increase in ouput or decrease in cost to be practical.
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Great posts everyone.
I am looking at doing it as a plate like a car battery so it is easy to replace the manesium plates. It is all to do with the surface area. magnesium itself raw is $3 per kilogram or 3 cents per gram. lets double or even triple that to have it processed into plates. it will never proberbly compete with grid but for portable power applications would have a lot of potential.
How long they last will be interesting and it may be a matter of removing the oxide that builds up rather than replacing the magnesium that often. Food for thought.
When compared with the cost of lithium batteries or other recharbale batteries that have a limited life span let alone the cost of charging and the inconvienience i tink these will win hands down
the true advantage would come if these we to trickle charge other batteries. For camping and other infrequent use items it would be a winner.
There are literally thousands of applications for this. Think of an electric motor scooter that still retianed the normal batteries but had some of these charging. Everytime you stopped or wasnt using it it would be charging itself.
Anyway I think it is exciting
mark
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http://www.cleanteam.ch/blog/tag/magnesium-battery
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it will never proberbly compete with grid but for portable power applications would have a lot of potential.
When compared with the cost of lithium batteries or other recharbale batteries that have a limited life span let alone the cost of charging and the inconvienience i tink these will win hands down
the true advantage would come if these we to trickle charge other batteries. For camping and other infrequent use items it would be a winner.
There are literally thousands of applications for this. Think of an electric motor scooter that still retianed the normal batteries but had some of these charging. Everytime you stopped or wasnt using it it would be charging itself.
Portable power = energy density
That's the 'power' of lithium-ion, lot's of juice in a small/light-weight package = 128 wh/kg
Taking the scooter idea as an example:
2kWh per 45 miles (http://www.gizmag.com/yogo-electric-scooter-removable-battery/14764/)
Lithium battery = 22 kg
So if you wish to recharge the battery overnight, you need to replace:
2kWh/8 hours = 250 Watt charger
Using the current airbattery discussed here:
250 watts/ 1.5 watts per cell = 166 cells
What is the weight per cell? 1.5kg?
1.5kg x 166 cells = 250kg = $5,810 ($35x166)
Result: spending $5,810 on 250kg on airbatteries to recharge your 22kg scooter batteries.
(10x the weight of the scooter batteries and 2x the cost of the entire scooter)
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Summary:
To be practical/useful/economical IMO:
1) Graphite rod must be replaced - too expensive, big and heavy
2) Larger reaction surface area
3) improved electrolyte
4) aluminum rather than magnesium?
5) overall decrease in cost, size and weight
6) overall increase in output
Those are my suggestions/recommendations and look forward to seeing how it progresses.
P.S. If only EESTOR would ever finish development on their supposed super-capacitor we will see amazing things - still wondering though if it is just 'vapor-ware' and pie-in-the-sky dreaming!
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@Captain Hook
thank you for the reality check.
However their is always more than one way to skin a cat
http://www.magpowersystems.com/
http://www.cleanteam.ch/blog/tag/magnesium-battery
http://www.physorg.com/news155569564.html
Hope this information is usefull
Kind Regards
mark
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@capthook,
I agree that these air batteries may not be practical for big applications such as the scooter idea, but neither is your standard AA battery. They have the same problem, cost over efficiency, not to mention they are really bad for the environment. However we're just getting started on these air batteries and efficiency/wattage has been improving. My latest replications of lasersaber's designs get about 300ma@1.6v, roughly half a watt and they only weigh in at about 69g. So based on this you should be able to get the 250 watts with about 35kg as opposed to the 250kg. Still not competitive and probably never will, but that won't stop me from improving these to get the most out of them, and to be honest they're just really cool :). I like the thought of being able to have a reliable portable power source even if it may only be for two weeks. In a black out or camping trip where you can't recharge your Li-ion's and your regular batteries die out, these air batteries will come to the rescue.
This brings me to a new air battery I made last night. I have a few small pieces of a carbon rod that broke so I decided to make a small one just to see how much power I can get off it. I am able to get about 35-40ma, which kind of surprised me I wasn't expecting that much off an air battery so small. It lights the three LEDs easily as you can see by the picture.
P.S. I have nothing against Li-ion, I have a love hate relationship with them ;D as I know how volatile they can be at times, yet they do come in handy.
-Pete
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@pete
Love the small battery, would be great having one of these trickle charging one of my torches or powering cell phone when I go bush.
i was a little of beam with the scooter idea but camping and remote power its a great idea.
I guess time will tell how long they will last before the magnesium has to be replaced. I think the salt is essential somehow to extend the life.
mark
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Congratulations Lasersaber, your ideas are great! Please continue posting videos.
I am not so much interested in "efficiency" and "costs" as Capthook seems to be.
It is important to build simple batteries with materials at hand. Even if they are not as efficient as commercially available batteries and even if they are theoretically expensive. First, this makes great science projects and second, it might become necessary in an emergency or during an economic downturn (as we seem to experience at present). Small radios, clocks and even some low level lighting can be driven by these simple set ups.
If one has materials at hand (e.g. for free, because people are throwing things away), costs are not important. And one still gets "some electricity", although there might be theoretical possibilities to get more with different setups. In practice, many things are for free (just collect them) and even little electricity might be a big help.
Also "size" and "weight" is not so important for a battery used at home (e.g. for emergency lighting and as an emergency radio power supply), because such a "thing" can also serve as a designer object or conversation peace. Just throw out some vases or useless furniture. Oh yes, vases, they can be turned into batteries (use salt water and two strips of different metals).
Look at the table in the middle of this page, it gives ideas about the metals to use:
http://www.corrosionist.com/Galvanic_Corrosion.htm
Other nice pages from this site:
http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/galcorr.htm
http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/electrochem_cells.htm
http://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/the_electrochemistry_of_corrosion_with_figures.pdf
Aluminium can be found easily, therefore one should concentrate on it (instaed of magnesium, which is hard to come by for free). Many throw away food containers are made from aluminium or at least some aluminium alloy.
The second metal could be copper, because copper pipes are easy to get (e.g. out of abandoned buildings). Also many grades of steel are good and can be found for free (e.g. out of abandoned cars; the paint has to be scrapped off).
I am working with aluminium as one metal and copper or steel as the galvanic counterpart. Lasersaber's idea of using kitchen paper towels soaked in salt water as an electrolyte is very good and simple. Once my cells are finished I will post them. I am working on practical set ups which allow easy adding of salt water and easy changing of the paper towels (no masking tape). Any paper should work, even newspapers.
I posted an "aluminium - tile cement - copper cell" which already works for weeks. I have to dip it in water every few days or place it outside for an hour when the air is damp to "recharge" it:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=972.825
Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #833 on: May 31, 2010, 11:22:17 PM »
The paper towel soaked in salt water should work much better than the tile cement, altough it is less sturdy and more difficult to maintain over long periods. The tile cement can also be soaked with salt water (which I still have to try, because I do not want to spoil my little set up yet; I want to do a long time test with it as it is).
Greetings, Conrad
-
@capthook
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. None of the points you mentioned really matter for the applications I have in mind. Here are some things to consider.
1 - Not everyone in this world has access to the grid.
2 - The Magnesium ribbon I am using can be bought easily for $3.50 a roll. It may be even less in bulk from other sources.
3 - I think this same design could be built using aluminum and other metals.
4 - The carbon rod could also be a hollow tube design that would use at least 75% less carbon.
5 - They may very well last much longer than you are predicting.
I have two tests projects running at my house now that I will leave running until they stop. This will give us some idea on how long they will last. I have a motor running off a very small air battery and the flashlight connected to two large air batteries seen in my last YouTube video. I will run them with out wetting them down and under constant load and see how long until they stop.
I have a dream of getting these perfected and making something like the Oxford Electric Bell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell I think having an electric motor that runs for years on end with no up keep would be very cool. I think I may have already have this worked out but the only way to know is more long term testing.
-
1 - Not everyone in this world has access to the grid.
2 - The Magnesium ribbon I am using can be bought easily for $3.50 a roll. It may be even less in bulk from other sources.
3 - I think this same design could be built using aluminum and other metals.
4 - The carbon rod could also be a hollow tube design that would use at least 75% less carbon.
I hope you folks don't think I'm saying there is no value to what is being discussed/examined here.
The idea of creating electricity from 'simple' items and in a 'simple' way is great.
Just wanted to give some numbers/math/costs etc. for all to see/use for a better evaluation.
To your points:
1 - Those without grid access tend to be in extremely poor areas so $/watt becomes even more important.
Solar/sun is available everywhere and the current benchmark of $1/watt from First Solar is hard to beat.
To cut the cost of the current airbattery by 1/2 is still $17/1.5W = $11/watt.
3 - Aluminum will probably see a reduction in output but result in production at a much lower $/watt.
4 - Excellent! To expand on that idea, a 2nd layer of anodic material (aluminum) could be added to the interior of the tube, increasing output per cubic meter by 2x. And the reduced graphite content would greatly reduce costs. However, such a design would require speciality fabrication at increased initial tooling costs.
And for portable applications, watt/kg needs to be maximized.
From a chart (attached) in one of conradelektro's links (A for those links conradelektro), it shows graphite as the best cathode material and magnesium as the best anode materials.
The power you are producing is good @ ~ 2 amps and is undoubtly a direct result of using these materials.
However, the trade-off between output/size/weight/cost may favor materials like stainless steel and aluminium.
I really like your idea #4 - modifying the carbon rods.
The possibility of a 75% reduction weight/cost while increasing output by 2x.
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@capthook
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. None of the points you mentioned really matter for the applications I have in mind.
Ahem...
1) $/watt is of primary importance and matters to *all* applications
2) wh/kg is of primary importance for *portable* applications
;)
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Ahem...
1) $/watt is of primary importance and matters to *all* applications
2) wh/kg is of primary importance for *portable* applications
If you are looking for someone to argue with you will find that I am much more interested in building things than discussing in theory whether or not they will work.
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Well, well, well,
I spent most of the morning researching magnesium stone (magnesite and bruxite) and sourcing magnesium so it could be used as a fuel cell. I do not know how to do that, but it seemed the right material.
I finished all I could do, then came here, and I am so glad you put those links up.
How do we find magnesium plates?
@pete,
Did you give us the details of the broken carbon rod thing?
It looks small and tidy, but I want details like how much of each material, please?
@conrad,
I will study that post more. I did not realize that cell has done so well.
All mine immediately ate through the electrodes which were Aluminum.
(of course they were making H2 gas with the aluminum)
@lasersaber,
Thanks for all your sharing.
It really helps.
The 5 inch broken carbon (welding) rod and 1.6gr mag ribbon battery I made a week ago started up after I opened the tape to allow some moisture in to the cloth, and it has been running a joule thief (for 14 hours) since yesterday.
thank you,
jeanna
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[quote A=jeanna link=topic=9276.msg245540#msg245540 date=1276805949]
@pete,
Did you give us the details of the broken carbon rod thing?
It looks small and tidy, but I want details like how much of each material, please?
[/quote]
Hi Jeanna,
I Didn't take precise measurements, but I have a really good estimate:
The carbon rod is roughly 2 inches long with a 1/2 inch diameter.
I used 11 turns of mag ribbon, so Pi times diameter equals 1.57 inches times 11 equals a total of 17.27 inches of mag ribbon, lets just say 18 to be safe.
I used a regular paper towel that i soaked in the solution i had mentioned before, the mixture I used is about 4 cups of water 1 tbl spoon of salt and about another tbl spoon of baking soda.
I think that's about it I drilled a small hole at the top of the rod and i just stuck a breadboard jumper cable in there for the anode connection. Coincidentally this is almost exactly the same size of a AA battery :). I hope this helps let me know if you have any more questions. Keep up the good work I'm a big fan of yours, lasersaber, lidmotor, and pirate's i really enjoy all of your videos and information everyone has shared.(sorry nerd moment ;D)
-Pete
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Excellent!
I will give it a try.
I happen to have only broken welding rods and this looks good.
18 inches without the salt on a 5 inch carbon rod gave me barely enough for a red jtc, so I will do it again with the 2 salts to replicate and see. It will be a quick confirmation, which is always a good thing. :D
Then I will make one with mg sulphate also.
We will get this down.
I got a 1" copper pipe today. The hardware store doesn't even carry 1 1/2 or 2" copper pipe anymore!
But it is bigger than the other one so it will show how much difference size of copper makes.
thank you,
jeanna
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More experiments with paper kitchen towel soaked in salt water
My personal reference cell is still the "copper - tile cement - aluminium cell" as posted here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=972.825
Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #833 on: May 31, 2010, 11:22:17 PM »
The size of the metal sheets is 120 x 120 mm; the metals so far are copper, mild steel and aluminium with little holes.
copper - salt water paper - aluminium --> 0.5 Volt and 1 mA
mild steel - salt water paper - aluminium --> 0.2 Volt and 0.5 mA
copper - tile cement - aluminium --> 1.02 to 1.17 Volt and 0.15 mA (seems to work with air humidity)
Remarks:
- the salt water paper is drying out over night; somehow one has to keep the salt water from evaporating; may be it would be better to submerge the metal plates in a saltwater container (not very practical, but good enough in a big stationary battery with many plates)
- applying pressure on the stack to squeeze the salt water paper helps (as the builders of Stubblefield coils observed)
Of course, one wants graphite and magnesium, which should give up to 1.8 Volt in between in salt water. And acids or many other chemicals work much better than simple table salt. But I am exploring easy to get materials and practical setups; sturdy, easy to build, easy to handle, readily available materials possibly for free like aluminium soda cans, steel from abandoned cars and ordinary salt or possibly sea water.
I posted a few more details about the tile cement:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=972.840
Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #853 on: June 18, 2010 at 10:44:34 AM »
@ Lasersaber:
In this thread, do we discuss graphite - magnesium batteries only, or also other materials?
Greetings, Conrad
-
Hi everyone.
It is time for a little entertainment.
I made a "AA" battery from C and Mg yesterday as Pete showed.
In the first shot it is newly made. You can see the magnesium pretty clearly.
In the second one the 2 leds which are in series are still on after about 24 hours.
I learned the other day that in this jtc if I add a 47uF cap across the leads the light flicker is so fast it is beyond seeing, whereas the 1F memory cap stores more and then lights the light brighter, but only some of the time, depending on the mA output of the battery.
So,
2 1/2 inches length carbon rod (1/4-3/8"? diameter)
0.7 gr Mg ribbon
I also had to tie the Mg tight with a string to get it into close enough contact with the carbon rod.
2N2222 transistor, 470 ohm base r, 84T secondaary jtc
47uF cap across the leads.
#1= newly made
#2= after 24 hours running
jeanna
oops, I forgot to say I soaked the paper towel in epsom salts.
I know it works as a salt, and I am hoping it will outlast table salt and help keep the magnesium on the ribbon ;)
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Hi Pete
Your voltmeter is showing a reading of .57 volts. How are you able to run 3 LED's on this small amount of voltage?
Bill
I meant to answer this yesterday. Sorry for the delay.
When you are using a joule thief and you read across the leads, you will always have a reading of the battery output MINUS the use of the transistor.
so, it is safe to add back around 0.7v
Therefore Lasersaber's reading of 0.57v + 0.7v =1.34v .
jeanna
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@jeanna,
Great job and thanks for your pics. Just one question, when you say it's been runing for 24 hours is that without adding more water for that whole period of time? If so that's really good as mine seems to only last for about 4 hours on one drop of water, although i haven't tried adding a cap to see if that will help i guess i'll try that next. Thanks for sharing your results.
-Pete
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Oh yes, add the cap.
It stopped last night, but when I held the ribbon tight against the cloth it went back on, and that is the reason for the string. (It is yellow string. I think you can see it in the pic.)
So, I think it went out not because it was dry, but it wasn't touching the wet cloth.
But it had a fast flicker, and the cap made that appear to stop.
Try the cap.
I think you will have to try some different cap sizes.
Too big and it stops the light or makes a slooowww pulse; too small and the flicker stays the same.
This is a sweet little AA .
A q:
Are those 3 leds in parallel?
jeanna
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@Jeanna,
Thanks for the info I will definitely try adding some caps. As for your question, yes they are in parallel I took these lights from a small flashlight I bought and I just left the circuit they came in intact and added a JTC to it. I have a few more pictures to share the first one is showing the milli-amp reading off the little cell it drops from about 40 and holds steady at about 31. The second is showing 12 LEDs lit with the same cell all in parallel. Once again thanks for the info.
-Pete
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Nice!
I did not drill the little hole in the carbon. I just wrapped some bare copper wire around it about 6 times. Maybe I should try the little hole on one.
I got my 5 rolls of magnesium wire and it is now easy to try a bunch of things!
31mA is awesome from such a small battery.
jeanna
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@all
All i think soda cans can be used , and cut to fit most any pipe or carbon rod you have , magnesium dose give high voltages but because it is the most anodic element anything we use to connect to it will break the wire , why do car rust galvanic mismatch of metals some water(electrolyte) bam free energy if it only powered the car , humm .
@jeanna
Nice work , on this and the Ns , i have comments on that more on the other tread ...
@conrad
Cement dries in 30 days and take about 3 month to exit the rest of the moisture , dose it still work beyond that ?
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I did not drill the little hole in the carbon. I just wrapped some A copper wire around it about 6 times. Maybe I should try the little hole on one.
I don't think having the hole or not really makes a difference. I use the same method as you on my bigger air batteries, I just wrap bare copper wire on the end. Although having the hole does make them easier to work with.
-Pete
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@ Mk1 - moisture in cement or tile cement ?
