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Author Topic: What's your opinion on "Consumption" as it relates to magnet only motors  (Read 8427 times)

Offline hoarybat

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  • Posts: 22
From wiki.answers.com :

Is there any successful magnetic motor?

"Yes, they are permanent magnet DC motors. They run on DC and have been here for decades. The idea of a motor powered by magnets has been also with us for generations now. These are called perpetual motion devices. Motors will always need energy to run. They can not derive their energy from a magnet unless it consumes that magnet."

Consumes the magnet?  I was under the impression after reading many posts here that if anyone of us were able to get a stator/rotor configuration to turn for hours/days/weeks/longer and that the forces of the colliding NEO mags were about equal (stator magnet power meeting rotor magnet power) that it should run for many years with little loss.  "Consumes" seems to me from above to imply prematurely killing the magnets.  Others have stated that you will only get a fraction of the energy back from what you have invested in the magnets should your motor actually work.  I know I have already invested plenty and 2 yrs. in this ongoing quest and as things are starting to look up design wise for me I am also concerned about this Consumption deal.  Appreciate your opinion on this and thanks in advance.

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Offline Gwandau

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hoarybat,

A permanent magnet can lift a car. And it takes a lot of energy to lift a car. Does this energy consume the magnet? No, it doesn't.

So the energy spent in keeping the car aloft for years, were does it come from? Nobody knows.

And just by heating the magnet a little, the attractive force dissappears.

Whatever academic science proposes, electromagnetism still is a total mystery to mankind.

Nobody knows why a permanent magnet attract a piece of iron.


There is today an academic belief that magnetic energy comes from the orbiting motion of electrons.
This belief is founded on the hastily proposed supposition that the observation is the cause.


I am fairly well acquainted with the spinning electron theory, which is based on observations of the electron behavior
in a saturated crystal lattice.

The actual observation is well founded, but the conclusion that this is the origin of magnetism is still just a wild unfounded theory.

The only thing researchers in the dynamics of magnetic domains have managed to observe is the fact that the north pole part
of the crystal lattice consists of unpaired electrons spinning in one direction and that the south pole part consists of
unpaired electrons spinning in the opposite direction.

But this doesn´t really prove that magnetism is derived from spinning electrons.
 
So contemporary science still doesn’t know what electromagnetism is, and fails to give a satisfactory explanation why a magnet creates attraction,
but there are some interesting theories, like David barclays relativity theory, proposing that magnets are not themselves the very origin of their attractive
and repulsive qualities, but merely acting as a sort of lens refracting an underlying field, where the appearance of attraction and repulsion is caused by
a decrease or increase of space created between the poles of the magnets.

And if magnets are just a sort of lenses defracting an underlying field, like David Barclay suggests, then it is all about tapping energy
from this underlying field, and the magnets themselves become secondary responses to the condition of field.

This way there would be no violation of the second law of thermodynamics regarding the invention of a magnetic motor.

Personally I believe this to be the actual case.

But the answer to this riddle is still hidden to mankind, which makes magnets such a intriguing white spot on the academic map.

Gwandau

Offline norman6538

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check out this pendulum that swings higher than its dropped point.
http://student.ccbcmd.edu/~norman/magwork.html

Norman


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Offline hoarybat

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Gwandau,  very informative but can you elaborate on whether you think this "Consumption" (Neo magnets losing strength) over a short time in a rotating magnet motor with no electricity supplied will happen?  I'm hearing about Eddy Currents heating them (neos) causing magnet strength loss.  That maybe an attraction motor (which I have now implemented) will reduce or eliminate Eddy Currents.  Are Eddy Currents only created on magnet motors which have outside electricity applied (electromagnet) to manipulate a pole to allow rotation or can Eddy Currents be created in Magnet only motors lacking added outside electricity as well.  Totally confused and ignorant about it obviously.  THanks

Offline Gwandau

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hoarybat,

eddy currents is a phenomenon created by any type of magnetic field moving along an eddy current inducing metal like copper or aluminum.

For example, if you drop a neo magnet in a copper tube, it will fall rather slow due to the created eddy fields when passing the surrounding copper surface.
Or just try sliding a neo along a steep copper plate. Its downhill slide will be considerably slowed down by the counteracting eddy fields created.

Regarding "consumption" (Neo magnets losing strength), magnets does not run down if their repulsive positions are alternated with attractive positions.

So if anyone made a magnet motor that way,  the magnets would not run down.

The following information is a quote from the Canadian inventor Alan L Francoeur:

"If the magnets are placed in a state of repulsion only against each other in a magnet motor system, I would agree they will lose their magnetism over time. 
If the magnets in the Perendev magnet motor are always in a state of repulsion only, then this would explain the magnet depletion problem.

