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Availbale Products, Material- and Service suppliers => Do It Yourself => Topic started by: z.monkey on May 27, 2010, 01:34:19 PM

Title: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 27, 2010, 01:34:19 PM
This is the conceptual proof of concept for the Diametrically Magnetized Alternator (DMA). This design is based on Diametrically Magnetized NIB Magnets (N42s). The Lego mock up is to explore the "Auto-Motoring" effect and also to explore the feasibility of using the "Auto-Motoring" effect to make an Alternator...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 27, 2010, 01:37:17 PM
At first estimate I thought this prototype might cost as much as $200 to build.  But I managed to scale down the unit and purchased the building materials for like $30.  It took a good 4 hours to cut the sheet metal and tubes.  Then also I had to shave about 5 mils off the "Music Wire" shafts.  Got a new way to do that with a file and a drill...

So anyway here is a shot of the assembly process...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 27, 2010, 01:37:58 PM
Here I have fabricated a prototype out of 1/16" aluminum sheeting, some aluminum tubes and steel rods for the axles. The NIB Magnets are K&J Part number RA2ADIA, which are diametrically magnetized. The NIB Magnets are epoxied to the steel shafts. Here is the datasheet on the magnets...
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RA2ADIA
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 27, 2010, 01:38:23 PM
The next step is to wind a coil that will go in "The Pinch". Diametrically magnetized magnets have an interesting characteristic when they are mounted parallel to each other. They do something called "auto-motoring". If you turn one magnet the other one will stay precisely aligned with the one that is being turned. So, we are going to exploit this concept and make an alternator using this "auto-motoring" concept. "The Pinch" is the area between the magnets. This is where intense rotating magnetic fields are. If we put a coil "In The Pinch" then we should be able to draw current off the rotating magnetic fields...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: e2matrix on May 27, 2010, 07:01:31 PM
Cool idea.  I recently learned about Lenz's law firsthand after dropping a neo-magnet down a copper tube and also an aluminum tube to see it fall very slowly in both of these.  I'm wondering if the aluminum side plates will act to resist or slow rotation of the magnets?   
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 27, 2010, 07:52:18 PM
Well, when I hook up the input shaft to my drill it doesn't seem to go very slow...

I guess I would have to build another structure out of plastic as a control set...

Its all in design right now, so it could go many different directions...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 28, 2010, 06:12:02 PM
So I have a finite space to put a coil.  I don't want the coil to touch either magnet.  Also I don't want the coil to have any ferrous material in it, so that it is not attracted to the magnets.  This melted relay offered to give its cover to make a bobbin for the Pinch Coil...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 28, 2010, 06:13:48 PM
I am using a #4 x 3/8" spacer for the center of the bobbin.  Then I cut a couple 3/4" squares from the relay cover plastic, and epoxied them together for the bobbin...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 28, 2010, 06:15:37 PM
Then I use some other hardware to make a winding jig to help stabilize the plastic bobbin while I am winding it.  I started here with red #26 magnet wire, but didn't have enough.  So I unwound the coil and started again with the green wire...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 28, 2010, 06:17:21 PM
This is the Pinch Coil after winding.  When taking the winding jig apart I broke one of the plastic side off, so I had to epoxy it again.  fortunately the coil didn't unwind, got lucky there...
 
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 28, 2010, 06:17:59 PM
Here is the finished pinch coil...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2010, 01:29:46 PM
So the green coil I wound on Friday is Too Fat!  Doh!

I made hasty measurements in the morning before work, and then built the coil in the few bits of spare time I could muster.  I was rushing, and forked up the coil.  I hate it when I do that...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2010, 01:34:31 PM
It is almost 1/8" too big.  So, well, guess were gonna do it again.  I still have some plastic from the relay cover.  So I'll build some new sides.  A found some aluminum tubing that I cut to 1/4" inch to be the core of the new bobbin.  Also I didn't glue the sides and the core together this time.  Instead I applied epoxy generously inside the coil a I was winding it.  This way the coil, the core and the sides are glued from the inside.  This makes it a composite coil...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2010, 01:36:54 PM
I am also using 1/4-20 hardware this time, so the inside diameter of the coil is larger.  The outside diameter stays the same, 3/4" because we still have that finite space we have to conform to...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2010, 01:39:28 PM
Now the coil fits in the pinch with around 1/32" (0.031") clearance on each side.  Good, finally fits, now we have to modify the mounting plates to secure the coil...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2010, 01:43:51 PM
OK, so we go and take the whole thing apart, again, so that we can make some more holes...

My sheet metal workin' skills are improving.  I am going to get a real center punch and a sheet metal nibbler today.  I was using a nail and a hammer to make my pilot punches, but have found that the accuracy of a random nail is not very good.  Also the nail get flattened after a few punches.  So gonna get some new tools for accuracies sake...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2010, 01:48:13 PM
I'm gonna use a single tie wrap to secure the coil for now, just testing.  I modified my Lamp Load Pedestal to accept the Dia. Mag. Alternator.  Then put the DMA back together and mounted it on the Lamp Load Pedestal.  I attach my Drill to the input shaft to provide power to the DMA.  The initial test gave a little over 1 Volt AC loaded with a 10 watt bulb.  Not very much voltage, but good for the initial test...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2010, 02:06:37 PM
After thinking about the performance for a day or so I think that the symmetry of the pinch coils is wrong.  Also I am starting to think we need a ferrous slug as a core on the pinch coil.  e2matrix suggested that the aluminum may be impeding the magnetic performance, so maybe it is time to pick a better core material.  The magnets are rollers, so the symmetry of the coil should be more rectangular.  By adding a ferrous material in the core I am going to need a better way to mount the coil, a tie wrap isn't going to do it.  Of course this means I am going to need to build new mounting plates.  Hopefully with a new Center Punch and a Nibbler I can get better looking more precise mounting plates...

Off to the hardware store...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 01, 2010, 02:26:13 AM
Yesterday I did some brainstorming and I think the symmetry of the
coil is wrong, it should be a long, thin rectangle.  Then also I think I
need a ferrous core, like soft iron, which will make a focal point for
the magnetic forces in the coil.  But the biggest revelation, which came
at the extreme exertion I suffered today, is the "auto-motoring" magnet
is canceling the electric field.  This is why were only getting a punky
signal out of that Mutha-Forker...  Think about how a real alternator
works.  Then think of the commutator in there being replaced by a
Diametrically Magnetized Thick Ring Magnet (DMTRM) LOL!...

So, what I am trying to do now is take a single magnet, an put a field
coil next to it.  Then add another 180 degrees opposite.  Then if I get
the expected results, a 2 phase alternator, then I can add another 2
field coils offset 90 degrees from the first.  This way it's a 4 phase
alternator.  There is the sine and arcsine pair, then there is the cosine
and arccosine pair...


I'm One Upping Tesla...
His is only three phase...

90 Degree AC Phases, LMFAO!  BAM!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 01, 2010, 11:58:38 PM
My "revelation" under duress didn't pan out.  The "auto-motoring" magnet is helping.  I took the "auto-motoring" magnet off the DMA assembly and the voltage was half of when both magnets are there.  So, this means that its the symmetry of the Pinch Coil which is the problem.  The DMA produced 0.34 Volts AC when the "auto-motoring" magnet is removed.  Then I put the "auto-motoring" magnet back in the DMA assembly and the Voltage jumped up to 0.67 Volts AC.  The peak I measured a few days ago was a little over 1 Volt AC.  NIB Magnets have an initial break in period when they are first put in use, and this is what the drop in voltage might be.  When the NIB Magnets are first put under regular stress they will loose a fraction of their strength, and I am assuming that this is the reason the voltage went down after some testing.  They should be stabilized now...

I'm drawing a new mounting plate now.  There will be cutouts in the plate to accommodate the field coils, and hold them rigidly with the plate providing the critical clearances between the magnets and the field coils.  This way the field coils can be changed without having to take apart the magnet assembly.  The new field coils are in design also.  I got some 3/16" square steel stock.  So the new cores will be 3/16" square by about 3/4" long.  Same 1/32" plastic sides as on the first two coils.  I may change the thickness of the core material depending on machining requirements.  Then I'll have to make some sort of freaky, weird, magnetic jig to wind them because I don't have a hole for an axle on this one...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 02, 2010, 06:21:16 AM
Interesting work here.

Are those calipers made by Centek or some similar sounding brand available at Harbor Freight?

I has some that looked similar, they were enormously buggy! ..the mechanical variety from the same company is a much better alternative.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 02, 2010, 05:22:50 PM
Are those calipers made by Centek or some similar sounding brand available at Harbor Freight?
Yes, they are from Harbor Freight.  No, not buggy.  I really would rather have a Starrett (American Made) like the fancy ones I have at work.  Likewise with all my tools, mostly Craftsman, I prefer American made tools.  But we need to look at reality here.  I'm trying to invent stuff literally with no budget.  I use scraps and junk when I can, so when I needs a tool and ain't got much bux I goto Harbor Freight.  I am really impressed with these cheap Chinese tools.  Like, for instance, I needed a 1/2" Break Over Bar for workin' on the Truk, $10 @ Harbor Freight, $25 @ Autozone.  That's $15 I can use for beer and cheezeburgerz...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Sprocket on June 02, 2010, 05:58:11 PM
Chinese merchandise seems to be following the same path that Japanese stuff did after the war - real crap initially, today their quality is second-to-none.  Today it's in-vogue to poo-poo chinese products, but give it a few short years...

As an aside, recently I almost bought a 220V pure-sine inverter from an eBay advertiser (PowerJack) who makes a big deal on their web-site of rubbishing the Chinese component quality & manufacturing process;

http://cgi.ebay.com/5000W-50A-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-12v-DC-240v-AC-/300348620278?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45ee2c3df6 (http://cgi.ebay.com/5000W-50A-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-12v-DC-240v-AC-/300348620278?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_Boat_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45ee2c3df6)

As I said, I almost took the bait until I accidently googled this scholarly article from an EE who bought one of their inverters, had it blow up on him within hours of plugging it in (on no load!) and was horrified with what he discovered of the superior Taiwanese product, particularly the design itself;

http://www.ludens.cl/Electron/chinverter/chinverter.html (http://www.ludens.cl/Electron/chinverter/chinverter.html)

Very interesting read though, and sorry for diverging from the topic being discussed here... 
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: jadaro2600 on June 02, 2010, 07:28:34 PM
Yes, they are from Harbor Freight.  No, not buggy.  I really would rather have a Starrett (American Made) like the fancy ones I have at work.  Likewise with all my tools, mostly Craftsman, I prefer American made tools.  But we need to look at reality here.  I'm trying to invent stuff literally with no budget.  I use scraps and junk when I can, so when I needs a tool and ain't got much bux I goto Harbor Freight.  I am really impressed with these cheap Chinese tools.  Like, for instance, I needed a 1/2" Break Over Bar for workin' on the Truk, $10 @ Harbor Freight, $25 @ Autozone.  That's $15 I can use for beer and cheezeburgerz...

Yes, understood.  I've a machining diploma, cnc certificate, etc.  I've used many measuring tools, but currently have no job, I switched my major to something which doesn't kill my injured back.

I take things apart too.  Many things recently, 17 flat-bed scanners for cheap froma thrift store, and salvaged all the nice CCFLs and their driver boards.  Only one bulb was bad. Stainless steel bars from them; plastic gears and belts galore, stepper motors too, and some nice plate glass with sanded edges. Just need to find a place to recycle the 65 pounds of case plastic.

I actually plan to use off of these components for Art, they will make interesting sculptures, etc, the glass may come in handy too if I use it for a canvas. 
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 02, 2010, 07:42:39 PM
Sprocket,

Caveat Emptor, Latin for let the buyer beware...  Sad but true...

I've been burned with import electronics as well.  The review that EE gave the inverter was awesome.  Ripped that thing to shreds.  But is goes to show what people try and pass as good stuff...

Jadaro,
I love salvage, and scrap.  A lot of things that I have built come from tech scraps...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: TechStuf on June 02, 2010, 08:25:07 PM
Z.Monkey, hands on, good stuff.

Do a uspto pat number search for:

5929732

Read carefully, notice what is written versus what is shown.


.....Have fun


TS
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 02, 2010, 09:37:22 PM
Here's that patent on Wiki Patents...
http://www.wikipatents.com/US-Patent-5929732/apparatus-and-method-for-amplifying-a-magnetic-beam/Page-5

Very interesting, and I noticed that the Assignee is Lockheed, that fits...

Mine don't do that...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: TechStuf on June 02, 2010, 10:23:30 PM

As long as the only unopposed magnet in the system is a variable frequency AC electromagnet....one can do some interesting things.  The patent description reveals much more than the simplified schematics.


TS
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: mscoffman on June 02, 2010, 11:37:39 PM

...
NIB Magnets have an initial break in period when they are first put in use, and this is what the drop in voltage might be.  When the NIB Magnets are first put under regular stress they will loose a fraction of their strength, and I am assuming that this is the reason the voltage went down after some testing.
...


@z.monkey

I believe this is correct; a kind of an "infant mortality" of of few of the
magnetic domains that are not full strength. But you see, if one had a
machine whose operation that was highly tuned to specific magnetic field
strength configuration a small variation like this might cause the machine
to cease functioning, then people would claim "magnet erasure", which
is not really the case.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 03, 2010, 01:00:56 AM
As long as the only unopposed magnet in the system is a variable frequency AC electromagnet....one can do some interesting things. 
You know what this looks like?  Hmm..  Hmmm...  Do ya?
CRT!  An Electron Gun and the Raster and Caster field coils...   Hmmmm...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 03, 2010, 01:19:16 AM
I believe this is correct; a kind of an "infant mortality" of of few of the
magnetic domains that are not full strength.
Its in the magnet data sheets...
Heat will degrade the NIB Magnets...
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/neomaginfo.asp
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: e2matrix on June 03, 2010, 08:19:12 PM
That patent has Boyd Bushman on it.  You know who he is right?  I think he is retired from LM and you can find several youtube's where he is interviewed about anti-gravity.  Some of the ones I've watched are very interesting.  He's definitely a mag field guru  ;)
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: TechStuf on June 03, 2010, 09:52:29 PM

Bushman might even be surprised at some of what's out there...

http://www.rense.com/general54/babalc.htm


MR

Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 19, 2010, 02:52:01 AM
Teaser...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Mk1 on June 19, 2010, 03:24:16 AM
@all

I don't think using metal even aluminum is a good idea , the eddy current will slow it down to a stop ...

I made a drawing for you guys , good luck with your project ...

Mark
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 19, 2010, 03:28:24 AM
DiaMag Rox!!1
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 19, 2010, 12:58:46 PM
I don't think using metal even  is a good idea , the eddy current will slow it down to a stop ...
Lets see.  The alternator in my Japanese Truk has an aluminum alternator housing.  It puts out 120 Amps.  Just about every alternator that I can remember has either a steel or aluminum case, they all seemed to work good.  I don't follow you with the eddy current stuff.  Now that I am thinking about it just about every motor, generator, alternator I have ever seen has a metal case, except maybe the simple little classroom demonstration models.  We'll look at the numbers when I am in test...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: mscoffman on June 19, 2010, 09:27:48 PM
Lets see.  The alternator in my Japanese Truk has an aluminum alternator housing.  It puts out 120 Amps.  Just about every alternator that I can remember has either a steel or aluminum case, they all seemed to work good.  I don't follow you with the eddy current stuff.  Now that I am thinking about it just about every motor, generator, alternator I have ever seen has a metal case, except maybe the simple little classroom demonstration models.  We'll look at the numbers when I am in test...