My "copper - tile cement - aluminium cell" is now on for about 4 weeks (red LED on the Joule Thief circuit is glowing), so I can not tell any thing about 4 months. But I intend to keep it going as long as possible and will report the result.
Some observations (see the attached photo):
- the tile cement is only about 2 to 3 mm thick, therefore it has dried out much faster than a big volume of concrete; also the little holes in the aluminium sheet let moisture out
- but I think that moisture from the air goes into the tile cement, because the cell becomes weaker when the air is very dry and recovers when the air is damp (rainy day, in the morning when dew settles everywhere)
- I also submerged the cell in water one time and it recovered strongly (the LED became brighter), but damp air is much better and more practical
- when I put the cell in bright sunshine for some hours it becomes weaker, what I attribute to the evaporation of water from the cell (but first it becomes stronger for some time, because the water in the cell is agitated by the temperature increase)
- it is important that the layer of tile cement is as thin as practical (too thick, the effect will weaken; too thin, the cell breaks easily)
- I like the voltage (1.02 to 1.17 Volt depending on air humidity), but the amperage (about 0.15 mA) is a bit disappointing; I will try bigger cells and more cells in parallel
At the moment I am building a cell with mild steel - tile cement -aluminium, to see how this will do.
Other materials will work much better than tile cement. But tile cement is very practical because it strongly sticks to the metals, gives the cell a nice rigidity and sturdiness and can be bought everywhere. Good tile cement also withstands freezing.
Greetings, Conrad
-
Nice work Conrad, I like the design of your cell I'm sure there must be ways to improve on this. I was thinking about what you said about using aluminum for an air battery design and i made one tonight. So far the readings look good, not as much voltage and amperage as the magnesium design but that was expected, but hopefully this one might last longer. I built this one using a 4 inch carbon rod, I wrapped some aluminum i got from a soda can around it and taped it. I'm still using a paper towel with the same solution I mixed before for the layer between the two. So far I get .7v and the amperage holds steady at about 12mA. It's enough to light a white LED, but at about half brightness. I'm sure if I add a cap I can brighten the LED a bit more, possibly full brightness. I plan to build one using foil also, but I like the idea of using cans as there's so many thrown away everywhere, plus I think Jeanna has already tried foil. Hopefully she can enlighten us on her results and experiments a bit more, I know she mentioned that the reaction was creating H2 gas but i don't know what her set up was. Here's a picture of the cell, and once again nice work on your cement cell Conrad.
-Pete
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Hi Everyone,
Just thought I'd share with everyone a new cell design i just built, this one really surprised me. It's composed of a magnesium plate wrapped in a paper towel, wound with copper wire then wrapped in another paper towel, and finally wound with magnesium ribbon. The dimensions of the cell are 3"x1.5" The readings are 1.3v@75mA. It's been lighting the three white LEDs off 1ML of water for about 2 hours now and doesn't show signs of dimming yet. Here is a picture of the amp reading and lighting the LEDs.
I will see how well this holds up overnight and through tomorrow hopefully it doesn't destroy the mag plate too fast.
-Pete
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Nice job Pete. Is your copper wire bare wire or coated?
Also, anyone every try using a chuck of coal instead of graphite?
Bill
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@ Pete (Idl4) -- I am very impressed by the Amperage of your cells!
One could put your magic mixture (4 cups of water 1 tbl spoon of salt and about another tbl spoon of baking soda.)
in a plastic container and submerge two different metals in it (e.g. aluminium cans and lots of copper wire from old cables). If one seals the container fairly well this should last many days if not months.
Wet paper is o.k., but may be one should go all the way to very simple "wet cells" for a stationary home built battery (simple as the liquid is concerned, no acids, no fancy chemicals; just water, salt and soda). The optimal amount of salt and soda should be found in order to avoid waste.
The shape of the metals is then not critical, as long as they are covered by the liquid and do not touch. This should reduce the work needed to prepare the metals. Pieces of plastic could keep the metals appart.
This is of course classic text book stuff, but why not, as long as it is simple and cheap. The "progress" is the recycling of metals and the simplicity of the set up. It does not hurt that the chemical reactions are known since a long time.
The idea is not an "industry" or "money making by new inventions", but some savings and primarily enjoyment by using home made batteries for low energy applications like radios, charging hand held phones and music players or for vintage lights.
It is efficient to re-use thrown away materials. And the Joule Thief type circuits solve the "voltage transformation".
Ideas are floating around in my head.
Greetings, Conrad
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@Pete,
Where did you get that magnesium plate?
I was referring to the crystal cells when I said they made H2 gas.
Stephan made a suggestion once which I tried and which worked very well.
It was Al foil and C graphite from a pencil. (I think charcoal doesn't work well??)
I needed to make 2 in series to light a led, but it worked for quite a long time, like 2-3 days. It is on localjoe's thread which started out as an earth battery thread.
I am sure it could have lit a led with a joule thief circuit, but that was before I knew how to do that.
I used sodium carbonate for the electrolyte in the water.
It is a little more active than bi-carbonate and really worked.
The Al foil got gunked blackened, and probably it would have continued to work if I had cleaned it.
@all,
I was searching for magnesium yesterday and came across information that magnesium is alloyed in the aluminum of soda cans to make them more flexible and easier to form. There is not much, but it should make the Al more active.
BUT
remember you must scrape the plastic from the interior of the cans or you will get nada.
So, maybe a carbon rod or a copper pipe wrapped with salted paper and then dropped into a scorched soda can.
Maybe some fiberglass insulation or old T-shirts could be used to fill the space in the can so it would not need to be filled with liquid, but just be damp.
Right!
WE can recycle our own cans... and make our own power at the same time!
(and we can seed the gulf waters with oil eating microbes too)
:D,
jeanna
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@Maw2432,
Thanks and yes, the copper is bare 22Ga wire.
@Conrad,
Thanks. I like the idea of using cans and old copper from wire to make a wet cell, should be simple enough to make a configuration of cells that will give you a decent amount of power. I also agree I need to work on finding just the right balance on the mixture used to increase efficiency and reduce waste like you said.
The thing I love about using the paper towel idea is that you don't have to use a lot of water to get good current out of a cell, as evidenced even the natural air carries enough moisture to power the cells, and when it dries one could simply store it for use another day and wont be constantly corroding all the time. In my early experiments with magnesium I learned first hand how fast water eats through it. With magnesium I think air batteries is the way to go to prolong its life.
I really do like the idea of a wet cell using metals just laying around and discarded. I'll try to work on something along these lines also, but that would have to be another topic.
@Jeanna,
The magnesium is one of those fire starter plates. I bought a few off ebay a while back I can't remember how much I payed I don't think it was too much though.
Interesting experiment with the Al foil and graphite in sodium carbonate. Thanks for sharing, and yeah I'm sure a JTC would have really worked well.
Just a side note on the aluminum can thing, it's funny I didn't scrape anything off it and it still worked. Now you got me thinking about how much power I could get if I had scraped the inside. :D
@all,
update on the plate cell I did last night, it's been running for about 10 hours now, no additional water although it's only running at about half brightness now, we'll see how it holds up throughout the rest of the day. Thanks again to everyone.
-Pete
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@ all
Magnesium Firestarters are available at Walmart for $7.00
Even less online....
http://www.vitacost.com/Coghlans-Magnesium-Fire-Starter?csrc=BRDC-056389078703
Bill
-
The fire starter blocks are available at harbor freight for under $3.00. If you can catch them on special, they are even less.
Bill
-
I really do like the idea of a wet cell using metals just laying around and discarded. I'll try to work on something along these lines also, but that would have to be another topic.
yeah, me too.
The magnesium is one of those fire starter plates. I bought a few off ebay a while back I can't remember how much I payed I don't think it was too much though.
Oh OK. It looked like a shiny piece of metal like a wide ribbon.
Just a side note on the aluminum can thing, it's funny I didn't scrape anything off it and it still worked. Now you got me thinking about how much power I could get if I had scraped the inside. :D
Some cans do not have plastic.
Coke does.
Maybe 7up doesn't?
I don't drink soda any more so I don't remember which ones are OK.
update on the plate cell I did last night, it's been running for about 10 hours now, no additional water although it's only running at about half brightness now, we'll see how it holds up throughout the rest of the day. Thanks again to everyone.
Excellent.
mine keeps loosening.
I have to figure out how to make it stay tight.
And, the thing about the can... It is really loose, so it won't be as good.
I love these lasersaber air/not air batteries!
jeanna
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Jeanna:
You are familiar with the terrarium principle right? Possibly the thing to do here is to place the battery into a air-tight zip-lock bag (one gallon freezer style with the mechanical zipper built in) so when the moisture evaporates, it is enclosed into a sealed system and may never need watering again.
Just a rambling thought.
Bill
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Hi Bill,
Yes, that would work... good idea!
The high humidity inside the closed bag could make it like Lasersaber's environment.
I am still struggling to get more than 20 mA from the 1" copper pipe.
Maybe it is necessary to have carbon, as lasersaber says
I hope the copper can do this because it is so much more affordable...$3.50 instead of $45.00.
The very tiny one like "pete'sAA" (C-Mg) shows me by the flicker when it is getting dry.
I spray it and the flickering stops for 5 or 10 more hours.
It has been on steadily since I made it a couple of days ago.
The 5 1/2 " carbon rod that I made last week and covered with masking tape only works for 2 hours on a wetting.
I am ready to soak it for a while to see if I can revive it at all.
I think some epsom salt might be the thing to get this going.??
I will let you know.
The trick for me seems to be to get enough air and moisture to let it run, but to not destroy it.
jeanna
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Good work Jeanna, I also agree the trick is to find a way to get the right mixture of air and moisture so it'll keep running and not destroy the mag so fast. We have been making progress though all the new air batteries I've built seem to be outlasting the previous designs the mag ribbon still looks like new.
@Jeanna,
The plate cell I made uses only copper and mag, no carbon. It gets a very good amount of power for being so small. It was able to light a white led at full brightness more than 24 hours later off one ML of water.
I Just added a capful of water to it this morning to see what's the most mA I can get out of it. The amperage rose steadily for about a minute and finally peaked at about 99mA, but if I hold the center tight it rises to 120mA. So I put a clothes pin on the center and it held steady at about 109mA. I will be redesigning this cell as soon as some parts I ordered arrive, I was thinking of making a youtube account to show the disassembly of this one and the assembly of the new ones if anyone is interested to know.
-Pete
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Pete,
Do you have 2 connectors to the copper each coming from a different magnesium source?
Please explain how you are wiring that.
I am getting 100 uA now from the carbon rod and mag ribbon covered with tape. ???
(the tiny one which is not covered is still on.)
@conrad,
I made a carbon/Alu battery from an aluminum soda can filled with carbon wrapped in paper towel.
the carbon is the granules of a spent carbon filter with a carbon rod in the middle for the electrode.
The volts are OK but the amps don't even show up on the meter. This means it is less than 1uA.
It is very disappointing, but there it is.
I guess I could add some sodium carbonate as I did with the foil experiment.
I will let you know if that works, but for now, this seems in need of a lot of improvement.
jeanna
edit... I added some sodium carbonate and the uA went up to 500uA. This is an improvement, but not enough.
-
@Jeanna,
Yes, there's two Mag outputs the plate is one an the mag ribbon is the other. The copper wire is wound between the two about 15-20 turns wide spaced. The ribbon is about 11 turns. I have Illustrated this picture hope it helps. Let me know if you have anymore questions.
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Very interesting.
Yes, that does help.
I assume there is a difference in either volts or amps if you only use the mg ribbon?
How much is it for both with
just the mg ribbon to the copper and
just the block to the copper?
Thank you,
jeanna
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I assume there is a difference in either volts or amps if you only use the mg A?
How much is it for both with
just the mg ribbon to the copper and
just the block to the copper?
The mag ribbon and copper alone give 1.3v@62mA
The plate and copper are 1.3v@65mA
All together it's holding steady 1.3v@103mA
-Pete
-
Thanks Pete,
I am surprised about the block.
Mine only puts out about 2 or 3mA
I think you must have magnesium ingot.
I saw that for sale and I now wish I had bought the ingot. It will probably outlast any ribbon just because of its shape and mass.
thanks for the test results,
jeanna
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@all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_battery
Energy/weight
watt hour /Kg Practical 1300 per Kg (theoretical 6000-8000)
we couldn't we build a composite battery 2 cell in one . High amp copper/scrap aluminum , then low amp just to raise the voltage up a bit copper /carbon that way we don't need big carbon rod , only the small recycled ones from carbon zinc battery .
So the cell look like this big chunk of copper the right size so the can will cover both sides of the copper plate , and aluminum/copper/carbon (/ = electrolyte ). Lets not be wasteful try to use as much of the can as possible.
Mark
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Jeanna:
My infamous carbon rod (1" dia. X 18" long) was purchased from a company called Airgas and it cost me less than $20.00.
Still a lot of money I know but it is still going strong after these 2+ years outside in the ground. If you need contact info, let me know and I will try to dig it up from back then.
Bill
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@Pirate
Bill thanks for the Harbor Freight low cost on the fire starters.... they had them on sale for $1.99 each.
I found these graphite bars 3/4 in. by 3/4 in. by 8 in. 5 for $10.00 on Ebay... they have 10 lots left at this time.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140400637264
I am looking at making a multi-cell type battery as an experiment when I return from vacation..
It will be several weeks until I get back....
I look forward to seeing everyones progress in the mean time.
Bill
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I have seen some good success with the air battery today.
Yesterday, I soaked every one of my air batteries in epsom salts, and they were still rather wet last evening, when I was not sure I had anything remarkable.
Well, today as the batteries got less soaked, they seemed very strong, so I took the 1 red led from the secondary and replaced it with 3 white in parallel, and the light is great.
I think the one with tape covering all the magnesium seems brighter even though it has a thinner pipe and much less magnesium.
I suspect the bigger one is drier because there is not tape covering all of it.?? maybe??
So, some good encouraging results.
Here are 2 pics:
1/2 inch and brighter
1 inch and bright.
jeanna
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@Pirate
Bill thanks for the on the fire starters.... they had them on sale for $1.99 each.
Hopefully they really are made from magnesium.
I bought a fire starter for 3€ and even though it said magnesium on the package it was actually made from aluminum.
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[ author=maw2432 link=topic=9276.msg246138#msg246138 date=1277132327]
@Pirate
Bill thanks for the on the fire starters.... they had them on sale for $1.99 each.
[/]
Hopefully they really are made from magnesium.
I bought a fire starter for 3€ and even though it said magnesium on the package it was actually made from aluminum.
The ones I purchased there were magnesium and work well.
Bill
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Did anyone try magnesium chloride? It's very hygroscopic so it might increase the moisture content of "dry" paper.
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Day Ten!
Great work everybody! I am really surprised at the success some of you are having with copper. I never could get the copper core batteries to work very well long term.
Here is a video of my current long term air batter test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCdj9TJCZd4
Here are some pictures showing better details:
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Nice construction layout on the motor, maybe add some build details (number of turns/wire size) etc for others that want to build one.
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Thanks Lasersaber.
Your video is great, and these close ups are really excellent.
I made the suggestion on the video that when it finally stops you could scrape the crud from between rows of ribbon to see if it helps.
I think the bubble shape of the crud is because you are making H2 inside the mg. That H2 is lifting the wet mg up until it collapses as crud. My guess.
@all,
I also want to say the big one I made has only a thin spiral of tape holding it down and therefore it can get dry, which it has done.
The 1/2 inch one is still going strong moisture-wise. I completely covered that one with tape and I thought it didn't work, but I needed to thoroughly soak it to get it really going. It is still wet enough to work after 3 days from the soaking.
I also have had a carbon mg one that is only 2 1/2 inches that is continuously running a jtc, so ...
These really work.
Thank you for sharing this 'invention'.
jeanna
hmmm I guess I am glad I had to get a few of those reed switches to satisfy the mim order!
Next job is to invent a new reed switch? ???
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I have been playing for a week with this stuff and what I see there is a oxidation going on by the water with some kitchen salt on the magnesium ribbon (see pictures down under)
When I wanted to peel off the ribbon it broke between my fingers. I used a lot of water so I think the less water the longer the coil will last. I've got 0.53 volt 22 mA on one of these sticks. I used one thin layer of elastic bandage. I pulled the graphite rods out of an old battery.
I saw a guy doing that in this video http://www.youtube.com/user/NurdRage#p/search/2/knc1lSupAwQ (http://www.youtube.com/user/NurdRage#p/search/2/knc1lSupAwQ)
I heated the rod with a little flame several times to get out the tar that is in the rod. Just heating and cleaning the tar with a tissue. A cheap way to get these rods, the structure is soft. Thanks Lasersaber, you got me going with this stuff ;D
Kind regards,
Leon.
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Hi everybody.
It seems a good day to make another air battery follow up video, so I did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9FVnfPoXaY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9FVnfPoXaY)
I changed the jt circuit to one with 3 white leds on the secondary and I can still light up the one that was taped without any extra water.
I added water in the video anyway and it did get brighter.
The 1 inch which has very little tape over it got very dry in spite of the humidity and the epsom salts added to the cloth, so I had to spray it, but then it got very bright.
I like the flexibility of this battery.
In fact the one that is more open and can dry out can be allowed to stop which I assume will add to its over all life. The in-use life will be the same, of course.
I am not doing the constant run test that lasersaber is doing.
I am just letting it go on then off and again to see how it does.
