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Author Topic: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !  (Read 285009 times)

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #210 on: May 01, 2010, 09:43:12 AM »
I remeber for "ICE" as combusing exlosiv part in enginge,
following that i  found 5 years ago, an i have "saved" for myself.

eventually you can find a solution for your research now:


Gustav Pese

Interesting idea Gustav  :)

Here is another theory to explain the Over Unity performance of the Anton HHO cell, and other HHO researchers such as Stan Meyer, in the past running an engine.

Water Dissociation Using Zero Point Energy
by Moray B. King
Moray B. King has put forth a scientific model that suggests that the reason so many experimenters are observing more energy emerging from their electrolysis systems than what they put into it, is that the configuration harnesses zero point energy.
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Electrolysis/Moray_King/WaterFuelZPE2009.ppt

"There are many names for the gas produced by the electrolyzers. Yull Brown is credited with recognizing and investigating the energetic anomalies of the gas as he was applying it to welding applications, and so perhaps is justified to name it after him. Most researchers believe the gas is simply a 2:1 mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Brown hypothesized that the gas was atomic hydrogen and oxygen in his attempts to explain the strange energetic effects, and thus the name HHO has remained popular. Hydroxy is another popular name. George Wiseman, who was one of the first to recognized the dominant gas produced was not hydrogen, suggested it was “electrically expanded water.” Here we will consider a similar hypothesis: the gas is actually charged water gas clusters, which activate and cohere the zero-point energy. As we shall see, the gas is wide open for new names as investigators begin to realize that the important, energetic constituent is not hydrogen and claim that they are the first to discover this (since nearly everyone participating on the web believes the energetic gas is hydrogen).

"Here we will entertain the hypothesis that the dominant energy is not from hydrogen. The best support for the hypothesis is the big anomalies observed regarding Brown’s gas: It exhibits a cool flame (130 degrees F), yet it can sublimate tungsten (vaporization point over 10000 degrees F). Burning hydrogen cannot do that. Also there are experiments which show it can even dramatically reduce radioactivity in radioactive material. Burning hydrogen certainly cannot do that. Moreover, when the gas is analyzed in appropriately equipped laboratories, researchers find very little hydrogen. Instead they detect gaseous, water clusters with excess electrons."

"The hypothesis that the zero-point energy is the actual energy source for Brown’s gas comes from observing an experimental coincidence. Charged water gas clusters exhibit the same energetic anomalies as the plasma charged clusters, a microscopic form of ball lightning that has been extensively studied in the experiments by Ken Shoulders. He originally named them “Electrum Validum” (EV) meaning “strong charge,” and later named them “exotic vacuum objects” (EVO) when he became convinced that their excess energy was cohered from the zero-point vacuum fluctuations. To further support the hypothesis, we will review a reference that shows how zero-point energy can be coherently activated within a collapsing microscopic bubble of water via cavity quantum electrodynamics."

Regards, Mike R.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #210 on: May 01, 2010, 09:43:12 AM »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #211 on: May 01, 2010, 09:56:54 AM »
That was discussed earlier in the thread. Zero point energy is a deficiency in quantum mechanics which has to be dealt with in order to improve quantum mechanics rather than use it as a candidate explanation of whatever. Dismiss it outright, let alone that OU still hasn't been demonstrated conclusively in the case we're discussing. Let us see first what the follow up videos will show prior to speculating, especially on bogus grounds.

Offline pese

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    • Freie Energie und mehr ... Free energy and more ...
Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #212 on: May 01, 2010, 11:21:09 AM »
@pese,

That's a really exotic hypothesis. To induce pressure, however, one has to do work (in our case at the expense of burning hydrogen). Where's the evidence that ice explosion will not only compensate for the work done but will also add excess energy?
Denken Sie daran, dass jeder Vakuum und plötzlicher Luftunterdruck, wird die Luftfeuchtigkeit  vereisen.
Nano- Eis kristalle,.
Auch der Dampf ( Nebel) aus dem HHO Bubbler wird vereisen.

Diesen Effekt haben Sie auch durch den engen Luftdurchgang im GEEZ Reaktor.
Dieser ist viel zu eng für eine normale Luftversorgung des Motors !!
Dass heisst, es gibt ein starkes Vakuum und "possible" entstehende Nano-Eis-Kristalle werden eine "Extra" Kraft erzeugen
Remember that any sudden vacuum and air pressure, humidity will freeze.
Nano-ice crystals.
Even the vapor (fog) from the HHO Bubbler will freeze.

