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Author Topic: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !  (Read 298097 times)

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #195 on: April 30, 2010, 09:38:17 PM »
See, one of their simpler cells A for over a thousand dollars. That's expensive if one is to only explore their claim. At least there should be a good reason to do so. So far I don't see one in strictly scientific terms. Just a video with claims for self-sustaining run isn't enough. We've seen a lot of videos. Where will we end up if we're to buy  for a thousand dollars the equipment shown in every video?

Yes, the cost to do this experiment is around $2750 = $2225 (3) Anton cells (1650 euro x 1.35) + $250 genset + $250 misc. costs such as shipping, taxes etc.

So for 1000 watts genset output it would cost around $2.75 per watt.  That is a okay cost and competes well with solar panels at $2/watt.

Still unknown:
- Do they sand treat the plate surfaces? 
- Do they condition the plates in NaHO or KOH?
- Distilled or RO water used?
- What type of stainless steel they are using, 304L, 316L, 317L ? 
 

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fanton-shop.com%2Fnew%2Fen%2Fcontent%2Fanton&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Anton
 
€ 550.00
including VAT
excluding shipping costs

The simple Anton consists of 10 chambers (11 electrodes made of a particularly high-quality stainless steel alloy, Size: 300mm x 150mm).
The multi-functional separation elements are more than just simple Seals:
From the extremely robust high-tech material Viton ® for injection molding manufacture,
give it to the stack Anton equally tailor stability and high reliability.
The outer plates are made of sturdy molded polycarbonate.
This simple kit Anton is 12 volts or 24 volts operating voltage design (2 x 5 chambers).
The dimensions of the finished kit:
Width: 350 mm, height: 225mm, Depth: 65mm.
Active electrolysis area: 9000 cm ² (= 0.9 m²)
For the operation of about 150 watts per liter of gas are required per minute.
In normal operations about 3.5 liters of gas per minute can be produced.
Short term by increased electrical power can be produced more gas.

Delivery:
Two plexiglass cover plates including connection nipples for water and gas
11 stainless steel plates (electrodes)
12 multi-functional separation elements made of Viton

« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 07:34:37 AM by vrand »

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #195 on: April 30, 2010, 09:38:17 PM »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #196 on: April 30, 2010, 09:51:34 PM »
I think they said they're using three Anton cells filled with 3% KOH. So, that's more than $2000. Pretreatment, conditioning etc. will also be revealed, I guess, since they stated that's an open source project. The volts and amps are seen in the video -- 11-12V and 25-60A, something on that order. It's important to understand also exactly how they prepare the non-stoichiometric mixture from the inevitably stoichiometric during the electrolysis (unless some new phenomenon is at play here causing it to be non-stoichiometric even during electrolysis).

I don't think it has reached a stage to use it at your home so I won't make such calculations. The cost I'm interested in is solely in terms of purely research purposes.

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #197 on: April 30, 2010, 09:52:26 PM »
Quote
Anton
 
€ 550.00
including VAT
excluding shipping costs

The A Anton consists of 10 chambers (11 electrodes made of a particularly high-quality stainless steel alloy, Size: 300mm x 150mm).
The multi-functional separation elements are more than just simple Seals:
From the extremely robust high-tech material Viton ® for injection molding manufacture,
give it to the stack Anton equally tailor stability and high reliability.
The outer plates are made of sturdy molded polycarbonate.
This simple kit Anton is 12 volts or 24 volts operating voltage design (2 x 5 chambers).
The dimensions of the finished kit:
Width: 350 mm, height: 225mm, Depth: 65mm.
Active electrolysis area: 9000 cm ² (= 0.9 m²)
For the operation of about 150 watts per liter of gas are required per minute.
In normal operations about 3.5 liters of gas per minute can be produced.
Short term by increased electrical power can be produced more gas.


Watt/hr. per Liter calc:
150 watts/L x 3.5L/min. = 525 watts for 3.5L/min.
3.5L/min. x 60 min./hr. = 210L/hr.
525 watts/210L/hr. = 2.5 Wh/L

The Anton cell at 2.5 Wh/L is lower electrical energy input into the cells than the Eagle Research unit at 3 Wh/L.   ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #197 on: April 30, 2010, 09:52:26 PM »
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Offline Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #198 on: April 30, 2010, 10:00:37 PM »

I have to wonder if the high frequency pulsing and sharp spikes of the joule thief be useful in powering the Anton device.

Regards...


Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #199 on: April 30, 2010, 10:26:59 PM »
I think they said they're using three Anton cells filled with 3% KOH. So, that's more than $2000. Pretreatment, conditioning etc. will also be revealed, I guess, since they stated that's an open source project. The volts and amps are seen in the video -- 11-12V and 25-60A, something on that order. It's important to understand also exactly how they prepare the non-stoichiometric mixture from the inevitably stoichiometric during the A (unless some new phenomenon is at play here causing it to be non-stoichiometric even during electrolysis).

I don't think it has reached a stage to use it at your home so I won't make such calculations. The cost I'm interested in is solely in terms of purely A purposes.