The one I made on the carbon welding rod broke apart a long time before the mg ribbon dissolved, so I believe this is an important piece to follow too.
jeanna
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I did some tests with a salt water cell (aluminum – salt water – copper). See the attached photos. The cell gives initially 2 mA but drops after an hour to 0.04 mA (40 micro amperes). The voltage is about 0.43 Volt. So, such a cell is not very good, something is missing.
The aluminum - salt water – copper cell:
- Glass test tube, diameter 30 mm, height 200 mm, contains about 100 mL saltwater
- Salt water: 500 mL tap water with 35 grams of table salt (double seawater salt content, more salt does not help)
- Aluminum sheet from soft drink can, about 120 cm2 (about 18 square inches)
- About 5 meter blank copper wire wound on 10mm plastic tube
- About 0.43 Volt, 40 micro amperes (0.04 mA), initially up to 2 mA
Remarks:
- 4 of the above salt water cells in series (about 1.72 Volt, but sink to about 1 Volt under the JT load) drive two red LEDs in series with special JT circuit (50 mm air core, 20 turns bifilar winding, swings at about 1.2 – 1.5 MHz)
- when the cell is filled with “fresh†salt water it will develop up to 2 mA at 0.43 Volt for up to an hour, then the output drops slowly over hours to 0.04 mA (this can be reproduce by refilling with “fresh†salt water)
- since refilling with “fresh†salt water increases the output, it seems that something is used up, which I think is oxygen; therefore the “wet paper wraps†are better, because oxygen from the air can enter
Update on the aluminum - tile cement – copper cell:
Air can enter the porous tile cement, and this may be the reason why my “aluminum – tile cement - copper cell†is giving 0.3 mA at about 0.8 Volts already for four weeks. Every few days the tile cement needs a little humidity either from damp air or from placing it in water for a few seconds, which will give the necessary electrolyte. The tile cement seems to be a good “wet paper or cloth†(it looks dry, but some humidity must be present to function).
Conclusion so far (including what I see from the many good posts in this thread):
The concept of “air battery†really needs “air†and some moisture as electrolyte. The air (oxygen) keeps it going, while a little moisture keeps the electrons flowing.
Greetings, Conrad
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hay everyone new on here like your air batt looks good got to do that one
conradelektro
just used aluminum can and copper wire and salt water and getting 1.5 volts dontno about ma it been going for 5 days now and that just two cans i am going for a week and then i and going to and do 12 cans and see what i get will let you all i think i can get 12 volts out of it no later
old man
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hay everyone new on here like your air batt looks good got to do that one
conradelektro
just used A can and copper wire and salt water and getting 1.5 volts dontno about ma it been going for 5 days now and that just two cans i am going for a week and then i and going to and do 12 cans and see what i get will let you all i think i can get 12 volts out of it no later
old man
WOW....... LOL........
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I did some tests with a salt water cell (aluminum – salt water – copper). See the attached photos. The cell gives initially 2 mA but drops after an hour to 0.04 mA (40 micro amperes). The voltage is about 0.43 Volt. So, such a cell is not very good, something is missing.
Strange. Even a small copper coin and a small piece of aluminum foil give 2ma, so your initial current should be a lot higher then that.
Is your aluminum coated with plastic?
BTW. You can increase the voltage to 1.4V by adding a tiny amount of NaOH (drain cleaner). But it will dissolve the aluminum. The more you put in, the higher the load can be before the voltage drops but the aluminum will dissolve more quickly.
Don't put a large amount of NaOH in. It will bubble like crazy and can get quite hot.
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...
Is your aluminum coated with plastic?
BTW. You can increase the voltage to 1.4V by adding a tiny amount of NaOH (drain cleaner). But it will dissolve the aluminum. The more you put in, the higher the load can be before the voltage drops but the aluminum will dissolve more quickly.
Don't put a large amount of NaOH in. It will bubble like crazy and can get quite hot.
And it will be producing H2 gas when it dissolves the Al. So, be careful with any flames if you get a lot of bubbles.
@conrad,
I like the cement idea. I found it worked for a while myself, and perhaps you have found the trick to keep it active.
the alkaline neture of the cement is what makes the H2 gas form and it does this with magnesium too. I am wondering if this "air battery" that Lasersaber has described might not work for a longer time if cement is placed between the mag ribbon and the copper pipe or carbon rod.
I may mix up some cement soon and try this.
Once the cement is mostly dry and not so actively alkaline, it might be a great interface material, but before it dries it will not, IMO.
I have been playing for a week with this stuff and what I see there is a oxidation going on by the water with some kitchen salt on the magnesium ribbon (see pictures down under)
BTW
Welcome and thanks for the pix
ugly!
You have inspired todays tests. :D
I am testing a couple of electrolytes today.
I used epsom salt the other day and I am not seeing the kind of degradation that others who have used table salt have.
So, I will see what happens and let you all know.
jeanna
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I have some preliminary pix of the difference between NaCl and MgSO4 as electrolyte.
Just so you know what I did, I measured off equal amounts of mag ribbon and copper wire, made a spiral of each which I hung over the edge of the glass. I had to wrap the copper with something to prevent contact, so I used some gauze.
The solutions are approximate and they should both be saturated solutions which means there is a little undissolved salt in the bottom of the glass.
The refined sea salt = NaCl gave a voltage/amps reading of
1.49v
27mA
The epsom salts = MgSO4 gave a reading of
1.58v
20mA
They started at very close to the same time, but as you can see, there are way more bubbles on the Mg ribbon in the NaCl than in the MgSO4
They are big, but they pop the way H2 pops but there is no orange color at the point of the flame.??
Have a look.
First is the NaCl second is the MgSO4
jeanna
I just realized that it was dumb and risky to pop the bubbles with a flame so very close to the magnesium ribbon.
Please don't do this yourselves anybody...you may not be as lucky as I!!
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Nice work everyone, I've been busy for a few days, it's nice to see everyone contributing and forging ahead.
@Conrad,
I really like the design of those aluminum and copper cells, really great job. I agree that something seems to be leaving the cell that diminishes the power, not sure if its the oxygen that's being depleted, it might also be the hydrogen also as it appears in Jeanna's test of different electrolytes. Keep up the good work Conrad we'll figure it out.
@Jeanna,
Nice job on the electrolyte tests. This is very useful information to know. Just one question, what's the time frame on those pictures?
@All,
I have also made a recent update on my air batteries to show they're all still alive and still performing well. Also it's my first video upload, so it's a test on that as well. It's broken into two parts, my camera was giving me some difficulties so it cut off towards the end of the first video.
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hc-xyTFFGk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hc-xyTFFGk)
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLry46yKcmI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLry46yKcmI)
Hopefully I'll finish the new ones I'm working on this weekend, I'll be sure to keep you guys(and gal :)) posted. Once again keep up the good work to everyone and thanks for sharing the info.
-Pete
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@DrZoidberg
Strange. Even a small copper coin and a small piece of aluminum foil give 2ma, so your initial current should be a lot higher then that.
Is your aluminum coated with plastic?
When I fill the tube with "fresh" saltwater (the concentration of salt does not matter, equal or more than seawater concentration which is 3.5%) I get a very high current (up to 20 mA) for a short time (some minutes), for up to one hours I get up to 2 mA and then it drops to 0.04 mA. (Aluminium - salt water - copper in the test tube, as in the photos I posted above).
The aluminum sheet from the soft drink cans has been scrapped on both sides with sand paper (with a hand held machine) till only raw aluminum is visible.
Greetings, Conrad
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@ Pete (PeteIdl4), Jeanna and all
Great videos, Pete! Carbon and magnesium seem to be the best; also in combination with copper, and carbon - magnesium seems to be top. The little carbon - magnesium cell is surprising.
Because adding water (as Pete shows in his video) helps and as Jeanna shows in here water containers, magnesium and copper also work great in a "wet cell".
I wounder what keeps aluminum in my test tube cells from reacting long term (not only for a short time after filling the tubes with fresh salt water)? It can not be the copper, because Jeanna uses copper in her wet experiment with magnesium ribbon.
May be aluminum is just not as active as magnesium. Magnesium is almost as fast as sodium (Natrium), therefore it deteriorates rather fast (pieces breaking off).
Bagdad Battery
I also did some tests with a Baghdad Battery (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery ) which simply means I used citric acid instead of salt in my test tubes.
With aluminium and copper (in the test tubes) citric acid gives about the same results as salt (impressive for a few minutes, pretty good for an hour, but then amperage drops like in salt water to less than 0.1 mA). Different concentrations of citric acid did not help.
I plan to make a real Baghdad Battery with iron and copper (and citric acid). May be iron reacts better than aluminum (although it will give a lower voltage).
When I think about it, steel or iron rusts (corrodes) much faster in seawater than aluminum, or am I mistaken?
Tile cement cell
I did not give up the tile cement and will build more and bigger tile cement cells after my excursion into wet cells comes to an end. The aluminum - tile cement - copper cell serves as a reference (which I could not yet beat with a wet cell).
I know that magnesium and carbon beats everything, but I want to exploit readily available materials (like aluminum, steel and copper) first. And only when that becomes hopeless I switch to the super stuff (which will not be available in an crisis situation). Salt and citric acid are rather easy to get (seawater and many fruits).
Seawater
I really like seawater (saltwater), if one can use that, it would become simple. Even with a bulky set up, it would be great as an emergency battery.
O.k., I make a steel - saltwater - copper thing right now, stay tuned. I will wrap one metal in a cloth as Jeanna did, then the build stays simple.
Greetings, Conrad
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I always found that the way to get higher milliamps was to use long lengths of wire or magnesium ribbon. It's of utmost importance that the wire or ribbon never touches its self. Check out my thread over here for more info: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8640.0 Because of what I learned doing these experiments, if I wanted to make a battery with a coke can I would probably cut it into a ribbon and wind it around a carbon rod or copper pipe as in my current designs. There may be other, better ways but so far this is what I have found to work best.
These new air batteries grew out of my findings doing earth batteries. I then decided to figure out a way to utilize the long wire effect in a small portable configuration. That is why I started building NS coils as his design seemed to integrate this. I just got tired of having to wet them down every few days.
My batteries are still going strong. They are much brighter then in my last video as the air humidity has gone up some. I may be very wrong, but I think that the salt crystals are helping to keep the current flowing when they dry out on low humidity days. The water I initially dipped them in was heated and oversaturated with salt. I did this to try and get them to grow crystals. So far it has been working well. I have not had any problem with the salt crystals shorting out the ribbon. We really need to do a lot more long term tests to know what really works best.
Everyone remember that my first air batteries had no salt added and they ran fine for weeks. I just had to use twelve of them to light one LED.
My goal is to keep these running without adding any water. That is probably the key to super long battery life. I am looking forward to winter when I will have low humidity. I think that if I can get one to run all winter under load with out adding water then I'll be all set for the next step. All you folks who have lower humidity please keep in mind that you have a great opportunity to test these. In my earlier tests I made air batteries that did not even show any milliamps but when I connected six of them together I had over six volts and I could light an LED. You may have to make more air batteries or larger air batteries but at some point you should be able to get them to run an LED or pulse motor off air humidity alone. At that point start your long term tests. I hope that you are a very patient person because if you have any success you may have to wait a very long time for your tests to run their coarse.
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After bathing in the sea/ocean, the clothe is very long to dry compare to wet with tap water.
Rain water is also harder to dry than tap water.
Thanks for sharing this info, I am trying this concept of self made batteries.
I was thinking of my friends in Cambodia, there many people don't have light at home.
I am thinking about the cheapest design possible, like using charcoal and aluminum foil.
Like putting a layer of alu foil in a tube form, then the cotton clothe, and then introducing the charcoal powder in the center, then compressing it.
Of course we need another design to use a long wire as electrode ...
What I am thinking about is a recyclable version.
For example using a copper pipe in the center and an aluminum wire on the outside. When corroded we could disassemble the all thing, and scratch the corrosion of the pipe and wire with sand paper.
Then it could run for another cycle ...
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I always found that the way to get higher milliamps was to use long lengths of wire or magnesium ribbon. It's of utmost importance that the wire or ribbon never touches its self. ...
I agree with you.
When I tried to "use" the 2 batteries in the salt solutions, I found that even though the meter showed that they had over 20mA each, they could only pulse a jt circuit with a red led on the secondary.
When I put the 2 in series they readily lit the jt circuit with white leds and did so with good brightness.
.. I just got tired of having to wet them down every few days.
The humidity was 49% yesterday and 55% today, so I can say that this is still too low to sustain enough moisture in the ones with exposed cloth or paper. The one with tape is still working fine since being wetted 2 days ago on the video.
... I may be very wrong, but I think that the salt crystals are helping to keep the current flowing when they dry out on low humidity days. The water I initially dipped them in was heated and oversaturated with salt. I did this to try and get them to grow crystals...... We really need to do a lot more long term tests to know what really works best.
this is a very interesting thought that the crystals could make it work better.
Yup, more time to know.
..... All you folks who have lower humidity please keep in mind that you have a great opportunity to test these. In my earlier tests I made air batteries that did not even show any milliamps but when I connected six of them together I had over six volts and I could light an LED. You may have to make more air batteries or larger air batteries but at some point you should be able to get them to run an LED or pulse motor off air humidity alone.
I am willing ( delighted) to try this.
Since I am having good results with the copper tubing, I will continue to use that, and I will make some to put in series. (somehow, I missed that they showed NO mA!)
I used mag sulphate as the salt because I thought it would help to have magnesium in the salt. I wonder if the mg crystal will help better than Na.
In the glass jar controls test, the mA is lower with the mgSO4and the bubbles are much slower even today.
Thanks for your good work.
I find it very inspiring.
@Jeanna,
Nice job on the electrolyte tests. This is very useful information to know. Just one question, what's the time frame on those pictures?
-Pete
those pix were within a couple of hours. I will check later this afternoon at around 24 hours.
I intend to let them run down to where they do not produce any more then weigh them and see what that shows if anything.
That will be next week or later, I am sure. :D
thank you,
jeanna
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I think it would be great to have an emergency power supply e.g. in case of a long lasting black out or when you are camping somewhere.
I know there are gasoline powered generators but I was looking for something I could use inside.
So an aluminum air battery seems like a great choice. It's small, silent and relatively clean.
But that means the battery needs to be powerful enough to run the most essential appliances (fridge, laptop). A few ma is not gonna cut it.
This battery looks nice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwT-ONznU5I
They are using some special air cathode to get decent performance.
I found a company that makes air cathodes
http://www.electric-fuel.com/airelectrode/index.html
but I have difficulties finding places to buy the stuff
I only found this so far http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/103337003/air_diffusion_electrode.html
But it says there the service life is only 1000 hrs. That seems a little short.
However it should make a pretty powerful battery. The description says it supports 200mA/cm^2 and it'S 800 cm^2 in size so that should give me 160A.
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I always found that the way to get higher milliamps was to use long lengths of wire or magnesium ribbon. It's of utmost importance that the wire or ribbon never touches its self. Check out my thread over here for more info: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8640.0 Because of what I learned doing these experiments, if I wanted to make a battery with a coke can I would probably cut it into a ribbon and wind it around a carbon rod or copper pipe as in my current designs. There may be other, better ways but so far this is what I have found to work best.
I agree a wound design always seems to outperform any other design I've tried in the past. I definitely think this is a step in the right direction.
..... All you folks who have lower humidity please keep in mind that you have a great opportunity to test these. In my earlier tests I made air batteries that did not even show any milliamps but when I connected six of them together I had over six volts and I could light an LED. You may have to make more air batteries or larger air batteries but at some point you should be able to get them to run an LED or pulse motor off air humidity alone.
I will also try this. I've noticed that on my longer poles once they've dried for a few days they still give off a reading of about 1.4 volts at about 80-120 microamperes as I mentioned in my video. I just checked the aluminum and carbon one, which i haven't touched since i put it together(about a week ago). I was quite surprised, the readings show a little over half a volt at 22uA as you can see by the pictures. More long term tests need to be done, but this does seem to confirm Lasersaber's findings.
@Jeanna,
Thanks for the info on those pictures and tests. I'm really interested to find out your results. Please keep us posted. Thanks again and keep up the good work.
-Pete
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I like the concept of making our own batteries, thanks guys for sharing all the info !
I was happy to find that Carbon Fiber Tube for model helicopters works well with magnesium ribbon.
Of course I don't have load, but the voltage is good compare to other carbon products I tried.
Bought 20 Euros from ebay (2 rods length 800mm), arrived from Honk Kong in a few days.
Advantage is that it's very strong and hard. It doesn't break.
Carbon Fiber. 2 X 800mm Dia. 12mm Carbon Fiber Tubes from http://myworld.ebay.fr/bigdotunclercstore/ (http://myworld.ebay.fr/bigdotunclercstore/)
I know it's no more an air battery, but a salt battery, but power is higher when soaked !
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Carbon fiber works for this?
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A last post this evening.
I had the idea to use carbon powder glued on a tape. The powder comes from scratching the Carbon Fiber Tube.
Then a layer of soaked towel paper.
Then an aluminum foil.
This could be rolled to form dense batteries ...
Batteries could be very cheap and made by unskilled persons. Using carbon powder uses very little material, as using foil and tape ;)
Of course large magnesium ribbon/foil would be better. I don't know where to find some ?!
This picture is just to give an idea of the concept. Next week I will buy some more stuff to build one. Sunday all shops closed here.
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A last post this evening.
I had the idea to use carbon powder glued on a tape. The powder comes from scratching the Carbon Fiber Tube.
That's a great idea. Did you also try manganese dioxide instead of graphite? I wonder what kind of voltage and current that would produce.
