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Author Topic: Mehess Motor  (Read 81180 times)

Offline billmehess

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #195 on: August 08, 2007, 05:21:20 PM »
I will post a web site by tomorrow morning and let the chips fall where they may. In the mean time KMA.

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #195 on: August 08, 2007, 05:21:20 PM »

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #196 on: August 08, 2007, 05:30:26 PM »
KYA?  I assume you are suggesting homosexual anal osculation...Uhmmm...no thank you.  I don't roll that way.  Sorry you are taking reality so hard.  It's really better to learn and laugh.  Believe me, being self-taught and having worked directly with several rather world-famous inventors, I have learned plenty while being the brunt of my own jokes.  You have to lighten up, Bill.

Regarding posting your own websites and chips falling...well...the chips have fallen long ago.  It's picking them up and doing something useful with them that counts!  By the way...try to pick up the fewest chips and, putting them together in the simplest way, accomplish the maximum benefit.  That's the game.  I fail to see what benefit posting more Rube Goldburg stuff on another site will have but carry on, dear sir.  Do what you do with confidence and vigor.  It's good exercise even if it's bad science!
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 06:12:36 PM by Humbugger »

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #197 on: August 08, 2007, 07:03:06 PM »
Bill...

If you had a friend, a good friend, who was jazzed about building an alcohol fuel rendering plant on his farm and he laid out the following plan to you, asking you what you thought about helping him, what would you say to him?

The plan to get free electricity...there is a large pond of water and a big cliff rising above it where the farm is.  He owns it all.  His idea is to use an electric motorized pump to pump water through a four inch pipe up the cliff and then pour it over a waterfall with a paddlewheel which would drive a generator and a mechanical pump used in the process of distilling and refining the alcohol.  The generator would be a little bigger in electrical rating than the 4 inch water pump motor at the water pond, so he figures the generator will run the water pump for free and then some. 

He's excited that he's finally solved his problematic electric bill for running the process pump (now run for free directly off the waterwheel) which used to ruin the overall profit margin on his distilling operation.  He wants you to help him pick out the most efficient and correctly-rated generator and pump motor and design for the waterwheel and any gearing required.

What do you do?  Well, twenty five years ago, this actually happened to me.  Boy was he hard to convince.  It was really tough, because he had been working on his alcohol production facility for a long time and had a lot of money invested and tons of work before he sadly discovered that the electric bill to run the thing cost more than he was getting for the alcohol even though he got the corn, process water and stale bread base ingredients free.

He then spent a ton of time talking with his beer-buddies who encouraged him in his idea for the waterfall even to the extent of doing a lot of excavating and laying the pipe and pouring some concrete footings and a spillway and laying out a huge plastic tarp to prevent leakage into the soil, etc.  This enormous project was done on the sadly mistaken belief that the power taken from a generator was simply determined by the rating and size (BIGGER MAGNETS).  All his drinkin' buddies encouraged him, helped him do the work and egged him on.

He never asked anyone who understood these subtle things about torque and reflected mechanical load depending on electrical load (and vice versa for the motor) and conservation of energy principles and practical hard-reality matters like inevitable systemic losses.  Nope...it was all in how the motor and generator were rated and the shape and configuration of the waterwheel, as far as he and his buddies figured.  Of course, those minor details were left for the very end of this four year $250,000 project.  That's when he called me. 

Did he really have to build it to find out how it would work?  Was he justified in cursing me out and actually slugging me in the chops when I told him it wasn't going to work?  Was it worth losing a friendship over?  Had his pals who encouraged and helped him really done him a favor?  Was he right to think that even if it wasn't 100% or better efficient, that it would still be helpful and reduce his overall electric bill?  Would it have been practical if he just put a hand crank on it to help out and make up for any small losses?

NO NO NO NO NO NO and NO.  Think a lot and build a little.  That's the lesson here.  Ask some people who have built things before that worked and sold lots of copies.  Run your ideas in front of people who might laugh at them; not just your cronies and drinkin' pals who are happy to help but know no more than you do.  Getting ten more guys to agree that an idea might work doesn't increase the workability of the idea!  Be pragmatic and practical.  Know the rules before you play the game.  This is a 100% true story.

The whole fiasco ended up costing him his farm, his marriage, about $259,000 cash and a huge amount of blood sweat and tears.  He wouldn't speak to me for over a year.  Talk about killing the messenger! 

And it all started out as a fun hobby project.  Larry is still divorced, runs a small limosine service and sings country western semi-professionally.  He gave up on the alcohol plan.  We're friends again, but sometimes I think he still resents me just a wee bit and suspects that if he had just spent another six months and another $25,000 he might be filthy rich now and still have his farm. 