No, z.monkey the automobile alternator has an internal iron
armature (magnetic circuit) for magnetic flux lines. Only free
energy stuff has open magnetic field lines, and that stuff
won't sell. You don't design equipment with open magnetic
field lines unless you have something to communicate.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 19, 2010, 09:42:13 PM
I think there is a disparity of understanding here...

I'm building an alternator..  Not going for "Free" energy...

Ur, uh, well not entirely correct.  Um, the device that I am building is an energy
converter.  It is converting mechanical energy into electrical energy.  The idea
is to build an efficient energy converter, then the wind is going to provide the
"Open System" energy and that is the free part...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Mk1 on June 20, 2010, 12:20:40 AM
@zmonkey

I guess i will have to make a movie to show how that is important , i know you don't want to use your truck engine to turn those magnet , it works for the alternator , since the horse power is enough move the car and the alternator .

Mark
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 30, 2010, 01:04:31 AM
Diamag 2,
As in 2 Phase (180 degrees)...
This one was a bit more challenging in design, fabrication, and assembly.
I have a small mill at work which was invaluable for the inductor slots.
The inductors have iron core this time.  Also increase the strength of
the frame assembly, moved up to #10 hardware, and used a thick wall
aluminum tubing that I had to tap out.  So the spacers act as nuts, or
standoffs, and increase the rigidity.  I had some trouble with 2 different
sized magnets and the shaft spacing.  The two Automotoring magnets
are 5/8" long, and the Driver (Center) magnet is 3/4" long.  So I had to
make some customer spacers to keep the bearings seated.  I have to
mount and wire the DMA2, then we can test...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 30, 2010, 01:02:38 PM
Its an improvement.  I got 2.08 Volts AC this time loaded with a 10 watt bulb...
I used the same wire, 26 gauge magnet wire.  I think its a little large.
I'm gonna try rewinding the coils with 30 gauge wire and give it another test...
The small scale of the of the cores doesn't give me enough room to put
the necessary windings in there.  I need to measure the current and that
should give me an idea of what we can expect when we can squish bigger
coils in there.  Invention is a slow process, but here I think I have made good
progress, I more that doubled the voltage this time...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 07, 2010, 02:10:49 AM
@Mk1, I'm gonna incorporate your idea...

I like the idea of attraction canceling.  Also the iron is a flux conduit.
But, I want a super compact size.  So I am adding blocks between the magnets
and also on the ends.  This is a two phase system, and there are three magnets,
so altogether we need 4 blocks, in a radial arrangement.  The end plates keep
everything suspended with nice, tight clearances...

These are the Diamag 3 end plates.  The new core blocks are 1/2 inch square,
the last cores (Diamag2) were 3/16 inch square.  I reoriented the structural
hardware so that I can maximize my coil space.  This change makes it possible
to put eight times as many windings on the new cores.  So, roundabout 2 VAC
on the last attempt and looking for around 16 VAC on this attempt...

I was more critical about dimensional tolerances on this one.  It took me a full
day to draw this one, and another day to etch the dimensions into the metal.
Then today it took around 6 hours in the machine shop to fabricate.  So, 3 days
for 16 VAC?  ForkYeah!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Mk1 on July 07, 2010, 02:29:32 AM
@Z


Nice !

I personally would use a e core and modifies it one layer at a time to fit the magnets even tying to make the hole round .

http://www.isomatic.co.uk/ecoretransformers.htm

find a old laminate layer transformer ...


But keep the good work ! :)   
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 07, 2010, 02:47:06 AM
Mk1,

I have been thinking about using a closed magnetic loop system...

But there are a couple of caveats.  I need to incorporate industrial
bearings, and eventually there will be another two phases perpendicular
to the existing two...

Need Mo Betta Toolz...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 08, 2010, 02:48:47 AM
New core blocks, 0.5 inch by 0.5 inch and 0.870 +/- 0.01 inch...
The Z Axis tolerances were a lot more difficult.  I botched a couple
of blocks drilling the hole in them.  First get the block square and
plumb, then drill the hole.  Don't try and punch one side part way
and then reposition the part and find the original hole.  It just doesn't
work.  After working out the Z Axis idiosyncrasies, then I managed to
get the core blocks to fit.  Also using countersunk screws in the blocks
so there is no interference in the windings...
 
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 09, 2010, 01:27:40 PM
OK, I got the mechanical parts assembled, with some caveats...

I was banking on the "Auto-Motoring" aspect.  Well, when we add the large blocks of steel between the magnets it tends to focus the lines of force through the blocks.  The auto-motoring still occurs but only at the very end of the 180 degree turn (flipping the poles).  When the magnets are side by side the auto-motoring magnet motors very smoothly (except for a little crossover distortion) with the driver magnet.  So with large cores in there, which are necessary for the coils, we can't rely on auto motoring, and are going to have to fall back to using gears.

A three gear setup will turn the magnets in the same way that they would auto-motor.  While this is a simple change it requires a lot of rework.  The shafts have to be lengthened to accommodate the gears.  I have to find the right size gears, and if not may need to build new end plates to accommodate the kind of gears that I can find.  Chances are that I won't be able to find the right size gear with two different size shaft holes.  So this brings up another topic which is using equal size magnets in all three positions.

Currently I have a 3/4 inch outside diameter driver magnet and the auto-motoring magnets are 5/8 inch.  The shaft on the driver is 1/4 inch, and the shaft on the auto-motoring magnet is 1/8 inch.  This means I need two different shaft sizes and two different bearing sizes.  This is problematic, in that there is a lot of extra re-calculating to design and build the end plates.  So by using equal magnets in all three positions I can streamline the redesign process.

Also, still not happy with my dimensional tolerances.  You don't really see the errors until you assemble it.  Then the lines don't quite go parallel, or its a bit twisted.  Just something that makes it look "off".  With this next set of plates I am have some mechanical assistance in making the measurements, hopefully.  I'm going to get a Bitmoore Vice to help with the positioning.  These things are neat, check it out...

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-inch-drill-press-milling-vise-94276.html

Then, at the end of the assembly process, I managed to drop the assembly on its corner (bottom picture) and bent it.  At the moment I am not worried about correcting it.  This one is never going to get wound.  Its got too many errors.  I need to lengthen the shafts to add gears.  Also need to change the magnet and shaft sizes for the outer (new name instead of auto-motoring) magnets.  This requires that I design and fabricate new end plates.  I can salvage the core blocks and structural hardware because the length of the assembly can stay the same.

Oh, also, forgot to mention the banana end plate.  When I had add the cores and magnets on only one end plate it curled like a banana.  I was able to stretch in back by adding the second end plate.  So, anyway, gonna need thicker end plates.  These magnets have big forces, and are not easy to work with, especially three at once.  The larger blocks helped this process.  The magnets are gonna stick to the largest ferrous mass they can find, in this case the core blocks.  This was easier with the core blocks in close proximity.  Before, on Diamag 2, the screws had wider clearances, which put the magnets further away from the target holes, more difficult to stab...

So, anyway, feeling sorta melancholy about this right now.  It was big work to get here, and it looks like there is bigger work on the horizon.  I'm just forkin' glad its Friday...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 21, 2010, 12:14:54 PM
Mk1, I'm gonna integrate the transformer lamination idea also...

But, although I have plenty of large transformers, there are none that would incorporate my design cleanly.  So what to do?  DIY, duh.  Look at the stack of Iron sheets below.  It's taken two days to cut the laminations so far, and their still solid.  Gonna need lots of holes too...

I have been picking holes in my older designs (Diamag 3).  I think I can still get the automotoring to work, but there needs to be a lot more Iron in the core.  On Diamag 3 the magnets are attracted to the little (1/2 inch) blocks.  So, even with only one magnet in there it is motoring on the blocks, meaning the poles are attracted to the metal, and want to stay oriented that way.  This makes the shaft hard to turn, unnecessary polarization.  The magnets need that attraction all the way around their path, so the core needs to completely surround the magnets.  This adds flux paths between the magnets, and I am hoping that it will allow them the automotor again.

I really do not want to put gears on this thing.  You will be shocked at the pricing.  Tiny little gears, off the shelf, are like $20 each.  Custom gears, made to order, in small quantities are like $100 each.  So, yeah, don't wanna put gears on it if I don't have to...

So, back to the holes.  Got some new toys.  I picked up the Bitmoore Vice and a Drill Press at Harbor Freight.  Also got a drill index with 115 bits.  I am still cutting laminations and bearing plates.  The plan is to stack up all the laminations and bearing plates, in order, and cut the main holes all at once.  This way we can get superior alignment and squareness.  I don't see any rigidity problems with a solid Iron core, but we want to make sure it all comes together nice and square.  So I plan on cutting tooling holes in the stack first.  Then remove the stack from the vice, and bolt it all together with countersinking screws in a piece of wood from the back side.  The area where the tooling holes are will later be removed for the winding slots.  Then after we drill all the pilot holes in the stack we can work on each individual layer to make the large holes for the magnets (1.125 inch) and the bearing plates (0.625 inch), and the winding slots.

The bearing plates will be 1.25 inches square and hold the individual magnets.  In this new design the bearing plates allow each magnet to be removed without disturbing the rest of the assembly.  On the Diamag 3 design once you put the windings on it, there is no more reworking.  You would have to unwind the coils to take it apart, not user friendly.  So on the new one (Diamag 6) each magnet and shaft have their own set of bearing plates.  They also have new bearings.  Before I was using punky little bearings from Mike's Hobbies.  The ball bearings are like 1/32 inch, punky...  The new bearings are a Dayton part, from Grainger, and a load rated at 335 pounds, so no problems there.  New magnets also, moving up to a 1 inch diameter Neo-Dia-Mag, K&J Magnetics part number RX04X0DIA...

So, my previous prediction of bigger work on the horizon is true.  Cutting those steel plates is a lot of work.  I'm sawing straighter lines now anyway...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Mk1 on July 22, 2010, 01:52:33 AM
@Z

Nice tools ! I like the way you work !

Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 22, 2010, 02:00:22 AM
Diamag 6
The Stack

I had to cut a few more plates this morning.  Then I was able to assemble "The Stack".  I used clamping on three axis' to hold the stack of plates still while I drilled the tooling holes.  1/4-20 countersunk machine screws hold all the plates together in the Z axis for the precision cuts.  The X axis is held by the machine vice.  I am going to let the combination secure the Y axis, but if it doesn't feel right I'll add the large wood clamp also.

Also, clearance, just barely enough.  I was worried about the Z axis clearance between the drill bit, in the resting position, and the top of the stack.  I have about 3/16 inch.  really close.  My original plan would not have worked.  I realized it was a problem when I assembled the drill press and put the Bitmoore vice on it...

So, you know, spin control...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Charlie_V on July 23, 2010, 04:04:46 AM
I find that if the coil diameter matches close to the diameter of the magnet, you'll get the most voltage per change. Smaller wire doesn't always help either (especially for a generator) since the smaller wire size greatly increases the wire resistance. 

I looked at the magnet focusing patent, that's just a form of halbech array.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 23, 2010, 12:05:34 PM
The core size is equal to the magnet diameter now, 1 inch.

This idea came about after studying axial flux alternators.  There are magnets on both sides of the coils.  A traditional alternator only has a magnet on the inside of the coils, nothing on the outside.  Then also I was curious about the diametrically magnetized magnets.  So trying to build a simple representation of the idea I simplified and miniaturized the concept and here we are.  It is relatively simple compared to either a automotive alternator or a axial flux alternator, but the same concept.  I really have never looked into a Halbeck Array, need to give it a look see...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Charlie_V on July 23, 2010, 02:51:58 PM
Halbech arrays just increase the magnetic field in one direction and suppress the field in another.  So you can make the north pole almost double in strength while reducing the south pole to almost nothing.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: giantkiller on July 24, 2010, 06:55:47 PM
An addendum:
The diamagnetic configuration aligns this config with magnetic shearing, same as Bedini.
The Patent 5,929,732 has its poles opposite side of the axis instead of on the opposite sides of the diameter or cylinder.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 26, 2010, 01:08:43 PM
I guess that adds some credence to my design.  LOL!

Here's is a shot right before the first cut.
I am really happy with the Bitmoore vise.
My dimensional tolerances are better than ever...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 30, 2010, 01:34:04 PM
I made a lot of holes this week.  Gonna make some more too...

This is the stack with a lot of pilot holes in it.  The center three holes are for the magnets, and will get bored out to 1.125 inches.  The piece of wood with the bolts sticking out of it is the jig for boring the large holes.  I'll take each plate from the stack and bolt it to the jig.  Then clamp the jig in a vise.  Then use a uni-bit to widen to 1/4 inch pilot holes to 1.125 inches.  Then we have two more groups of holes for the bearing plates and for the stiffeners / mounting holes.  The bearing plates are designed to use 10-32 hardware (3/16 inch holes) and are on the perimeter of the magnet holes.  The stiffener and mounting holes use 1/4-20 hardware (1/4 inch holes) and are around the edge of the stack.  At the bottom of the picture are the new neo-dia-mags.  These are going to stay in their package, far away from the machine area until I am ready to do the final assembly.

I have had a problem with the neo-dia-mags picking up the machine dust and I cannot remove all of it.  I don't want the machine dust contaminating the rotating parts.  The plan is to finish machining the stack, and then coat the plates with a "laminate", in this case some clear epoxy spray paint I think will do it.  In addition to separating the plates the laminate is to seal the steel plates so they don't rust, and to cut down on the machine dust contamination.  The idea is to get all the parts into a finished state and then assemble the magnetic parts in a clean area which is far away from the machine shop.  I am still probably a week away from the final assembly.

This version is considerably more work and expense than I had planned.  I had estimated that to build an alternator like this would cost $200.  The magnets (3) for this version were $45, the bearings (6) were $60, the steel sheets (2.5) were about $20, and then the tooling cost (drill press, Bitmoore vise, drill index, and hand drill batteries) was around $360.  But labor is by far the greatest expense.  I have spent two weeks working on it so far, and its going to take another week, at least...

At least I'm not bored, hehe, get bored, lol, uulgh...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Mk1 on July 30, 2010, 01:41:31 PM
@Z

Nice work man !

I think however that you will find your self wishing for bigger pieces of metal there is not much room for the coil , once the magnets are in the core it self is a magnet , you can put the away a bit to have more wire.

But we will see , great work again!

Mark
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on August 11, 2010, 01:56:30 AM
Thx Mk1!

This is boring...  hehe...

Finally got back to the metal shop today.  I had built a jig to bore the holes around 10 days ago.  Basically just a 2x4 that I planned to squeeze in the jaws of the Workmate.  So I experienced some slippage trying to bore the  magnet holes.  So I revised the jig to be a surface clamped device so that it would have support from the bottom.  The first two steel plates are a little funny, but after I got the jig stabilized, and a process figured out, then I starting boring some nice holes.  I have a couple extra plates in the stack.  I can adjust the spacing between the plates to use fewer plates and increase the magnetic conductivity between the plates until it is optimum.  I can adjust the holes as needed with the high speed micro grinder thingy...

Here are a few pics of the day...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on August 13, 2010, 12:58:25 AM
The boring part is over...

Now moving on to cutting the slots for the windings...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on August 23, 2010, 01:03:16 PM
This weekend was stellar.  Zen and the art of cutting steel.  Man it was hot too.  I mean the outside temperature, 104 F on Sunday.  I finished fitting the plates last Friday, and have been getting ready to cut the slots.  Each vertical slot took about 20 minutes to cut with a hacksaw.  Once I got these 8 cuts in I can take apart the stack and to the rout in the bottom of the slots.

