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Author Topic: Anti cogging idea ?  (Read 15630 times)

Offline helicoil

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Anti cogging idea ?
« on: May 01, 2010, 09:38:25 AM »
 just a basic idea, if this wheel is powered by a motor, and the smaller wheels in the pic are generators, does the larger wheel feel the effect of cogging ?

 the generators have a heavy weight that always sit at the bottom during rotation of the larger wheel with a much greater weight than the cogging force.
 


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Anti cogging idea ?
« on: May 01, 2010, 09:38:25 AM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2010, 11:42:14 AM »
I think cogging should be negligibly low but the big wheel's rotational speed cannot be too high (max a few hundred RPM).
For generators the ones designed for wind generators could serve fine.

However you have to use brushes to access to the generators output power.

Question is whether the generators are able to provide a resulting output power that covers at least the power needed for the big wheel's rotation? This can be answered only by testing this setup.

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2010, 03:41:10 PM »
Your drawing is not entirely clear, but it should be safe to say that inductors
take time to fill and empty; and so, Gyula's caveat about speed is useful.

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2010, 03:41:10 PM »
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Offline helicoil

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2010, 04:28:30 PM »
Thanks for the reply gyulasun.

Paul-R, sorry about the drawing, only have basic tools.
the basic idea is attaching generators to the wheel (in blue on the pic).The body of the generators are fixed to the wheel,
 a weight which is much more heavier than the cogging force is attached to the rotor causing an imbalance on that rotor, but not on the motor driven wheel.
 Rpm's would need to be limited else the weights will start to fly outwards, this would stop the spin on all the generators.
  The question is can a motor use less power to drive the wheel than the generators output, and will the drive wheel notice the cogging on each generator.
 Im hoping its simply a flywheel, and for each rev many generators produce power, without adding any extra strain except for there weight.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2010, 07:55:56 PM »
...
  The question is can a motor use less power to drive the wheel than the generators output, and will the drive wheel notice the cogging on each generator.
...

Yes, and your question can be answered only by building a prototype setup.  Do not worry about the big wheel cogging question, it is not that important (I mean it would be small).
For the test, for the generators,  you could use some stepping motors because they can work nicely as generators too. OR some DC motors with magnets, they also can work as generators. Unfortunately the DC motors efficiency at low RPMs are low. (Stepping motors are better in this respect.)  Have you got already thoughts on building such setup?

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2010, 07:55:56 PM »
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Offline helicoil

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2010, 05:02:55 AM »
 Need to do some research before building this.
Found some details on wind power generators.

The specs on this generator states Required Torque at Rated Power (NM) is 150 NM. (Is this the cogging ?).
If its the cogging force, hanging a 50 kg weight on a foot long lever should do.
generator weighs 78 KG.
At a guess, the frame to hold 4 generators would weigh at most 100 KG. (2- 1M long beams, no need to have a complete wheel).
4 generators 320 kg, Cost, probably out of my reach.
4 weights + arms 250 kg
Frame 100 KG
Total 670 kg.

generator output power at 100 rpm = around 600 W
Open Circuit Voltage at 100 rpm about 160 V

at 200 rpm output is over 2000 W and 325 V.

 Now need help from other members, is there is a motor that could rotate this 670 kg wheel, using less power than the combined generators output.
 looks promising at the moment, could even gear down a 3000 rpm 1000 W motor to a 15 to 1 ratio, to give 200 rpm, (i wish).

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2010, 12:31:48 PM »
Quote
  The specs on this generator states Required Torque at Rated Power (NM) is 150 NM. (Is this the cogging ?).

No it is not the cogging. It is a needed torque (150Nm) the wind should provide for the shaft via the blades so that the output power of the generator give out the specified electric power.  Cogging is explained here (and elsewhere if you google it):
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_cogging_effect

I agree on doing some research, however I would not suggest starting with as 'big' as you outline, (unless someone can afford the cost). For generators I mentioned stepper motors they are relatively cheep and could be obtained from old computer printers. See this for instance:
http://www.reuk.co.uk/Electricity-with-Stepper-Motors.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KypzdIMxF6Q

There are many other links (both video and description) on stepper motor generators if you use search engines.

Stepper motors do have cogging because they use strong permanent magnets inside so the weight for their shaft is also needed of course. But this is not a big drawback. And the advantage is that they give good output already ar 150-200 RPM.

And for rotating your big wheel with all the hanging weigths on it, you could use the rotoverter principle which can minimize the input power for the big wheel rotation. See this description on the rotoverter principle:
http://www.panaceauniversity.org/RV.pdf   Your idea of using gears to step down RPM (if it is much higher than 200 RPM)  is good.

Regards, Gyula

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2010, 12:31:48 PM »
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Offline helicoil

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2010, 05:58:07 PM »
 Dam, i used to work at an e-recycling center, motors and transformers were just thrown in the scrap metal bin , what a waste of good copper wire.

will check out the stepper motors, and i couldn't afford the big gens, just posted the details hoping someone could answer if its feasible, I don't know how to calculate the power needed to rotate the mass of the wheel.
I'm in no rush, as the chances are that it wont work, its too simple an idea that it couldn't work.
Came up with the idea trying to create a gravity wheel, and on paper it seemed more  efficient to place numerous gens on the wheel, using the weighted arms to reduce or stop the cogging force being transfered to the driven wheel.
much simpler than numerous complicated mechanical devices trying to drive the wheel, to power 1 gen.