I remember that just before he slugged me he yelled "Kiss My Ass".


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #197 on: August 08, 2007, 07:03:06 PM »
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Offline acp

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #198 on: August 08, 2007, 07:09:50 PM »
Humbugger, these are some of the best posts I've ever read on this forum.

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #199 on: August 08, 2007, 08:05:09 PM »
Thank you.  I fear I may have hurt poor Bill's feelings.  I've spent the last year or so reading everything on the web regarding free energy.  As a retired equipment designer who has had to deal with actual practical reality all my working life and who learned almost everything the hard way, most of everything I've been reading disgusts me.  The blind leading the blind...the self-made gurus of long drawn out empty promises...the total lack of clear disclosure in most cases and the naive willingness and eager enthusiasm of the anxious replicators.  Sometimes it's all too much for me.

I've never posted single word before today.  I guess it all came out and I'm afraid old Bill was the unlucky recipient of my version of the hard truth.  Lest you all out there think I'm just a negative trolling asshole, I should say that, well...maybe I am.  I'm not "a believer", that's for sure.  Maybe Bill was too easy a "victim" being that he does pretty much say exactly what he's doing, unlike most of the "mystery gurus". 

My scathing critique was truly intended to help him and others see that stacking levers and pendulums and coils and magnets higher and higher in evermore complicated schemes and then talking at great length about them without really stating any particular goals or even using correct technical language to describe the energy flow is probably not bringing anyone any closer to "free energy" or any kind of technological learning or advancement.  He's confused, I fear, about Power, Time and Energy, in general.

It seems like Bill also goes rapidly back and forth between claiming free energy ["I can produce enough flow to in 31 days rewind the movement as well a plenty left over to light a bulb."]  and disclaiming OU ["First I am not claiming ou as I stated."].

I just wanted to make sure he understands the relationship between Power, Time and Energy.  They are not terms that can be loosely interchanged or discussed usefully without adhering to their actual meanings.  When I read that he had enough output energy but just not for a long enough time, I knew he was not understanding Energy and Power and Time the same way I have learned to understrand them.

Now he's seeming bitter and angry determined to prove me wrong by posting a video.  Well, I'm not sure that he has yet stated what it is exactly he wants to prove and I'm rather certain, because of that, that he won't succeed in proving anything at least to me except maybe that he's taking his chase for energy guru status just a bit too seriously. 

Sorry, Bill.  I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.  Scientists, at least the best ones, and design engineers, especially, have a barrel of laughs at their own expense.  It's the best way to learn!  I've had a million crazy unworkable ideas. 

How good you are as a designer/inventor/creator/engineer/scientist often depends directly on how rapidly and effectively you can sort the wheat from the chaff among your own ideas so that you don't spend precious emperical time experimenting and building bad systems to find out they don't perform well. 

Not knowing what you are trying to achieve always slows the process of judging performance.  Often to a dead halt.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #199 on: August 08, 2007, 08:05:09 PM »
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Offline tropes

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #200 on: August 08, 2007, 08:09:04 PM »
Well Humbugger, you certainly have given us some "food for thought" laced with wake-up pills.
Tropes

Offline billmehess

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #201 on: August 08, 2007, 08:26:02 PM »
First let me apologize for the KMA comment that was done in the heat of the moment. I have been reading this site for quite a while I to have been dejected by the large amount of bad science that I have seen. The latest being the Steorn
fiasco.
The whole idea of this site is to present a form so that new ideas can be proposed. Concepts that were once thought
to be unworkable or even heresy are accept facts today.
I remember once in this thread some time back where a person stated that if they could get free energy they would not mind having to rewind the system periodically manually. Again this device is not ou. But because of that does it not have any value?
Again I can keep a LED running indifinitly and what is required is a 10-15 second manual action once every 8 days.
I see this if scaled up a power source that is not area specific. That's it no more or no less.
Ideas stand and fall on their own merit , in this group we keep proposing new concepts and new roads to travel.
This allows off shoots of ideas to come into play and maybe develop into something totally different from our original concept.
The Wright Brothers first flight was 120', hardly breath taking and at the time considered almost worthless. Thomas Edison went throught thousands of filaments before finding the one that would work the list could go on and on.
I will post the site by tomorrow morning, I don't like utube because on a site I can post some hard data.
I don't agree with Humbugger on most on what he said but he has all the right in the world to say it.
Lets don't keep bantering about on this its counterproductive and serves no purpose.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #201 on: August 08, 2007, 08:26:02 PM »
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Offline tinu

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #202 on: August 08, 2007, 08:46:59 PM »
Humbugger, these are some of the best posts I've ever read on this forum.