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Laser thanks for the videos :)
Am i right in thinking it's a replication of these chaps :
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/5353809/Worlds-first-battery-fuelled-by-air.html
And your Magnesium is replacing their Lithium ?
Apparently they have had problems with falling capacity as the battery is cycled.
More details here :
http://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/897
Gary.
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What is most surprising for me that study batteries for the first time now, is that they are already using carbon in the batteries, but just to conduct electricity outside the battery.
But carbon is never alone as cathode !
Why they don't use like Lasersaber, magnesium as anode and carbon as cathode ?
Just 2 elements !
Is it a kind of suppression to avoid people making their own batteries ?
As a ON/OFF switch for the battery we could use a liquid electrolyte (salt water) in a double chamber container.
To switch ON the battery, starting the reaction, we would bring the water in the electrodes area.
To switch OFF we just turn the container up side down, separating the electrodes from the electrolyte, stopping the reaction.
The electrodes could be 2 long films separated by a plastic net for spacing.
The films could be made of plastic sprayed with paint and covered with magnesium and carbon powder, then rolled together with the plastic spacer in between.
I am busy now, but shall give it a try in a few days, please join the ride and try to develop this concept of home made batteries.
But please not much theory, but more pictures and results ;)
Some info on batteries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leclanch%C3%A9_cell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leclanch%C3%A9_cell)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc-carbon_battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc-carbon_battery)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaline_battery)
See also a Magnesium-Air-Sea water battery pack here:
http://www.alibaba.com/product/kr100256208-103275076-100655237/seawater_power_pack.html (http://www.alibaba.com/product/kr100256208-103275076-100655237/seawater_power_pack.html)
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I have difficulties to find references on internet about carbon + magnesium battery.
I don't know why, because it's the higher voltage I can get from basic material.
I compared iron, copper, aluminum, magnesium, each with each
The magnesium + carbon/graphite gives FAR MUCH HIGHER voltage than any other combination !!
Magnesium is largely used and available as is carbon. Why not much data on this on the web !?
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I resumed some experiments in a picture.
Now I will look for the most efficient Joule Thief design.
And try to find out how to save material on the carbon rods, thinking of a way to have them hollow to save material weight.
I think I will work on the Variable coil Joule Thief to run a SEC Tower like Amazing Lidmotor did here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uN-yNgtt4c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uN-yNgtt4c)
What would we do without those amazing sharing tinkers ::) ::)
Of course the best might be to light a 10 W fluo tube for cheap ...
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@stephenafreter
Thanks for sharing your findings. I discovered the same things through much trial and error. My design came about directly through doing tests like these.
Today is the two week anniversary of my long term air battery test. The flashlight light is much brighter this morning than it was in my last video. I still have not added any water to the flash light test. The motor is also spinning really fast. It's been fun observing the motor speed in comparison to air humidity.
I am testing a new idea now that seems to help these run on even less air humidity. I will keep you posted.
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Oh, i thought you'd got the idea from these guys :
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/5353809/Worlds-first-battery-fuelled-by-air.html
More details here :
http://research-repository.st-andrews.ac.uk/handle/10023/897
Gary.
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I have difficulties to find references on internet about carbon + magnesium battery.
I don't know why, because it's the higher voltage I can get from basic material.
I compared iron, copper, aluminum, magnesium, each with each
The magnesium + carbon/graphite gives FAR MUCH HIGHER voltage than any other combination !!
Magnesium is largely used and available as is carbon. Why not much data on this on the web !?
Here is a chart of the potential of metals in water:
http://www.thelenchannel.com/1galv.php (http://www.thelenchannel.com/1galv.php)
We found that magnesium and carbon were the easiest to get that had the largest potential difference. We learned this on the earth battery topic a few years back. There are some other metals that can be explored but, I think this combination is the best all around for the average person.
I think Lasersaber's work here has opened up many more possibilities for practical designs and uses. I am looking forward to seeing what he has come up with now. This is a very interesting field of study to be sure.
Bill
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Thanks Pirate for this chart ! Very useful indeed !
Graphite is at one end, and on the other extreme side, to get the largest potential difference, we have :
- lithium, but it's expensive
- potassium but we can't use it pure with water : Quote from Wikipedia : "Elemental potassium is a soft silvery-white metallic alkali metal that oxidizes rapidly in air and is very reactive with water, generating sufficient heat to ignite the evolved hydrogen." End quote
- then sodium, also very dangerous pure : Quote from Wikipedia :"Elemental sodium does not occur naturally on Earth, because it quickly oxidizes in air and is violently reactive with water, so it must be stored in an inert medium, such as a liquid hydrocarbon."
- and then our magnesium, very abundant, very cheap and easy to manipulate like in this alloy ribbon. Of course pure it would be also very reactive.
Amazing how the other elements have much lower potentials !!
Even carbon has almost 3 times less potential than graphite, that explains why the carbon fiber works but with lower results than the carbon/graphite pencil ...
Very useful link again Pirate, thanks for sharing ;)
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I did some tests with mild steel and copper in saltwater (see the two attached photos):
The steel - salt water – copper cell:
- Glass jar, diameter 100 mm, height 130 mm, contains about 1.1 Liter saltwater
- Salt water: 1.1 Liter tap water with 50 grams of table salt (about seawater salt content, more salt does not help)
- Steel sheet from old stove pipe, scrapped blank, about 120 cm2 (about 18 square inches), bent into a tube with 55 mm diameter and 70 mm height
- Cotton cloth wound in three layers around the steel tube
- About 4 meters copper wire wound on the cotton covered steel tube
- Masking tape wound over the copper wire to hold it tightly to the cotton covered steel tube
- About 0.41 Volt initially
Results:
- very similar to my tests with aluminium and copper in saltwater, the steel - copper cell worked very well for some minutes (up to 10 mA), then it gave about 1 mA for several hours, but finally Voltage dropped rapidly and also Amperage diminished
- removing the cell from the salt water and letting it dry out revived the cell for several houres (about 0.5 ma at up to 0.4 Volt, later about 0.3 Volt), but also this stopped because the steel was completely covered in rust
Further plans:
- it seems that "aluminium - copper" and "mild steel - copper" initially after putting it in salt water (or water with citric acid) works very well, but stops functioning after a few hours (this can be repeated by putting in "fresh" salt water, but I do not know what element was used up, I suspect it is oxygen)
- a design like Lasersaber's air battery (a ribbon wound over a wet paper towel covered core) seems to work longer and more reliably (as I see from various posts)
- the question is, "how wet should the paper be?"; Lasersaber wants a very dry paper for his magnesium - carbon cell
- therefore I will build some cells with a ribbon or wire wound over a wet paper covered core, because proximity of the two metals also helps
- I bought a stainless steel sheet, copper pipe, aluminium pipe and aluminium sheet and will carry out tests also with copper wire and aluminium wire and will post the results
Update on the aluminum - tile cement - copper cell
- my "aluminium - tile cement - copper cell" (driving a JT with one red LED now for a month) likes some moisture (best from humid air); "completely dry" stops it, also "very wet stops" it
- after dipping the cell in water it takes up to two hours (till the moisture is not visible any more) to function as usual (1 - 1.1 Volt without load, about 0.3 mA continuously)
- depending on air humidity the cell has to be dipped in water (for a few seconds) after a few days; the longest run was 7 days without a water dip (in very rainy weather), the shortest run was 3 days (windy dry weather)
Greetings, Conrad
Remark: it is important to put some load on a cell when testing; Voltage can look very good for a long time, but Amperage usually drops fast or is very small from the beginning
-
Further plans:
- it seems that "aluminium - copper" and "mild steel - copper" initially after putting it in salt water (or water with citric acid) works very well, but stops functioning after a few hours (this can be repeated by putting in "fresh" salt water, but I do not know what element was used up, I suspect it is oxygen)
- a design like Lasersaber's air battery (a ribbon wound over a wet paper towel covered core) seems to work longer and more reliably (as I see from various posts)
- the question is, "how wet should the paper be?"; Lasersaber wants a very dry paper for his magnesium - carbon cell
- therefore I will build some cells with a ribbon or wire wound over a wet paper covered core, because proximity of the two metals also helps
Nice work Conrad,
To your first point, I'm inclined to agree that a fresh supply of oxygen is a key component to these type of batteries. I made a few aluminum and copper wire cells that have been running a JT and a white LED for 4 consecutive days. No added water than what I initially started them with. Each cell has been giving an average of 7-8mA at a little over half a volt. I recently made another as a video tutorial(I will post the links at the bottom of the post) so I am now going to start a long term test on all three.
As for lasersaber's air battery I believe he wants as little moisture as possible to prolong the life of the magnesium and his latest design seems to be holding up very well, but as for these cells that use aluminum I think we should be okay with a little more moisture than what the magnesium air batteries can handle. I also totally agree that proximity is a big factor. Lastly great job on your cement tile cell I like the continued progress, keep up the good work and thanks for sharing your results.
Tutorial video on my aluminum and copper cell:
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9YqFY-Z0dk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9YqFY-Z0dk)
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeQof7ue9xA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeQof7ue9xA)
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@ Pete(Idl4) - nice videos and your design is a very good idea -the aluminum from the cans and the copper wire are used very cleverly
I will try to copy your "aluminum sheet - salt water paper - copper wire" cell as closely as possible. Long time tests are crucial.
Remarks:
- the output of about 8 mA is very impressive; this probably comes from the clever use of four aluminum surfaces in your design
- "copper wire turns should not touch": air should be able to pass through the windings and galvanic action should happen all around the copper wire (more surface), but electrically I do not see a significance (further tests should clear that up)
- "moist but not wet paper": the paper should have some moisture but air should be able to flow through (which seems to be the problem with my wet cells)
- "air flow": all comes back to air being able to enter the cell and touch one of the metals, I think it is aluminum which needs the air (oxygen); as long as the cells is porous to air any lack of oxygen will be equalized by the surrounding air
- one has to think about a design that allows easy adding of moisture every now and then, a trade off between "air flow" and "not drying out to fast"
- Lasersaber had the idea, that salt crystals will absorb just enough moisture from the surrounding air, therefore he soaked the paper (or cloth) in saturated saltwater and waited till it was almost dry (as far as I understood) and I will try the same
- "masking tape": if the salt crystal idea is correct, one should use cotton string to hold the cell together because it will allow better air flow; air should be allowed to enter from both ends of the cell and also from one side (do not overlap the outer aluminum sheet on one side)
So far my conclusions from the great ideas I see in this thread, greetings, Conrad
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Hello Everyone,
By the Grace of God the Father and the gifts He's given through His Son Jesus Christ, I'd like to share some of the data from experiments done with versions of this type of battery.
I've had one of these type of batteries running a super bright LED of 28,500 mcd and 3.5-4.0 volts for 6 weeks continuous. The decay rate of the ribbon seems to be on the order of about 1000 hours. Then you can use the remains for hydrogen generation. Each one of these mini batteries that powered the LED produced from 3-3.5 volts. Run in series they produced about 5.5-6 volts.
I did not need a JT or any other type of electrolyte other than tap water. The higher voltage is acheived very simply and further experimentation should get 6-7 volts out of only one tiny unit (1 inch by 1/8 inch).
Hope this data is helpful. I'll be posting on Youtube probably (God Willing) tonight.
Blessings,
LittleChristgod
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Hi everybody,
I just got back from 3 nights in the camper. :D
the first thing I noticed was that the mag ribbon that I left in the salt water is broken into 2 pieces, and the same length of ribbon in the MgSO4 solution is fine.
There were few bubbles on either ribbon when I first touched them, but now after the 'agitation' is stopped, they are both producing many bubbles again.
-----
Just before I left, I bought a 3 foot piece of 1" copper pipe from the hardware store.
It was a bit longer than 3 ft and I ended up with 5, 7" long pieces and 1, 3" piece.
I made 2 batteries; one, with the 3" and one with the 7 inch long piece. (and 4 left unwrapped.)
I took a pic of all the ones I have so far with the 4 bare copper tubes of potential batteries.
The 3 inch battery is lighting the JTC with 2 leds in parallel on the secondary. It can light more in parallel, I just took this pic.
In the pic you can see the 3 inch one right in front of the very tall one from last week.
This I did because I have in mind to cut that very long one a little shorter to make 7 inches and a 3 inch piece for another short one.
---
While these lights are bright they are not bright enough to light up one of those globe lamps. (Like the tiny toroid world light.)
I want to make them as bright as that, because that is a long lasting useful lamp.
One more thing to mention is that in about 50% humidity, these are drying out in about 3 hours.
It will be very interesting to see if they outlast the ones covered with tape.
Oxidation vs being "on" for longer.
If the Air battery thing is really true (the korean sea water battery uses only mag and air in sea water) then while the electrode ends seem off then energy is leaking out somewhere.)
The pic shows from L-R
The nearly useless carbon rod wound with Mg ribbon in the green glass. (I think this is the wrong kind of carbon rod, or something happened to break the magnesium ribbon apart under the tape.)
The 1/2" pipe which is wound with tape over the magnesium,
The really long one,
the 3 inch which is lighting the 2 leds,
Then the 7 inch and
4 more unfinished copper tubes.
I like the copper because it is about $4.40 for a foot long piece of 1" pipe, and the 7" length is $2.60. I think this is very affordable.
Now to make it a strong producer! ;)
Here is the pic.
I think the most interesting thing today is that the mag ribbon in the table salt was broken after 3 days and in mag sulphate was fine.
I hope this is not too confusing!
jeanna
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Here is what I should really be showing you.
In the one I am showing the broken pieces of magnesium after 5 days in NaCl.
The copper wire in the same bath looks great.
The second pic is the mag wire after 5 days in the MgSO4 solution and its copper electrode also looking good. (and the others, the NaCl electrodes are in the background.)
jeanna
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Hi all
I just discovered this link about high voltage (electrostatic) air batteries made 100 years ago!
http://amasci.com/emotor/duluc.html
"Duluc/Zamboni Electrostatic Pile
The DuLuc Dry Pile
High-voltage source
©1996 William J. Beaty
The Duluc Dry-Pile (also called the Zamboni Pile) was an "electrostatic battery" permanent power supply used in the early 1800s and constructed from silver foil, zinc foil, and paper. Foil disks of 2cm dia. were stacked up several thousand thick and then either compressed in a glass tube with endcaps and a screw assembly, or stacked between three glass rods with wooden endplates. Of course this is simply a Voltaic Pile, a multi-cell electrochemical battery, albiet one with output potential in the range of kilovolts. Each cell used nearly-dry paper as electrolyte, with zinc foil for one electrode and silver foil as the other."
***************
This was used a source of power for "Perpetual Motion Machine" also described on above link. Maybe modern materials can improve on this idea for low voltage applications?
tishatang
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Hi, just a link from http://keelynet.com/ (http://keelynet.com/)
Carbon nanotubes in lithium batteries ... http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-06/miot-ucn061710.php (http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-06/miot-ucn061710.php)
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Thanks jeanna, I am impressed to see how little the MgSO4 solution attacked the magnesium ribbon compared to the Salt solution !!
That's a very important point !!
What is your recipe to prepare the MgSO4 solution ? Where you bought it, what quantity in water ? ... Edit: Ok I found that MgSo4 is just Epson Salt ;D
Even the copper seems not corroded at all !
I want to try to make graphite thin film ... powdering graphite then put that on glue tape, to save on the graphite volume used ...
I read somewhere that they use wax and/or clay mixed with the graphite to make the pencils. I'll try to see what results I can have to make a graphite thin film in my kitchen :D
I'll try also copper as you suggested ;)
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@ Stefanafreter:
You can get cheap powdered graphite designed to be used as a lock dry lubricant. It comes in a small toothpaste type tube and would be easy to use for your tape idea.
Any auto parts place should have some, along with some hardware stores, etc.
Bill
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Nice one Jeanna.
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Hi guys impressive batteries. Anyone knows where to find magnesium from trash?
Cookware maybe?
Thanks
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Yep, thanks Pirate, I found Graphite and Lithium grease for less than 10 USD a pot in the "Home Depot" ... going to try them as electrodes as soon as they are dried up a bit.
I also put some graphite grease on a piece of pvc pipe, and added some graphite powder to thicken and densify the layer (can buy from artist drawing shop, 10 USD for 150g pot).
I'll keep you informed asap.
Edit: Grease is a strong insulator, be sure to add a lot of graphite powder to the grease until it becomes electrically conductive !!
I put a layer of plastic net underneath that I fill with the mix, to get an even layer on all the surface.
I also got some candle wax to try to mix it warm with graphite powder, because when cooled it could form a stronger and thicker layer, and it could be molded in any form ...
I think magnesium powder is very hard to find, because it is highly reactive to air and water ... but it's used in fireworks, mixed with aluminum powder to.
I'll first use magnesium ribbon with a file to make small quantities of powder for testing.
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...I'll first use magnesium ribbon with a file to make small quantities of powder for testing.
@Stephenafreter
Be very careful with magnesium powder, it will ignite even with just a small spark. I've had it light on me a few times. Other than that sounds interesting, I'd like to know how it turns out. Keep us posted and keep up the good work.
@Jeanna,
Great job on your tests with the electrolytes. I was very surprised to see that the magnesium sulphate hardly damaged the ribbon compared to the salt. This is very interesting. Thank you for the good work, I think you may be on to something.
-Pete
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Hi, I find that a graphite electrode is a very important advantage compared to others because according to the excellent potential chart linked by Pirate, http://www.thelenchannel.com/1galv.php (http://www.thelenchannel.com/1galv.php), it has the highest positive potential AND it is not corroded during the reaction !!