Offline helicoil

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 02:12:05 PM »
 could wm2d be able to calculate the torque or power needed to rotate the drive wheel,at certain rpm, including friction on bearings and the lever arms to mimic cogging.
Was looking at a video today and looks like 100 rpm would be too quick.
 probably need around 30 rpm to stop the arms flying outwards,
 Will placing the gen rotors close to the center drive wheel reduce the centrifugal force, so rpm can be increased ?
 have been searching for very low 30 -50 rpm gens, have only found massive 30KV units. can not find slow small units to test the idea, unless i gear them up which would require more weight on the arms.
 How do i calculate cogging force of a fully loaded gen, without this imformation its impossible to calculate the wheels total weight.
Looks like the bigger you go the more efficient it gets, better power to weight ratio of the power gens, and a 100:1 ratio of a 3000 rpm drive motor.

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 02:12:05 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2010, 11:58:09 PM »
Hi,

I mainly agree with what you wrote above on the smaller RPMs etc  but I do not agree with your thought: if there is a simple idea then it necessarily does not work or cannot be useful etc.  What I like in you idea is that the input power needed for turning the big wheel does not seem to be influenced to much from the actual load on the several generators.
I do not know wm2d whether it can calculate the needed input power for a give wheel mass etc, but there are several members here who have this software and already used it for different problems. Hopefully they will turn up in this thread too.

Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2010, 09:05:17 AM »
i like this idea, might work.

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2010, 09:05:17 AM »
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Offline Airstriker

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2010, 01:47:37 PM »
It's the same idea as this one (not ever finished as I remember):
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8262.0

Offline helicoil

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2010, 09:21:30 PM »
 ran a few basic tests on this idea,probably incorrect, not sure about using wm2d,sorry cant post the file as its a
trial program.
  getting interesting results which i hope an expert user of wm2d can test.
 Most of the test had the pin radius and friction set to 0.5, not sure what this friction is but its able to grab and rotate
a 4 meter bar with a 50kg weight on its end, this seems like a huge cogging force.I hope its overkill as this test the drive
motor used just over 10kw, with it driving 2 30kw gens at 100rpm.

 The problem with this test is that i had the motor driven a a constant velocity to rotate at 100 rpm, don't know the settings
for the dc motor, (so the kw readings are probably incorrect).
 frictions a problem as well, not sure if its set true, results are surprising, even when hanging a 500 kg weight off the 4
meter arm  the drive motor uses 37500 kw when arms(rotors)friction pin radius and friction is set to the maximum value of
1.0, and the axle friction set at 0.5.
 when the friction on the arms or rotors are set to maximum it would grab and rotate a 255kg weight hanging at the bottom of
a 4 meter arm, i doubt the cogging force would come close to this.

 ran another test with all friction settings at 0.5 and the main axle friction coefficient set to the max,1.0, drive motor
power was 21kw. 

 lengthening the arms helps keep the weighted arm lower, as you can see on the pic, there almost at 45 degrees.
 tested the idea with 2 500 w gens weighing 13 kg, lightening the weight of the frame and arms and weights, running at 500
rpm, used more power than it produced, just over 1100 w, but if there were frictionless bearings on the main axle it ran at
550 w, friction on the arms were set at 0.5, main axle set at 0.05. 

 Just thought id post these details, i hope other members who are skilled at wm2d  post the correct results.

Offline helicoil

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2010, 12:40:06 PM »
Came across this motor, never heard of these before.
 wonder if the same idea could be used to generate power.

quote from ThinGap Announcement

ThinGap
developed a patented technology, which replaces the
iron core and wire windings of conventional motors
with a precision-machined copper sheet. This has
eliminated such issues as hysteresis, iron losses,
and cogging torque, while substantially reducing the
impact of eddy currents and back emf. The copper
sheets allow higher copper density and a higher
copper to total volume ratio, making ThinGap a
performance leader in high efficiency and power
density motors.

DC Ring Motor Powers 600-lb. Thrust Ducted-Fan
VENTURA, CA – April 20, 2010 – ThinGap LLC, a leader in high power density DC motors, today
announced a TG14090 Brushless DC Ring Motor that delivers 122 kW of shaft power, allowing a
ducted-fan to generate 600 pounds of thrust, depending on the fan blade design. The motor
provides an exceptional power to weight ratio – 6.4 HP per pound; a compact package that fits
the control inside the motor and low thermal load characteristics.


“ThinGap’s 14-inch electric ring motor allows a ducted fan to develop as much thrust as with a
gas engine, which is a game-changing milestone,” said Rean Pretorius, president, ThinGap, LLC.
“At 6.4 HP per pound, its power to weight ratio has not been achieved by any electric motor
currently in production and exceeds the aerospace engineering threshold of 5 HP per pound. The
advantage is much quieter operation for stealth, and less weight, which can be critical for UAV
surveillance and close support tactical applications.”


http://www.thingap.com/pdf/technologypaper.pdf

http://www.thingap.com/pdf/tg14090motor45clean.pdf

http://www.thingap.com/pdf/tg14010ds.pdf

Offline Airstriker

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Re: Anti cogging idea ?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2010, 02:49:57 PM »
@helicoil
I've seen this before. Everything is correct, but the thing with BEMF is not quite what you think ;) BEMF is still there but it's characteristics are a bit different. Here is what it's like:

Quote
The back EMF waveforms are sinusoidal
and with matching sinusoidal current waveforms, a
smooth low peak-to-peak A ripple is achieved.
A back EMF waveform with near-perfect sinusoidal
symmetry signifcantly reduces torque harmonics and
mechanical resonance over a wide speed range.

 

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