Count me for it too.
But Bill was hit repeatedly. I did it first (check my posts on pages 20-21) and I did it hard.
Now it?s happening again. 
I guess it was just bad luck.

Bill, you can?t just remove the dark.
For that to happen, light has to be brought in.
From my point of view, your experiments are welcome as long as you do not advertise a successful device while it is actually far, far from that.

Tinu
?In the absence of light, dark prevails?

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #203 on: August 08, 2007, 09:20:25 PM »
My Theory of OU and Free Energy:

There ain't none to be had...

Believe me...I want to get all manic and excited one more last time in my life and throw myself fully into some insane project I just know will save the world and make me incredibly rich and famous. 

I just can't bring myself to believe that perpetual motion or free energy or overunity or zeropoint energy is going to pan out as any kind of useful reality.  Sorry!

I think it's all one huge group delusion fueled further by a multi-faceted yet disorganized scam and a quackery-laced fraud arena that detracts greatly from the hard work and creative energy it will take to actually solve the world's real problems.  I would really appreciate being proven wrong.  But it ain't happened yet!

HELP!  I'm a cynical old pragmatist and I can't get up!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 12:33:49 PM by Humbugger »

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #203 on: August 08, 2007, 09:20:25 PM »
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Offline Humbugger

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #204 on: August 08, 2007, 10:21:52 PM »
Bill...I accept your apology.  I apologize for hurting your feelings.  However, as a practical matter of fact, researchers, scientist and engineers must avoid falling blindly in love with their ideas or they are doomed to oblivion.  Thus, it is recommended for good health and rapid progress that one be forced to eat crow immediately upon making a foolish statement. 

And learn to laugh it off...don't react defensively.  This is not an attack.  Your oscilloscope isn't insulting you when it says 32V 128MHz Sine wave just because you expected or hoped for 74V 4GHz square waves!  It's just being frank and honest!

Quote:  "I remember once in this thread some time back where a person stated that if they could get free energy they would not mind having to rewind the system periodically manually".  Don't you see how absolutely silly that statement is?  It's no different than me saying "I really like to eat a free lunch and I don't mind paying for it".

Quote:  "Again this device is not ou. But because of that does it not have any value?"  No, the reason it has no value is that there are far simpler, easier, minimal-element, reliable, existing, cheap ways of accomplishing the exact same results.  That's what makes it not worth pursuing further.  It only gets worse if you scale it up.

I guess I have an unfair advantage here because I have spent the last 40 years evaluating my own ideas on how a given goal should be accomplished using technology.  It is instantly obvious to me that your method has way more elements and is far more complicated than it needs to be to maintain a very dimly lit LED for eight days with only 15 seconds of hand-cranking effort or whatever.  Therefore, I reject it as a practical, sellable, useful approach to the problem as defined. 

That doesn't mean you couldn't sell it!  I see you have quite a few interested folks right here.  It just wouldn't be an approach I personally would consider for more than 12 nanoseconds.  What I'm curious to see is how you "prove" it works for eight days in a few minutes of video!

Quote "I don't agree with Humbugger on most on what he said".  I'm curious about any assertion I have made being incorrect, controversial or plain false.  Can you be specific about what you disagree with me on?  Other than matters of pure speculative opinion I may have expressed (obviously, you don't agree yet that your approach is silly...I understand that), is there any disagreement on my factual purport?

Quote "Lets don't keep bantering about on this its counterproductive and serves no purpose"  My comments are meant to be fairly general and apply to virtually every device I've read about on this entire forum and the whole of the web.  If that's what you are referring to when you say "this", then I would have to say that my "banter" is intended to be productive of reason and scientific critical thinking in general and definitely serves that important purpose. 

If you don't want to talk to me any more, I understand completely.  I wish you good luck and God speed in your experiments and endeavors! 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 10:46:03 PM by Humbugger »

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #205 on: August 08, 2007, 10:56:19 PM »
Humbugger, these are some of the best posts I've ever read on this forum.

Count me for it too.
But Bill was hit repeatedly. I did it first (check my posts on pages 20-21) and I did it hard.
Now it?s happening again. 
I guess it was just bad luck.

Bill, you can?t just remove the dark.
For that to happen, light has to be brought in.
From my point of view, your experiments are welcome as long as you do not advertise a successful device while it is actually far, far from that.

Tinu
?In the absence of light, dark prevails?