It's even higher potential than gold or platinum :o
The challenge it to make a hollow graphite electrode of large diameter (20-30 mm, 1") that is strong enough and can be re-used, by changing the external magnesium ribbon when it's exhausted.
I suppose that graphite pencil manufactures use pressure to put their graphite mix in form. I am looking for a way to do without the need of a press. Thanks if you can help to find the way.
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Quick update, good voltage reading with the graphite grease electrode, but not enough power for the joule thief. So far I got much less power that around the 8mm diameter graphite pencil ...
Tomorrow should try with wax + graphite.
Edit: Measured resistance between 2 points of the graphite pencil is only around 20 Ohm, while on the graphite grease it's around 15k Ohm, that explains why there is not much power out ... the electric resistance is too high.
I'd better look for a conductive binder element, like a water gel ... any suggestion ?
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The binder doesn't need to be conductive. You just have to add enough graphite.
You could use acrylic paint or epoxy. Just use as much graphite powder as possible and it should have a low resistance.
BTW. 10 USD for 150g of graphite powder seems a little high. I got 150g for 3 euro at my local hardware store.
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Hi all
I just discovered this link about (electrostatic) air batteries made 100 years ago!
http://amasci.com/emotor/duluc.html
Look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell
The thing has been continuously working for 170 years now and it will probably keep going for few hundred years.
No one really knows what's inside but I guess it's probably zinc foil, paper and manganese dioxide. The paper might have been soaked in zinc sulfate solution and then dried.
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@all
I have uploaded a study made on aluminum battery simple construction and clear detail .
to get access to the download
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=396
Enjoy !
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Mk1 interesting research regards. Today I made a small battery with copper wire around an aluminium in bleach and water gave about 0.3v and 5ma and a copper rod in an aluminium pipe that gave 0.6v at 2ma. Interesting when using copper wire gives more amperage.
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@Mk1
Thanks a lot for your document :o
That gives me a lot of useful data !
So adding a bit of NaOH with the salt is very useful for power output. That's good.
1- Did you add graphite powder to the pencils ? If yes, can you explain how ? What "glue" did you use ? 220mA at almost 2V is enormous compared to my 10mA at 0.6V without NaOH ;D
2- Can you give a shortcut in quantity to prepare the electrolyte, like giving measure in spoon/liter instead of Moles please ?
Congratulations, and thanks for sharing, an essential document !
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Replication of Pete's (PeteIdl4) aluminium - copper wire cell:
See Pete's tutorial videos (and my photos below):
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9YqFY-Z0dk (video by PeteIdl4)
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeQof7ue9xA (video by PeteIdl4)
- Kitchen paper towel sheets were soaked in saturated salt water and then dried in the sun. They were a bit stiff after that but that helped when rapping the paper over the inner aluminium sheet and over the copper wire windings.
- When winding the wire over the (paper covered) inner aluminum sheet I took care that the windings did not touch.
- The outer aluminium sheet and the inner aluminium sheet are held together by a little screw which also holds the cable to the aluminum.
- Air can enter the cells from three sides.
- Four cells are connected in series to get about 2 Volt (without load)
- After the cells were finished they showed about 0.5 Volt, but almost no current. So I added a little water with a pipette. Just enough to make the paper damp. After that I am getting great results (almost for three hours till now):
0.5 Volt without load
0.4 Volt with 1 mA load
0.2 Volt with 4 mA load
short circuit current is about 6 mA
I will report in the coming days how the four cells are holding out. They are driving a Joule Thief which draws about 1 mA (while the four cells in series hold 1.6 Volt steady).
@ Mk1 - Thank you for the aluminum cell PDF-document!
Greetings, Conrad
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Update on the replication of Pete's (PeteIdl4) aluminium - copper wire cell:
Four cells in series are driving a Joule Thief for the third day. With a load of about 1 mA the four cells in series are easily holding 1,6 Volt (0.4 Volt each cell).
With a 10 mA load the four cells are holding 0.6 Volt (0.15 Volt each).
I had to add water on the second day (with a pipette) and constructed a "press mechanism" to hold the aluminium sheets and the copper wire windings closer together (see attached photo). This increased the output (short circuit current now up to 18 mA).
Greetings, Conrad
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An other cell based on Pete's (PeteIdl4) aluminium - copper wire cell:
Because I like the aluminium - salt water paper - copper cell (the materials are easy to obtain) I built another one.
This time I used a copper sheet (instead of the copper wire) and an aluminium sheet (instead of soft drink cans) to see if that works better. The paper was soaked in 10% salt water (10 grams salt in 90 grams tap water). The metal sheets are 60 x 90 mm (rather small).
It seems that a "press mechanism" provides higher amperage, therefore I built four cells which are tightly pressed together.
This design also allows rapid assembly and disassembly (in case one wants to change the paper or check corrosion on the metal sheets).
Results with four cells in series:
no load 2.6 Volt (4 x 0.65 Volt)
3 mA load 1.6 Volt (4 x 0.4 Volt)
7 mA load 1.2 Volt (4 x 0.3 Volt)
10 mA load 1.0 Volt (4 x 0.25 Volt)
short circuit current is up to 25 mA
7 to 10 mA (at 1 to 1.2 Volt) are enough to drive a Joule Thief with a few white LEDs. For instance one could build a flash light (for use at home) with such a "battery". It should take a very long time till the copper and aluminium are corroded (may be years). Water has to be added occasionally. And may be the paper has to be changed every few months because it might fall apart.
Of course, one could build much better batteries with other materials (graphite, zinc, magnesium and some acids), but the goal is to build a very simple battery with materials commonly available (or from materials which are often thrown away like soda cans and old cables or wire from torn down buildings).
My next attempt will be a steel - damp salt paper - copper cell.
Greetings, Conrad
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Hello Everyone,
Vids have been uploaded regarding the 3 water battery experiments in case anyone is interested. The vids show a progression, ending at the third experiment with the tiny 1 inch by 1/8 inch units producing 3- 3.5 volts each without any Joule thief or acid, just tap water and enough current to run super bright LEDS.
Blessings,
Littlechristgod
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@ rock321
Could you tell us where the "vids about your water battery experiments" are to be found?
A link would be great.
Greetings, Conrad
-
Salt paper can absorb the ambient humidity, which could very likely shorten the battery's life.
Replication of Pete's (PeteIdl4) aluminium - copper wire cell:
See Pete's tutorial videos (and my photos below):
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9YqFY-Z0dk (video by PeteIdl4)
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeQof7ue9xA (video by PeteIdl4)
- Kitchen paper towel sheets were soaked in saturated salt water and then dried in the sun. They were a bit stiff after that but that helped when rapping the paper over the inner aluminium sheet and over the copper wire windings.
- When winding the wire over the (paper covered) inner aluminum sheet I took care that the windings did not touch.
- The outer aluminium sheet and the inner aluminium sheet are held together by a little screw which also holds the cable to the aluminum.
- Air can enter the cells from three sides.
- Four cells are connected in series to get about 2 Volt (without load)
- After the cells were finished they showed about 0.5 Volt, but almost no current. So I added a little water with a pipette. Just enough to make the paper damp. After that I am getting great results (almost for three hours till now):
0.5 Volt without load
0.4 Volt with 1 mA load
0.2 Volt with 4 mA load
short circuit current is about 6 mA
I will report in the coming days how the four cells are holding out. They are driving a Joule Thief which draws about 1 mA (while the four cells in series hold 1.6 Volt steady).
@ Mk1 - Thank you for the aluminum cell PDF-document!
Greetings, Conrad
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Here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/Littlechristgod#p/u/2/JU5R9511CGg
Blessings,
Littlechristgod
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@ rock321
Unfortunately you forgot to mention which metals you used for the cells presented in your videos?
The videos are therefore of no use, a waste of your own time and of the time of onlookers.
Either you disclose your cells completely or you keep them to yourself. Teasing people is bad form and not the purpose of this forum.
Greetings, Conrad
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I bet it's silver wire and aluminium wire.
(Edit: May be silver soldering wire, or just silver coated copper wire )
But I might be wrong ...
Very good idea. Rock I am impressed by the power output !!! from such a tiny piece !!!
I am going to try the silver/alu
I just got aluminium wire roll, used for welding purpose, it's very cheap.
Silver wire is also relatively cheap, silver is at around 600 Euro per kilo.
Silver as a potential equal to carbon ( +0.8V ) and does not corrode in the process.
(Only graphite has higher positive potential at 2.2V, in the chart)
Edit: so much apparent power for such small pieces of wire, even using silver wire would be affordable, because 1 inch of silver wire would cost like 10 cents.
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I bet it's silver wire and aluminium wire.
But I might be wrong ...
Very good idea. Rock I am impressed buy the power output !!! from such a tiny piece !!!
I am going to try the silver/alu
I just got aluminium wire roll, used for welding purpose, it's very cheap.
Silver wire is also relatively cheap, silver is at around 600 Euro per kilo.
Silver as a potential equal to carbon ( +0.8V ) and does not corrode in the process.
(Only graphite has higher positive potential at 2.2V, in the chart)
Graphite or carbon does not corrode either and is much cheaper to obtain. Check the metals chart I posted a bit back. The best bang for the buck is graphite/magnesium
Bill
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I have never seen such small pieces of wire giving 3.5 V and lighting a white LED directly ?!
Of course he has 2 cells in series, but it's still like 1.75V per cell !!!
And he says it's running since 1.5 month !!
I think he brought some metal from the moon or mars, because we don't have such here :)
http://www.youtube.com/Littlechristgod#p/u/0/PU-PxhFqAk8 (http://www.youtube.com/Littlechristgod#p/u/0/PU-PxhFqAk8)
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Magnesium ribbon + Silver wire ?
-
Ok, here is a trial with silver and magnesium in tap water.
Voltage with 1 red LED lit brightly is 1.59V
Of course my electrodes are much bigger than Rock's ones.
I don't have silver wire on hand yet.
THE MOST "AMAZING" is that when I replace the silver electrode with a graphite pencil or carbon tube or copper wire, the red LED doesn't have enough power to light up brightly, and the voltage readings are lower.
So it seems that potential of the material is important, but electrolytic reaction is different and could give more power output even with lesser potential difference ...
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A quick update to say that it works great with silver leaf.
Having no silver wire, I glued a silver leaf on a PVC pipe and it gives the same result as with the piece of silver.
Of course it's just short term results.
I am happy because I had difficulties to conceive a thin conductive graphite layer.
This silver is interesting. Using for example copper pipe plated with silver would be cheap and long lasting. Silver plating is also available everywhere, for jewelry, and it uses just a micro size layer of silver.
I hope to try soon to wrap some magnesium ribbon around my PVC-silver pipe to make a Lasersaber kind of battery.
1 leaf only used on the picture, enough for this 32mm diam. pipe.
Cost for 1 leaf is 0.10 Euro (10 for 1 Euro, from Thailand sold on ebay).
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Should also try silver plated copper wire.
1 layer of this wire, 1 layer of paper towel, 1 layer magnesium ribbon, 1 layer paper towel, and another layer of silver wire ... double power :)
180 meters for 5 Euros, and it shouldn't corrode, so it should last a long time ...
Might find this kind of wire in HiFi/electronic shop, like Litz wire.
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Good job stephenafreter! I didn't spell out exactly what I was using because I wanted you all to think a little bit. There are only a few silvery metals that are good conductors. If I really wanted to "tease" you (Conrad) then I would not have shown any clear images of the metals I was using or not posted at all and left everyone in darkness. Silver plating is all that is needed on the wires and this is very inexpensive.
Rather than just duplicating experiments, I want everyone to start thinking about WHY this works better. What is actually happening with the energy? What is the energy? How is it moving? What would make it even more efficient?
"[It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter."
Be kings (and queens for the ladies).
Blessings,
Littlechristgod (aka rock321)
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1 leaf of silver (25 micro thick) around 32mm PVC pipe
+ 3 feet magnesium ribbon
paper towel soaked in NaCl water (still waiting for my Epson salts)
Cost is very low, I am happy, Magnesium is the most expensive part, the fuel ...
Results are better when immerged in tap water, but magnesium might oxydise faster.
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I wrapped the outside with some masking tape to prevent evaporation.
After around 1 hour my white LED became BLINDING BRIGHT :)
So I added 2 more LED, and all three are bright, and voltage still good :)
I am VERY happy ! It's so cheap and easy to build !
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@ stephenafreter - very nice experiments with silver - and because silver seems to last (being more noble than the other metal used) one could store some silver foil or silver coated wire for many future batteries which is really not expensive, I found some sources easily (in Europe)
My experiments showed the following:
- copper and aluminium works only a short time (two to three hours) when submerged in salt water, it works well and many days in combination with damp paper
- copper and mild steel works only a short time (two to three hours) when submerged in salt water, it works well and many days in combination with damp paper
Stephen reports that silver and magnesium works better when submerged in water. Therefore I want to try (and want to ask all silver foil or silver coated wire owners to try it too):
silver - aluminum submerged in water
silver - copper submerged in water
silver - steel submerged in water
May be our cryptic rock321 has done that already?
To me a little container (e.g. glass jar) with salt water containing silver (which seems to last) and the other metal (aluminum, copper or steel which probably are consumed) looks more practical than damp paper which has to be replenished with water almost daily (according to my experiments). It would also not be so bad having to change the salt water on a monthly basis. It looks like tap water is enough, no additional salt needed.
I like the silver-ideas a lot (silver foil or silver coated wire), specially in case the silver is not lost.
The obvious strategy: one buys silver once (for as many batteries as one envisions) and recycles aluminum, copper and steel (probably found for free in thrown away products) in home made batteries (silver and an other less noble metal submerged in tap water in a little container)
Greetings, Conrad
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@all
I got some great results from using recycled hard drive disc , they are palladium plated aluminum , palladium is one of the noble element and give the same potential carbon has ...
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@Mk1 - Could you be a bit more specific about your recycled hard disk batteries (palladium coated aluminum)?
- What is the other metal you are using (may be you tried several metals)?
- Do you submerge the two metals in water (or in an other electrolyte) or do you use damp paper?
- Volts and amperage?
Remark: When submerging two different metals in tap water (or salt water) one has to do the experiment for some days (always driving a load like a LED) in order to see whether the effect becomes weak in the long run. Some metal pairs give very good results for some hours but then they stop producing electricity. One has to change the water after a few hours to get it going again (the oxygen in the water seems to be used up over time). In some cases (e.g. aluminum and steel in combination with copper) it helps to use damp paper (instead of submersion in water) because oxygen from the air can participate in the galvanic reaction.
Greetings, Conrad
-
@conrad
I don't have all the results yet , i am still waiting to find the proper materiel (the good size) , but i am talking about the platter .
Now the palladium will not tarnish , and is rated at 0v on the galvanic scale.
The remark about the metal working for some time then stopping , some times its the electrolyte that is not a good carrier , some time the metal deterioration shape and chemical content , trying all type of electrolyte mixes when you got to see that alkaline cancels acid electrolyte ...
There is solution to battery electrolyte , yes we may stumble on something great eventually , but i don't think it will be on the chemical side , but more on the easy fabrication , new shapes (coil Ns type) applications .
We are used to start from zero but with battery we start on 90 ...
I will post some pictures of my experiments ...
-
@all
Guys have a look a this fire from a potato.
One potato emptied in the middle filed with salt and toothpaste , 2 wire they seem the same material , so i don't thing galvanic here , 5 minute and voila enough current to start a fire , its probably a trick but if real really worth looking into .
http://wickedhowtos.com/index.php/2009/05/28/how-to-make-fire-with-a-potato-potato-battery-cotton-ball-fire/
-
I have been using and loving my air batteries.
I am letting them dry out and I squirt them before each use.
They will last a very long time.
But, I think I have found 2 interesting things to add to out reservoir of knowledge.
1- These seem to INCREASE in output when I put them to use.
I have noticed this since the beginning.
If I use a 1 ohm resistor to measure the mA available to my ckt, I will watch the number go up!
This is opposite to the usual.
2- I should probably put this next one on the joule thief thread, because it has to do with how the joule thief works, I think.
In the case of adding one of these air batteries which shows around 30mA available, I cannot get a jtc to turn on more than a minimum of leds.
I checked this out using my scope, on a few high power circuits I have and the highest I could get was 28v where it was over 450 with a AAA.
So, something is becoming more clear. hmm.
thank you,
jeanna
-
@jeanna
Yes it is strange that the Joule Thief output power is very low with those batteries ...
Is there a recharging effect with normal AA batteries, or is it a problem with the meters while spikes are going back to the batteries ??
I tried silver wire with magnesium ribbon and it's great.
Silver leaf version is faster to build, but silver coated wire makes it easy to put an outside layer around the magnesium ribbon, increasing power output.
I need to go for big size battery to get decent output power, enough to light a room ... I'll work on that :P
PS: My first silver leaf magnesium battery is still running after almost one week. Now I have the Epson salts and my batteries should last even longer, as you demonstrated in comparing with table salt.
Thanks for sharing !
-
I think I found a substance that can make those batteries powerfull even when dry.
"Solid gel electrodes".
These electrodes are used in medicine. They seem to be dry but they are very well conducting. I haven't found out yet what material they are made of. But that "solid gel" seems to contain a lot of moisture which it doesn't loose even when exposed to dry air for a long time. I think it's a great material for a dry air battery. The battery would perform nearly as well as a wet battery without having to add any water to it.
-
@ jeanna and stephenafreter - Joule Thiefe power consumption
I measured many times the power consumption of Joule Thief circuits with a digital storage oscilloscope (measurement over a 1 Ohm resistor, 1 mV corresponds to 1 mA, see the attached picture).