They also have this effect by the narrow air passage in GEEZ reactor.
This is far too narrow for a normal air supply to the engine!
That is, there is a strong vacuum and "possible" emerging nano-ice crystals are an "extra" generating force


offcause the google-translation, i send the actual "german" source of it aditionally - because some translated word can possibly missinterpredet from "tramslator".

Gustav Pese

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #212 on: May 01, 2010, 11:21:09 AM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #213 on: May 01, 2010, 01:57:12 PM »
That was discussed earlier in the thread. Zero point energy is a deficiency in quantum mechanics which has to be dealt with in order to improve quantum mechanics rather than use it as a candidate explanation of whatever. Dismiss it outright, let alone that OU still hasn't been demonstrated conclusively in the case we're discussing. Let us see first what the follow up videos will show prior to speculating, especially on bogus grounds.

Self running for "hours heating the office" on just water is OU in my book.   ;)

Moray also makes a good case explaining the anomalous properties of Browns Gas (what the Anton Cell is making), that have been demonstrated for decades, using ZPE and Ken Shoulders "charge clusters." 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #214 on: May 01, 2010, 03:16:06 PM »
Self-running for hours heating the office has to be reproduced independently. At least that, even prior to applying load. There are other suggestions also, such as that the system is a heat pump. At this stage what we see in the vid is on the order of other OU claims shown in multiple videos -- mostly wetting the appetite.

Again, it has to be understood what is causing the OU. Is it the electrolysis or what goes on in the ICE? The electrolysis is pretty trivial in its essence and I'd be amazed if it is at the basis of the effect, let alone that the cells being undivided would suggest worsening of the output gas volume. Besides, if there's anything unusual in the run of the cells it should be easily detected prior to getting into trouble to involve ICE. If, on the other hand,  what happens in the ICE is at the basis of the effect then one may think it should've been noticed earlier when hydrogen as fuel has been studied. Electrolysis in such a case would only be the supplier of the hydrogen and supply of hydrogen can be insured in other non-electrochemical ways. It should be obvious that the mere turning of H2 and O2 back to H2O cannot be the OU mechanism. The involvement of nitrogen interaction with oxygen to cause OU isn't clear too as a mechnism of OU, zpe is out. Further, it isn't clear how the he vacuum_creating_ice theory would be the mechanism for excess energy either. Etc., etc ... So, again, study separately the two elements of the system -- the cell and the ICE -- or, since it's already available, demonstrate reproducibly self-sustaining run of the system. That run has to be estabished as an undeniable fact, reproduced by third parties, prior to any attempts at explaining it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #214 on: May 01, 2010, 03:16:06 PM »
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Offline Thaelin

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #215 on: May 02, 2010, 03:19:56 PM »
   I remember right here on OU it was said that an HHO
cell could not produce enough gas output to sustain the
operation of the motor. 
   The motor will have to be fixed with a controller that
can react fast enough to the conditions as used in cars
today. We are standing at the crossroads of tomorrow
and we 'will' move forward. The future demands it.

thaelin

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #216 on: May 02, 2010, 05:11:46 PM »
What if the Anton cell were to be found able to produce a limited amount of gas or its input, but cherry-pick watermocules for greatest effect, leaving the lesser interesting ones unbroken?
I could see a system cherry-picking some 100g from 1000kg of water, for easy breaking and powerful explosion/implosion, leaving 900g of water "only interested for watering plants". Is cherrypicking water OU? You're not using the hypothesized 90%, and for anyone else, it's still good as water.

A car might run on plain water, just need a whole lot of it, giving most of it back after use.

I'll just throw in here, that a more efficient design of engine would greatly increase the chance of a successfully looped system. Stuff like Tommey Reed explores with his engine designs, no inefficient crank shafts suppressing the might of the explosions.
Should the OU effect be too small to be made to work reliably now, such a way might help out. Like a gravity wheel that is dragging heavily on the ground, wasting 50% of the input right there, and thus bare allowed to work.

Good luck to the researchers!!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #216 on: May 02, 2010, 05:11:46 PM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #217 on: May 02, 2010, 06:58:13 PM »
Charged Water Clusters theory of Common Duct Electrolyzers
By Moray King:

"t has been observed over the years that the typical Brown’s gas generators which have a wide spacing between the electrodes manifest three sets of bubbles between the electrodes.  Hydrogen is produced on the negative electrode and oxygen is produced on the positive electrode as would be expected in standard electrolysis. However, in the middle there appears a set of bubbles that many researchers believe is the most energetic component, the hypothesized charged water gas clusters.

When the electrodes are tightly spaced, any free oxygen and hydrogen atoms can easily join the cluster. Hydrogen atoms tend to combine with whatever they hit on first collision. Thus tightly spaced electrodes would produce more charged water gas clusters and less free hydrogen."