I am with you on this Tinu, having read your posts now...one little correction though...you said a few posts back:

". Capacitors do not charge linear in tension. That is, for you to understand, if you get 200mv in the first minute, you get ALWAYS les than 200mv in the second minute, even lesser in the third and so on, so on. This is not a matter of ?what if?, to find a clever solution to it. This is the bottom line. ALWAYS. Period."

What you say is true when a capacitor is charged from a voltage source through a resistor.  It is not true at all when charging a capacitor from a constant current source, in which case you do get a perfectly linear voltage/time ramp on the capacitor.  This is how all analog sawtooth and triangle waves are generated! ;)

Just keeping the teacher honest!  You will surely do the same for me sometime.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 12:11:01 AM by Humbugger »

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #205 on: August 08, 2007, 10:56:19 PM »
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Offline tinu

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #206 on: August 09, 2007, 12:19:11 AM »

What you say is true when a capacitor is charged from a voltage source through a resistor.  It is not true at all when charging a capacitor from a constant current source, in which case you do get a perfectly linear voltage/time ramp on the capacitor.  This is how all analog sawtooth and triangle waves are generated! ;)

Just keeping the teacher honest!  You will surely do the same for me sometime.

Of course you?re right!
And I thought for a long time that the statement will end remaining unnoticed. Not many pay attention to what is really written or if they do, fewer really understand and even lesser will bother to answer. I?m glad you did.

My rationale was:
a) given the state of learning at that stage, I thought it would have been too much for a first lesson;
b) coils (and circuit composed of passive elements, in general) does not provide the functional basis for building (or actually for assembling, by pure luck) a constant current source. Even the addition of some non-linear elements (i.e. diodes) is not going to be enough for building one. The use of transistors or other command elements was not mentioned?
c) there is an approximation, for high input voltage and very low currents & low voltage on the load, and in this case one large resistor is good enough for the cheapest  approximation of a constant current source. But the emf of a small coil driven by a low-speed moving magnet is only a couple of Volts at max and the approximation will not hold above a couple of mV (at best) on the load. This was not the case either.

Did I make up for my previous quilt by omission?
Thanks again for your attention!

Tinu

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #207 on: August 09, 2007, 01:31:13 AM »
Dear Bill,

I have just listened to your audio interview and now I see where your thinking went awry beyond this time-power-energy problem you've been having.  Even though the interviewer tries to raise the issue several times, you boldly beat it down and insist that "only the weight on the pendulum" matters.

Have you no clue that the electrical load on the coil will mechanically load the pendulum as the magnet swings through it?  If there is no load (open coil), then there will be no mechanical resistance offered by the coil as the magnet swings through it.  At the other extreme, if you short the coil, there will clearly be a mechanical loading imposed on the magnet, as if it were going through invisible molasses rather than air. 

The amount of this mechanical load is proportional to the degree of coupling between the coil and magnet (strength of the magnet and how close they are spaced and the ability of the coil to intersect all of the magnet's flux lines) and the electrical load placed externally on the coil. 

Did you think that it was just as hard to turn the shaft of a standard rotary generator when nothing was plugged into it as when it was fully loaded to capacity electrically?  Have you never seen or heard a motor/generator set "bog down and grunt" as electrical loads are added?  There is nothing different about your generator, except it probably has a much lower coupling coefficient than a well-designed standard rotary unit, so you don't notice any loading effects.  Try the old experiment of dropping one of your powerful neo magnets down a long thick-walled copper tube if you don't believe me...it won't free-fall!  The copper tube is like a shorted one-turn coil. 

Or take a big long-throw woofer with a huge magnet and a "high compliance" long-throw suspension...push the cone in rapidly with no load and then do the same with the terminals shorted.  You will feel a big difference in mechanical resistance.

What you have described are six basic systems.  First you have a wound up spring.  These are quite efficient and have very low loss over time as energy storage goes...maybe even better than a super high quality low leakage capacitor.   Still, you cannot get more energy out than you put in. 

Next you have a complex multi-element system that converts rotary torque stored in the spring into pendulum swing.  That's pretty efficient possibly, too, although certainly less so than the spring itself.  Always you will get less total energy (work) out of the swinging pendulum than the spring puts into it via the mechanism.