One can see that a JT consumes power in a saw teeth like fashion in sync with its frequency of oscillation.
If the power consumption of a JT is measured with a digital multimeter one gets the "average power consumption".
This "average power consumption" is a useful number but one has to take into consideration that the battery must be able to supply about the double amount of the "average power consumption", not continuously but intermittently.
If for example a JT consumes on average 30 mA, the battery must have the power to supply about 60 mA. And in case the battery delivers only 30 mA maximum the JT will have a poorer output because the pulses on the coil will be truncated (in comparison with a battery that can deliver 60 mA).
Greetings, Conrad
-
@all
Guys have a look a this fire from a potato.
One potato emptied in the middle filed with salt and toothpaste , 2 wire they seem the same material , so i don't thing galvanic here , 5 minute and voila enough current to start a fire , its probably a trick but if real really worth looking into .
http://wickedhowtos.com/index.php/2009/05/28/how-to-make-fire-with-a-potato-potato-battery-cotton-ball-fire/
@Mk1
It’s a guess, but most likely the potato battery is voltaic but not
a normal battery reaction, One where the reaction does not go ahead
unless current flows though a low ohm load external resistance.
It probably is a standard ionic Chemical reaction that is occurring
as a chemical reactant concentrations flows towards the center,
and that the wires act as voltage probes rather then chemical
reaction sites.
Most likely the toothpaste needs to contain sodium fluoride.
Fluorine is the most powerful and electronegative of all ions.
Most likely the salt acts as an astringent to draw fluids out
of the potato tissue. Raw potatoes contain Alkaloids Which
are chemically basic end make raw potatoes taste somewhat
bitter. It also might be the calcium metal in the potato.
It would be interesting to try other nightshade foods: tomatoes
and eggplant, too see if these might make good temporary
batteries too.
The fire part occurs from the small electrical spark. Shesh,
lunch could get dangerous.
:S:MarkSCoffman
-
@all
I just posted my first battery prototype here
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9346.msg248575#new
With pictures and meter reading ...
Mark
-
@ Dr Zoldberg,
It would be great if you can give us more information about the gel electrodes. That is very interesting information, indeed.
@Conrad.
This is probably the answer to my puzzlement.
I will see if I can set up my scope in a way to measure what you are seeing in yours. Meantime, I will figure on the half point and see if it corresponds to the amount of light output I am seeing.
Thank you,
jeanna
-
if you take a potato, and you place 2 probes in it, at a distance
it creates a nice battery. its a potassium reaction that is stimulated by the current flow. an almost identicle thing happens with a lemon. [2K + 2H2O -> 2KOH + H2] the hydrogen fuses with oxygen at the anode (?) and forms back into water.
you can run a clock straight off a potato for weeks. just put probes on the plug and stick it in. adding the salt probably acts as some sort of catalyst. (or reactant with the toothpase to help start the fire?) potatoes are actually a suprising source of energy.
if you were willing to sacrifice the minerals in your soil, you could probably run the farm off of them, instead of selling them for food...
-
@ Dr Zoldberg,
It would be great if you can give us more information about the gel electrodes. That is very interesting information, indeed.
I used a small medical solid gel electrode and put a copper coin and a piece of zinc on it. I got about 0.85V and 40 µA. If I use a wet paper towel instead I get 100 µA. So I get less then half the current from the solid gel but the big advantage is that it never dries out.
The current may seem a little low but that's because I wasn't able to put the gel in between the coin and the zinc. I put both on the same side of the gel electrode.
It also is sticky which should come in handy if I want to use manganese dioxide in my battery.
Now I just need to find out if I can dissolve that gel, maybe in acetone, so I can soak paper in it. Then maybe I can build a powerful zamboni pile.
-
Here are 2 pix of 2 airbats running a beefy joule thief circuit.
The jt circuit makes 441v spikes when being driven by a AA battery, but with a 25mA airbat, I am getting 45v at 38khz.
The second pic shows the same circuit being run by a 5.1mA airbat. It is a 1/2 inch cu pipe wound with mg ribbon and completely taped. When it is soaked, it gives 5.1mA.
jeanna
-
This project is simply amazing. Not only it is demonstrating history of Natan Stumblefield in its primary origins but also opening new doors.
I had an idea. Based on the Big 1 1/2 amp 2 batteries with the tick carbon rod and Magnesium and after a few days it oxidized (here at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9276.msg246347#msg246347) I thought about:
- What would be the effect of this same battery under a Bedini Radiant charge effect? Would it rejuvenate the Mg battery (NS battery) and reverse the oxidation and therefore promote longer life or it would not help?
I wonder based on Natan's patent that his battery is in reality 3 things at once, battery, coil and radiant receiver (secondary battery if it was a Bedini monopole) just like this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuQGuXJ02fo&feature=related). That could explain (if my idea is correct) that it would run for a much longer time than chemical reactions allow, all because of the positive effects of radiant energy.
Fausto.
-
@all
I got more detail on the potato lighter mixing fluoride and salt make fluorine ...
Look at this video to see the power of fluorine :o
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/50237/Fluorine_new_Periodic_Table_of_Videos/
-
@MK1. That was a good and scary video. hmm my teeth! ...do not add salt to tooth gel while brushing my teeth?
OR... become a fire breathing dragon in 2 easy steps, using only tooth gel and table salt! No match is necessary! ;D ;D
----
I think I actually have a qualified air battery. 8)
I had forgotten to add the salt when I made my latest, so I made a very strong solution of epsom salts after the fact and both soaked the battery then sat the air battery into what was left which was about 1/2 inch in the bottom of a glass. It really blasted the lights. My meter said it was making over 147mA. amazing.
Then I let it dry out and it produced less than 1mA. So, I sat it into plain water, and it immediately took off.
After about 10 minutes... maybe less, I poured the water out of the glass and 24 hours later, the lights are not as bright, but they are bright and on and the battery feels dry.
So, maybe this is a real air battery..
That would be cool.
(please recall that this is a 1"cu pipe 7" long with 30 -32 turns of mg ribbon ( = 100 inches) half taped around it, and using cloth as separator.)
thank you,
jeanna
-
Good afternoon
I present to you the experience of the life of one man, in Russian
--------------------------
Ð’ далеком 18.. (не помню точно) году руÑÑкий ученый ВаÑилий Петров Ñоорудил батарею ÑоÑтоÑщую из чередующихÑÑ Ð¼ÐµÐ´Ð½Ñ‹Ñ… и цинковых кружков, между Ñтими кружками была проложена ткань, чтобы изолировать кружки друг от друга, затем в Ñту батарею залили преÑную воду и погрузили в лодку,в лодке был уÑтановлен Ñлектромотор мощноÑтью около 2 киловатт, Ð±Ð°Ñ‚Ð°Ñ€ÐµÑ ÑƒÑÑ‚Ð°Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð½Ð°Ñ Ð² лодке выдавала примерно такую же мощноÑÑ‚ÑŒ, поÑле Ñтого неÑколько дней проходили иÑÐ¿Ñ‹Ñ‚Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ Ð½Ð° одной из рек, Ñлектромотор работал беÑперебойно, не подвела и медно-Ñ†Ð¸Ð½ÐºÐ¾Ð²Ð°Ñ Ð±Ð°Ñ‚Ð°Ñ€ÐµÑ , выводы были такие- без раÑхода какого либо топлива(за иÑключением воды, мизерный раÑход) можно было питать Ñлектромотор в лодке, Ñ‚Ð°ÐºÐ°Ñ Ð±Ð°Ñ‚Ð°Ñ€ÐµÑ Ð¾Ñ‡ÐµÐ½ÑŒ хорошо подходит Ð´Ð»Ñ Ñ€ÐµÑ‡Ð½Ð¾Ð³Ð¾ транÑпорта оборудованного Ñлектромотором. Ðа Ñтом вÑе и закончилоÑÑŒ. Ð’ далеких 90Ñ… нашего века во времена кризиÑа ÑлектроÑнергии в КазахÑтане Ñ Ð²Ñпомнил о Ñтой батарее Петрова и попробовал Ñоорудить неÑколько уÑовершенÑтвованную батарею Петрова, Ñуть Ñтого Ñфекта в том что между Ð´Ð²ÑƒÐ¼Ñ Ð¼ÐµÑ‚Ð°Ð»Ð»Ð°Ð¼Ð¸ разделенными водопроницаемым изолÑтором(у Петрова была ткань) возникает ÑлектричеÑкий ток, ÑоединÑÑ Ð¿Ð°Ñ€Ð°Ð»Ð»ÐµÐ»ÑŒÐ½Ð¾ или поÑледовательно добиваютÑÑ Ð½ÑƒÐ¶Ð½Ð¾Ð³Ð¾ напрÑÐ¶ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð¸ мощноÑти, воду Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð±Ð°Ñ‚Ð°Ñ€ÐµÐ¸ лучше брать диÑтиллированную, дольше проÑлужит(проверено),так как мощноÑÑ‚ÑŒ и напрÑжение в Ñтой батарее завиÑит от площади ÑоприкоÑÐ½Ð¾Ð²ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ñ‚Ð¾ вполне логично напрашиваетÑÑ Ð²Ñ‹Ð²Ð¾Ð´ - чтобы Ñоздать компактную и мощную батарею нужно иÑпользовать тонкую медную и цинковую(или покрытую цинком фольгу) , а изолÑтором хорошо поÑлужит Ñ‚Ð¾Ð½ÐºÐ°Ñ ÑинтетичеÑÐºÐ°Ñ Ñ‚ÑŽÐ»ÑŒ, поÑле Ñобираем батарею Ð¼ÐµÐ´Ð½Ð°Ñ Ñ„Ð¾Ð»ÑŒÐ³Ð° - тюль - Ñ†Ð¸Ð½ÐºÐ¾Ð²Ð°Ñ Ñ„Ð¾Ð»ÑŒÐ³Ð° -тюль -Ð¼ÐµÐ´Ð½Ð°Ñ Ñ„Ð¾Ð»ÑŒÐ³Ð° и так далее и получаетÑÑ Ð² итоге батарейка Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð¾Ñ‚Ð°ÑŽÑ‰Ð°Ñ Ð½Ð° воде + небольшой выход водорода(идет Ñамо Ñлектролиз воды). Собрал Ñ Ñ‚Ð°ÐºÑƒÑŽ батарейку из того что было под рукой(куÑочки медной и покрытой цинком фольги), не было даже теÑтера чтобы измерить напрÑжение и мощноÑÑ‚ÑŒ, но методом тыка, подÑоединÑл лампочку 4,5 вольта, добилÑÑ Ñркого горениÑ, Ð±Ð°Ñ‚Ð°Ñ€ÐµÑ Ñ€Ð°Ð±Ð¾Ñ‚Ð°Ð»Ð° пол года поÑле была выброшена за ненадобноÑтью(поÑвилÑÑ Ñвет), вÑе те пол года пока не было Ñвета Ñта Ð±Ð°Ñ‚Ð°Ñ€ÐµÑ Ð´Ð°Ð²Ð°Ð»Ð° Ñвет(Ð¼Ð°Ð»ÐµÐ½ÑŒÐºÐ°Ñ Ð»Ð°Ð¼Ð¿Ð¾Ñ‡ÐºÐ° от фонарика) и позволÑла Ñлушать радио. Ртак вполне можно делать такие батарейки, будут Ñлужить годами, но похоже не выгодно производить гоÑударÑтву такие долгоиграющие батарейки.
------------------------
It says: the battery that served for many years, required only sauce distilled water or pure water, consisted of copper foil + synthetic tulle + zinc foil.
Note: no salt in the water! This extends the work!
-
@zhak
I think that kitchen paper towel comes pretty close to synthetic tulle.
I did long time tests with copper - aluminium and copper - mild steel (both separated by kitchen paper towel soaked with water):
- tap water without salt works but gives less ampere than salted water;
- after two to three weeks the cell (or battery) stops working because strange deposits have formed on the metals; washing and scrapping off the deposits and replacing the paper brings the battery back to life; therefore one should come up with a design that allows easy assembly and disassembly;
- total submersion of the metals in water only works for some hours (therefore one should use paper).
I am on the way to try silver and zinc and will report the results.
I never tried magnesium because I consider it dangerous (fire hazard).
A very good anode would be graphite, but I did not discover a good source in Central Europe yet.
A very good combination concerning voltage is graphite in combination with magnesium but silver in combination with zinc comes very close to it (and is easier to get; silver coated copper wire is not expensive; also zinc coated wire is not expensive, many nails are zinc coated).
Did you replicate the "Russian battery"?
Greetings, Conrad
-
Russian to English text translation c/o "the fish"
---
translated from zahk's post;
In order to create a compact and powerful battery all that is necessary is to use
thin copper and zinc disks (or disks covered with zinc foil), and as insulator thin
synthetic tulle cloth which will serve as a water permeable insulator. One gathers
the battery together as copper foil - tulle cloth - zinc foil - tulle cloth - copper foil
and so on to obtain the resultant small battery pile working with water, plus a low
yield of hydrogen gas. It produces the electrolysis products of water automatically.
[Web link defining Tulle cloth];
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulle_netting
In the year 1918. (I do not remember the exact date) Russian scientific Vasiliy
Petrov built this battery consisting of the alternating copper and zinc disks,
between these circles was lain cloth, in order to insulate disks from one another.
Then fresh water was poured into this device and it was mounted on the
inside of a boat. In the boat, an electric motor with the power of ~2KW was also
mounted and the battery connection provided about the same power to run it .
After this several days of undergoing tests on a river, the motor ran constantly
without interruption, but all this work did not bring this copper-zinc battery
to exhaustion even though it consumed no fuel (except for a very scanty
expenditure of water) Since it was possible to feed electric motor on the boat -
this battery would be well suited to river transportation. These batteries
were also used to power a radio.
So even though it is completely possible to make such small batteries, and they
will serve for years, It most likely is not profitable to produce these long lasting
small batteries.
---
Natural water will contain some ionic minerals and CO^2 is absorbed
by any standing water to yield carbonic acid ions.
:S:MarkSCoffman
-
@mscoffman and all interested in simple batteries:
There seems to be a grave error in the Russian text.
Look at a "voltaic pile", e.g. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Voltaic_pile.png
It is obvious that the right order of metals and tulle is the following:
copper
tulle
zinc
copper
tulle
zinc
copper
tulle
zinc
There must always be a zinc plate in touch with a copper plate (besides the first copper and the last zinc plate). The Russian text omits this "touching of metals" in a voltaic pile and proposes tulle between all plates. This would cause 0 Voltage (in case the first and the last plate is of the same metal) or just one "copper - zinc" difference in Voltage over the whole pile (which is around 0.5 Volt).
And it is hard to believe the 2 KW.
Interesting, already in 1918 there where tall tales about technical achievements. And I thought that started with overunty.com :)
Greetings, Conrad
-
Just another update on my next air battery. Today I remembered to really soak the cloth in the strong epsom salts solution. With 32 turns around the 1" copper pipe 7 inches long I got 201mA.
That is my record.
I am liking that I can get these results using a small length of a copper pipe that is available at the hardware store... not to mention the $3.40 price of it.
A "D" cell is the same diameter, and about 2 1/2 inches long.
With the copper wire that forms a hoop at the top it is the same as 3 "D" size batteries.
I am now lighting 6 leds in series from the secondary of this, which means that if I add 3 more strings of 6 leds in parallel, it will be as bright as the 24 led lobe light in the camper, which is a great lamp.
;) Hmm I am wondering if I can slip the pipe over a "candle" in a standard lamp and run that lamp from a bright jtc. Looks like a trip the the thrift store is coming up. (that is more fun than moving isn't it?) ;)
-------------
I also want to report on the carbon stick wound with a little mag ribbon.
That is only 3 inches long and I wound just about 6 times around which might be 4 inches length of mag ribbon.
I made a special jtc for it without a base resistor but with a 47uF cap at the base, (like the 'mosquito' that lidmotor did). That puppy lights 2 leds in series off its secondary for days before needing a drink.
I am reporting this because it is easy to think if I do not say anything it has stopped.
It has NOT stopped.
thank you,
jeanna
edit add:
And it is hard to believe the 2 KW.
Interesting, already in 1918 there where tall tales about technical achievements. And I thought that started with overunty.com :)
;D ;D
Hi conrad,
I agree the 2KW is really hard to believe.
I am glad you said it!
Also,
Stephan has been using graphit paper. We called it carbon paper in the states. We used to use it for making pressure copies of typed documents. Maybe there is a store with old stock that has some?
jeanna
-
@jeanna
Try to take your mag/copper battery and carbon rod , and try to make a battery between the carbon and copper by using the copper side lead of your battery (paper on the carbon rod ,your battery lead copper side twisted around the carbon rod), and check the voltage between the magnesium and the carbon ...
Mark
-
Huh?
Carbon to copper to magnesium?
-
Huh?
Carbon to copper to magnesium?
:D Sorry Yes !
Mark
-
Mark,
I am not sure why you asked me to combine them, but I did.
I put a piece of epsom salts soaked cloth between each layer and started with
the carbon stick inside
then cloth,
then copper wire wrapped around the cloth,
then more cloth
then magnesium wrapped around that.
Here are the results:
C -- Mg 1.82v
Cu --Mg 1.45
C to Cu 0.4v
jeanna
-
@Jeanna
was that a typo or was it 182v ?
Kind Regards
Mark
-
@jeanna
Basically making a magnesium/ copper battery and a copper /carbon battery in series sharing the copper . That way you should have the carbon/magnesium voltage.