This rout is the main reason I got the Bitmoore Vise.  I am using a 1/8 inch end/side mill to make the rout.  I take each individual plate and bolt it on the the large hole tooling jig that I used to bore the large diameter holes.  Then put the jig in the Bitmoore Vise.  We are doing this on the drill press, so the table is the Z Axis.  So I position the table to where the mill is just below the bottom of the plate, cutting into the wood a little.  Lock the table, Lock the Vise, tension the X and Y adjustment tables, then rout the slot.  I am still getting used to the process.  If you don't have all the things locked and tensioned the table will do funny things when you start to cut.  Also cutting to fast causes tension on the table and the spindle and the mill goes in funny directions.  But, once I figured out the quirks, then I started cutting some decent routs.  I am scratching a line in the steel with an hardened scribe, so the line is permanent.  I can cut right down the line, and leave the line there, within a few mils...

You can see below the first plate routs are kinda curvy.  This is moving too fast, and not knowing the quirks.  This is an outer plate, so that area will be filed down to form a chase for the wire.  From a side view the core will look like a square with round chamfered corners.  I don't want the windings on corners.  I am thinking about getting a radiused mill to do these chamfers.  Also, someday, I would like to do this whole operation on a mill.  An automated 3 Axis Mill could probably cut one of these plates in an hour, where it takes me weeks to do it with hand tools.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on September 05, 2010, 04:22:26 AM
Got Slots?
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 03, 2010, 06:58:26 AM
OK, gotta have a way to hold this thing down when I put the torque to it...

I fabricated this mounting plate to hold everything together...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 04, 2010, 02:00:07 AM
Replicators...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: shylo on October 10, 2010, 12:27:45 PM
Hi still waitng for next installement......looks like a great project..........excellent workmanship...patiently waiting.....shylo
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 18, 2010, 01:52:58 AM
Howdy Shylo,

Thank you for your praise and your patients.  This project has been a mountain of work.  I think I am downclimbing the back side now.  This weekend I have been deburring the the alternator plates.  These are steel, so they have lots of little, extremely sharp bits of metal here and there that need to be filed off.  Machining the steel plates with a mill creates flake like shards that get rolled up into these microscopic steel splinters from Hell.  I probably have several thousand permanently embedded in my fingers.  If they are large enough to get a tweezers tips on them I can pull them out.  But some are so small that I have to wait for the exfoliation process of my skin to get them out.  Fun fun...

So, now that I have the alternator plates deburred I can laminate the plates, and then start the assembly process.  I'm using a clear polyurethane paint for the "lamination".  I think I can build up several coats to get maybe 5 mils of space between the plates.  This is something that needs to be experimented with.  What is the optimum plate spacing?  Is there a maximum limit?  Could plate spacing make the difference between a normal alternator, and something exhibiting overunity?  Well, were gonna do about a thousand experiments to figure that out...

Here are the alternator plates in the laminating process...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: mscoffman on October 18, 2010, 05:10:16 PM
So, now that I have the alternator plates deburred I can laminate the plates, and then start the assembly process.  I'm using a clear polyurethane paint for the "lamination".  I think I can build up several coats to get maybe 5 mils of space between the plates.  This is something that needs to be experimented with.  What is the optimum plate spacing?  Is there a maximum limit?  Could plate spacing make the difference between a normal alternator, and something exhibiting overunity?  Well, were gonna do about a thousand experiments to figure that out...

Here are the alternator plates in the laminating process...

@z.monkey

The optimal spacing is the minimum thickness coating of the insulation
that truly insulates the plates electrically. I would suggest that you
lightly deburr them and then rinse in a highly concentrated alcohol
solution. Then apply the coating. Stack two plates together and try
to measure the resistance between the plates from along their edges.
- no conduction means; all is well. Once you tighthen them into a
stack you may want to try the conductance test again but this time
with your utility voltage and a lamp. This will substitute for a HV
insulation test. If you get conductance simply take them apart
and reapply the coating. Since you are not currently doing RF
radio frequency work, the coating thickness is primarily to stop
conductance, while diluting magnetic characteristics of the core as
little as possible. No, It is not correct to look at the spacing as implying
a frequency of some type. It is to prevent spinning eddy currents
above a particular size. Yes, suppression of eddy currents contributes
to efficiency which is why it is used in LF AC motors. In HF AC, ferrite
binder materials insulate each particle of metal from the other, impling
3D eddy current suppression.

Your work is excellent mechanical work by the way.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 19, 2010, 01:19:02 PM
Your work is excellent mechanical work by the way.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Thanks Mark,

I've been developing my machine skills over the summer, and its really starting to pay off.  Electric currents create magnetic fields, and we want to isolate the plates to prevent these stray currents from interfering with the intended flux pathways.  I do have a little problem there, there are 24 steel bolts that go all the way through the plates.  Uh, I guess I could use Nylon hardware.  And we have some more experimenting to do there...

The stray eddy current situation is somewhat analogous to trace impedance on a printed circuit board.  High speed digital design deals with signals on boards that run up into gigahertz frequencies these days.  To keep those signals clean your traces need to be tightly coupled to a reference plane, like 5 mils tight.  The problem with the eddy currents in the core material is similar in that these eddy currents can be considered to be noise, and we want to eliminate that noise, and isolation is the answer...

Testing the plate isolation is no problem.  I have the equipment already, and we can test it at various frequencies, both mechanically and electrically.  There will be an optimum operating frequency determined by the mechanical construct which, similar to audio resonant frequency, will result in the most efficient operation.  We have to figure out that frequency.  It will be somewhere from 50 to 400 Hertz.  We can use a variable speed motor and a tachometer to toy with the mechanical frequency.  50 Hertz would be 3000 RPM, and 400 Hertz would be 24000 RPM.  The bearings are rated up to 36000 RPM.

The next step is building the winding jig.  I have a tight space for the coils, and part of that space is open sided.  So I need to build a structure that can support the open sides.  I'll use a set of keepers, and glue the coil together so it will hold its form.  Then I need to modify the bearing plates to fit both the mounting plate, and the coils, and then we can assemble...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 20, 2010, 03:41:53 AM
Cleaned everyone with Isopropanol...

Laminating now.  This stuff is stinky...

I'll be glad when this is done...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 21, 2010, 03:32:42 AM
OK, now wrapping up the laminating process...

I am cutting the Winding Jig Blocks while I wait for the laminations to dry.
Then there is a pic of the cut Winding Jig Blocks.  The 4" trim saw was very
helpful in the process...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 21, 2010, 01:35:22 PM
The finished stack thickness is 1.088 inches.  Before laminating the stack was 0.939 inches.  So, that works out to be about 9 mils isolation between each plate +/- 1 mils for inconsistencies.  The "lamination" paint that I picked first made very thin coatings, and I used the whole can on the top side.  The second can was a different source, and was a much thicker coating.  I only needed to apply two coats to the back side.  Then I shot the top side one more time.

Assembling the winding jig now...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 21, 2010, 06:01:55 PM
Here I am marking the holes to cut on the winding jig, and fitting the winding jig to the stack.  Next I need to fabricate the coil keepers.  Also I need to make the end pieces for the winding jig.  The end pieces will use a 1/2 inch threaded rod for an axle to allow the winding jig to spin.  Then I'll make a crank with another stick of wood, another piece of the threaded rod, and a 1 inch dowel as a handle.

I think I can see light up ahead in this tunnel...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on October 22, 2010, 01:49:06 AM
Excellent!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: shylo on October 22, 2010, 02:25:37 AM
Very Nice work,....looking forward to see,..how it preforms....and produce's power..........pretty much the same thing.............I think you might have a portion that locks up on you though,......I hope I'm wrong................shylo
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 25, 2010, 02:17:45 AM
Today I fabricated the Winding Jig End Plates, and then built the rest of the Winding Jig.  Now we have to get everything square, glue in the coil keepers, and then torque everything down before we wind the coils...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 27, 2010, 07:04:32 PM
OK, this is the winding process.  I had a couple friends help with the winding process because I need more than two hands to do this.  One was the glue man, and managed the epoxy coating on the windings.  The other was there to count the windings.  It took a good three hours to wind the two coils.  They each have approximately 1060 turns.  I used a long cure epoxy (60 minutes) so that we would have extra working time.  I have had problems with the epoxy curing before I got the coil wound before, and didn't want that to happen here.  This was a rather sloppy process, and we had a few SNAFUs where we had to unwind part of the coil, after it was coated with epoxy.  Its never fun to get epoxy all over the place.  Albeit we got the thing wound and that's the important part.  The Epoxy requires 24 hours for a full cure, so I am not going to take the core out of the winding jig until tonight...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 28, 2010, 12:37:45 AM
Just popped it out of the jig...

Mmmm...  Fresh coils....  Tasty...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on October 28, 2010, 04:43:25 PM
Great work Z.Monkey,

I've been watching your progress with interest.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on October 28, 2010, 08:39:29 PM
Me too!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: b_rads on October 28, 2010, 08:52:48 PM
Z.Monkey
All the diligence, perseverance, and hard work you have applied to this project is certainly deserving of positive results.  I am in your cheering section rooting for your success.    :)
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 29, 2010, 12:27:41 AM
Thank you, thank you, thank you...

b-rads are you calling me Tenacious Z?

I think this one will work good because its a legacy device.  Just an alternator with a new configuration and not some fringe science thingy.  I really like fringe science thingys, and have attempted more than a few.  So hopefully this one will turn out better than those...

Thanks again, Y'all... :D
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: energia9 on October 29, 2010, 12:33:56 AM
this is some excellent work,wanted to say thank you for your experimenting. keep up : )
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: shylo on October 29, 2010, 12:49:16 AM
Z... work looks great!....wish I could build stuff that looked that professional.....can hardly wait to see it altogether & running.....not trying to rush you or anything , but could you hurry up ..lol ....take as long as you want....I'm sure it will be well worth the wait......thanx ....shylo
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: b_rads on October 29, 2010, 08:51:17 PM
b-rads are you calling me Tenacious Z?
While “Tenacious Z” is more than appropriate, given the superior craftsmanship you exhibit and the spot-on humor in your posts, I am more inclined to call you –
“a m a Z i n g”
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 01, 2010, 01:58:43 AM
I wanted to show a coil profile, first picture...

Then I spent the morning fitting the bearing plates, second picture.  These plates are the mounts for the bearings and axle assemblies.  The Axles hold the Neo-Dia-Mags.  The third picture is the bearing and axle assemblies.  I need to mount the Neo-Dia-Mags on the axles, fit the bearings, and then do the final assembly of the rotating assembly...

So, really getting close...

BTW, Happy Halloween...
Here are some scary vegetables for Halloween....
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 02, 2010, 12:14:39 PM
Mounting the magnets on the shafts.  These are 1 inch diameter N42s.  They are bigger than the other magnets I was using, and considerably stronger.  Its a good idea to get all the steel instruments out of the area when you are working with these magnets.  Especially the sharp, pointy ones.  Don't try and measure the magnets with the steel calipers, you'll wind up stabbing yourself with them.  If you let the magnets get out of control they can slam together and shatter.  There are a lot of caveats to working with these N42s, hopefully the benefits will be worth it...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 03, 2010, 02:23:59 AM
Its in the hole!

Lot of work getting that magnet in that hole.

Itsa 40 pound magnet...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 03, 2010, 02:24:44 AM
Drive shaft...

There is zero Z Axis lash on the shaft.  The side to side clearance is a little loose, maybe 2 mils.  So, I am going to pull it apart again, and adjust the bearing plates with a punch to squeeze the bearings a little tighter.  There should not be any movement of the shaft, except the intended movement, spin...

The magnet is slightly motoring on the bearing plate bolts.  Otherwise the magnet moves freely.  It is attracted to the bore equally around its perimeter.  It takes little effort to spin the bare shaft.  This is much better that Diamag 3 with the blocks.  The magnets would motor to the blocks and want to stay there, not very efficient.  This is the eddy currents that we don't want.  I am going to replace the hardware in the core with nylon, or maybe aluminum, and this should eliminate the unwanted eddy currents and motoring.

I'm planning on testing on Thursday.  I have to go gather up some more hardware (can you believe it?), and finish assembly tonight...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 03, 2010, 03:44:47 PM
I am in suspense!

Jesus
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 04, 2010, 02:05:13 AM
suspense!
Yups...  Me too!

Replaced the steel hardware with brass.  Did the rest of the mechanical assembly.  I got a little over zealous with the socket wrench and cracked one of the bearings.  Also the peripheral magnets do not auto-motor.  I'z already has a contingency plan for this, there are 1 inch shaft extensions on the back side for gears, which are already specified.  All I have to do is make an order.  Then, also, not totally happy with the bearing mount clearances.  So, it may be coming apart again, maybe several times...

So, at least now its more colorful...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 04, 2010, 08:22:37 PM
It is always difficult to attain something of value.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: shylo on November 04, 2010, 09:12:33 PM
Z looks good enough to give it a spin ....variable speed drill start slow and gradually increase......if you notice any rubbing or bad vibration just shut it down...........be a shame to do all that work and not at least do a trial run...........easy for me to say though .......is the play (sloppyness) where the bearings seat ,or between the shafts and the bearings themselves....or is it that the mags aren't perfectly balanced on thier shafts....that last one will be tough to do ....please keep us posted as you progress ....thanx ..shylo
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 04, 2010, 09:26:36 PM
is the play (sloppyness) where the bearings seat ,or between the shafts and the bearings themselves?
Everything mounted to the shaft is extremely tight.  The clearance issue is where the bearing seats in the mounting plates.  The holes there are a little larger that the outside diameter of the bearing.  The bearing plates are aluminum so they are easily adjusted with my Blacksmith Hammer and a punch.

About running the thing, I don't have any problem running it like it is.  Although only the center magnet is going to spin.  I had planned on testing it with only the center magnet first, then adding the peripheral magnets to see what the difference is.  If it acts like my small prototype then adding the peripheral magnets will double the voltage.

I ordered the gears and associated parts today, and it will take a few days for them to get here.  So, in the meantime, I will finish off the small things that still need to be done, and probably spin it up to get some idea of what the output will be like. 
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: shylo on November 04, 2010, 10:41:11 PM
Hey Z so where the bearings insert ,..they're not tapered fit , so as compressed they tighten?.......you could try wrapping the outer dia. of the bearing with cellophane,...one layer at a time ...cone shaped ...so as it goes in gets tighter and tighter.....then just remove excess .....your bearing plates should keep it tight .....after awhile though due to friction the cellophane will break down.....maybe not worth trying ,but just trying to help.....it's up to you.......shylo
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 04, 2010, 11:28:25 PM
Its a sealed, press fit bearing...

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=1ZGE6&op=search&Ntt=1ZGE6&N=0&sst=subset

You're suggesting that I fix it with tape?  Please...

This is industrial quality...

I fix it with my Blacksmithing skills...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: shylo on November 05, 2010, 01:36:28 AM
Z not trying to be discouraging but,...using a hammer and a punch to get rid of the 2mil slack in the bearing seat is not going to work ...............it will never be centered let alone balanced.......with the cellophane ....if its not perfect ..easy to go back and try again.....once you punch it ...that dimples' there to stay..........shylo
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 05, 2010, 01:49:30 AM
LOL!  Finesse, duh, U underestimate my skills...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: tbird on November 05, 2010, 12:02:55 PM
http://www.maudlinproducts.com/shims/plastic_shim_coil/plastic_shim_coil_5x20.xml?cat=1273
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 06, 2010, 05:42:51 PM
OK, I took a 5/16 inch flat faced punch worked around the periphery of the hole.  Put the punch down, tap tap.  Move it around maybe 15 degrees and tap tap.  Work all the way around the hole once, then fit the bearing.  Still loose, going around again.  Put the tap down, tap tap.  Move it 15 degrees and tap tap.  I had to go around the circle three times.  Always use uniform strikes with even pressure and don't get in a hurry...

