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Author Topic: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !  (Read 284964 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #165 on: April 30, 2010, 02:21:24 PM »
you forgot to add 'which does not work'. there's a video on YouTube where two builders have replicated it exactly, they show the correct waveforms, a large 101-plated cell and so on. But it does not work or at least no overunity.

Can you please give a link to those YouTube vids?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #165 on: April 30, 2010, 02:21:24 PM »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #166 on: April 30, 2010, 02:28:36 PM »
Quote
This whole HHO field has been going on since the '60's with Dr. Rhodes, the original inventor, that sold units to jewelers.

I thought Yul Brown was the original inventor of that so-called HHO gas with the unusual properties we're discussing here. That a torch can be made from the evolved gasses due to electrolysis of water has been known since the days of Faraday, hasn't it?

Offline briansahern

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #167 on: April 30, 2010, 03:12:13 PM »
There has been a lot of confusion with regard to Brown's gas properties. I obtained a unit made in Outer Mongolia and thoroughly quantified its operation in 1995.
1. the efficiency of electrical energy to stored chemical energy in H2 + O2 gas was 87%. It had 60 parallel plates acting is series with 120volts each section acting as a 2volt cell. The system ran at 6 Amps
2. The gas evolved is stoichiometric (2H2 + 1O2)
3. The mixture is highly dangerous and prone to explosions when stored in vessels of large crossection.
4. Storing the gas in  small diameter tubing results in implosions and creation of a partial vacuum. This is because water will condense as a liquid on walls if they are close enough and the liquid occupies only 0.1% of the volume of the gases. In a large container too many reaction occur before condensation occurs.
5. Running an engine on Brown's gas is not routine. The dilution with air is necessary fro smooth operation.
6. All the mysterious properties attributed to Brown's gas, such as melting tungsten are simply combustion processes as tungstean wants to be W2O3
7. There is no magic to Brown's gas. Brown was a 'showman' and had to keep moving.
8. That does not mean that the high voltage electrolysis cannot support over-unity energy production.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #167 on: April 30, 2010, 03:12:13 PM »
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Offline haithar

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #168 on: April 30, 2010, 03:23:03 PM »
Can you please give a link to those YouTube vids?
if i remember correct it was this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF4zuqWEoI0

1. the efficiency of electrical energy to stored chemical energy in H2 + O2 gas was 87%. It had 60 parallel plates acting is series with 120volts each section acting as a 2volt cell. The system ran at 6 Amps
would be very good for using hydrogen as an energy carrier. wikipedia states that the current commercial electrolysers are in the 70% efficiency range.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #169 on: April 30, 2010, 03:40:04 PM »
if i remember correct it was this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF4zuqWEoI0
would be very good for using hydrogen as an energy carrier. wikipedia states that the current commercial electrolysers are in the 70% efficiency range.

Thanks for the link. Not very convincing. Electrochemical systems are complex and need much more involved studies than this. The colleagues with the Anton cell might be doing something worthwhile but the price to get a cell to study it is prohibitive, unfortunately.

Also, we must have something else going on in addition to producing hydrogen. If the goal is to produce hydrogen through electrolysis, that'll be a hopeless pursuit regarding OU. I see a clear tendency to sway the research towards hydrogen economy and that's a way to deliberately kill this field of research.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #169 on: April 30, 2010, 03:40:04 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #170 on: April 30, 2010, 03:54:13 PM »
There has been a lot of confusion with regard to Brown's gas properties. I obtained a unit made in Outer Mongolia and thoroughly quantified its operation in 1995.
1. the efficiency of electrical energy to stored chemical energy in H2 + O2 gas was 87%. It had 60 parallel plates acting is series with 120volts each section acting as a 2volt cell. The system ran at 6 Amps
2. The gas evolved is stoichiometric (2H2 + 1O2)
3. The mixture is highly dangerous and prone to explosions when stored in vessels of large crossection.
4. Storing the gas in  small diameter tubing results in implosions and creation of a partial vacuum. This is because water will condense as a liquid on walls if they are close enough and the liquid occupies only 0.1% of the volume of the gases. In a large container too many reaction occur before condensation occurs.
5. Running an engine on Brown's gas is not routine. The dilution with air is necessary fro smooth operation.
6. All the mysterious properties attributed to Brown's gas, such as melting tungsten are simply combustion processes as tungstean wants to be W2O3
7. There is no magic to Brown's gas. Brown was a 'showman' and had to keep moving.
8. That does not mean that the high voltage electrolysis cannot support over-unity energy production.