Mark
Just use the battery you already have , and add a carbon electrode to the copper.
-
@Jeanna
was that a typo or was it 182v ?
Kind Regards
Mark
;D ;D
I wish!
I will fix it. Thanks.
1.82v
jeanna
-
@jeanna
Basically making a magnesium/ copper battery and a copper /carbon battery in series sharing the copper . That way you should have the carbon/magnesium voltage.
Mark
Just use the battery you already have , and add a carbon electrode to the copper.
Oh, I see... like Pete's 3 level thing. I will let you know in a moment.
jeanna
-
C -- Mg 1.82v
Cu --Mg 1.45 +
C to Cu 0.4v
-----------------
C -- Mg 1.45v
pretty close. I think they are the same separately or summed.
jeanna
-
Today, I realized I had made a mistake in the way I hooked up the meter to the 3 electrodes.
So, I repeated the test with the correct placement of meter leads this time.
The result is the same.
The meter only sees the widest voltage difference and reports that.
It is a curious thing and there is a reason to think that sometimes using intermediary electrodes will help, but I do not think that is the case here.
Too bad.
After Conrad mentioned that he won't use magnesium, I began to think about the dangers of using a potential fire hazard inside my house, and so, I have decided to put all my magnesium supply into a 'safer' place, and for safety reasons I have also decided to tape up all the exposed magnesium except for a very thin line down each battery that will allow some moisture to get in. And, I may even cover that up later.
thank you,
jeanna
-
@jeanna
Thank you very much , for the experiment !
I know how to solve the issue , if you are still willing .
put one layer of alu foil between the copper and carbon .
so original battery
magnesium / separator / copper / separator / carbon
New one you get over 2 volts ...
magnesium / separator / copper /aluminum/ separator / carbon
No separator between the copper and aluminum .
-
@MK1,
It seems a good idea, but I still only get 1.74v
carbon//separator/copper/aluminum//separator/magnesium
The potential difference remains the same.
I am getting 3.6mA which, considering the short length of each part, seems to to be quite high, so this might give a mA boost. It is more materials
===
I keep trying to make carbon in a different place and also tried by mistake:
carbon//separator/aluminum/copper//separator/magnesium
so it kind of zig zagged the galvanic chart, and brought the results down on both volts and amps.
This time I got 1.6v and 1.8mA
So much for the thought that more materials brought me more mA ;)
I hope I am following what you are saying!
jeanna
-
@jeanna
This is strange it will not work like a voltaic pile either ???
I believe you did it right .
But you wroth carbon//separator/copper/aluminum//separator/magnesium
copper and aluminum are in the wrong order , the idea is 2 battery one between the magnesium and copper and one between the carbon and aluminum , but i am beginning to see that if you don't use the same pair it will not add up . It loses .5 volts between copper and aluminum .
-
@all
The separator makes a huge difference in the results .
I made a battery a good month ago , from 2 wires copper and aluminum .
i used a dress shirt material , very thin cotton and it is still working bone dry for weeks .
Mark
-
@All
Pictures of the wire battery , the volts are still really high , the amps are real low 35 micro amp rises to 3.5 miliamp when wet , but the design is the problem here .
-
@jeanna
This is strange it will not work like a voltaic pile either ???
I believe you did it right .
But you wrote carbon//separator/copper/aluminum//separator/magnesium
copper and aluminum are in the wrong order , the idea is 2 battery one between the magnesium and copper and one between the carbon and aluminum , but i am beginning to see that if you don't use the same pair it will not add up . It loses .5 volts between copper and aluminum .
Actually, I did it both ways and the one in the order you copied, and say is wrong, is the one that seemed to have higher v and mA to it.
This is really small and hard to work, almost like your wire in that way.
The concept is interesting, and I don't see why it doesn't work better.
I still think I am making a mistake, but, I cannot find it.
Maybe if I made a bigger one, it would last longer, or give some other improvement. And maybe it really does give more mA at less cost to the materials.
jeanna
-
@mscoffman and all interested in simple batteries:
There seems to be a grave error in the Russian text.
Look at a "voltaic pile", e.g. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Voltaic_pile.png
It is obvious that the right order of metals and tulle is the following:
copper
tulle
zinc
copper
tulle
zinc
copper
tulle
zinc
There must always be a zinc plate in touch with a copper plate (besides the first copper and the last zinc plate). The Russian text omits this "touching of metals" in a voltaic pile and proposes tulle between all plates. This would cause 0 Voltage (in case the first and the last plate is of the same metal) or just one "copper - zinc" difference in Voltage over the whole pile (which is around 0.5 Volt).
And it is hard to believe the 2 KW.
Interesting, already in 1918 there where tall tales about technical achievements. And I thought that started with overunty.com :)
Greetings, Conrad
Not so fast conrad; (sorry, i just had to say that here)
I figured out what he means by this, I think. Suppose you alternate
metals like they say, but you then connect every similar *pair* of metal
disk together in sort of a stamped clip shape.
You would then have the battery in series as 2Q+Q+2Q.
Why? Back in 1918 or whatever even today the touching of dissimilar
metals in a circuit would be difficult to support because electrolyte
would tend to work it's way between the metals and cause corrosion.
This would be especially true of metal foils. If the cells were really thin
you could have a thousand in a single pile. ala Joesph Newman motor.
Flooding of the battery with water might not be so efficient, but it could
also result in the electrolysis reported.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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@ MarkSCoffman
Yes, I was too fast; concentrating on the "voltage addition" in a voltaic pile, while we seem to get a "current addition" in the Russian battery. Good thinking Mark!
See the attached drawing. I guess you see it like that? (The Russian inventor in 1918 probably intended such a hook up?)
I like the idea and will try it.
For higher voltage one would need several such batteries in series.
You are right, it is important to keep copper and zinc apart. I got problems with that when experimenting with similar piles or stacks. My voltaic pile had to be very "dry" to work properly. Already a little moisture between the touching dissimilar metal plates caused heavy corrosion and soon voltage loss.
I looked at the voltaic pile because one only needs to make a connection to the top and bottom plate. As I found, the connections to the plates are also a problem. Connection-wire and plate should be of the same metal in order to avoid corrosion problems.
Greetings, Conrad
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How come this thread has died? :( I'm in the process of building an air battery, I will post details when its done :)
-
I have been enjoying this thread very much and am just waiting for my carbon rods to arrive this week to begin my replications.
I do have one question if anyone has tried the following(Just thinking outside the box)...to date every one has wound the magnesium around the carbon core with a dielectric in between. However has anyone tried putting the carbon around a magnesium core.
I actually have ordered the parts for that as well so I can hopefully try them side by side. It is my design to use large copper pipe sections about a foot in length with a solid bottom. Then take a solid magnesium core and wrap the dielectric around that including the bottom and set it inside the copper pipe section. The magnesium core I found has a steel center to attach a lead. Once the magnesium core is inside fill the rest with powdered carbon, or coal. I have been working with both in my latest earth battery experiments. After that thanother lead can be attached to the copper pipe.
Let me know your feelings on that. I will be sharing my findings once I get this assembled.
Bizzy
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@Bizzy
I do have one question if anyone has tried the following(Just thinking outside the box)...to date every one has wound the magnesium around the carbon core with a dielectric in between. However has anyone tried putting the carbon around a magnesium core.
Interesting approach - Good Luck with your project. This forum is about sharing information and here is a couple of ideas to consider. Stainless Steel mesh and activated carbon is very easy to form into a shape of your design - is quite inexpensive - is as effective as electric carbon brush in my experiments. Also - Coffee filters make a good separator material.
Brad S
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b_rads
I like the idea of using activated carbon as a source of carbon. That seems alot easier to work with than crushing pieces of coal or bartering a bottle of homemade wine with my cousin who works at a carbon plant in St Marys, Pa...thanks for the tIP. Do you know if it works as well as regular powdered carbon?
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@Bizzy
I have not tried powdered carbon - do not know how the two would compare for performance. I have experimented with the activated carbon in water batteries and very happy with the results. In the water batteries, I look for as much surface area as possible in both the cathode and anode for the galvanic effect to take place and this has served my purpose very well. Not certain how it would perform in the air batteries. Best of luck.
Brad S
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b_rads
I picked up some activated carbon at lunch today and want to hopefully set up my experiments later this weekend. I never worked with it before so i am uncertain how to use it. It seems like it is in small pellets. Should this be ground into a fine powder like I would do when I use coal?
thanks
Bizzy
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@Bizzy
I have used stainless steel mesh formed into the shape needed and simply packed the carbon as tight as will go. A quick rinse with tap water and connect my positive to the stainless steel mesh.
Brad S
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@bizzy
For your consideration! Sunday morning I threw together a small cell loosely based on your idea in an above post. This is a magnesium fire starter wrapped in a coffee filter and surrounded by activated carbon with @jeanna’s Epsom Salt electrolyte. The cell outputs 1.25v. The cell is powering a cheap solar accent light with its AA rechargeable battery removed. I apologize ahead of time for posting this in the air battery thread – however, I feel this does have some relevance to the design mentioned by @bizzy earlier.
Brad S
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b_rads
That is great work. It also looks like the cell is totally eclosed...is that correct? How long has this been running continuously?
I am still waiting for all of my parts to arrive.
Thanks
Bizzy
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You are correct, the cell is totally enclosed - this should impede any evaporation of the electrolyte. The cell is just over 24hr old - I will keep an eye on it - no observable reduction in output yet.
Brad S
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Brad
Great work keep us posted.
Bizzy
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You are correct, the cell is totally enclosed - this should impede any evaporation of the electrolyte. The cell is just over 24hr old - I will keep an eye on it - no observable reduction in output yet.
Brad S
Hi Brad
How are your tests going? I received my magnesium extrusions today so i will be able to assemble my air batteries this weekend.
Bizzy
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@bizzy
For your consideration! Sunday morning I threw together a small cell loosely based on your idea in an above post. This is a magnesium fire starter wrapped in a coffee filter and surrounded by activated carbon with @jeanna’s Epsom Salt electrolyte. The cell outputs 1.25v. The cell is powering a cheap solar accent light with its AA rechargeable battery removed. I apologize ahead of time for posting this in the air battery thread – however, I feel this does have some relevance to the design mentioned by @bizzy earlier.
Brad S
Hi Again
Where can I find Jeanna’s Epsom Salt electrolyte? I have no idea what thread to begin looking for it
Thanks
Bizzy
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@ MarkSCoffman
Yes, I was too fast; concentrating on the "voltage addition" in a voltaic pile, while we seem to get a "current addition" in the Russian battery. Good thinking Mark!
See the attached drawing. I guess you see it like that? (The Russian inventor in 1918 probably intended such a hook up?)
I like the idea and will try it.
For higher voltage one would need several such batteries in series.
You are right, it is important to keep copper and zinc apart. I got problems with that when experimenting with similar piles or stacks. My voltaic pile had to be very "dry" to work properly. Already a little moisture between the touching dissimilar metal plates caused heavy corrosion and soon voltage loss.
I looked at the voltaic pile because one only needs to make a connection to the top and bottom plate. As I found, the connections to the plates are also a problem. Connection-wire and plate should be of the same metal in order to avoid corrosion problems.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad
What are you using to seperate the copper and zinc layers?
Thanks
Bizzy
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Where can I find Jeanna’s Epsom Salt electrolyte?
Many of the members here would soak their separator material before wrapping the magnesium around the core. Many different solutions have been tried. @jeanna used Epsom Salt diluted in water with good success. Various materials such as paper towel, t-shirt material, etc. have been used as the separator. I personally like coffee filters.
BTW - the cell I posted Monday is still going strong.
Brad S
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Many of the members here would soak their separator material before wrapping the magnesium around the core. Many different solutions have been tried. @jeanna used Epsom Salt diluted in water with good success. Various materials such as paper towel, t-shirt material, etc. have been used as the separator. I personally like coffee filters.
BTW - the cell I posted Monday is still going strong.
Brad S
Hi Brad,
At first I was thinking of using cotton. However I relazed I don't have much aof a gap between the magnezium rod and the outher copper wall. So I was thinking of using mascing tape like lasersaber did in his first video. I have enough material for 5 cells so I is my gola to set them up with various dielctrics bewteen the carbon and magnesium todetermin which is best.
Bizzy
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Good Morning
This is a picture of my working "air" battery
Each cell is made of copper casing with a copper plug bottom. A thin layer of activated carbon at the bottom. A magnesium rod is covered with mascing tape and incerted inside and more activatred carbon is filled in. I poured a shot glass full of water into each cell and hooked them in a series. and the result is 5.96 volts.
Currently I am running an led on just 2 cells to see how long it runns.
Bizzy
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Nice work. Have you tired hooking it to a JT circuit? With 5 volts I think you could light like 500 leds maybe.
Bill
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Nice work. Have you tired hooking it to a JT circuit? With 5 volts I think you could light like 500 leds maybe.
Bill
Hi Bill
Thanks... Yes I just did and got 13.98 volts. I have to do some running around this afternoon and am going to pick up a string of LEDs from Lowes to see how well they do. My wife is already making plans for me to hook up LEd lasndscaping liughts for her run only by these batteries.
Bizzy
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Hi Bizzy very nice work keep going. How much voltage and amperage per rod? If there is little amperage to JT try Stingo it runs with 20ma only and even less. Do you have a diagram how exactly done? Regarding Gravity wheel I have posted another idea should see.
Thanks.
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Hi Bizzy very nice work keep going. How much voltage and amperage per rod? If there is little amperage to JT try Stingo it runs with 20ma only and even less. Do you have a diagram how exactly done? Regarding Gravity wheel I have posted another idea should see.
Thanks.
Good Morning gruji
When I get to work I will post a diagram. The cells are very easy to make. Although I do admit I had to have my wife help with some of the tape :)
What is a Stingo?
I Looked at your other idea as well. Where exactly does the belt drive run?
Thanks
Bizzy
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Good Morning gruji
When I get to work I will post a diagram. The cells are very easy to make. Although I do admit I had to have my wife help with some of the tape :)
What is a Stingo?
I Looked at your other idea as well. Where exactly does the belt drive run?
Thanks
Bizzy
Hi Bizzy Good Morning too you too. A Stingo is a small circuit by Sucahyo if you cannot find it on this forum I will post the diagram. It's like a Joule thief but a bit different with only one winding to the toroid. I found it ; that it charges big batteries quite well with only little amperage.
Regarding the gravity wheel that I planned is a wheel with small wheels around and a weight on their side for unbalance. To hold them on same position while turning; belts are necessary to the fixed centre.
I think this will work and when I have time I will do this. If you did not understood ask me I will help.
Thanks
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Good Morning gruji
When I get to work I will post a diagram. The cells are very easy to make. Although I do admit I had to have my wife help with some of the tape :)
What is a Stingo?
I Looked at your other idea as well. Where exactly does the belt drive run?
Thanks
Bizzy
Hi guruji
yes if you could post the schematic for the stingo that would be a big help.
I should have the diagram up for the cells later today.
Bizzy
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Good morning
Here is a diagram of the cell I used. I then hooked them up in a series. Copper to magnesium. I hope to work on it more after work today and will report on what I find. Enjoy
Bizzy
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This is a picture of my working "air" battery
Sweet
One way to dramatically reduce the cost of the cells and maintain the same performance is to use PVC instead of copper pipe. Strip of a foot or so of insulated wire and pack your activated carbon so that the wire is embedded in the length of your cell.
1 day we should bury these cells in the yard and see what impact this has. Rainwater, lawn watering, and morning dew might keep these cells juiced. Good work!
Brad S
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Sweet
One way to dramatically reduce the cost of the cells and maintain the same performance is to use PVC instead of copper pipe. Strip of a foot or so of insulated wire and pack your activated carbon so that the wire is embedded in the length of your cell.
1 day we should bury these cells in the yard and see what impact this has. Rainwater, lawn watering, and morning dew might keep these cells juiced. Good work!
Brad S
Hi Brad
I actually thought about burying these as well. But that will have to wait. We got 12 inches of snow last night and more on the way.
I thought about using PVC as well but was uncertain If I would lose voltage due to smaller contact with the carbon.
There are several experiments which I want to do in order to tweek it and try to improve it. One idea was to use PVC.
Thanks
Bizzy
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I thought about using PVC as well but was uncertain If I would lose voltage due to smaller contact with the carbon.
See this post for concerns about voltage loss:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9752.msg275495#new
Brad S
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See this post for concerns about voltage loss:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9752.msg275495#new
Brad S
Hi Brad
I am thinking that the reduced surface contact between the copper and carbon would also reduce the voltage That should be easy to test later on this week. I will run two cells side by side. One with the copper tubes and one in pvc with copper wire in the carbon for leads.
Thanks for giving me credit I am humbled, but hoinestly it is everyone on this site bouncing ideas off of each other that helped develop the idea.
Thanks
Bizzy
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Sweet
One way to dramatically reduce the cost of the cells and maintain the same performance is to use PVC instead of copper pipe. Strip of a foot or so of insulated wire and pack your activated carbon so that the wire is embedded in the length of your cell.
1 day we should bury these cells in the yard and see what impact this has. Rainwater, lawn watering, and morning dew might keep these cells juiced. Good work!
Brad S
Hi B_rads about the cell you're mentioning so you don't use magnesium rod? Just PVC; carbon and copper wire?.
Thanks.
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Hi B_rads about the cell you're mentioning so you don't use magnesium rod? Just PVC; carbon and copper wire?.
Thanks.