So, that's how you reduce the size of a hole in sheet metal.  There are limits to this.  I only had to move this hole 1 mils on each size.  The further you have to move it the thinner the metal gets, so its not gonna work with a larger error...

You can kinda see the strike marks in this picture...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 06, 2010, 06:17:06 PM
I decided to use the Anvil instead of the machine vise.  The Anvil doesn't move as much.  This plate only needed one revolution of strikes, and was perfect.  Its press fit, like it should be, no lash...

Between the Hammer and the Anvil...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwcS5e0OYQM
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 06, 2010, 08:45:23 PM
OK, now I have the bearing refit done.  That only took about 4 hours.  I rearranged the pieces that were spacing the bearing plates from the core.  I calculated the length of the shaft mounting collars, and the seat of the bearing plate mounts, and the shaft is shorter by 10 mils (calculated).  So that's 5 mils on each end of the shaft.  Then the bearing plates bow inward slightly from the blacksmithing process.  When it is bolted together there is no detectable play in any direction.

Now, we are ready to spin...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 07, 2010, 01:44:11 AM
Hope for the best!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 07, 2010, 02:23:07 PM
Gave it a spin this morning...

Keep in mind here that the peripheral magnets are not spinning, and their strong magnetic fields are possibly interfering with the center magnet that is spinning.  Also, I am spinning it with a battery powered drill which has a maximum RPMs of 1400, and that equates to 23 Hertz.  So we are not spinning it nearly as hard or fast as it potentially could be spun.  Remember that it should be able to spin up to 24000 RPM, or 400 Hertz.

Open circuit voltage is around 14.5 VAC.  I used a 68 Ohm power resistor for a load.  Under load the voltage dropped to 4.1 VAC, and with a 65 Ohm (measured) load that is 63 milliAmps.  So that's a little more than a quarter watt.  I expect this thing to do much better when I get the peripheral magnets spinning.  Waiting for the timing gears now.  They may be here in a couple of days...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 07, 2010, 03:39:10 PM
At least it is working!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 07, 2010, 11:42:43 PM
At least it is working!
Thanks Jesus,

Here is a little video I made of it spinning at a very slow speed.  I put a compass on the mounting plate so you can see the magnetic  field spinning.  It is turning at maybe 1 or 2 Hertz, and it is still producing 1.5 VAC.  I am feeling good about this.  Once the peripheral magnet timing is worked out, then this little alternator is gonna rock...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1LD9X1QxMo
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 08, 2010, 12:13:31 AM
Again. you deserve to have a successful generator!

Jesus
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Mk1 on November 08, 2010, 07:54:56 AM
@zmonkie

Great work , you will need more rpm , is it hard to move ?

I also got a idea ... look at this ...

Mark
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 09, 2010, 03:05:02 AM
is it hard to move ?
No, it motors a little because of the winding slots, but otherwise only takes in/oz to move it.  you can spin it with your fingers...   A 40 pound magnet...  Got other problems already.  Continuous spin control on this mutha-forker...

I got the gear set, and its a little fat.  LOL!  Spin control!  looks like I've got a whole 'nuther machine process to play with now...

Take a look-see...

Too tired to deal with it now...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Mk1 on November 09, 2010, 09:09:45 AM
@zmonkey

You did get why i posted a microwave fan , but i will spell it out for everyone.

It has a coil , core and a shaft with bearings , all you need is to replace the aluminum rotor with a magnet , for a cheep and easy way to make one or many since the shaft could be extended to work on many cores.

Mark
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 09, 2010, 11:38:42 AM
Sorry Mark,
I was fixated on my current problem.  Yes that looks like a shaded pole AC motor.  It could possibly work as a DiaMag alternator if you replace the rotor (which is probably a permanent magnet anyway) with a big neo-dia-mag.  So where did you find it, and ho much does it cost?
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Mk1 on November 09, 2010, 12:13:41 PM
@zmonkey

Hi , its a microwave fan , can be found free of charge in the trash , pretty standard .

The coil is pretty nice , and like i said the rotor is usually aluminum , induction fan ...

Keep the great work , i know you will figure it out ...

Mark
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 09, 2010, 12:29:08 PM
Can you measure the shaft diameter, and the rotor diameter?  If I have those dimensions I can probably pick parts out of a catalog that would drop in.  Then all you have to do is replace the parts and spin the shaft.  That is a lot easier than what I have done here...

I love salvage parts...

Edit:  That rotor may already be a neo dia mag, so it may not even need replacing...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 10, 2010, 03:20:30 AM
Look, the gears got a face lift...

Thin is sexy...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 10, 2010, 03:32:48 AM
That reminds me a swimsuit beauty contest!

Jesus
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 10, 2010, 03:46:32 AM
That reminds me a swimsuit beauty contest!

Jesus
Uh, I have to take, uh, her, apart again...

I hope you don't mind...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 10, 2010, 01:17:46 PM
I did another electrical test this morning...

Open circuit voltage is 17.34 Volts.

Loaded with the 65 ohm resistor it drops to 5.84 Volts.

Which gives a current of 90 milliAmps.

And that is about half a Watt...

The gears work great, they are the least of my worries...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT-4j-L4QXw

The poor electrical performance is because of the wire I chose.  I measured the resistance of the coils, 25 ohms !?!?  No wonder there is no current.  This is probably the most fundamental thing I screwed up trying to be cheap.  I have this old spool of 22 AWG magnet wire, and figured its no cost, gotta use it.  I'll go for high voltage.  Not thinking that the big resistance would turn my alternator into a fancy, spinning choke.  So, you can guess what's next.  Rewind...

Gotta take it all the way apart again...

This time I'm thinking about using 16 AWG magnet wire...

Edit: Forgot to mention that I weighed it this morning, 8 1/3 pounds...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: b_rads on November 10, 2010, 04:45:10 PM
Z.Monkey
This project of yours is developing into a work of art.  With your permission, I would like to save a copy of your last pictures for wallpaper on my personal computer.  The rework on the gears is awesome.  Bummer about the coils!  You truly are Tenacious.   
Brad S
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 10, 2010, 06:15:30 PM
work of art.
LOL!  My artistic medium is steel, copper, and aluminum seasoned with physics...
You can use the pictures if you want.  Already got a plan for the coils...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 11, 2010, 04:19:04 PM
I got the new wire on order today.  Its an industrial grade 14 AWG magnet wire, here are the specs...

http://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/8073.pdf

Looks like I'll be doing the unwind / rewind thing soon.

Then we make power...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 13, 2010, 01:14:26 PM
I got busy taking apart the alternator on Friday night.  All the hardware came off nice.  The coils decided that they were an immovable object.  I did put these coils together with marine epoxy, so I didn't figure that they would be easy to take apart...

I got 9claw and Samurai to provide some muscle, and together we applied the unstoppable force.  It took a few hours to liberate the immovable object.  The core is steel, so I wasn't too worried about applying the Blacksmith Hammer and a sharp chisel to liberate the immovable object...

The last picture is the bits left over...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 15, 2010, 02:12:57 PM
I've got a new way to apply the keepers this time.  I want to make the coils a little more narrow, so there are no problems with the hardware or tools used on the hardware.  The keepers will come off with the winding jig this time.  The coil will be epoxy filled, same as last time.  The larger wire should produce more uniform windings.  Also didn't add anything between the wire and the core this time.  I used a couple winds of electrical tape last time.  This wire is heavily armored, do there is no need for the intermediate material.

Ready to rewind...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 15, 2010, 04:41:30 PM
Good luck my friend!

Jesus
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 17, 2010, 12:40:53 PM
Good luck my friend!
Thanks Jesus...

Got the new coils wound...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: NineClaw on November 17, 2010, 05:59:57 PM
Here's to hoping we don't ever have to take the new coil off...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 17, 2010, 06:07:20 PM
Yeah, that one is a bit difficult to replace...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 18, 2010, 03:20:11 AM
Gotta a 'lil mo meat in there this time...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 18, 2010, 03:52:58 AM
Those coils seem configured as a Joule thief coil. With a center tap.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 19, 2010, 01:57:33 PM
The new windings are producing 0.73 Volts open circuit.  A little lower than expected.  Looks like I chose wire that is a bit bigger than what I needed.  Mark had suggested that I use a step up transformer in this situation.  So I have a 10:1 step down transformer that I hooked up backwards to make it step up.  The open circuit output from the transformer is 9.5 Volts.  When I add the 65 Ohm resistor the voltage drops to 2.94 Volts, which is 45 milliAmps, and about 1/8 of a watt.  Testing with the same drill, 1400 RPM, 23 Hertz.

So, that was a step in the wrong direction...

Anyway, kind of at an impasse here.  I'll let it fester in my subconscious for a while and see what gets regurgitated in a couple of days...

Got to get ready for Thanksgiving in the meantime...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 19, 2010, 02:32:09 PM
Just for experimenting you can attach a joule thief circuit to the coils as they are now and see how much voltage you get out.

I think you know this already. Just in case the center tap of the two coils go to the positive and the other wires one goes to the transistor base through a resistor and the other to the transistor colector.

Jesus
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: wattsup on November 19, 2010, 02:43:43 PM
Hi @Z

Always good to see your works. Great workmanship.

Maybe a few points to consider.

@MK showed you a microwave oven fan motor. Those motors work because there is a slit cut into the lamination so it will work with AC. Also they have a rotor that has angled laminations to keep the rotation going.

The other thing is those bolts you are using to hold your laminations together. If they are steel, then then can play havoc on flux movement. Maybe look for some aluminum bolts. But it seems that there are many bolts that are very bulky. Imagine flux is bouncing off those bolts.

Last thing is the coil wires coming out to only three terminals where you have two soldered together. You are better to use 4 terminals then you can play with the wiring in different ways for your tests. Series, parallel, opposing, etc.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 19, 2010, 03:53:52 PM
Jesus, I hadn't thought about using the JT in conjunction with the DiaMag6.  I need to explore the JT first.  What are the part numbers for the diode and transistor?

Wattsup, I have of set of brass bolts (non-ferrous) and can swap those in there.  But the brass is soft compared to the steel, and the bolts get chewed up when I put them in and take them out.  There is a pile of brass filings under the thing every time I move them.  I feel like the steel bolts are OK because this is not a signal transformer.  Eddy currents cause performance issues in signal transformers, but here the magnets are telling everybody what to do.  I have spent a lot of time contemplating my mag field issues, and probably have more work to do there.  Also the windings are wound to be in series, and that is why they are connected in the middle.

About the poor electrical performance, which is mag field related, there is something I forgot to add.  If you look at the raw core, we have two E cores back to back.  The "I"'s are missing, like an EI core.  The reason EI cores are efficient is they have a complete flux path around the coils.  In the case of the DiaMag6 core the flux return pathways (I's) are missing.  That would reduce efficiency and overall performance.  I think I can make something with some bar stock to fill that gap...

Thanks for the helps, Y'all...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 19, 2010, 08:09:37 PM
The diode that its used most is the 1n4007.
One of the best transistor I have used is the Tip3055.
The resistor depends on what battery you use. A pot is recommended here.

PS
At the diode and the extra wire comming from the emitter is where you have the output Dc voltage.

Jesus
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 20, 2010, 02:13:23 PM
The diode that its used most is the 1n4007.
One of the best transistor I have used is the Tip3055.
Teh Joule Thief is what I call a boost converter.  Its an oscillating circuit that pumps up the voltage of a battery source.  I don't think using the DiaMag6 coils as the timing circuit inductor is the right way to apply this.  Use the DiaMag6 as the battery source.  Rectify and Filter the AC to DC.  Then apply it to teh Joule Thief.  This way teh Joule Thief retains its Bifilar inductor which is part of its timing circuit.

The operation of teh Joule Thief is dependent on the LRC timing circuit which is half of the Bifilar inductor, the resistor, and the capacitance (and threshold) of the gate on the 2N3055.  The voltage charges up the gate until it crosses the threshold, and then the transistor turns on and dumps current into the other side of the Bifilar winding.  This creates an output pulse, and resets the timing circuit simultaneously.  It is boosting voltage at the sacrifice of current.  The output power is probably a little less, but it makes batteries last longer because you are Pulse Width Modulating the output, and don't have a continuous drain on the battery.

So, yeah, it will increase the output voltage...

Edit:  Forgot to mention that the pulses coming out of the Bifilar winding will be very fast transients.  The 1N4007 diode is not nearly fast enough to catch these pulses.  Try using a Schottky Diode, ultrafast diode, 1N5817.  The waveform produced when the 2N3055 turns on and off is a square wave.  Square waves produce extremely high frequency harmonics, and if your diode is fast enough you can catch them.  Some peeps think this is ZPE...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 20, 2010, 02:48:58 PM
Thank you @zmonkey for the explanation and the addition of the new better diode to the circuit.

Jesus
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 21, 2010, 02:31:36 AM
Hey Jesus,

I revised the circuit a little to make it more descriptive...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 21, 2010, 11:09:44 AM
Thank you @zmonkey!

Jesus
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 23, 2010, 05:13:39 PM
Doh!

http://www.mwswire.com/pdf_files/mws_tech_book/copper_magnet_wire_data.pdf

Assumptions will kick your ass...

I assumed that old spool of wire was 22 AWG.  Its not...  I found that magnet wire spec sheet above, and measured the wire, about 16 mils.  That's not 22 AWG, its 26 AWG.  No wonder it didn't work like it should.  Doh!  Then I went to 14 AWG, from 26 AWG...  Doh!

So, now I am thinking middle of the road here, 20 AWG.  But I don't have 20 AWG available.  But I do have a spool of 22 AWG.  So, I'm right back where I thought I was.  I could shell out some more clams for 20 AWG, but I think I'll go for a little more voltage, and stick with the surplus spool of 22 AWG.  Then the cost is just another tube of epoxy...

Now I just got to get that Turkey out of the way, then we can rewind...

BTW, also getting the flux return path bars today...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on November 28, 2010, 05:33:38 PM
Back to the Core issues...

I really needed to unwind...

This one came apart a lot easier than the 26 AWG coil (first one).  The large wire is stronger than the epoxy bonds, and I was able to pull it apart with my hands.  The 14 AWG wire is salvageable also, so I rewound it on a spool and put it away for laterz...

Now I have to setup the jig again, and wind the 22 AWG coils...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 03, 2010, 01:53:08 PM
3rd winding is the charm, right?

That's where the overunity is, right...   LOL!

Getting ready to do the 22 AWG windings.  I've got all the bits together, and just gotta get the time to spin the jig...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 03, 2010, 02:21:32 PM
Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: b_rads on December 03, 2010, 04:13:38 PM
 :) Here’s to hope that the third time is the charm!  :)
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 05, 2010, 03:30:26 AM
Three is wound...

Waiting for the epoxy to cure...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 05, 2010, 03:38:05 AM
Wish for the best!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 05, 2010, 07:08:01 PM
OK, cracked the core out of the winding jig this morning.  I spent a couple hours reassembling the thing, and now I have some test numbers.  So, I am going to summarize the results of the three windings here.

Coil 1, 26 AWG
Coil resistance = 25 Ohms x 2 coils in series = 50 Ohms.
Open circuit voltage = 17.34 Volts.
Voltage Loaded with 65 Ohms = 5.84 Volts.
Amperage based on resistor = 89.8 milliAmps.
Wattage based on Amperage = 0.52 Watts.