Interesting design points of the Anton Cell:
- The top hole gas space where the gases are collected, there is still some plate area ABOVE the gas space.
- The plate area above the gases has the same current/voltage as below the gases in the water. Maybe the HHO gases are being energized to a higher energy level?!
- Maybe the H & O electrons are being stripped from the HHO gas?  This would raise the atomic H & O atoms to a higher energy level.
- Depending on the water used, natural water has up to 15% Nitrogen gas in water.
- Maybe the Nitrogen in the cell water is also electrolyzed with the HHO and energized by the plate area above the gas hole to create NH3 ammonia? 

The HHO gas is typically made up of atomic Hydrogen & Oxygen atoms that will want to recombined to liquid water as soon as possible (this will release energy). So the need to use them and ignite inside the engine as fast as possible (to use all the energy to push down the piston) works good for "on-demand" HHO production and the no need for storage of the HHO.
 
The steel plate area space above the gas port is the first time I have seen done, with the "dry cell" designs out in the market.  Maybe something special is happening in there.   

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #199 on: April 30, 2010, 10:26:59 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #200 on: April 30, 2010, 10:40:01 PM »
Let's be reasonable. Most of this just can't be.

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #201 on: April 30, 2010, 10:49:07 PM »
Let's be reasonable. Most of this just can't be.

One way to find out  :)

Hiden HAL Quadrupole Mass Spectrometer
$600+132sh
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hiden-HAL-Quadrupole-Mass-Spectrometer-/120444537359?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c0b0dca0f

HAL 3F Mass Spectrometers
Triple Filter Quadrupoles for Precision Gas Analysis and Scientific Applications

http://www.hidenanalytical.com/index.php/en/product-catalog/35-triple-filter-quadrupoles/49-hal-3f-mass-spectrometers


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #201 on: April 30, 2010, 10:49:07 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #202 on: April 30, 2010, 11:01:00 PM »
Well, yes, that's the way to go.

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #203 on: April 30, 2010, 11:22:02 PM »
[A author=Omnibus link=topic=9099.msg239774#msg239774 date=1272661260]
Well, yes, that's the way to go.
[/quote]

Yep, but due to the high costs they need to search alternative ways of getting access to a mass spectrometer.  Maybe they can borrow one from the local college/university?  I have done that in the past at my alma mater. Maybe they can find someone who graduated from the physics dept. and that person can loan it out to do some tests for them.  Would also need someone who knew how to work the unit. 

Showing a video of their engine running on water to the local professors might also get their attention to then be able to do some lab tests.  That genset is small enough to put in the trunk of a car and carry it to a lab.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #203 on: April 30, 2010, 11:22:02 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #204 on: May 01, 2010, 02:10:48 AM »

Do you have any hard data to back this up?


@Omnibus;

Try the link:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Chapter 3.8 - Emissions

This document also explains some of the things that need to be done
in a hydrogen ICE conversion.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #205 on: May 01, 2010, 03:14:47 AM »
Thanks a lot, @mscoffman, interesting document, indeed.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #205 on: May 01, 2010, 03:14:47 AM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #206 on: May 01, 2010, 08:03:00 AM »
@Omnibus;

Try the link:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Chapter 3.8 - Emissions

This document also explains some of the things that need to be done
in a hydrogen ICE conversion.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Thank you Mark, an interesting read!

Quote
3.5 Ignition Systems
Due  to hydrogen’s  low ignition energy limit, igniting hydro-
gen is easy and gasoline ignition systems can  be  used.  At
very lean air/fuel ratios (130:1 to 180:1)
the flame velocity is
reduced considerably and the use of a dual spark plug sys-
tem is preferred

Maybe they got the air to HHO gas mixture just right at very high lean ratios and did not need more than 6 LPM of the HHO to run & power the loads?

They did say that they had to adjust the air intake (did not say how).

The Anton cell close plate spacing (?mm) will have less electrical resistance, more efficient HHO gas production, and less heat generated, compared to other "dry cell" designs out in the market place with wider cell spacings.  At 2.5 Wh/L is very good although Woodpeckers design got down to 1.33 Wh/L when he used 1 mm spacing.

How tu build a drycell electrolyzer English vers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DJDKYXmIWM

Some questions:
- Why only 3% KOH?  The more KOH the less electrical input to generate the same amount of HHO.
- Why 3 Anton cell units at 7 plates each vs just making just 1 large 21 plate unit?  Might be able to lower the cell cost.
- Are the plates sanded, to increase gas output by allowing the gas bubbles more easily to remove from the plate surface?

Looking forward to their next video!   :)

Regards, Mike R.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 08:56:35 AM by vrand »

Offline pese

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #207 on: May 01, 2010, 08:45:26 AM »
@Omnibus;

Try the link:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Chapter 3.8 - Emissions

This document also explains some of the things that need to be done
in a hydrogen ICE conversion.

:S:MarkSCoffman

I remeber for "ICE" as combusing exlosiv part in enginge,
following that i  found 5 years ago, an i have "saved" for myself.

eventually you can find a solution for your research now:

------------------------------------------------------

Even Dingle's cell doesn't seem particularly advanced. Here is a different perspective, and it is based on both theory and experimental evidence, but I am not yet to the stage of trying it on an actual auto engine.