However, if the magnets are placed in a working system so as to have repulsion forces on one half cycle and attraction forces on the other half cycle,
then the magnets will continue their  density unchanged as they will realigned themselves.

Thus my Impulsion motor.

I have a set of 36 neodymium rare earth magnets grade 35 mounted in my permanent magnet dynamo since 1987,
and I have found no difference in the density today as compared to the time I first ordered them in 1987.

Sincerely
Alan L Francoeur
ALF
Inventor
B.C. Canada

end of guote


The very reason that science has failed to nail down the physics behind magnetic energy seems to indicate
that we are confronted with a chapter in our understanding of physical reality that may change our very outlook
on reality. Keep in mind that all modern quantum physics is derived from old equations by guys like Bohr and Einstein,
with no real physical backup, and that quantum theory, since the discovery of zero point energy and the cavitation
phenomenon, has had some troublesome years to succeed with the incorporation of these discoveries into the quantum
theory.

Quantum theory may be a blind alley. As said before, I recommend anyone with an interest in paradigm shifting theory to read
David Barclay's ground braking relativity theory that discards all our present concepts of time, light, energy, magnetism and so forth.
http://www.gravitycontrol.org/unity-book.html

I expect mankind to take a great leap forward regarding this when the physics of magnetism is fully understood..

Gwandau

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Offline hoarybat

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Gwandau, very informative.  Lastly, when you mentioned about that balance between attractive and repulsive forces together not depleting the magnets, I don't have both in my setup.  I have a south Stator and north facing rotor magnets.  When the magnets go by the end of the stator it of course attempts to pull the magnets back and causes drag but it keeps going until the last magnet set hits it at which time it stops of course because I only have 1/4 of the magnets I need to complete the rotor circle so I can't be premature but in your opinion will this attraction only/then pullback force (still attraction) constant action deplete the magnets for I'm suspecting and hoping not.  Will await your feedback and thanks again in advance.

Offline Liberty

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  • Posts: 524
    • DynamaticMotors
From wiki.answers.com :

Is there any successful magnetic motor?

"Yes, they are permanent magnet DC motors. They run on DC and have been here for decades. The idea of a motor powered by magnets has been also with us for generations now. These are called perpetual motion devices. Motors will always need energy to run. They can not derive their energy from a magnet unless it consumes that magnet."

Consumes the magnet?  I was under the impression after reading many posts here that if anyone of us were able to get a stator/rotor configuration to turn for hours/days/weeks/longer and that the forces of the colliding NEO mags were about equal (stator magnet power meeting rotor magnet power) that it should run for many years with little loss.  "Consumes" seems to me from above to imply prematurely killing the magnets.  Others have stated that you will only get a fraction of the energy back from what you have invested in the magnets should your motor actually work.  I know I have already invested plenty and 2 yrs. in this ongoing quest and as things are starting to look up design wise for me I am also concerned about this Consumption deal.  Appreciate your opinion on this and thanks in advance.

Neodymium magnets do not get demagnetized or used up, unless the atomic structure of the atom changes.  They can become misaligned due to exposure to extremely strong magnetic fields (much stronger than the magnet) or being struck by a physical force such as a hammer or high velocity of repulsion magnetic fields or applied heat which frees the "pinning" material in the magnet that holds the magnetic particles in magnetic alignment.  When a magnet becomes misaligned, it results in a weakening of the external magnetic field.  The result is some of the magnetic particles favor aligning themselves with other near by particles, which is the nearest magnetic field to align themselves with. 

I have made several magnet motors that are power assisted.  The magnets remain as long as you don't subject them to misuse as stated above.

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Offline FatChance!!!

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"If the A are placed in a state of repulsion only against each other in a magnet motor system, I would agree they will lose their magnetism over time.

Sorry but this statement is not true when it comes to NdFeb magnets.

There are several cases of repelling systems where the magnets are not demagnetized.
E.g sliding doors, where the door float on repelled neo magnets, and they do this fine whitout demagnetizing.
Experimental rails where a train is floated on repelled magnets instead of supercooled electromagnets.
They don't demagnetize, it's just more difficult to control than using supercooled electromagnets.

Why? Well, simply because the Bmax (flux) of two neos is not enough to force any neos into it's Demagnetization area.
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/bhcurves.asp

You need something like 3-4 times the strength of a neomagnet to be in any risk. And most importantly, the applied field
must be aligned and forced through the magnet. This is not the same as forcing two magnets together where the fields
are deflected away and doesn't penetrate the magnet through on the depth.