Coil 2, 14 AWG
Coil resistance = 0.6 Ohms x 2 coils = 1.2 Ohms.
Open circuit voltage = 0.73 Volts.
Voltage loaded with a 65 Ohms = 0.63 Volts
Amperage based on resistor = 9.7 milliAmps
Wattage based on Amperage = 0.006 Watts

Coil 3, 22 AWG
Coil resistance = 2.5 Ohms x 2 coils = 5 Ohms
Open circuit Voltage = 3.85 Volts
Voltage loaded with 65 Ohms = 3.17 Volts
Amperage based on resistor = 48.7 milliAmps
Wattage based on Amperage = 0.154 Watts

If we look at the wattage, the first coil looks like the best.  But, look at the way the voltage drops off under load.  Clearly a current deficiency.  Coil 2 is simply mismatched.  6 milliWatts, uulgh...  The third coil develops a low voltage, but doesn't fold when the load is applied.  So, of the three the third coil is probably the best matched of the three...

So, I think I am satisfied with the coils now.  I'm gonna work on some other parts now...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 05, 2010, 07:33:23 PM
Something that has been bugging me for a while is the Flux Return Path Bars (FRP-Bars).  I needed to improve the flux pathways around the outside of the coils.  There are currents there, and they need a highly conductive path around the outside of the coils.  These are the "I's" that I was talking about before.  The I's that are missing from the EI cores...

I got a bar of mild steel which is 1/2 inch x 1 inch x 3 feet, about $18 at Ace Hardware.  I cut some 7 inch sections.  I put one on each side of the core, and then clamped them into place for a test.  OK, now look at these numbers...

Coil 3, 22 AWG
Coil resistance = 2.5 Ohms x 2 coils = 5 Ohms
Open circuit Voltage = 7.81 Volts
Voltage loaded with 65 Ohms = 5.71 Volts
Amperage based on resistor = 87.8 milliAmps
Wattage based on Amperage = 0.501 Watts

I tripled the output wattage by adding the Flux Return Pathway Bars (FRP-Bars)...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 05, 2010, 07:58:53 PM
I made a video of the test and put it on yuo tubez...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vmkOOXpGRE
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 06, 2010, 12:40:53 AM
If the clamps are iron, you should retest without them in order to get an accurate result. The FRP-bars are shorted by the clamps and making a different path for the flux return. That is just my opinion.

I could be wrong though.

Jesus
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 06, 2010, 12:54:54 AM
I the clamps are iron, you should retest without them in order to get an accurate result.
Howdy Jesus,
Yeah, you're right.  The clamps are iron, and providing another flux pathway.  I cut the FRP-Bars an inch long so that I can use some screws to secure them through the ends.  The C clamps are temporary, and I'll do another test once I modify the FRP-Bars, and add the mounting screws...

Another efficiency idea I am playing with is adding a mixture of fine iron filings and epoxy to fill up any gaps that I have between the core and the coil.  I would need to clean out any spaces that are filled with epoxy only, and then refill them with the iron filing and epoxy mix.  Little things like this kick the efficiency up an further increase the output power...

Edit:  Jesus, the C clamps are routing flux away from the core.  When they are removed the efficiency should get better, power should go up...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 06, 2010, 12:58:37 AM
Good idea!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Mk1 on December 06, 2010, 02:50:36 AM
@z

You should really make test to determine if it affects the output .

But i think the design is safe since the generator you built is almost identical the old phone magneto to the exception of the stator/rotor reversal . Magneto usually rotate a coil in a magnetic field the opposite is also feasible .

Mark
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 06, 2010, 03:01:30 AM
Magneto usually rotate a coil in a magnetic field the opposite is also feasible.
Rotate a magnet in a coilnetic field?  LOL!

Yeah, this is old school.  That is why I don't have big gains, like modern alternators.  What I am doing with the iron cores and basic magnets is late 19th century technology.  Tesla would have built something like this in college (1880's, maybe).  My angle is to explore the fundamentals as Tesla would have, hoping to re-experience his revelations...

I like to think that this is Electro-Punk, uh, sort of...  Like Steam-Punk, but with electrons, and not water vapor...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 09, 2010, 01:39:57 PM
I've been trying to find low voltage bulbs that fit the Edison base.  The lowest voltage bulb that I could find local was 24 Volts.  It does light the bulb but not to full intensity.  I have some other 6.3 Volt bulbs but they are a bayonet base, and I would have to take the cool Edison base off my load jig...   Wah...

Video of the Light Bulb Test...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4iHdNWo86k
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: gyulasun on December 09, 2010, 08:25:01 PM
Hi z.monkey,

What is the DC resistance of your present coils? Also, if you have an L meter at hand, would be good to know the coils average inductance (on average I mean its change when rotor is slowly rotated).
I ask these because knowing these data a good optimum load impedance could be estimated that could insure a power match Zgen=Zload to get the highest output at a given rpm. The 24V light bulb gave a light load at random but if you use a 6.3V bulb its brightness will still depend on its wattage rate.
I guess you surely know these.
Excellent job by the way!

Gyula
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 10, 2010, 12:57:36 PM
Thanks Gyula,

Um, lets see, the coils are ~2.5 Ohms each, connected in series, out of phase 180 degrees.

I don't have an inductance meter, but I do have the magnet wire spec sheet...

http://www.belden.com/techdatas/english/8051.pdf

It give us the specific resistance of 22 AWG wire which is 16.2 Ohms per 1000 feet.

16.2 Ohms divided by 1000 feet is 0.0162 Ohms per foot...

5 Ohm coil divided by 0.0162 Ohms per foot is ~308 feet of wire divided by 2 coils = 154 feet per coil...

The data sheet also gives us linear turns per inch = 37.5, and turns per square inch = 1406...

The cross sectional area of the winding space is 0.5 inch x 0.75 inch = 0.375 square inches...

So, the number of windings we can fit in that space is ~ 527 windings per coil...

The core is Steel (Hard Iron) so its permeability is 8.75×10−4 uH/M (microHenries per Meter)

The core is an inch square, but the corners are rounded off, so I give the core area 0.95 Square Inches...

Convert that to metric and we have 2.413 Square Centimeters...

We plug all of this into an inductance equation...

Inductance = (permeability x number of turns squared x cross sectional area) divided by length...

Inductance = (0.00875 uH x 259091 turns2 x 2.413 cm2) / 1.27 cm = 4307 microHenries, 4.397 milliHenries, or 0.004397 Henries...

Of course my equation is not dynamic like a meter would be...

I may have to put that L-Meter on my Christmas list, good idea, thanks again...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 11, 2010, 01:56:14 AM
Doh!

I even Forked Up the Equation...

"The core is Steel (Hard Iron) so its permeability is 8.75×10−4 uH/M (microHenries per Meter)"

s/b 8.75×10−4 uH/M, and...

"Inductance = (0.00875 uH x 259091 turns2 x 2.413 cm2) / 1.27 cm = 4307 microHenries"

s/b Inductance = (0.000875 uH x 5272 turns x 2.413 cm2) / 1.27 cm = 430.7 microHenries...

There are a lot of caveats, nuances and idiosyncrasies to this induction stuffz...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 11, 2010, 02:03:11 AM
That generator is giving you a hard time.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 11, 2010, 05:36:08 PM
This isn't hard.  This is aggravating.  Hard was cutting the steel core plates...

So, anyway I changed my Load Jig to hold four bayonet lamp mounts.  These are the low Voltage lamps that are compatible with my Low Voltage Coils.  With a single lamp in the jig the lamp gets very bright.  As I add more lamps I get a bigger Voltage drop and the intensity goes down.  It will light 4 lamps, although the intensity is about a quarter of a single lamp...

I am still turning this with my drill at 23 Hertz, so the next step is to make it turn faster.  Its only turning about a third of where it should be, and we can go so much faster.  I'm thinking I can use a motor with an overdrive gear set to get the RPMs up...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: gyulasun on December 12, 2010, 12:29:48 AM
Hi zmonkey,

The real inductance value for your coils in series can only be measured with your would-be L meter because there exists a mutual inductance between them too and you cannot easily calculate it, do not bother about it...
I think your coils in series may have any inductance from several hundred uH to some mH and with your low rpm giving low working frequency AC voltage the inductive impedance is pretty much less than the DC resistance in series.  So you may consider your output impedance is only very slightly higher than the DC resistances in series, i.e. 5 Ohm, this is what a load should be matched to, to get the highest output power possible.
rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 12, 2010, 01:09:46 AM
Gyula,

Yeah, that's right, and the load I can manage reflects that.  I can run one half watt bulb at full brightness, or two at half brightness.  The new load jig helped to verify this...

Jesus,

The C clamps were taking some of the flux.  When I removed them, and added the integrated screw clamps the open circuit Voltage went up by 0.2 Volts.  Little tweak here, a little kludge there, a little finesse somewhere else, and eventually we will have a sweet alternator.  Last test the open circuit Voltage was 7.81 Volts, and now its 8.05 Volts...

Edit:  You know what we need to kick the efficiency through the roof is to fill in the gap between the magnets, and the core bore.  That is a giant gap for a flux field.  Mega loss of efficiency there.  There is 1/16 of an inch there.  I thought about stuffing it with Iron filings, but they are a bit abrasive.  What about magnetic fluid, perhaps a lubricant, with microscopic iron spheres, like micro ball bearings... 

Hmmm,  yes, hmmm...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 12, 2010, 02:37:20 AM
And now for a note about another set of physics...

Mechanical tension...  A source of friction, and inefficiency...

My gears were gnashing, oh noes...

So I adjusted the mounting points and freed up the gears, and it netted another 0.52 Volts...

Was just at 8.05 Volts open circuit, now at 8.57 Volts...

Awesomes...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 12, 2010, 03:09:20 AM
Two Bulbs, One Drill...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2anE5camdaI
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 12, 2010, 11:24:42 PM
The bulbs flicked a little but after the generator went into speed they lighted very well.

Keep your good work!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: FatBird on December 12, 2010, 11:42:22 PM
Great photos.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 14, 2010, 01:58:58 PM
Make it go faster...

I pulled this motor out of my Bicycle Wheel Alternator.  Its a Dayton part number 2M197...

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=2M197&op=search&Ntt=2M197&N=0&sst=subset

1/35 HP, 2350 RPMs on the label, but the spec sheet says you can push it to 3600...

Right where I want to be...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on December 14, 2010, 02:11:27 PM
The link you posted says that that motor has been discontinued. So in that case if it work well it will be unique.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on December 15, 2010, 12:15:40 PM
You know what we need to kick the efficiency through the roof is to fill in the gap between the magnets, and the core bore.  That is a giant gap for a flux field.  Mega loss of efficiency there.  There is 1/16 of an inch there.  I thought about stuffing it with Iron filings, but they are a bit abrasive.  What about magnetic fluid, perhaps a lubricant, with microscopic iron spheres, like micro ball bearings... 
Cheap, easy to make, yes its ferromagnetic fluid...

http://chemistry.about.com/od/demonstrationsexperiments/ss/liquidmagnet.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsQh1AT6qUE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL8R8SfuXp8&feature=channel

This is the game changer.  "The Gap" has been the bane of electromagnetic experimenters for a couple of centuries.  We shall fill the gap...

Just what I was talking about little ferrous particles suspended in an oil.  Yes!  Although I think I'll use motor oil.  I'll need to seal the bores now...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on March 29, 2011, 01:42:23 PM
JB Weld, takes me back to my hotrod days...

Well, unfortunately Ferromag fluid isn't gonna help this design.

The configuration of the coils relative to the magnets makes for a low efficiency design (like 5%, maybe).  I could also look at it as low drag, which is what I need for experimenting with the UABMM.  There are two axioms when working with induction; (1) the field only induces current in the wire when the field is moving, and (2) when the poles of the field are pointed at the wire.  Side currents are irrelevant.  So this design is more like a pulse generator than an alternator.

I probably read those axioms a hundred times, and still didn't get it until I was debugging my DiaMag6 design...

I tried to get a scope shot of the output.  My work area is very noisy, and I haven't been able to filter out the 60 Hz, so this shot is riding on a 60 Hz wave.  The first shot is just the 60 Hz.  Then the other shot is DiaMag6 running on the wave...

Also, moving forward, I need to get way more efficient, and easier to manufacture...

The 3 magnet design is out, going back to one magnet.

Gears are out, too expensive, too much drag, simply inefficient.

The hybrid design moderately worked, made a pulse generator, need more study there, with the UABMM...

DiaMag7 will be a single diametrically magnetized Neo-Mag, and polyphase coils instead of the side solenoids.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on March 29, 2011, 04:39:48 PM
Are you planning on using the mags in the UABMM for the field force?
The UABMM provides the rotation, the DiaMag6 converts the rotation into electrical current.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on March 29, 2011, 05:06:49 PM
The smallest circle in the middle is the axle.  The next circle out is the bearing.  The next circle out is the outside diameter of the magnet (1.5 inch diameter).  Then the slots hold the windings.  This is where DiaMag7 is different from the other DiaMag Alternators.  The windings will be on opposite sides of the magnet and not offset to the side.  Its 2 poles (one magnet), and what we would normally call a stator in an alternator is a solid Neo-Mag thick ring magnet in this case.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on March 29, 2011, 05:56:53 PM
We could spin the alternator with wind, or water, or a gas motor, or bicycle cranks, but I thought a magnet motor would be a lot more challenging and fun.  Mainly to see if I can get it to work, but also it may widen our alternatives in electric production.  I've got better tools now, so DiaMag7 will be easier to build than DiaMag6.  Building DiaMag6 was an abysmal process, it took months...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on March 30, 2011, 12:41:12 PM
So this is a pretty complex wave form...

It seems the current generation has some contention in there.  I think I know why.  The coils respond to the poles.  As the poles pass the coil there is pulse of current generated.  The magnets are synchronized with the gears (perhaps not very precisely), and there is a N pole and a P pole passing on opposite sides of the coil.  This would cause the current to be pulled quickly one direction, and then the other, causing a voltage spike positive, and then negative.  There are 2 vertical coil segments that are affected by the magnets, so we should get 4 pulses per revolution, two pulses per pole passing, and two poles passing.  Then also the other coil is tied to the center tap, so there are the compliment pulses on the opposite polarity, perhaps not quite synchronous.  So the output is a sloppy, almost square wave, with a lot of neutral time.

I can probably make this a lot less complex by removing the gears, and the outer magnets, and try and get another scope shot with only one magnet spinning...

That wave form makes me say WTF?
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on April 02, 2011, 02:28:08 PM
I hit the Metal Shop early today.

I found a piece of 1/16" Aluminum which is just right for the DiaMag7 mounting plates.  I got it marked up first, then got busy spotting.  The piece was a little long, so I trimmed off the excess and also made a slot between the two plates to help separate them.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on April 02, 2011, 02:40:25 PM
Now that I have the piece roughed out, I can start getting it ready to assemble on the rotary table for the fabrication process.  First I need to mark the slots.  Also had to redraw a few lines that got smudged.  I use a carbide pencil to scratch lines into the Aluminum, and then a marker to color them.  Then I needed to finish off the holes.  The holes are matched to my fixturing clamps for now.  Then after this process we will take them out to the finish diameter.

I separated the two mounting plates with a sheet metal shear do that I wouldn't loose any material between them.  The shear bent the plates a little so I flattened them out again on the anvil, with the blacksmith hammer.  Also made a sacrificial block to ride underneath the mounting plates during the machine process.

Then both the mounting plate and the sacrificial block get mounted on the rotary table for the fabrication process.  The two plates are aligned, and locked in place, so in the end we will have two identical pieces, hopefully...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on April 02, 2011, 09:46:18 PM
Bet you thought you wouldn't see the Bitmore vise again...

The assembly was too high for the Palmgren Table, so I had to backpedal and use the Bitmore table.  Its not a bad table, just has some quirks.  I had to get some shorter metric (M5) screws to secure the mounting plates to the rotary table.  Also had to fit them, of course I couldn't find a screw that would fit right without modification.  After that I was ready to cut.