Auch Dingle der Zelle scheint nicht besonders weit fortgeschritten. Hier ist eine andere Perspektive, und es ist auf Theorie und experimentelle Beweise gestützt, aber ich bin noch nicht auf die Bühne zu versuchen, sie auf einer tatsächlichen Auto-Motor.

My best guess on how an engine is able to sustain operation on water-fuel does NOT depend on electrolysis - I see electrolysis itself as only supplying a small fraction (~20 % or less) of the required energy - the rest comes from (don't laugh yet) ice explosion - that's right, very small particles of ice that are formed by phase-change in a partial vacuum (.5 bar) and then immediately entrained into the intake manifold and exploded. The main purpose of the modified electrolysis cell is to supply the hydrogen and other chemical intermediaries needed to create *extremely fast* flame spread, in order to quickly raise a compressed mixture of air, solid ice particulates and fuel above the instability range.

Meine beste Schätzung, wie ein Motor ist in der Lage, den Betrieb auf dem Wasser aufrecht-Kraftstoff nicht auf die Elektrolyse ab - ich sehe Elektrolyse selbst versorgen, da nur ein kleiner Teil (~ 20% oder weniger) der benötigten Energie - der Rest kommt von "nicht - Lachen " ) einer Eis Explosion - das ist richtig, explodierte sehr kleinen Partikeln aus Eis, die von Phase gebildet werden, Veränderung in einer Unterdruck (.5 bar) und dann sofort in das Saugrohr und mitgerissen. Der Hauptzweck des modifizierten Elektrolyse Zelle wird mit dem Wasserstoff und anderen chemischen Vermittler erforderlich, um * * extrem schnelle Ausbreitung von Feuer zu Lieferengpässen kommen, um schnell zu erhöhen, um eine komprimierte Gemisch aus Luft, Partikel festes Eis und Kraftstoff über die Instabilität Bereich.



That's right, ice has an instability range and if you overcome that barrier, ice will violently sublimate and explode with a force of perhaps 30,000 psi. (2300bar)
Das ist richtig, hat Eis eine Instabilität Bereich und wenn Sie diese Barriere zu überwinden, wird heftig Eis zu sublimieren, und explodieren mit einer Kraft von etwa 30.000 psi. (2300bar)
Here is a more detailed explanation of this hypothesis: *Explosive Ice Instability and Water-Fuel* Getting small ice crystals to explode violently is not well-known, nor an easy thing to accomplish, and there is only one (Russian) study on the internet that is relevant to this process: "Explosive Ice Instability," EG Fateev
http://alt-nrg.de/pppp/432.pdf
The chart on the second page shows a critical point for Explosive Ice Instability at T ~ 225 K and P ~ 0.03 GPa.
Hier ist eine genauere Erklärung für diese Hypothese: * Explosive Ice Instabilität und Wasser-Fuel * Anreise kleinen Eiskristallen zu explodieren heftig ist nicht bekannt, noch eine einfache Sache zu leisten, und es gibt nur ein (Russisch) Studie über die Internet, um diesen Prozess relevant ist: "Explosive Ice Instabilität," EG Fateev
http://alt-nrg.de/pppp/432.pdf Die Tabelle auf der zweiten Seite zeigt ein kritischer Punkt für Explosive Ice Instabilität bei T ~ 225 K und P ~ 0,03 GPa.


Gustav Pese




Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #208 on: May 01, 2010, 09:15:44 AM »
Concentration of the electrolyte and its nature plays a more complex role in the kinteics of the evolution of both gases so 3% KOH may be an optimal concentration. That doesn't bother me. I can't see, however, based on the standard understanding, how overunity can be achieved under these conditions. There must be something either hitherto unknown happening or what we're seeing, shown by the German colleagues, is just some kind of an experimental error. As seen from the text @mscoffman provided, operating a standard ICE fueled by a hydrogen-air mixture poses complex technical challenges adding to the inefficiency. Therefore, if there's an OU effect due to the electrolysis it has to be so substantial that it would be possible to detect easily even prior to feeding an ICE with its products and getting into even more technical problems.

Aside from the electrolysis, I don't see how the burning of the fuel in the ICE would contribute to an eventual OU effect either, let alone that if there is such it probably would have already been detected when hydrogen as fuel is supplied from sources other than electrolysis. That doesn't seem to be the case.

It would have been easier to study the electrochemical side first and see if there are promises for OU. However, now that the system with the ICE is available the brute force approach to solving this conundrum, by demonstrating in reproducible manner that the system is self-sustaining, is a viable option to definitively conclude that this is anything but trivial. Thus, I, as @vrand, am looking forward to their next video.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #209 on: May 01, 2010, 09:24:49 AM »
@pese,

That's a really exotic hypothesis. To induce pressure, however, one has to do work (in our case at the expense of burning hydrogen). Where's the evidence that ice explosion will not only compensate for the work done but will also add excess energy?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 09:58:49 AM by Omnibus »

 

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