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Author Topic: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets  (Read 7933 times)

Offline gravityblock

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2 parallel rotors leap frogging around the stator magnets. There is 1 magnet on the top rotor and 1 magnet on the bottom rotor. There are two stator magnets.  The bottom stator magnet only interacts with the bottom rotor magnet, and the top stator magnet only interacts with the top rotor magnet. If I do this to the other side, then it should be able to self-run ( I hope ).

I've already began testing and it looks really promising at this moment. Enjoy!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrT2rkHnMfw

GB

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Offline Rapadura

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 02:43:59 PM »
Hmmm... It makes sense... Try it, man!!

Offline gravityblock

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2010, 10:23:47 PM »
In the video I posted, I had 2 stators.  I can now say it works with 3 stators.  I haven't been able to get 4 stators to work yet in order to close the loop and to have a self-runner.  At this time, I believe it is only an alignment, measurement and a poor build issue.

Here's a detailed explanation behind the theory of the device.  1)  Top rotor is attracted to the top stator magnet and drags the lower rotor with it.  2)  At TDC, the top rotor magnet yaws into position with the top stator magnet while the bottom rotor freely passes.  3)  Bottom rotor approaches the bottom stator magnet and has enough kinetic energy to free the top rotor magnet in the previous step and it also yaws into register at TDC.  4)   Top rotor approaches the top stator magnet on the other side, and has enough kinetic energy to free the bottom rotor magnet in the previous step and it also yaws into register at TDC.   5)  The process will repeat indefinitely.

We're basically borrowing energy, then as we are giving this energy back we are also taking energy again to be paid back in the next cycle.  We should always remain 1 step ahead.

I'll continue working on this build because I think it is very promising.  I would love to hear of any ideas, suggestions, thoughts, or questions.

Thanks,

GB

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2010, 10:23:47 PM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2010, 10:48:50 PM »
It looks interesting and worth trying some fine tuning and a 4th stator.  However if one assumes the kinetic or inertial energy comes from the magnets in the first place I'm having a hard time seeing where any extra energy will be present to make a self running device.  But I think it is always good to pursue a real test as you never know what you might find that wasn't obvious on the drawing board.  Good luck.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2010, 02:31:57 PM »
I'm going to abandon this design and work on a more improved version having 2 counter rotating rotors using the same basic principals.  This will allow each rotor to be continuously moving in opposite directions without the need for them to stop.  I'll start another thread once I begin the build process.

GB

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2010, 02:31:57 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2010, 03:08:20 PM »
However if one assumes the kinetic or inertial energy comes from the magnets in the first place I'm having a hard time seeing where any extra energy will be present to make a self running device.

Think about this.  The attraction of the rotor magnet to the stator magnet is free kinetic energy.  We know it will take energy to separate the two magnets.  The important thing to note is the rotor magnet will run pass the stator magnet and almost escape before it is pulled back.  I call this yawing into register.  When the rotor magnet first begins to yaw into register, then it takes very little energy for two other magnets in attraction to break the attraction force of the rotor magnet that is yawing into register.  This means we keep most of the kinetic energy we gained during the attraction of those two magnets and we can repeat this process.

This can't be done on a single rotor because when one rotor magnet is yawing into register, then the entire rotor is yawing also.  On a dual rotor, one rotor will be yawing while the other rotor isn't, so we can use this other rotor to break the attraction force of the rotor that is yawing into register with very little force.

GB 

Offline Rapadura

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2010, 09:45:43 PM »
The attraction of the rotor magnet to the stator magnet is free kinetic energy.  We know it will take energy to separate the two magnets.  The important thing to note is the rotor magnet will run pass the stator magnet and almost escape before it is pulled back

I think it's exactly the moment where we can win the battle against the sticky spot: when the rotor "almost escape" from the stator magnet.

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2010, 09:45:43 PM »
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Offline pasi1

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 12:19:48 PM »
hi,

I hope you have luck with this idea


Pasi

Offline Rapadura

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 10:53:03 PM »
The attraction of the rotor magnet to the stator magnet is free kinetic energy.  The important thing to note is the rotor magnet will run pass the stator magnet and almost escape before it is pulled back. 

Hey!!!

I was thinking about it, and thinking again, and again...

I have an idea...

What about a "stator" magnet and a toy car with an embedded magnet? Like in the drawing bellow...

The toy car is on a "rail" (a track), and is attracted to the stator magnet, passes along the stator magnet, "almost escapes" from the stator magnet, but is pulled back, right?

I was thinking about the "free kinetic energy"... The movement of the toy car until it reaches the "end of track" (the point where it starts to be pulled back) can be harnessed and energy can be stored.

I was thinking of two ways of using the rotation of the wheels of the car to store energy: electrically and mechanically.

Electrically: the 4 wheels of the toy car turn 2 micro dynamos while the toy car is moving, attracted by the stator magnet. The electricity generated by the micro dynamos is stored in capacitors.

Mechanically: the rotation of the wheels is used to store energy in a mainspring, like a mainspring of a mechanical watch or a friction toy car.

The car need to have a mechanism that, when it reaches the "end of track" (the point where it starts to be pulled back), the stored energy is released back to the 4 wheels, and the car tries to escape from the stator magnet! Maybe it could escape!

The track could be circular, with various stator magnets...


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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 10:53:03 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 10:56:37 PM »
hi,

I hope you have luck with this idea


Pasi

I'm going to work on this more.  The counter rotating rotors will be much more complicated, so I will continue on my original design of this thread for proof of concept.