I started with the circular peripheral cut to isolate the mounting tabs.  Then cut the slots.  The slop in the two tables was troublesome, but by making slow cuts, and really clamping everything hard I got around it, somewhat.  I had a few SNAFUs, but I think I can work them out with the small files.  So, basically, the new mounting plates are rough cut, and we're on to the finishing process...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on April 03, 2011, 12:26:20 PM
These mounting plates are not purrfect, but I didn't breach the magnet space with the slot cuts.  So, hopefully the magnet will spin freely.  I'll apply OTF fixes (On The Fly) as needed to make it work.  I am cleaning up the mounting plates with tiny diamond files.  They are great for precision work, but are very fine, so making big cuts is time consuming.  Some of the clearances are not even close to what I want, but you know, we'll make due with whats we got...

Next step is to cut some aluminum tubes to be the stand offs between the plates.  I have some brass bolts for the supports inside the Aluminum tubes.  Then I need to fit the mechanical pieces together, and square them up to make sure there is adequate clearance for the spinning part (1 inch diameter Neo-Dia-Mag).  Then once the mechanicals are happy I can get to winding the polyphase coils...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on April 04, 2011, 02:04:54 AM
In case you have been having trouble visualizing the end product, here it is...

The 1/16" Aluminum is a lot more rigid than I thought it would be.  I didn't breach the magnet space, and now this is visually verified.  I have somewhere between 30 and 50 mils of clearance around the magnet.  The Aluminum spacers are a little short on purpose.  This puts a little tension on the plates so that there is no lash in the bearings.  The bearings are happy, and the shaft spins freely.  There is no motoring on the chassis because there are no ferrous elements in the chassis for the magnet to latch on to.  This is a 40 pound pull magnet, so I think we can get good performance out of this one...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on April 04, 2011, 04:53:47 AM
Hi Z.Monkey,

Very good work for a prototype. Must of been a lot of work to get those cuts and not cut through into the other side(especially aluminum), that takes some skill without a 4 axis milling machine. I used to run a VF-2 4 axis mill at my brother in-laws shop before I messed up my hand.

Anyway, keep up the great work.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on April 04, 2011, 11:47:49 AM
Very good work for a prototype.
Thank you.  A few more upgrades and I'll be able to convert my mini-mill into a legitimate mill...
I need more vertical space now, the 12" bench top drill press.  You can see there is not much room there...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: phoneboy on April 04, 2011, 07:31:40 PM
Nice work! This link might be useful to you as far as converting your drill press to do some real milling, should save your some time and looks fairly easy to make. Hope it helps. http://books.google.com/books?id=HNgDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=convert+drill+press+milling+machine&source=bl&ots=5seu590ZU6&sig=kjrhv84gcanj1Y3IWjk2gyffOWA&hl=en&ei=QJeXTdvIEqG00QHxrbnxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCYQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=convert%20drill%20press%20milling%20machine&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=HNgDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=convert+drill+press+milling+machine&source=bl&ots=5seu590ZU6&sig=kjrhv84gcanj1Y3IWjk2gyffOWA&hl=en&ei=QJeXTdvIEqG00QHxrbnxCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCYQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=convert%20drill%20press%20milling%20machine&f=false)
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on April 05, 2011, 12:06:02 PM
Nice work!
Thanks Phoneboy.  I love Popular Mechanics.  My Grandfather had stacks of old copes in his garage, plus a whole lot of tools, so your link there is kinda nostalgic for me.  Trying to remember...  I think it was 1978 when I started building stuff and paying attention to things like Popular Mechanics...

Those old ads...  LOL!  Some of that stuff is still in Popular Mechanics...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on April 08, 2011, 11:51:48 AM
I put some windings on the DiaMag7 last night.
I resisted the urge to cleanup these plates more, and break the edges of the aluminum.
Yep, shoulda done that...

Although this coil looks pretty, its useless because its all shorted out.  And I mean everything.  The polyphase windings are more labor intensive than bobbin windings.  This means more contact with the core material and stress on the wire during the winding process, and then add in the sharp sheet metal edges, and you get thoroughly shorted out coils...

Then also there is the other problem, the lump of wire that is setting right in front by the axle.  There is a way to make this look better as the coil is designed, which is to wire the second phase the other way.  This would flatten that mass of wire somewhat,   But the wire is still in the way of the axle, and the magnet is stuck in there.  You would have to unwind the coil to replace a bearing, or the magnet.  That's not fun...

I could cleanup the whole mess by going to a Multi-Pole design, where I have more room to make windings, but then I am abandoning the whole DiaMag concept.  The diameter of the stator and windings would have to increase, and then add 8 or 10 poles on the stator.  Then the windings for each set of poles sit in a fraction of the diameter, and the wires would not have to traverse half of the diameter of the alternator...

The more I work on this thing, the more it is turning into a regular alternator...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 10, 2011, 01:24:20 PM
I fitted the new driver ring plate this morning.  I pulled the old driver ring pins replaced them with 6 inch pieces of 1/2"-13 threaded rod.  They use the same holes as the feet of theDiaMag6 alternator.  There are no heads on the rods so I needed to improvise some feet.  I used a flange nut as a foot, and a regular nut as a jam nut to keep the feet in place.  This acts as a leveler too.  I am going to have to do some adjusting to get the threaded rods to act like driver ring pins...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 26, 2011, 04:17:55 PM
DiaMag6 is now my Beast of Burden for UABMM2 over on that thread.

Back to DiaMag7 and the sharp sheet metal edges.  I was fretting over having to chamfer the slots for the wire, and I was kinda stuck there.  Inspiration comes in the strangest places.  I was on the way out to the garden to get some things for my salad; radishes, garlic, and cucumbers.  I walked past the alternator from the Savage Salvage thread, and just happened to look right at the windings, and also the solution.  Its a Chinese alternator.  The windings have a casing, like an isolator which looks like its a sheet of plastic.  They wind the coils, and then fold the sheet of plastic into the slot, and press fit a piece of bamboo in there.  It might be a chop stick!  Genius!

So, I found some relatively thick plastic sheeting.  Vinyl, about 16 mils thick.  I don't need to pretty finish the winding slots.  I can get them to an acceptable shape, and then put a little sheet of vinyl in there to protect the wire from the metal edges.  I was thinking about buying some of that Super Poly-Thermaleze magnet wire, and its expensive, like $65 for a pound.  I guess my sub-conscious was looking for a way not to spend that $65...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 26, 2011, 05:08:59 PM
There, I had to make 16, and get them installed...

Ready to Re-Wind...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 26, 2011, 08:55:41 PM
The DiaMag7 is another step towards what I want to do, but to make more power I need more windings.  I also want a larger diameter rotor, with more poles so it doesn't have to rotate as fast.  With two poles I'll have to spin the shaft at 3600 RPM to make 60 Hertz.  When we add poles we can divide down the shaft speed.  With 4 poles we only need to spin the shaft at 1800 RPM.  With 8 poles we would only need to spin the shaft at 900 RPM...

With a monolithic magnet we can only have two poles.  Large diameter (2, 3, and 4 inch) monolithic magnets are very expensive.  A 2 inch Diametrically Magnetized Ring Magnet at K&J is $180.  A little costly for my prototype...

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RY04Y0DIA

Been looking at various rectangular magnets thinking that I can get a thin magnet that won't have too much radial tolerance, but, you know, its a flat, and I need a radius.  Finally I found some radiused magnets at Magcraft.  To build an 8 pole, 2 inch outside diameter rotor will cost around $50 for the magnets...

http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/p-36-nsn0625.aspx

I got a piece of round aluminum stock from MSC to fill the inside space.  Its 1.75 inches outside diameter.  So the radiused magnets should fit neatly around the aluminum roller.  Now I need to draw the stator and bearing brackets, and get some aluminum sheet on order...

https://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT2?PMPXNO=4451647&PMTERM=02629459

It took me a while to find these, searched lots of different places on teh interwebz.  Magcraft had the perfect match for my next alternator, the NeoMag8.  I did change the name there.  the DiaMag alternators were based on a diametrically magnetized monolithic magnet.  With the radiused segments, we now have a compound rotor, and not a monolithic structure.  So I changed the name to reflect this.  Now its NeoMag for Neodymium Magnet Alternator...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 27, 2011, 03:44:55 AM
Managed to rewind about 3/4s of the coils...
Two windings, 90 degrees apart...
Blarg, tired...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 28, 2011, 12:20:16 AM
Finished off the windings.
This time the slots are full.
The first wind had about half the slot.
Its really light, about 10 ounces.
DiaMag6 weight 10 pounds.  LOL!
Time to build a test bed...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on May 28, 2011, 12:50:45 AM

*watches with keen interest*

Great build z.

Regards...

Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 28, 2011, 01:21:52 AM
Hahahahaha, Fork Yeah!

The coil develops 2.2 Volts, and there is current behind it this time.
I light one bulb 2.2 Volts.  I light 4 bulbs 2.2 Volts.  The coil is 1.6 Ohms.
Some of that is DMM error, like 0.6 Ohms.  So as measured I can drive
1.375 Amps, and is probably more like 2 Amps.  So its somewhere between
3.0 and 4.2 Watts, about 6 to 8 times more power than DiaMag6...

Oh yeah, only one winding is hooked up...  2X in the near future...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 28, 2011, 01:59:41 AM
Great build z.
Thanks Cap-Z-ro...
It took me a year to make 3 Watts...
I hope this is an exponential curve...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 29, 2011, 11:49:51 AM
Got everything mounted to a test block.  I used a couple of Full Wave Schottky Bridge Rectifiers to rectify each coil.  Then connected them in series.  2.2 VAC on each coil, added, then subtract the diode voltage drops.  The result on the load is 2.7 Volts, bulbs are brighter.  The total diode Voltage drop is 1.7 Volts.  So, 0.425 Volts each way, times two full bridge rectifiers.  I selected the Schottky diode because of the low forward Voltage drop, but also because they a high current parts, one Amp continuous, 25 Amp surge.  Now I am utilizing both coils, and I can see how much current I can drive.  Also thinking that the wire I chose is too big, and I need to use 24AWG or 26 AWG to get the Voltage up.  Maybe, not by unwinding this one again, but make another one.  The labor on the DiaMag7 is a couple days, while replicating the Iron Stator on DiaMag6 would take a couple of months.  I need to do some more testing, find heavier loads...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2011, 01:25:02 AM
OK, I have some preliminary numbers from test.

Open circuit Voltage per coil  2.47 Volts AC.

DC Open Circuit Voltage (Both coils rectified and added)  4.30 Volts DC.

1 Bulb Load Current  69 milliAmps.

1 Bulb Load Voltage  3.2 Volts DC.

4 Bulb Load Current  200 milliAmps.

4 Bulb Load Voltage  2.6 Volts DC.

4 Bulbs + 5 Ohm Resistor Load Current  285 milliAmps.

4 Bulbs + 5 Ohm Resistor Load Voltage 1.8 Volts DC.

With these numbers you can start to see how much of a load we can handle.  At half an Amp the Voltage will go down to a Volt.  So, you can see we need more windings.  I am still using my drill to drive DiaMag7, 1400 RPM, 23 Hertz.  We would have better performance numbers if I could run the shaft faster...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2011, 02:02:17 AM
Lookz at teh numbers...

1 bulb test = 0.22 Watts
4 bulb test = 0.52 Watts
4 bulb + 5 Ohm test = 0.51 Watts

We're using the same 1" inch Magnet...

DiaMag7 peaks at 0.52 Watts...

Its Rotor Dynamics 101, our power output is limited by the Rotor Physics.
We have a small section of Pole on each side, maybe 30 to 45 degrees.
This is all that is influencing the coils, the other 270 to 300 degrees of
the Rotor is wasted.  Hence the concept of a multi-Pole Rotor...

What if my coils are improper?  Should each slot pair should be an individual coil?
Maybe each individual slot coil should have its own rectifier.  Then the rectified power
could be combined in a series parallel configuration to produce the desired
output.  All parallel configuration for Current, and all series configuration
for Voltage, or a combination, but that's a lot of silicon...

Perhaps each slot should be the width of the polar influence, and that is all.  Then
we could determine the number of slot pairs based on the Poles radial width...

This allows the limited Pole space to be utilized more efficiency, by segregated slots...

Also, this begs the application of a multi-Pole Rotor, probably to much expense...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: loosecannon on May 31, 2011, 04:30:26 AM
z monkey,

still watching this and your mag motor thread with much interest.

if you are looking to spin the alternator faster, how about a trim router with a rheostat?

should be much faster than 1400rpm.
LC
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2011, 12:01:24 PM
The Dremmel tool I have is rated at 30,000 RPM.  That's 500 Hz...
500 Hz. is the limit of an Iron transformer, but the DiaMag7 has no Iron.
Theoretically we can do this, but the winding strategy is wrong at this
point.  I'm going to cut another set of plates, this time on the Palmgren
table, and make DiaMag7-2.  This time with 8 individual coils, 26 AWG
wire, and 8 Schottky rectifiers.  The Voltage should go up due to the
smaller wire.  The Current should go up because of the individual coils
and rectifiers...

A quick note about my coils.  The Poles are only affecting the coils partially.
As it is now, each coil covers about 75 degrees of the radius, but the
Pole is only affecting part of the coil, 30 degrees maybe.  This limits the
potential Voltage because the coils need the Pole currents to make Voltage.
If the coil is wider than the Pole Field, then the extra windings are just
transporting current and not making Voltage.  So, we need to make the
slot coils wider, preferably the width of the optimum Pole currents, and isolate
it from the adjacent slot coils with diodes.  The Voltage will increase because the
slot is wider, and the wire is smaller providing more windings per slot coil.

Gotz to make another drawing.  I have a 3/32" plate, 0.09375", that
I have been planning to use for the next revision.  So it will be, basically,
the same mechanical construct with an electrical modification.  Then
I can adapt my driver spider to fit the Dremmel Tool.  The shaft coupler
set I have has multiple shaft sizes, and I can probably adapt something
that can fit into the Dremmel Tool's Collet...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2011, 06:57:02 PM
OK, here's the next one, DiaMag7-2.  The slots are wider, went from 0.9375 inch to 0.125 inch.  Also the slots are deeper, went from 1/2 inch to one inch, might not be able to fill them all the way, which is alright.  There are 8 independent 26 AWG coils, and they are spaced 20 degrees apart.  The mounting tabs get 30 degrees of the radius each.  The mounting tabs have been a continuous problem because they are in my winding space.  On the next one, NeoMag8, I will change from outside slots to inside slots to correct this annoyance.  All non-ferrous construction, like the DiaMag7.  Next marking the plates...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on May 31, 2011, 10:12:18 PM
This one is the NeoMag8.  It is one phase, and eight poles.  The magnets and the coils are synchronized such that the polarity is the same for all of the coils.  They can be wired parallel for current, or wired in series for voltage, and do not need to be phase corrected.  The stator has inside windings so it can be wired all the way around the stator, and I do not need to leave space for the mounting tabs.  The mounting tabs are further away from the windings, and the slots are situated so the wire goes away from the mounting tabs.  This one will need bearing plates above and below the stator to mount the rotor.  NeoMag8 has eight more winding slots than DiaMag7-2, and I can make the slots wider if I need to...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 01, 2011, 02:36:08 AM
Loose Cannon...  Hahahahahaha!!!3  Holy Fork!!!3

I put my safety glasses on for this one...

Got an 1/8 inch ID shaft spyder, fits the DiaMag spider...

Found an 1/8 inch piece of music wire shaft, fits the spider perfect...

1/8 inch collet in teh Dremmel...

Driver...

Check, ready for service...

No rheostat...