So the Anton cell design with 1 mm spacing is creating more of the ZPE "Charged Water Clusters" than other designs that have wider spacing electrodes. That would explain why other Brown's gas researchers have not been able to run there engines off their cells.

Offline haithar

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #218 on: May 02, 2010, 07:02:27 PM »
I have seen this presentation, but many questions arise.

How does he know that the large bubbles are "charged water clusters"?
Why are charged water clusters gaseous?
Why are charged water clusters from zero-point energy?
And so on ..

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #218 on: May 02, 2010, 07:02:27 PM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #219 on: May 02, 2010, 07:44:05 PM »
I have seen this presentation, but many questions arise.

How does he know that the large bubbles are "charged water clusters"?
Why are charged water clusters gaseous?
Why are charged water clusters from zero-point energy?
And so on ..

Charged water clusters is the name Moray King calls them. Other "Brown's Gas" researchers, have seen this phenomenon of the 3 types of bubbles

Brown's Gas researcher George Wiseman called this middle gas "electrified water".  His cell design was 3/8" spacing, so it was easy to see this middle gas bubbles created.

Moray's ZPE theory seems to fit all the anomalies of Brown's Gas and can be explain using quantum electrodynamics. Until someone comes up with another theory, this looks good to me.

Offline haithar

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #220 on: May 03, 2010, 09:58:37 AM »
do you have a link to that theory?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #220 on: May 03, 2010, 09:58:37 AM »
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Offline flavian

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #221 on: May 03, 2010, 04:43:48 PM »
I am glad someone managed to go one step further.

I managed to obtain 500W from my generator 2 years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJLgv20LEF8

I was using 2000W in order to do this with my cell because my engine needed 14LPm in order to run. The engine was not timing adjusted, it actually had no modifications at all. See video description.

Searching for resonance on my cells I stopped playing with the generator, but it is so great that someone did it.

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #222 on: May 03, 2010, 08:25:08 PM »
I am glad someone managed to go one step further.

I managed to obtain 500W from my generator 2 years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJLgv20LEF8

I was using 2000W in order to do this with my cell because my engine needed 14LPm in order to run. The engine was not timing adjusted, it actually had no modifications at all. See video description.

Searching for resonance on my cells I stopped playing with the generator, but it is so great that someone did it.

Hi flavian,
Thank you for sharing your HHO work!

Yes, it is very exciting to see someone finally running an engine on water while powering the cells and loads. Since the 1970's-1980's there were reports of Yull Brown running cars in Australia using his series cell "Brown's Gas" electrolyzer design. But no one figured out how he did it all these years.

It looks like the Anton cell designers got it right the first time.  :)

For those that are unfamiliar about the Bob Boyce series cell design read on.  For those that understand the Boyce design can skip to the bottom.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Bob Boyce 101 cell design is basically the resonance reaction of his OU toroidal transformer, that Boyce says taps into the Tesla Longitudinal Energy that his toroid makes from his PWM pulses, that then goes to his 101 cell where it resonants the 101 plates that then converts the toroid Longitudinal energy into OU gas production in his cell.

To date, very few experimenters got it working in the resonant mode of operation, and of the ones that did hit the resonance reaction did not publish their results. So most of the researchers are running their Boyce cell using DC, just like Dr. Rhodes & Yull Brown designs, to makes lots of hydroxy gas (14 LPM) but not enough to run an engine for very long periods of time. 

Boyce used 1/8" plate spacing because when his cell goes into resonance the amount of gas generated was huge and actually pushes the water out of the cells. Reports of 30-50 LPM confirmed this. So in order to keep the water in the cell and not being thrown out a 1/8" cell spacings was used and the water level was set to 1/2 full. 

Researchers also found that it was difficult to keep and hold on to resonance partially due to the water being thrown out of the cells, as well as temperature and pressure changes .  These all changed the cells resonant frequency and you now needed to find the new resonant frequency manually as there were no feedback circuit loops to automatically track to the resonant frequency.

Very precise cell design, toroidal windings and special PWM was needed to make the Boyce cell to work. All this costs added up to close to $3500-4000.

The 101 cell box:
The Ed Holdgate cell box, machine precision made to 10,000th of an inch, for the exacting equal 1/8" spacing and to fit exactly the 101- 16ga 316L stainless steel plates, costs close to $1800.

The special silver coated solid copper wire wrapped equally spaced preciously on the special made 6" high frequency toroidal core from Mircometals had to be hand wrapped. Not many researchers are experts on hand winding toroidal cores.  Automated machine attempts to wind the cores have not worked to date. Bees wax was used to encase the primary and secondary windings.

The Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) boards can be bought off the shelf from "Hydrogen Garage".

The 101- 316L stainless steel plates had to be "conditioned" for weeks. (See the Free Energy D9 document). Using the more expensive 317L cuts the conditioning process down to a day.  The plates also have to be laser cut so as to be perfectly flat with no kerfed edges typical of sheared cuts. 

In other words, doing the latest and greatest series cell design by Boyce was an expensive, time consuming, and required precision beyond the typical researcher that is capable of performing in his garage work shop. And after all the above, the chances of success was unknown because of the multitude of these parts that all needed to work together, perfectly, to achieve the conversion of the OU toroid Longitudinal energy to the creation of the OU hydroxy gas.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So now we have the Anton cell design that can run an engine.

Compared to building a series cell 101 plate design of the typical "Brown's Gas" electrolyzer or the more advanced Bob Boyce unit (see above), the Anton design is a VERY simple.    ;D

There looks to be only one critical design component, the 1 mm cell spacing.  Thats it!

It is so simple they show a video of assembling the whole unit in less than a day!  Cake walk city  :D

Spaß / Fun with a HHO Anton Drycell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBL_gfmj04

It looks scalable, both in the individual plate sizes as well as the number of plates you can stack. They used 21 plates (3 X 7 cell units) to create 6 LPM to run a 2.5 HP genset for 1000 watts output. Technically one could build a single 21 plate unit to save materials.  Or even go to 101 plates design to fuel larger engines. The sky is the limit   ;)

Why does it work?
No one knows at this time. Their HHO gas needs to be analyzed in a laboratory.  A mass spectrometer would really help. The engine exhaust should also be analyzed to see what is happening inside the combustion chamber.

One theory (see my posts above) is the cell spacing needs to be 1 mm to create this "special gas", Dr. Moray calls it "charged water clusters," tapping ZPE to then be able to run an engine.  When using the Boyce design in the DC mode, the 1/8" spacing (3.175 mm), is 3 X larger, and is actually not the right spacing for creating this "special gas".

Whole new industries could be built around HHO as a fuel.  Check out Roy MCalister's videos on running hydrogen in engines. Roy jokingly says that 10,000 millionaires could be created EACH WEEK from converting our cars and homes to running on HHO & hydrogen  ;)

American Hydrogen Association
http://www.clean-air.org/

Exciting times ahead :)

Regards, Mike R.

 

Offline flavian

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #223 on: May 04, 2010, 06:52:13 AM »
I used a simple boyce cell, built by me without any help from Ed Holgate or anyone because I'm from Europe. I used it without resonance so far and I believe OU might work with that also.

Anton cells use 900W in order to get 6 LPM wich translates to about 150W per LPM.

My Boyce cell uses 2000W in order to get 14LPM with translates to about 140W per LPM.

So the numbers are almost the same. I'm not sure the 3mm vs 1mm spacing between the plates is the issue. Anton had a 1000W generator with timing adjustments, mine was a 2000W generator without any modifications. But it worked, it just needed more gas.

Sure, a dry cell helps especially if you use it in your car because it is easier to build and install without problems. I'm not sure however that it produces better quality gas compared to other designs. In order to produce monoatomic hydrogen I believe resonance is still needed.

Offline Sente

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #224 on: May 04, 2010, 07:08:56 AM »
hallo


sorry for german,

mit Anton ist doch noch viel mehr möglich:

nicht immer an auto denken, anton kann viel mehr: Kondensator, Batterie, Brennstoffzelle, hho-zelle.
einfach mal weiter denken, anton ist fertig als baukasten und kann nach belieben umgebaut oder erweitert werden, desweiteren ist es einfacher ein stationären motor (z.b. Bhkw) mit konstanten drehzahlen mit gas zu betreiben als ein automotor mit wechselden drehzahlen.

und ich lese hier viel, sehe aber eher wenig, hier sind 23t  user im forum und anscheinend auch einige zellen, aber wie viel brenner oder andre spielereien sind zu sehen?  keine ahnung  10-20 ?  oder doch mehr, hier wird auch viel diskutiert und an elektronik geschraubt aber nicht viel mit HHO, GEEt,SPAD,G+P,A.V.E.C, ich sehe nicht viel, alle reden und suchen und wenn sies gefunden haben suchen sie was neues, leute baut was zusammen und redet nicht nur drüber, wenns 5 leute in europa und vielleicht 100 auf der welt machen wird das nichts, der wandel muss jetzt mal langsam eingeleitet werden.

wir in deutschland haben doch viel mehr probleme zu lösen als andre länder wo nicht nachgefragt wird ob das erlaubt ist.


mfg


sente

 

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