I'll be releasing more videos of my progress soon.  At the moment I'm in the process of making the system easier to fine tune and adjust.  I'm even thinking about putting the stator magnets at different angle to make it an asymmetric system.  This way the rotor magnets will be slightly repelled after TDC.  I'm going to throw every trick I know of at this thing, in hopes to close the loop.

The goal of this project is to create a perpetual motion machine with an all magnet motor, even if it runs at a slow RPM.  If this is successful, then we can make a more complicated machine using the same basic principals that will run at a high RPM so pickup coils can be added and the system can be useful, instead of being a novelty or curiosity only.  I'm limited in what I can build, so this is the best process for me to take. 

GB

Offline gravityblock

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2010, 07:13:51 AM »
Video Update:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BszZwjpUyA

The bottom rotor easily gets past the sticky spot going Counter Clockwise and the top rotor easily gets past the sticky spot going Clockwise.  If I can get both rotors to have no sticky spot when both are moving in the same direction, then I believe it will work in a closed loop.  Having a sticky spot in one direction and no sticky spot in another direction is proof of an asymmetric system which leads to a gain in one direction and a loss in the other direction.  I have listed below some possible solutions to have both rotors have no sticky spot when moving in the same direction. 

I think this issue can be solved when the top and bottom rotor magnets are facing the stator magnets with opposite polarities and there is more distance between the top and bottom rotor magnets.  In addition to this, the magnets need to be fairly equal in strength for the best chance of closing the loop.

@Rapadura:  This may be the reason why ClanZer wasn't able to close the loop with the offset magnet (Because one rotor magnet would have no sticky spot in a particular direction while the other rotor magnet would have a sticky spot for that same direction).  This is my best guess at the moment, and only ClanZer knows why the loop wasn't closed.  This is the reason why our successes along with our failures need to be documented.

I have a really good feel to what is going on in this system and I will be analyzing everything in order to overcome any issues.  It's a tedious and time consuming process, but I think there is something to be learned from this concept and in the end it may even work.

GB





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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2010, 07:13:51 AM »
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Offline Rapadura

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 12:46:33 AM »
The sticky spot being stronger in one direction than in the other direction is something that deserves to be carefully analised in the real world, in practice...

It opens a lot of possibilities...

Offline gravityblock

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 08:51:11 PM »
I'm going to add 2 more stators (I need to buy more magnets for these additional stators and should be able to pick up the necessary magnets today).  This will give me a total of 4 stators with 3 magnets on each rotor.  There will always be a stator magnet pulling a rotor magnet from the sticky spot.  I increased the distance between the top and bottom rotor magnets so they do not interact and work against each other.

I'll post a video update after I add the additional stators to the system.

GB

Offline gravityblock

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Harmonic drives for 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2010, 06:54:26 AM »
Using two harmonic drive systems, one for each rotor, should allow both rotors to leap frog around the dynamic stator magnets in order to be self-sustaining.  Here's an excellent video demonstrating how the harmonic drives work, http://www.harmonicdrive.de/german/funktionsprinzip/funktionsprinzip-film.html

There are 3 parts to the harmonic drives.  A circular spline which is fixed, a flex spline attached to an output shaft, and a wave generator attached to the input shaft.  Each rotor will be mounted to their respective wave generator for the input shaft.  A dynamic stator magnet will be mounted to the output shaft for both harmonic drives.

The key to the design of the harmonic drive is that there are fewer teeth (for example 2, 4, 6, etc. fewer) on the flex spline than there are on the circular spline. This means that for every full rotation of the wave generator, the flex spline would be required to rotate a slight amount (2, 4, or 6 teeth depending on the difference in the number of teeth between the flex spline and circular spline) backward relative to the circular spline. Thus the rotation action of the wave generator results in a much slower rotation of the flex spline in the opposite direction.

Since the stator magnets slightly rotate in the opposite direction on a complete rotation, this allows for great precision and allows each stator magnet to be at a slight offset so it can free both rotors at the appropriate time in order for this system to work.  In the previous design, it was impossible to have both stators to be at an offset for each rotor.

Here's a video of a high speed robot hand using the harmonic drive, http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80731612   Wiki has a good reference for the harmonic drives, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_drive

I feel really good and excited about this.  I think this will solve the issues I have had with the previous design.  The same basic principal remains the same though.  This new design is using a dynamic stator instead of a conventional stationary stator, (this is the only difference between the two designs).  I do realize the term "dynamic stator" is a contradiction to each other, but this contradictory term will help to differentiate the different aspects of the device.  I've put a lot of thought and experimentation into this concept.

[Edit:]  Additional information on the harmonic drive, http://www.waltmusser.org/HD.htm

Thanks,

GB

Offline Low-Q

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Re: 2 Parralel Sliding Rotors Leap Frogging Around the Stator Magnets
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2010, 12:00:36 AM »
The sticky spot being stronger in one direction than in the other direction is something that deserves to be carefully analised in the real world, in practice...

It opens a lot of possibilities...
Only if the physics follows the idea. Most of the time an idea do not follow the exact physics - not even this time I think.
The sticky spot that is weaker in one direction I believe is only random. It could likely be the opposite way. It seems to me that the two rotors are repelling eachother. When those rotor magnets are ligned up, the sum of attraction and repel of the statormagnet is zero. But it takes energy to force those rotor magnets together. If the timing is perfect, these rotors will spin just like an ordinary wheel and stop because of friction.

If those two rotors does not work separately, it would not work when combined - the demonstration also prooves that quite clear. Unless one of the magnets demagnetize, there are no change in the magnetic properties when two magnets are combined like in this demonstration.

My thoughts anyways.

Br.

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