Oh well, lets go...

Bam!  Runs flawless at 30,000 RPM...

The Voltage jumps up to almost 13 Volts...

Teh lights are blindingly hot...

5 Volt bulbs at 13 VDC...

Holy Fork!!!3

I did make this thing industrial quality...

I have seen The Light!!!5
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 01, 2011, 02:52:04 AM
Just measured teh Amperage...
600 milliAmps @ 12.8 Volts...
7.68 Watts...

Fork Yeah!!!5

Video up in a moment...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 01, 2011, 02:54:53 AM
Teh Video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boTWt6_AcIU
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 01, 2011, 03:01:15 AM
The fourth time I ran it I burned out all four bulbs...

Hahahahaha!!!

Open Circuit DC Voltage is around 14 VDC...

Fork Yeah !!!3
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 02, 2011, 01:05:55 AM
Got better bulbs rated at 14 Volts, and 330 milliAmps.
Now I'm getting 11.2 Volts and 1.2 Amps on the load,
13.86 Watts.  So, getting close to the theoretical
potential...

I guess I can call it a success now...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: nievesoliveras on June 02, 2011, 02:06:13 AM
Congratulations for your success @zmonkey!!!!

Jesus
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 02, 2011, 02:10:26 AM
Congratulations for your success @zmonkey!!!!

Jesus
Thanks Jesus!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: loosecannon on June 02, 2011, 05:56:09 AM
Zmonkey, that mustve been a bit nerve racking the first time you hit that switch eh? LOL

very cool!!!

i dont have access to the tools or space to build anything right now, but when i do; this will be the first project i do.
very exciting to say the least.

kinda scary to think about your mag motor turning that fast! ;)

you have my attention sir.
LC
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 02, 2011, 11:05:36 AM
kinda scary to think about your mag motor turning that fast! ;)
I would be delighted if it goes that fast...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 03, 2011, 04:34:01 PM
OK, now I am starting the fabrication of DiaMag7-2.  This plate is literally a piece of scrap I pulled off some discarded computer equipment.  It is 3/32 (0.09375) inch thick, about 3.2 inches tall and 10.3 inches wide.  What I need for DiaMag7-2 are two, three inch square end plates.  You can see in the pic below I have the outlines defined for both plates, but only one is marked with the remaining cuts.  I only mark one plate because they will be stacked in process.  Also the slots are just lines, and not detailed.  This is because the end mill will define the sides of the slot, and we only need to follow the center line with the end mill...

The process goes in a structured order so that in the end all the holes will be precisely aligned.  First thing is spotting the two center holes.  Everything else literally revolves around the center holes.  Then we will cutout the outlines.  Once the plates are freed then we can finish cut the center holes to 3/8", the size of my center clamp bolt.  We will also need a sacrificial block, with a 3/8 inch center hole.  Then we will stack the plates up, setup the center clamp, align the plates, and lock the table clamps.  Spotting the four corner mounting holes is next.  Then we will take the stack apart and prepare the stack for the actual cutting process.

I'm cutting on the Palmgren Table this time and not the Rotary Table.  I get much better results on the Palmgren Table.  This time I am using the four corner mounting holes to hold the stack together.  I'll drill the four corner mounting holes to 1/4 inch, and countersink the back of the sacrificial block.  The short, maybe 1/2 inch long, stack bolts will sit inside the sacrificial block so that the stack is free to rotate about the center clamp.  Then I'll use the table clamps on both sides of the stack.  I am hoping that I can actually finish mill the slots this time and not have to file down each slot.

Finish milling the slots takes more time, but with the Palmgren Table I think I can do it.  It was just not possible on the Bitmoore Vise with the Rotary Table.  So this process starts like the other milling I have done, a set of overlapping vertical mill cuts.  Then I'll run the mill down in entire slot as though I were side milling.  I am hoping that this will take off all the scallops, and leave a nice finish.  I may increase the spindle speed of the drill press to improve the end finish of the slots.  Now that I have the slot liners I want improve this process to make it more efficient.  It took a whole Saturday to mill the DiaMag7 plates.  I want to make this next set faster...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 03, 2011, 05:48:58 PM
Well, made a little change.  Decided to do the outline first, and then spot the center hole.  This lets me punch the center hole through all three pieces simultaneously.  When I get back to my Mini-Mill all I have to do is set the stack one the table, align the stack, lock the clamps, and start spotting.  Is it the weekend yet?
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 08, 2011, 03:28:04 AM
Got the DiaMag7-2 Plate spotted and ready to cut...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 08, 2011, 04:43:26 PM
A note about efficiency...

Lets look at the power required to run the Dremmel.  Rated at 120 Volts, and it boasts 1.15 Amps on the label.  That is 138 Watts.  In the last test, with the new load, the DiaMag7 put out 13.86 Watts.  A little better than 10 percent.  Is this right?  Yeah, its the rotor physics.  The monolithic magnet has a natural flux field, and as it turns out a natural flux field is not very efficient.  We need to increase the pole surface area, and add more poles to kick the efficiency up.  The NeoMag8, with 8 poles and maximum pole surface area will do this.  I do still want to build DiaMag7-2 anyway, with a different coil configuration, just to have a little more empirical proof that this is the rotor physics.  The rotor is key to the whole device.  Mo betta rotor, mo betta efficiency.  Looks at it the way Spicoli would...

If you want bodacious output, like, you gotta have a schweet rotor, man...

The poles of the monolithic magnet in the DiaMag7 are only an estimated 16 percent of the surface area of the magnet.  The NeoMag8 magnets have 100 percent of the surface area covered with poles.  Do you see a bit more efficiency there?  I am chomping at the bit to get NeoMag8 into fabrication, but I really need to spend some more time gathering data first...  I know, boring, but its the scientific process, and I want a lot of data to support my endeavor...

Also, now that I am starting to measure efficiency, I am starting to build an efficiency testing jig.  I scrounged up a 10 Ohm Rheostat.  Also I have a 12 Volt motor, was the driver for the Bicycle Wheel Alternator.  Then got a 12 Volt, 7 Amp hour SLAB (Sealed Lead Acid Battery) to drive the motor.  I'll add test points for measuring Voltage and Current.  Then I can measure efficiency over a range of power levels and speeds.  I may wind up getting a bench power supply, just so I can play with the Voltage and the Current.  Then I feel that I should be able to get more accurate efficiency numbers.

If we look at the efficiency from the Dremmel test and apply it to the hand drill test (1400 RPM) then the hand drill is putting out about 5 Watts, the DiaMag7 output numbers were around half a Watt...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 10, 2011, 03:23:34 AM
Shredding...

The most fun that I can have is shredding metal...

I am experimenting with finer cuts, smaller increments.  Before I was cutting the next cut more than half diameter of the mill.  Now I am only moving the cut over one quarter of the way over.  This puts the circles closer together, and reduces the scallops.  this is how I have to do the round parts now.  There are still scallops, but smaller, easier to smooth...

On the slots I am using the same method, but afterward I run the mill down the slot like a side cut.  This smooths out the scallops and leaves a nice finish.  Starting to feel Zen with the Mini-Mill...

I'm scoping out a Rotary Cross Slide Table.  It will make the round cuts pretty, like the slots...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Lakes on June 10, 2011, 11:24:32 AM
You could do with a couple of stepper motors attached to that mini-mill.. ;)
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 10, 2011, 12:30:48 PM
You could do with a couple of stepper motors attached to that mini-mill.. ;)
Yups...
3 axis would be nice...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 16, 2011, 01:16:34 PM
Finally got a chance to finish cutting DiaMag7-2.  The cutting went faster because I had less issues with the milling table.  Also getting more experience with the machine in general.  I am moving the mill 60 mills between cuts, and then doing a side mill finish in the slots.  The Y Axis on the table wasn't quite square, so the slots are a little slanted.  On the next set of plates I'll try a finish the slots before I break the ends to make better, uh, smoother slots.  The plywood sacrificial block was kind of a problem.  It started disintegrating under the plates in process.  This made clamping a little more difficult.  I may use a piece of poly for the next build.

Now need to cleanup the plates, cut some 1/4 inch aluminum tubes for the standoffs, and assemble the frame subassembly.  I am going to wind 8 individual 26 AWG coils on this one.  Each will have its own full wave rectifier, and then the outputs will combine in parallel for the test...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 17, 2011, 01:41:44 PM
Got the standoffs built.  Next is the vinyl inserts, and winding...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 17, 2011, 08:40:51 PM
What do you do at work on Friday afternoon, when you got nuthin' to do?

Draw alternator plates, of course.  This is NeoMag8.  This one is going to take four plates.  Two plates make the wire form, and the other two plates are for mounting the bearings which hold the shaft and the rotor.  The wire form plates are 4 inches in diameter.  They will use the same standoff scheme as the DiaMag7, but this time the winding slots are open on the inside.  So there is a big opening (2 inches) in the middle of the wire form plates.  This is clearance that is needed to wind the coils.  Then the rotor will fill up that space, and we will use the external bearing plates to hold the rotor in place.

Now I need to liberate the four plates from the rest of this piece of stock.  This plate was clearance priced.  Apparently it was cut for a customer and then not purchased.  So the retailer marked it down.  It is a little larger than what I need, but I'll have some decent sized scraps left over for something else.

Back to shredding metal!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 17, 2011, 10:30:43 PM
This new plate is thicker, 0.125 inches, harder to cut with teh hacksaw...
I'll probably have the outlines on all four plates cut in a few hours...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on June 29, 2011, 11:55:41 AM
Looking forward to the Holiday to get some metal shop time...

I used a left over piece of 1/2"x1" Bar Stock and a couple of C-Clamps
to make a fence on my milling table.  This will help a lot when I am
spotting the NeoMag8.  I have had significant trouble trying to square
things up on a drill press table.  The post is round, with no markings,
and the Head is so far away from the base that there is no common
reference.  This is why I need a mill, or at least a better drill press.
I was thinking about getting a laser line generator, and attaching it
to the head of the drill press somehow.  This will help me square the
head to the table at least.  A legitimate mill would have reference
points and locks to sit square, solid...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 06, 2011, 06:42:24 PM
What luck...

I've been whining about magnet prices today.  I had based the NeoMag8
on some magnets that I found at Magcraft...

http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/p-36-nsn0625.aspx

When I first sourced these magnets they were $10.99 a pair.  Then recently
I went to order them and they were $16.99 a pair!  So that started the
rampage to find an alternate supplier...

I found some arc magnets at CMS Magnet that are the same size, on sale, $6.89
for a pair...

http://www.magnet4sale.com/On-Sale-2-PC-Neodymium-Magnets-N42SH-OD2.00XID1.75XL1.0-X45-Degree.html

So, now I have the magnets for NeoMag8 on order, better get back to shredding metal...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 08, 2011, 01:03:09 PM
OK, now spotting DiaMag8...

I have all the plates and the sacrificial block squared up with the fence.
I am using a regular 1/8 inch drill bit for spotting this time.  The 1/8"
mill that I normally use only has a 3/8 inch length of cut.  The stack
of DiaMag8 plates is 1/2 inch thick and I want to punch down into
the sacrificial block as well.  This is also the tallest stack of plates
that I have put on the Palmgren Table.  I am just about at the limit
of the vertical clearance on my Mini Mill setup...

The fence was very helpful in getting the workpieces squared up...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 12, 2011, 02:01:14 AM
Finally got the new rotor magnets for DiaMag8...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 13, 2011, 04:52:21 AM
I sliced a one inch section from the aluminum round stock.
Got nicely squared up, and marked up, and sank the shaft hole.
Typically you would want to do this on a lathe, because you
want a shaft to be dead nuts center.  Well, I ain't got a lathe,
so approximated as well as I could with the drill press.  The
runout is about 20 to 30 mils,  which is not great.  I haven't
measured it precisely yet, tho...

Cutting a 1.75 inch piece of bar stock with a hack saw was
super, extra fun too...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 15, 2011, 11:00:30 PM
That first rotor (left) was too wobbly, so I made a couple more.
This time I went to a friends machine shop and used a
lathe to cut the center hole.  No more wobbles.  I also
changed the position and size of the peripheral holes.
They reduce the weight and add ventilation through
the rotor.  I am going to add a small fan on one side of
the rotor to pump air through the rotor for cooling.
Don't want my fancy Neo Mags overheating...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 16, 2011, 02:59:46 AM
Spotting...

I have had a lot of trouble getting this concept...

X marks the spot.  Got to hit it perfect...

All the accuracy hangs on this event.  I've had
a crash course in spotting over this week.  Yeah,
uh, gotta have the right tools.  A spotting drill,
a short, stubby, sharp angled drill/mill can help
you hit those X's with zeal...

Also beware of cheap center punches.  Use a
hardened punch with an angle that matches
your Drill/mill.  Then the dimensional tolerances
can be happy...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 19, 2011, 04:29:47 PM
Got the stack spotted.  The first picture has drills in the 1/4 inch holes to show
parallelism.  Then I bored out the center holes to 1/2 inch individually.  The
stack also pictured there has all four plates on it.  I'll only cut two at a time.
First I'll cut the wire form plates, and then the bearing plates.

This time I am using a 1/2 inch center post in the cutting process.  Same as before
where I'll make a special post I can jam into the table, and that becomes the
fourth axis in the process.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 20, 2011, 06:28:47 PM
Yesterday I ordered some more clamping accessories for the Palmgren
table.  The corner bolts on DiaMag8 are 1/4 inch, and the smallest clamping
studs that I have are 3/8 inch.  Also the smallest hole in the T-Slot Nuts
is 3/8".  I can get T-Slot Nuts that have 1/4 inch nuts, but they are too narrow
for the Palmgren table.  So I bought some threaded inserts that are 3/8-16
outside threads and 1/4-20 inside threads to achieve the goal of having
1/4 inch clamping studs.  Should have those today, and then I can start
cutting the DiaMag8 plates.

In the meanwhile I prepared the Music Wire shafts for the Rotors.  Music
Wire is an extremely hard carbon steel used for shafts.  I had to use a
Tungsten Carbide Grit Saw to cut it.  I mounted the Rotors on the Shafts
with an Interference Fit.  The hole in the Rotor is 0.250 inches and the
Shaft is 0.251 inches.  I ground the Shaft slightly, like 0.0005 inches, and press
fit the Shaft on the Rotor.  That means I held the Rotor in top of the
vise, and tapped the Shaft into the desired position with the Blacksmith
Hammer.  Both Shafts fit well, thoroughly lodged in the Rotors, although
one was slightly easier to mount, slightly smaller shaft.  This way we
don't mess up the balance with a hole and a set screw.  Also no set
screw to come loose and get lost, and no hole play tolerances.  The
Shaft and the Rotor are basically a single piece now.

I was thinking about Temperature Mounting the Rotor and Bearings on
the shaft, but found out that I can't put the sealed bearings in a hot
oil bath (300 degree Fahrenheit Oil) without damaging the seals.  In a
Thermal Mounting Process you would cryogenically freeze the inner part
to negative 300 degrees Fahrenheit and heat the outer part to positive
300 degrees Fahrenheit, and then put them together.  As the differential
temperatures balance the inner part expands and the outer part shrinks,
leaving a tight interference fit between the parts.  I did something similar
but with mechanical force, and not temperature, but the result is the
same.  And, no I didn't mushroom the end of the shaft hitting it with the
Blacksmith Hammer.  The Music Wire Shaft is much harder than the
Blacksmith Hammer.  There are actually dents in the face of the Blacksmith
Hammer now.