Thirdly, you have your magnet/coil generator.  No matter what magnet you use or how beautifully you couple the coil to the field and no matter the shape or orientation of the setup, you will NEVER get more electrical energy out of the coil than the mechanical energy it takes to move the magnet through the coil, which IS dependent on the electrical load (unless you stick an AC-driven coil or another moving magnet nearby).  In this part of your setup you have several loss mechanisms, mechanical friction including wind resistance, back-emf of the coil's load path fighting the freedom of the magnet to swing through as described above (Lenz's Law) and less-than-perfect coupling between magnet and coil.  The last two, happily, work oppositely.  Tight coupling helps give you more forward charge per swing but also makes back emf worse; loose coupling eases back emf but worsens forward power generation for a given magnet and coil setup.

Fourth, you have your rectifier diode, a back-check valve to prevent the return swing of the magnet and the DC path of the coil from discharging your capacitor...a major lossy element if it's dropping 200mv while pumping your cap up by only 3mv each pulse...very big loss here!

Fifth, you have your capacitor which has equivalent parallel (leakage) and series resistances, both of which represent energy losses although they can be fairly small drains if you use exceedingly good quality expensive caps.

Finally, you have your spring-re-cranking motor.  Very lossy most likely...probably 40-75% efficient at best.

So...where is the extra energy introduced?  Well sir, it simply isn't.  All you are accomplishing here is to play a shell-game using power, energy and time.   You laugh on the the interview at how obvious it must be to everyone that anything charging a capacitor, even a little bit at a time, if left to do so for eight days or thirty days would clearly have the capability of pumping your spring-winding motor for a mere 15 seconds once a month!  Yet if you use simple math and basic electrical and mechanical formulae, you will find, every time, that it takes more energy to rewind that spring than you got from unwinding it!  Even if Lenz's law were repealed just for you, your scheme wouldn't be overunity. 

That one very sad fact of life and your assertion that the coils' electrical loads do not mechanically load the pendulum (Lenz's law)...those are your downfalls in understanding your own invention.  Relax...you share these very basic misconceptions with a huge crowd of other "inventors" on the web here.

I do confess to not having read each and every post in this thread, front to back.  Maybe someone has already pointed all of this out to you and it seems to you I'm just rubbing it in.  Sorry if that's the way you see it or if these sad revelations have been stated and understood previously. 

It was truly heartbreaking for me to hear how enthusiastic and sure you were as you proclaimed how easy and simple and clever and new and different (and over-unity for sure) your invention was.  Please don't fall prey to a horrible deep depression now, okay?  Laugh it off.  Live and learn.  We all have to live in the same harsh reality eventually.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 02:14:14 AM by Humbugger »

Offline Humbugger

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #208 on: August 09, 2007, 01:40:33 AM »

What you say is true when a capacitor is charged from a voltage source through a resistor.  It is not true at all when charging a capacitor from a constant current source, in which case you do get a perfectly linear voltage/time ramp on the capacitor.  This is how all analog sawtooth and triangle waves are generated! ;)

Just keeping the teacher honest!  You will surely do the same for me sometime.

Of course you?re right!
And I thought for a long time that the statement will end remaining unnoticed. Not many pay attention to what is really written or if they do, fewer really understand and even lesser will bother to answer. I?m glad you did.

My rationale was:
a) given the state of learning at that stage, I thought it would have been too much for a first lesson;
b) coils (and circuit composed of passive elements, in general) does not provide the functional basis for building (or actually for assembling, by pure luck) a constant current source. Even the addition of some non-linear elements (i.e. diodes) is not going to be enough for building one. The use of transistors or other command elements was not mentioned?
c) there is an approximation, for high input voltage and very low currents & low voltage on the load, and in this case one large resistor is good enough for the cheapest  approximation of a constant current source. But the emf of a small coil driven by a low-speed moving magnet is only a couple of Volts at max and the approximation will not hold above a couple of mV (at best) on the load. This was not the case either.

Did I make up for my previous quilt by omission?
Thanks again for your attention!

Tinu

Tinu...you had nothing to make up for!  Your guilt was only in being so emphatic and saying Always and Never without qualifying by saying "under your particular set of conditions" or "in your application".  We who try to teach must be careful lest our students lose respect or, worse yet, learn fallacies by misunderstanding the context.

Offline Nastrand2000

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Re: Mehess Motor
« Reply #209 on: August 09, 2007, 05:01:54 AM »
@tinu
@Humbugger

Both of you have yet to show anything but armchairing...(Those that think they are above the rest, so they don't have to build). Before you criticize, maybe you should build something....anything. Of course, it will be easy to berate me with your unfathomable ignorance in this field. All you claim to know is IT CAN WORK. That is plain bullshit. You have no idea where energy come from or where its is going. You only know how to harness it in conventional ways. Please sit at the sidelines where you belong and just read.

Nas

 

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