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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: Teutates on May 23, 2010, 05:28:53 AM

Title: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: Teutates on May 23, 2010, 05:28:53 AM
First and foremost I would like to acknowledge John Collins before presenting this idea.  Without his translations this idea would never have come to mind.

I seriously considered the patent route on this (yes I honestly believe this will work)...  but the two year timeframe, the lack of money to invest in prototyping, and the diligence and dedication I have seen here by some other members convinced me otherwise.  While considering options I took into consideration eye witness accounts,  Bessler's comment "any carpenter can do it", and Bessler's other work and codes...  well I came up with this....   notice the arms (or legs) of the wheel...  not a true number 5.... but the only shape I could come up with that could be considered a 5 and provide benefit to the design.  From there I followed a logical process of ideas based on what I knew of Bessler from reading and came up with a method that I honestly believe will work.  I would gladly build this myself as I do have the skills .... but a recent relocation due to employment difficulties has left me with very little resources and tools.  I do ask if someone turns this into reality that they remember where the idea came from and give credit where it is due.


Steven Ellis
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: Teutates on May 23, 2010, 06:06:42 AM
I couple of additional comments before I go to bed...

I have tested the weight spring lock around a 90 degree angle ...  it will remain in position until the 6 or 12 o'clock rotation is achieved...  with significantly more force from the spring then is required to raise the weight.

Bessler never had to deal with metal fatigue.....  best case situation the springs might last 3 to six months tops....

I believe the outer pendulum... was attached to an inner arm that rested against the main shaft... to provide braking.   Centrifugal force could destroy the movements necessary to maintain functionality

Tommorrow,  if I have time I will post a working description of how I believe the wheel would function.

Steve
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: Teutates on May 23, 2010, 02:40:13 PM
Further proof Bessler used springs

If you refer to first hand accounts of his device...   weights were approximately 4 pounds.   Height or diameter of the wheel was 4 feet, and revolutions per min were approximately 50 per minute.  Take those numbers,  goto this site

http://www.calctool.org/CALC/phys/newtonian/centrifugal      plug the numbers in (make sure you change to the appropriate type of weights and distances).  The calculated force...  over 6 lb/foot,  a weight would never leave the outer edge of its travel without assistance.
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: AB Hammer on May 23, 2010, 03:08:09 PM
Teutates

 Interesting approach, and I look forward to you next description, so I can fully visualize your intent. As a Blacksmith/Armorer I have allot of experience with ancient technology from before and through Bessler's time.

Alan
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: Teutates on May 24, 2010, 02:01:26 AM
sorry for the delay time has been short today... and I had a new thought I needed to work through...  Bessler said if I knew how to left 16 weights with 4.....    and I realized the spring mechanism was a bit two complex... two equally balanced springs weight equal on top, might have been a bit to advanced at that day and age...  not to mention the uncoiling of the spring would have made movement and setting the system a bit two complex... remember a simple carpenter could do it.. .. Simple mechanical process... if you want to lift 16 (four pound weights) with 4 (four pound weights)  you use a lever that is 4 times longer on one end.... 
Hence we now have the lever spring as shown
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: Teutates on May 24, 2010, 02:11:57 AM
ok... in Bessler's Poem on his wheels (excuse the paraphrasing) he said greed is bad....  two fast a rotation and centrifugal force will cause the weights to always be on the out side of the wheel is one interpretation of that phrase.  I also believe that another interpretation is that seeking and expecting optimal location of your weights around the wheel is not going to work either.   If you think of a wheel rotating clockwise and divide the sections of the wheel into hours like a clock then you realize that 1 min after twelve the optimal position of the weight would be on the outer edge of the wheel...  and at 1 min after 6 pm it would be as close to the center as possible.   the natural location of the weight wants to be in the exact opposite location.  I believe we can agree that the weights between the 3 to 6 o'clock as well as 9 to 12 o'clock position behave the way we want them to... So if greed is bad... then what we want as an optimal position for the weights isn't possible...  but what do we really need.  We need for the weight when in the 12 to 3  o'clock position to further out from the center of the hub then the opposite weight that resides in the 6 to 9 o'clock position.
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: Teutates on May 24, 2010, 03:20:15 AM
Ok... explanation # 1

Keep  in mind we are only trying to provide enough imbalance to get us back to the profitable rotational times between 3:00 and 6:00.  The following diagrams shows where everything is at when an arm is frozen at the 12 oclock position...
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: Teutates on May 24, 2010, 03:25:16 AM
and what happens between the 12:01 and 1:30 timeframes....   (also keep in mind the opposite arm is doing the reverse....).  The reversal of the weight position occurs when typically the greatest amount of de-acceleration occurs  (hope the concept comes across.... and sorry I know the lever springs arn't quite accurately displayed....  visio $#$%$#$%^^^)
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: helicoil on May 24, 2010, 05:36:31 AM
 I like your theory, in a way you have probably, also shown a clearer picture of abelings design, How the weights work in pairs,
from what i make of your design, it has similar features to my interpretation of how the abeling wheel works, i never thought of using a coil spring.
  i was intending to use a falling weight to slingshot another, via a levered pulley system, (this weight would actually need to leave the wheel,
as it leaves  the wheel its shot downwards, which then shots its paired weight a shorter distance).
the abeling wheel uses similar slots, the curved and hockey stick slots, you notice they are not both shown together on a wheel, ("unless they are somehow 2 linked wheels") on the patent diagrams.
  when viewing the patent diagrams, you would assume that all 16 weights are running up a ramp, being shot into a slot, due to the rotation of the wheel,
i'm not sure if abelings wheel uses a ramp, may be used as a helping guide.
 as you may notice, as in your diagrams, the position of 1 of the paired weights, during the wheel rotation could resemble a weight traveling up a ramp,
still trying to figure out whether the ramp helps guide a weight, or is used in a way to stop CF pushing the weight outwards, then use this force to help turn the wheel , similar to a cam

 too many ideas, not enough time
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: pese on May 24, 2010, 12:55:19 PM
Very interesting construchtion !!!


I find now in overuinity.de

an interesting russian construction,
würking with inner the wheel floating water level !
 

use google.com to translate

copy the link in the language tool.

http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=655.msg9698#msg9698
 


http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.de%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D655.msg9698%23msg9698&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: AB Hammer on May 24, 2010, 02:10:20 PM
Greetings pese

 That is a very interesting approach as well. I don't see perpetuation but it could become a device that can add torque to a slower system by reaction.

Alan
Title: Re: Bessler's Wheel.....
Post by: Teutates on May 25, 2010, 02:24:58 AM
1:30 to 3:00 ( and the opposite arm 7:30 to 9:00)  Sorry no time for pictures...   ok... this time frame is what I believe Bessler was referring to in his Apologia Poetica......

a large herd of fat, lazy,
plump horses wanders aimlessly.
The flail wants to be with the
thresher, not with the scholar

The flail is the weight attached to the spring arm via a chain or cable (wiki flail and you will see the correlation)

The fat lazy horses....  are the weights and counter weights during this position... both the counterweight and the weight will want to go home to the center of the hub but due to the angle of the track the counterweight has a slight advantage... thus the flail will want to be with the thresher.... out in the fields so to say... not at home or inside with the scholar... these weights will go back and forth as they fight for dominance....  seeming to wander aimlessly....
Finally at 3:00 the weight comes to rest where we want it... in the out side leg
Steve