The sacrificial anode can be a metal of your choice. I like zinc because it is soooo cheap. Bizzy is using magnesium. I suspect aluminum could also be used.
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The sacrificial anode can be a metal of your choice. I like zinc because it is soooo cheap. Bizzy is using magnesium. I suspect aluminum could also be used.
Hi Brad
Yes you could use any metal for the "sacrifical" metal as long as it it differant than the primary component which is carbon. However there is also work being done with same metal batteries in another thread as well.
Bizzy
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Check out this link:
http://www.thelenchannel.com/1galv.php (http://www.thelenchannel.com/1galv.php)
I posted this about 3 years ago on the earth battery topic. This chart shows that it makes a huge difference what metals are used. This is why I chose magnesium and carbon a long time ago. They are the cheapest and easiest to get metals that give the most difference. I frequently get over 2 volts from my earth battery which is still running after all of this time.
I hope this helps.
Bill
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Good morning
The following are the results of my latest test. I wanted to know if granular size of the carbon made a differance. Below is a picruew of a single cell with activated carbon just as you would buy it at the store.
Bizzy
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The following is another cell with the carbon fiely ground. Although .08 volts may not seem like a big differance, it is an increase. And the water is still settling into that cell.
When I pooured the water into the granualr cells the water went down easily. However in the case of the fine ground carbon it is taking much longer to filter down. I am hoping by this evening it will be full and I can get better readings.
Bizzy
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Good morning
I discovered an error last night. When I was originally setting up the cells my wife came in and I forgot to add water to the last cell which by itself was not producing any power. So as a result my original readings of 5.9 volts was just for 4 cells not five.
Each cell individually produces bewteen 1.49 and 1.52 (not including the new cell with fine carbon instead of granualar) If water would have been added to the 5th cell the power would have been much higher.
Just to prove this I hooked all the cells in a series this morning before work. In this I also included the new cell and I was getting 7.40 volts.
The new cell individual output was already to 1.61 volts. I will have more updates tomorrow.
Bizzy
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Bizzy:
Nice work man. Those are some good numbers. Are you getting much mA's? Those are great looking cells.
Bill
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Bizzy:
Nice work man. Those are some good numbers. Are you getting much mA's? Those are great looking cells.
Bill
Hi Bill
thanks! I tested for amperage once but was not sure the number were right becuase they were so high. So I am borrowing my freind's multimeter this evening to verify what I found. If it is correct (which I hope but doubt) I will post those results as well.
I also want to test three other types of dielectrics in these cells. cotton clothe, paper(coffee filters ala Brad) and thin plastic.
After that test I want to test using just wires instead of copper tubes for as Brad suggested.
Finally I will convert all the cells to the best results of these tests as well as the fine ground carbon. This should hopefully give me an optimal system.
Bizzy
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I tested for amperage once but was not sure the number were right becuase they were so high.Bizzy
Good morning Bizzy - very impressive!
See below for the PVC we talked about yesterday. I was out of conduit so I used threaded rod instead, I much prefer the conduit. Let's share numbers: Open circuit voltage for two cells (2.25v).
Voltage with load (1.5v). Amperage while running fan motor (165ma). I would think your amperage would be higher.
Keep up the good work!
Brad S
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Good morning Bizzy - very impressive!
See below for the PVC we talked about yesterday. I was out of conduit so I used threaded rod instead, I much prefer the conduit. Let's share numbers: Open circuit voltage for two cells (2.25v).
Voltage with load (1.5v). Amperage while running fan motor (165ma). I would think your amperage would be higher.
Keep up the good work!
Brad S
Hi Brad
You have a very nice set up yourself! I hope to test your wire idea versus my copper tube design either today or tomorrow. So we can start comparing our results with a less variables.
As afar as amps goes I do know I am producing more just by the fact that I am using magnesium and carbon but like I mentioned I don't trust my readings enough to actually post them yet. I'll just say that it is not in milliamps. :)
Bizzy
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As afar as amps goes I do know I am producing more just by the fact that I am using magnesium and carbon but like I mentioned I don't trust my readings enough to actually post them yet. I'll just say that it is not in milliamps. :)
Bizzy
You've got me excited. I am not very confident in my reading sometimes. When I doubt my readings I use 2 multimeters (1 analog, 1 digital) for verification.
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You've got me excited. I am not very confident in my reading sometimes. When I doubt my readings I use 2 multimeters (1 analog, 1 digital) for verification.
You just reminded me, that I have an analog ampmeter on my alternator testing table. With a little rewiring I may be able to use it it to double check my amp readings on my multimeter.
merci vielmals
Bizzy
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Hi Bizzy and B_rads very impressive work you've doing nice nice. Is Charcoal same as carbon?
Thanks
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Hi Bizzy and B_rads very impressive work you've doing nice nice. Is Charcoal same as carbon?
Thanks
I beleive that charcol is a source of carbon but not very good. Coal would be a better source of carbon and have been experimenting with that in my earth batteries before the snow arrived.
Bizzy
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Good Morning
As promised here are the results of all the cells hooked in series including the cell with finely ground carbon. 7.63 volts.
I know for certain it can go higher with the ground carbon, but there are still other tests that need done and the granular carbon is easier to work with.So I am going to leave the others granular for now
Bizzy
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Hi Brad
I wanted to compare your idea of incerting the wire as you do compared with using the copper tube as I do. The following are those results.
In the following picture is a single cell using granular carbon and magnesium as before. I was hoping to use a galvanized tube and thought I had one in my workshop but didn't.
The voltage results were 1.51 volts.
Bizzy
-
continued...
The following is a picture of a cell using just a single wire in the granualar carbon. Just as the previous picture I used a magnesium rod. The only other differance is I removed the copper tube and used a PVC pipe to contain the carbon and water around the magnesium rod. The resulting voltage is .35 volts.
So I have to conclude that a larger contact area is needed to maximize voltage.
Bizzy
-
Good morning again
I hope to test my other ideas later this week and post the results. I wanted to retest the amperage as well but we got the first disk of Caprica last night and wanted to watch it after dinner so I hope to have the amperage results soon.
Bizzy
-
continued...
The following is a picture of a cell using just a single wire in the granualar carbon. Just as the previous picture I used a magnesium rod. The only other differance is I removed the copper tube and used a PVC pipe to contain the carbon and water around the magnesium rod. The resulting voltage is .35 volts.
So I have to conclude that a larger contact area is needed to maximize voltage.
Bizzy
Good morning
I checked the voltage again before I came into work and the voltage from using the wire instead of the copper tube did go up to 1.08 volts after the water had a chance to work its way through the carbon. However it is still lower than the 1.51 volts using the tubes.
Bizzy
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Hi Bizzy regarding the wire you wrapped it around the magnesium rod? You should do a Joule thief or stingo circuit to one of these and test if it charges a 12v battery.
Thanks for the info.
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Hi Bizzy regarding the wire you wrapped it around the magnesium rod? You should do a Joule thief or stingo circuit to one of these and test if it charges a 12v battery.
Thanks for the info.
Hi Guruji
Actually the wire is incerted into the carbon parallel to the magnesium rod. The reason for this test was just to compare a wire versus copper tubing for electricity production. Since I didn't use a JT for the tubing I didn't use one for the wire either.
Do you have a schematic for the stingo circuit?
Thanks
Bizzy
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Hi Bizzy
did you manage to get those Milliamp readings under load
Mark
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Hi Bizzy
did you manage to get those Milliamp readings under load
Mark
Hi Mark
yes I tried it under load and with no load.
Bizzy
-
Hi bizzy
I must have missed the MA results..or I am a real dumbass (many might agree with that)
I intend to build some up using the copper tube .
Please post the MA results (your volts are great)
mark
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Hi bizzy
I must have missed the MA results..or I am a real dumbass (many might agree with that)
I intend to build some up using the copper tube .
Please post the MA results (your volts are great)
mark
Hi Mark
No you are fine...I have not posted my amperage findings yet becuase I don't trust those numbers yet. They seem too high, so I have to rewire my amp meter from my alternator testing table to verify those findings.
I hope to have those results by the weekend.
Thanks
Bizzy
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I must have missed the MA results..I intend to build some up using the copper tube .
Please post the MA results (your volts are great)
mark
Thanks for clearing up the MA question - I just checked in and have been looking for those reading since your post. Please do build - the more people experimenting with these cells - the faster we will derive an optimum design. This DIY galvanic battery has some potential and the longevity Bill reported with his makes this a promising effort.
Bizzy - Many thanks for the side-by-side comparison (Copper vs. PVC). I am surprised at the difference in performance. Makes me rethink my builds. Since the copper will not be consumed in these configurations, the cost can easily be justified. I need to visit the home improvement store and gather some more materials. Hope I can catch up. Great work and again - Many thanks.
Brad S
-
ps. Is that your homemade wine in the pics? I am jealous! :)
-
Thanks for clearing up the MA question - I just checked in and have been looking for those reading since your post. Please do build - the more people experimenting with these cells - the faster we will derive an optimum design. This DIY galvanic battery has some potential and the longevity Bill reported with his makes this a promising effort.
Bizzy - Many thanks for the side-by-side comparison (Copper vs. PVC). I am surprised at the difference in performance. Makes me rethink my builds. Since the copper will not be consumed in these configurations, the cost can easily be justified. I need to visit the home improvement store and gather some more materials. Hope I can catch up. Great work and again - Many thanks.
Brad S
Hi Brad
You are certainly welcome. You are also correct in that the copper will not be consumed. So the copper tubing would just be an initial investment. Only the carbon and the magnesium, and the carbon only slowly.
Also when teh cell is not in use there is no acid only water so these cells should have a much better shelf life than other cells. The only magnesium degragation will come when it is actually producing power. And with magnesium rods that size I would think the life wold be very long.
Bizzy
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@Bizzy
Many thanks and look forward to the results. The next thing is to see how long the Mag rod holds up. Thats why I will build some.
@B_Rads
many thanks for your posts. I looked at my wine rack and is sadly depleted. I often make wine with the local Italian community (and grappa he he) We have many fine wines down here in Australia.
My interest in this is a humanatarian project a friend of mine is helping out with in Africa...long story but what we develop here could be very helpfull
Mark
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Bizzy and others.
Just a thought :-\ Bizzy, your batteries are somewhat different than what lasersaber started this thread with and my builds are definately straying off course from the original copper/zinc/tap water thread I have been posting in. How about you starting a new thread? Maybe "DIY galvanic batteries" or "activated carbon batteries" or something similar. Again - just a thought.
-
My interest in this is a humanatarian project a friend of mine is helping out with in Africa...long story but what we develop here could be very helpfull
Mark
I can think of no better reason to be here. Cheers! I am honored to exchange ideas with you.
Brad S
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Bizzy and others.
Just a thought :-\ Bizzy, your batteries are somewhat different than what lasersaber started this thread with and my builds are definately straying off course from the original copper/zinc/tap water thread I have been posting in. How about you starting a new thread? Maybe "DIY galvanic batteries" or "activated carbon batteries" or something similar. Again - just a thought.
Hi Brad
I thought about the same thing :) "DIY- non acid carbon batteries". However I am not sure how to start a new thread. If anyone else does.
Please let me know and I can do that.
Thanks
Bizzy
-
Also many thanks to Pirate (Bill)
he has been an inspiration for many years and has a practicle common sense approach to his projects.
I remeber reading somewhere about the amount of mag that would be consumed vs amount of electricity produced. Will try and dig it up.
I am thinking also of using mag tubing inside as it will be easily replaceable if they need to be serviced. This is also lends it self to village enviroments as it requires low tech manufacturing techniques.
Many thanks once again.....ps can we have a sneak at your original amp readings...knowing that they may be wrong and what did you use as a load
Mark
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Hi Brad
I thought about the same thing :) "DIY- non acid carbon batteries". However I am not sure how to start a new thread. If anyone else does.
Please let me know and I can do that.
Thanks
Bizzy
I like the title. I to do not know how to start a new thread. Someone help us please.
-
@Bizzy
Many thanks and look forward to the results. The next thing is to see how long the Mag rod holds up. Thats why I will build some.
@B_Rads
many thanks for your posts. I looked at my wine rack and is sadly depleted. I often make wine with the local Italian community (and grappa he he) We have many fine wines down here in Australia.
My interest in this is a humanatarian project a friend of mine is helping out with in Africa...long story but what we develop here could be very helpfull
Mark
Hi Mark
Wow I am humbled that my lowly hobby of tinkering would be so usefull. Honestly very humble and with new purpose.
I agree the magnesium longevity is a big factor as well.
It is my goal once I get them working to simply make another cell but not use it, while the others are in operation. that way I have a standard to compare the working models to.
My wife and I make wine out of most anything, tomatoes, onions(very good as a maranade) honey, rice, apples, pears strawberries, elderberries, raspberries and grapes, we grow most of our own ingrediants.
Bizzy
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@Bizzy
Off topic..I might email you. I had a few attemps at making wines out of mangoes etc...lets say not the best results. Might get a few tips of you oneday. When we make the wine out of grapes we use only natural fermentation no yeasts added or anything. To say the least the vintage each year is hit or miss. However if its a miss makes for good feed stock for the grappa.
Anyway its 2:30 am must go to be and I hope to make some useful contributions to the battery project.
mark
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something of interest
http://www.cleanteam.ch/blog/tag/magnesium-battery
Mark
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http://wn.com/Fire_starter_magnesium,_activated_carbon,_salt_water_battery_cell
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New topic started here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10426.msg275841#new (http://index.php?topic=10426.msg275841#new)
As requested.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10426.msg275841#new
@ Mark:
Thank you very much for your kind words.
Bill
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Sorry, the link is not working...I will fix it after work. IN the meantime, you can find it in the forum section under other new battery systems.
Bill
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Hi Guruji
Actually the wire is incerted into the carbon parallel to the magnesium rod. The reason for this test was just to compare a wire versus copper tubing for electricity production. Since I didn't use a JT for the tubing I didn't use one for the wire either.
Do you have a schematic for the stingo circuit?
Thanks
Bizzy
Hi Bizzy yes I am sending you the schematic it's easy to build.
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Link is fixed now in my earlier post. Use the second link. For some reason unknown to me, I had to have 2 links, if I remove either one, the second link will not work and neither will the first.....very strange.
Bill
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Hello everone. My first post here on overunity. I'm new to battery construction but I find it interesting and relaxing to fiddle with.
I'm quite versed and have much experience in building other apparatus such as large pulse discharge electromagnetic accelerators and was a Tesla coil nut back in the 90's running pole pigs hand made caps of various types, including oil filled caps. Medium experimenter size Marx generators (20in. sparks) Cockroft Walton generators and of course lasers of all types. List goes on won't bore you with that.
Anyway, I first saw Lasersaber's large unique battery on youtube which he rated at 1 Amp or so output. I recreated the design to the "T". Same parts same supplier and I've read this thread but I don't see any recreation of his design that verifies the output. the reason I'm asking is because I've done some relatively extensive experimentation on the exact design using high salt concentrations of different types, both wet and dry. At this time I'm intentionally growing salt crystals over the cell. Just messing around with that. Anywhooo the output is nothing near 1 amp. I get 10's of milliamps unfortunately. I'm at a loss where his electrical current figure comes from. I'm hoping it's not based on a peak waveform generated by a joulthief. If that's the case the youtube vid is misleading.
Any thought would be appreciated.
Thank you
Dave
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@AL Electro
What size carbon rod are you using? You should be getting at least 500 mA if you are using a 4" by 12 inch carbon rod and a full roll of Mag ribbon. Did you watch this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx_wjlMO3OI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx_wjlMO3OI) Do not put it in oil if you are going for amps!
Hope this info helps.
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Wow fast response. I tried responding last night but kept getting an error message on the forum. I won't put them in oil lol...
Yes I watched all your videos and read this thread. I ordered the 3 X 10 inch rods from graphitestore.com. (End to end resistance of roughly .7 Ohm) They take almost one roll of the magnesium.
500 milliamps sounds great for the 4 inch. I'm scraching my head here... I just want to reproduce the results you obtained, or somehing close.
Far as the construction went, the windings are perfect with roughly 1/8th gap and I used a blue shop paper towel held with small strips of cotton tape and wrapped the coil nice and tight. The ends of the winding are held with a clear medical tape that's waterproof and perforated. I used this tape on a wound I had on my back recently and it's very sticky. After a hot shower it's sill hard to remove so figured it would be great for these batteries.
Here's a picture of one of the cells with the left over magnesium.
Thank you
Dave
Edit: Dang. Some reason this forum is different. I'll have to see why the image doesn't show up.
Here's a direct link. The cell is sitting on a DVD in case you were wondering what that disk was.
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo266/Kargons/IMG-20111103-00034.jpg
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Oh, by the way the open cell voltage is about 1.5-1.7V when dry. I tried different's salts for the saline water mix to see if that was the problem. Tested wet and dry. The salts were highly concentrated solutions of distilled water and either Kosher salt, Iodized or Epsom salt.
I applied only epsom salt to my second cell to just mess around. Epsom is pretty hygroscopic so would seem good for this design. I applied three coats and placed the cell in an oven between each coat. Maybe overkill but it seems to absorb moisture quickly.
Here's the picture (direct link) of the epsom salt crystals. Really wish I could get some amperage...... Tested continuity between magnesium and graphite. readings are 22.5M ohms dry (just measured) and sub K ohm (if I remember correctly) when wet.
Picture of cell: (direct link)
http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo266/Kargons/SanDiego-20111105-00044.jpg
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Try exploiting the Hall effect everyone. It might give everyone something to think about when making their air batteries.