Heating problems can be handled by using high temp neos. They have extremely high resistance to demagnetization.

Offline Gwandau

  • Sr. Member
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  • Posts: 363
Liberty and FatChance!!!,

your information seems well founded and is highly encouraging to all those of us who are into the quest of magnetic engines.

Still there are some information on the net telling us differently, like the link below, which emphasizes the rundown effects
on neodymium magnets in opposing configurations.

http://www.nuscam.com/perendev.htm

I would really appreciate your comment on this information, which seems to be quite different to your conclusions.

Gwandau




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Offline FatChance!!!

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  • Posts: 197
As long as there is no public magnet motor to see that runs down, I do no believe that
someone saying they have seen three magnet motors running is really telling the truth.
If the motor run on magnets alone but loose magnetism, that could be addressed by using
200 degree Celsius neos, grade EH, which has tremendous resistance to demagnetization.
And the distance and interaction between the magnets could be increased for less power
and this would decrease the risk of demagnetization due to lower flux levels being in use.

Offline hoarybat

  • Newbie
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  • Posts: 22
Great but will an all attraction motor which then having them pull away from the stator end which is trying to pull them back eventually run down?  The page below says:

"LAW 1: Magnets RECHARGE in attraction mode"

http://www.fdp.nu/zipper/default.asp

Rather interesting no?

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Offline mscoffman

  • Hero Member
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  • Posts: 1377
In my opinion neodynium magnets do not erase. But they
can loose *some* of their initial manufactured magnetic
field strength with use. And the sorted magnetic field
strength determines the position of the sticky spot in
an array of magnets. So small changes in sorted magnetic
field strength can cause large changes to device operation.

But this is the motor's problem, a design needs to have
adequate operating "margins" to continue working despite
normal component variance changes. And I don't think
this is so easily done.

Other materials besides neodynium *can* be erased. And that
erasure is tantamount to the unidirectional availability of energy
as in a discharge. This allows a device that "was" working with
neodymium magnets to be susceptible being replaced to
magnetic material that erases. The device therefore works for
awhile and then stops. And therefore the incorrect notion that
all magnets can be erased.

My feeling is that RF magnetic pulses of sufficient magnitude
could cause local heating of magnetic domains above the Currie
temperature but this is far would correspond to field strengths
and frequencies far above what magnets would normally
experience in standard use.

---

Also, my feeling is that the Perendev device was not a purely
magnetic construct.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline gyulasun

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Hi Folks,

Magnets demagnetization have been a topic here already, did some search, for I think useful info is 'buried' on that.

See these links:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2751.msg47490#msg47490
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3519.msg56537#msg56537
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3456.msg56445#msg56445

There is one more contribution worth noting by member Liberty:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4206.msg80162#msg80162

And unfortunately his notice has remained unanswered till now. Since then I have read elsewhere (I cannot recall where, unfortunately) that the 'flux lines' do not really move as much distance INSIDE the magnet material as they do at or away the outside of the surface, especially in repel mode.  And if there is little movements inside the magnet material, then there is little chance for eddy current heating in magnets that have conductive metal alloy components (practically ferrite/ceramic magnets are the exception for having metal components). 
And here connects Liberty's notice that because magnets are fully saturated, (this is WHY all permanent magnets have a relative permeability of between 1.06 to 1.2 or so), then flux surely finds high reluctance to change in their material.   

rgds,  Gyula

PS:  Of course I have personally found that old ferrite magnets can significantly change their original strength if treated by a strong Neo magnet but here we discuss mainly Neo magnets properties, don't we.  :)

PS2: The Perendev motor example does not count at all when mentioned as example for demagnatization because it has turned out to be total fraud. It never worked as the general public was told to work.

Offline luishan

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Offline e2matrix

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Liberty and FatChance!!!,

your information seems well founded and is highly encouraging to all those of us who are into the quest of magnetic engines.

Still there are some information on the net telling us differently, like the link below, which emphasizes the rundown effects
on neodymium magnets in opposing configurations.

http://www.nuscam.com/perendev.htm

I would really appreciate your comment on this information, which seems to be quite different to your conclusions.

Gwandau
Don't put too much weight on anything you read at nuscam.com as I know well the history of that site, why it was made and how it is now largely just a site with little maintenance that was eventually obtained after some legal battles by the person it was originally intended to harass.  While I know the current owner is a good researcher I believe he has largely left this web site in a way that will tend to confuse some things (for a reason) rather than be a good source of info.   Perendev however as I think others have mentioned was probably a scam.   
   Sounds like you have a project worth continuing even if the wear down issue did come up at some point. 

 

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