So, after getting the Shafts mounted I needed to make some spacers to
act as standoffs for the Bearings.  They are 1/4 inch inside diameter
Aluminum Tubes, 3/8 inch outside diameter, cut to 0.750 inches long.
They fit between the Rotor and the Bearings to provide spacing for
the windings.  Then the Bearings are also interference fitted to the Shaft.
The very last thing to do to the Rotating Assembly is to mount the
Magnet Arc Segments, which I'll do with some Industrial Epoxy.

Also there was the Center Stud I needed to fabricate.  This is a non-standard
method which I am using to get around buying more tools at the moment.
I cut a 3 inch long piece of 1/2-13 threaded rod, a little longer than what
is needed.  Then I ground down about a 1/2 inch of threads on one end in
order for the Center Stud to be able to pass thorough the end of the
T-Slot Nut.  Then it can be jammed into the table to act as the Forth Axis.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 22, 2011, 01:36:03 AM
Here are the Threaded Inserts, and the new Mini Studs.
On the left you can see the T-Slot Nut with the Threaded
insert installed.  There are slots in the top of the threaded
insert for a screwdriver.  Don't do it...  Instead I installed
them with a the hardened stud and flange nut.  Using a
flathead screw driver only messed up the slotted edges,
and I cross threaded one of them.  Using the Stud and
Flange Nut allowed me to use a wrench instead of a screw
driver.  The wrench allowed a much easier insertion.

In the center is the new 1/4 inch Mini Stud T-Slot Nut,
and on the right is a 1/2 inch Stud in a T-Slot Nut.  Also
you can see the difference in the Flange Nuts...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 22, 2011, 02:47:27 AM
Now I have the wire form plates clamped on the table and am
cutting the straight line.  There are 3 clamps holding the work
piece to the table, so its very rigid.  I use the X/Y screws to
line up the cuts, cut a series of holes on the Y axis, and then
run the side mill up and down the slot on the Y axis a couple
of times, adjusting the X axis to cleanup the scallops...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 23, 2011, 07:31:13 PM
Cut the outer radius of the wire form this morning, and started
cutting the slots.  Plan to finish the slots this afternoon and
do the inner radius.  The slots are a lot cleaner when you have
both ends closed at the time of cutting.  After all the slots are
cut I'll open the inside end (inside radius)...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 24, 2011, 05:27:21 PM
OK, got the Wire Form Plates cutout, rough cut anyway.
Now starting on the Bearing Mounting Plates.
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on July 24, 2011, 08:16:42 PM

Kinda reminds me of the layout of the Model T magneto Z...you are really putting a lot into this...hope you find success.

Regards...

Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 25, 2011, 12:15:26 AM
Thanks Cap,
Yeah, its kinda like a Magneto...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 25, 2011, 03:05:13 AM
Since I already had the Radius Jig setup I decided to cut the
radius on the Bearing Plates first.  Then got the Straight Line Jig
setup and started cutting the spars.  This last cut I made is
beautiful.  I cut it wide with a series of end cuts.  Then went back
and side milled the whole line X axis minus 30 mils or so.  Best
slot cut Evar!  Whoo Hoo!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 25, 2011, 04:05:56 AM
Yeah, I think the new process is working out well...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 25, 2011, 05:42:56 PM
There, got the Wire Form Plates cleaned up.  Together with the
assembly studs and the Wire Form Plate spacers they form the
Stator for DiaMag8.  The Bearing Mounting Plates are still clamped
to the Milling Table.  Got a few more cuts there, and then we
can assemble everything and start checking it out...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 26, 2011, 02:58:00 AM
Oh, La la...  Schweet!

DiaMag8 is fabricated...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 27, 2011, 01:59:38 AM
Just now got the Rotor Magnets installed.  That was a sticky situation.
I used 5 minute epoxy.  Got all the magnet lined up on the fridge.
Then spread a thin layer of epoxy on the rotor.  Added a pair of
magnets at a time.  When the ring was complete, I spent the rest
of the cure time cleaning up the goop, and aligning magnets.

After it was cured I fit it in the stator.  The stator was a little off,
and I needed to file down some high spots.  Its still a little funny,
but the rotor spins.  I'll clean it up a little more tomorrow...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 29, 2011, 01:50:41 AM
I had made some holes in periphery of the stator plates.
They accommodate the wire management dowels.  They
help guide the windings where they need to go.  Also
needed to use some spacers to add phatness to the
dowels.  The first winding looks pretty good.  I'll be getting
some more practice in the near future....

I also added the vinyl inserts in the slots, like on DiaMag7,
to isolate the windings from the aluminum parts...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 29, 2011, 10:07:25 PM
OK, got the stator wound.  It probably took a full day to wind it.
I want to find a better way to do the next one.  The wire management
sticks dowels moved around a lot.  I think the wire looks kind of
sloppy around the periphery.  In the slots it looks great.  Some of my
vinyl inserts are dragging on the rotor.  I'll use a side cutter to trim
out the extra bits.  Also got a shot of it assembled...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on July 29, 2011, 11:17:29 PM

Certainly looks mean Z...hope its a success for you.

Regards...

Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 30, 2011, 12:38:45 AM
Hey Cap,
Like angry, sinister?

Insert righteous political outrage here...

If you ask my wife, its a toy, that and all the tools, just toys...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: DreamThinkBuild on July 30, 2011, 12:55:01 AM
Excellent work Z.Monkey,

That looks to be a pure labor of love, in the mechanical sense. :)
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on July 30, 2011, 01:38:38 AM
Thanks DTB,
Electromechanical, LOL!
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on August 02, 2011, 12:32:57 PM
Got the inside of the stator cleaned up and wired the coils to a terminal block.
The coils are wired in series.  Driven with the battery power drill at 1400 RPM,
it produced about 5 Volts open circuit.  Then driven with the Dremmel tool at
30,000 RPM produced about 22 Volts open circuit.  The rotor is slightly out of
balance, and produced considerable vibration at 30,000 RPM.  So, I need to
get the rotor balanced before I try that again...

The voltages are a little better than the DiaMag7, but I think the current is
going to be the real improvement.  There is a lot more pole area on the rotor
which should, in turn, produce more current.  Next task is to build an adequate
load...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on August 18, 2011, 04:29:09 PM
Dig and you shall receive...

I found this document about shaft and rotor balancing on the interwebz.
It looks very thorough, covers static and dynamic balancing, and even
field balancing, as well as all the math involved.  Since I don't have a shaft
balancing machine I will have to use static balancing to balance the
DiaMag8 rotor.  Basically I need to build a non-magnetic  stand to hold the
ends of the shaft.  The seats where the shaft rides have to be ultra low
friction so the heavy point of the rotor will fall to the bottom.  Then I
can remove a bit on material from the heavy side, and try the balance
again.  This process continues until there is no perceptible heavy spot
on the rotor...

Here is the download page...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=481
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on September 08, 2011, 03:00:17 PM
http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/09/diamag8-test-platform.html

This is a repost.  Nutshelled, got the rotor balanced.  Drill is too slow,
Dremel is too fast.  in the process of building a variable speed alternator test platform...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on September 10, 2011, 02:12:48 PM
looking good z.monkey, soon the fun shall continue hopefully with no more aluminum shower ;)
Thanks Webby,
Would you like some fresh grated aluminum with your test?
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: Hope on September 10, 2011, 05:02:08 PM
Your Mag Alternator is a work of art Z!   Nice job.

This is how the out come of the energetic forum bifilar coil works, it is finally working out and making production beyond the input.  You will see in an instant how to adapt the concept to your projects so I am including it here for all.


Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on September 15, 2011, 01:54:34 AM
Thanks Hope, I think I hooked up DiaMag6 that way.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9220.msg264813#msg264813

Working on the platform now.  I'm making some tongue in groove right angle
brackets to hold the motor/alternator plate, and the platform base together.

http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/09/scrap-bar-clamps.html
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on September 19, 2011, 01:59:22 PM
Been clearing space, deconstructing old stuff scavenging what I need to
build the new stuff.  Got the groove cut in the piece of 1.25 inch square
pine to be the meat of the right angle brackets.  Then made some triangles
with 3/8" plywood...
http://scientilosopher.blogspot.com/2011/09/groovy-brackets.html
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 02, 2011, 09:18:11 AM
Building the pedestal for the test plate.  I mitered some
square pine stock for a frame.  Then glued and screwed
the pedestal base together.  Cleaned up the groovy
brackets, and glued them together.  Then test fit the
motor/alternator plate.  Looks good so far...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 02, 2011, 11:13:06 AM
Aqua-VI
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 03, 2011, 12:59:24 PM
Mounting the motor plate here, and then adding the electric controls
for variable voltage and current...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: energia9 on October 03, 2011, 03:35:45 PM
Aqua-VI

i love your work Z Monkey, you are doing continous work on your idea, this is what overunity people should all do... keep up the nice work my friend....
what are your future goals?

peace
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 22, 2011, 06:28:38 PM
Thanks energia9,

I wish I had more time to devote to my projects.  Unfortunately I have many things to maintain, and over the past few weeks I have had to spend most of my time on my day job.  I am working towards making an actual product that I can sell, and turn that into a business.  Then maybe I can shed the day job.  This sounds simple enough, but it is a little harder than you might think.  The day job parallels my projects, so this is good in that the experience I gain there benefits my projects, and in my spare time at work I can work on my projects.  Slow progress is still good progress...

So, the Test Platform is coming along good.  I built a speed control board for controlling the voltage to the motor which is driving the DiaMag8 Alternator.  I want to overdrive the motor, so I built a 24 volt battery pack.  Then I can adjust the voltage going to the motor with the speed control board.  The motor is rated at 12 volts and I am wanting to take it up to about 18 volts to hit my target speed, which is 3600 RPM.  The label RPM is 2350 at 12 volts.  The pulley ratio is 1 to 2.3, so when the motor is turning 3600 RPM, the Alternator will be turning at 8280 RPM.

My initial design for the speed control didn't quite do what I wanted, and I had to rework it.  Originally I wanted a voltage control and a current control.  But the voltage regulator wasn't providing enough current and the current control just didn't work.  So I reconfigured the voltage regulator to drive the current regulator directly, and now only have one control.  At least now it works, schematic below.

Then there are the battery issues.  Big Sigh!  I had the D Cell battery holders and a bunch of D size batteries that I have used for projects in the past.  These batteries have been in the shop for years, and been used for various other projects and in flashlights, and all of them are mixed, unknown state.  So I get the battery pack put together, go test it, flip the switch and watch the voltage take a dive.  Uulgh...

There are 16 D cell batteries in the battery pack.  i had a thought to go buy new batteries.  I did test all the batteries and weeded out a few dead ones, but even then the battery pack would just barely turn the motor.  At this point I was really frustrated, and just walked away from it.  The next day I found a 12 volt 7 Ah sealed lead acid battery that I could use for testing.  So, after reconfiguring the battery I finally got the motor turning.  I am driving the motor directly with the lead acid battery because the voltage is too low to use with the speed control board.  Ultimately I want to replace the D cell batteries with new ones, and then I can use my speed control.

On to the next problem.  At 12 volts the motor is spinning at 2350 RPM, time the pulley ratio of 2.3, is 5400 RPM.  The alternator develops about 18.5 volts AC, open circuit.  This part is good.  The bad part is at this speed the centrifugal force on the aluminum rotor is causing it to stretch, and it is crashing into the stator.  This is extremely frustrating.  I regret using a soft metal on the stator.  I didn't have this problem before with the solid Neodymium rotors, they are very hard, and don't stretch much when taken to extreme RPMs.  So, now I have to take apart the DiaMag8, again, and try to increase the clearances around the rotor without damaging the windings.  Without the windings this would be relatively easy, just a mater of filing down the stator.  But doing this with the windings in there is kind of precarious.  Worst case scenario if I damage the windings is I will have to unwind and rewind the stator.  So, hopefully I can be intrepid enough to increase the clearances without damaging the windings...

So, getting there, very slowly...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 23, 2011, 01:15:46 AM
Doh!

Found the problem...

I was all busy filing down the stator, and not making a difference.  I was looking at the rotor very carefully while it spun up.  I could see a definitive point where the rotor jumped up an hit the stator.  That's weird, why doesn't it expand gradually increase in diameter.  Why does it suddenly jump up like that.  Then I started inspecting the rotor.  The damn epoxy failed.  The magnet are loose, and when the centrifugal force exceeds the magnetic attraction the magnet pops out and hits the rotor, making a nasty grinding sound...

Forksocks!  This is exactly why I typically secure the magnets using hardware and not glue....

Aaargh!  Well, now I know.  The smooth surfaces of the metal make for a not so good bonding surface, and the epoxy was the 5 minute variety, so there is the very good chance the epoxy would fail.  Damnzit!  These radial segment have no other way to secure them.  No screw holes...

Looks like I'll have to use to industrial epoxy to get them to stick...

Well, at least I found the problem...

BTW, killed the Dremel Tool grinding the stator.  Yay!  Gotta buy another tool...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 23, 2011, 06:56:45 PM
Still having problems with the rotor, but I did get them to stick long enough to run a test.  I had found that two of the magnets had popped loose.  Eager to test, I glued the two loose magnets back on using the same 5 minute epoxy.  While I was testing another magnet popped loose.  But I did get to run it, get a video, and finally start to realize the potential of DiaMag8.

For this test I am hooking up the motor directly to the 12 Volt battery, no speed control.  The output of the alternator is around 15.5 Volts open circuit.  Then I am using a 1 to 10 step up transformer to boost the voltage up to where I can power a 120 Volt bulb.  The output voltage of the transformer is 151 Volts open circuit, and around 71 Volts loaded with a 10 Watt 120 Volt bulb.  While the test was running another magnet popped loose and crashed into the stator.  Uulgh, so I need to rework the rotor, again...

Here's teh video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsOjhwYOQ4U&feature=channel_video_title
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 29, 2011, 03:19:20 AM
OK, reworking the rotor...

First I had to break off all the magnets.  Not surprisingly this was not too difficult.  The cheap 5 minute epoxy was not too hard to break.  I used a chisel and the palm of my hand to break the magnets loose, blech...  Then I needed to remove the failed epoxy from the magnets and rotor.  Mainly I was able to do this with my fingernails, double blech...

I figured I could increase the adhesion on the rotor by roughing up the surface of the rotor.  So, I chucked up the rotor in the drill press, and used a coarse rasp to rough it up.  This action also removed any old residual epoxy from the rotor.  The process also removed some aluminum from the rotor.

This time I am using an industrial grade marine epoxy.  Its viscosity is greater, and hopefully the adhesion is greater.  I reassembled the rotor clamp jig that I used before to hold the rotor while I am gluing the magnets.  Its basically just a couple of scrap 2x4s clamped to the bench.  Then I used some cable clamps to hold the ends of the shaft to the 2x4s.  I get all the magnets lined up on the fridge to help the process when I am sticking the magnets to the gooped up rotor.  The epoxy working time is 50 minutes for this variety, so I am not too worried about time.

Then the epoxy gets mixed and schmered evenly across the outside diameter of the rotor.  Its a good idea to get the epoxy as evenly distributed as possible to get all the magnets coated evenly.  Then I start applying the magnets, taking care to get them in order, NSNSNSNS.  The magnets will let you know if they are in the wrong order because they will not want to sit next to each other if you get like poles next to each other accidentally.  After placing the magnets I spend a while cleaning the excess epoxy off the rotor and magnets.  This epoxy sets in 50 minutes, but I am going to let it cure for a full 24 hours before I spin the rotor.  Just trying to get a full, solid cure before I put any stress on it.

Can't wait till tomorrow night...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 29, 2011, 04:45:51 AM
Here is a better detail view of the 2nd Rotor Assembly...
Title: Re: Dia. Mag. Alternator
Post by: z.monkey on October 30, 2011, 11:19:27 AM
The new rotor is working good...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AlMPDWqAMA