Thanks for the explanation. I was just going to ask you how this all happens.

As for the OU through electrolysis of water, it can be done even at low voltage electrolysis but for completely different reasons than the ones that are being discussed here. I even have a patent, which has probably expired already (I don't care about patents but was forced to file for one back then by the institution I used to work for ... those were the days ...)

Now, this new aspect of obtaining a gas with much higher energy efficiency than expected is quite interesting and it has nothing to do with the known electrolysis, if what the German scientists are showing is real. That cannot be achieved by the 87% efficiency mentioned by you. Like I said such gas has to be studied calorimetrically to confirm that it really has the properties claimed. Demonstrating a self-sustaining device is even better but it should be done convincingly without the excuses with Chinese cheapos and stuff.

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #171 on: April 30, 2010, 04:19:34 PM »
See, the sitting on the chair and seeing the car move are the conclusive experiment in your example. On the contrary, in our case here we're not sure if we're dealing with a real phenomenon at all. So, it's not about understanding how it works but whether or not it's just a trivial mistake due to errors in measurement. That's the problem. Proving that it's a real phenomenon in this case isn't as easy as sitting in a chair or turning the ignition key. It doesn't consist in just building those machines. To prove OU or radiation elimination is more involved and that cannot be accomplished by first manufacturing devices and selling them to customers, as in the case of making chairs. The powers that be will immediately use the disgruntled customers to shoot down the research (cf. Perendev). These powers aren't shooting down failed-to-deliver Tokamak or the failed-to-deliver five billion dollar laser fusion project but they will certainly shoot down promptly any OU project at the tiniest opportunity. Therefore there must be iron clad proof that the claimed OU machine is real before setting up a company to sell it to customers the way you have to have a car that moves when driven in order to offer it on the market. Like I said, that isn't easy and hasn't been done yet to satisfy the rigorous criteria of science. Most of what we're seeing are attempts in trying to woo investors with elaborate games based on questionable presentations. Genuine efforts to show quality research openly and competently are a rarity and have not amounted to much so far in convincing those in the know of the validity of the claims.

Sorry to disagree with you  ;)

Technology adoption lifecycle
Beal, Rogers and Bohlen together developed a technology diffusion model[5] and later Everett Rogers generalized the use of it in his widely acclaimed book, Diffusion of Innovations[6] (now in its fifth edition), describing how new ideas and technologies spread in different cultures. Others have since used the model to describe how innovations spread between states in the U.S.[7

The report summarised the categories as:
- innovators - had larger farms, were more educated, more prosperous and more risk-oriented
- early adopters - younger, more educated, tended to be community leaders
- early majority - more conservative but open to new ideas, active in community and influence to neighbours
- late majority - older, less educated, fairly conservative and less socially active
- laggards - very conservative, had small farms and capital, oldest and least educated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DiffusionOfInnovation.png

The famous "Bell Curve"

Anybody who buys something new will fit on that curve.  BTW how does one post a photo in a post on this forum?

I am firmly in the "innovator" camp  ;)

No disrespect, but would I categorize you as a "laggard," very conservative, only buys something when all the proofs and theories have been ironed and the product is well established in the market for years. 

Best regards, Mike R.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #171 on: April 30, 2010, 04:19:34 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #172 on: April 30, 2010, 04:29:11 PM »
I know that theory favored by many libertarians (recall, Gene, a former registered republican later converted to libertarianism). That applies to technology and other utilitarian stuff, not to real scientific innovations. The true revolutions in science that change the world don't work that way. The reality of the effects must first be rigorously proven and only then it can find its way to the market and whatever else. Market is secondary to the true innovations.

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #173 on: April 30, 2010, 04:36:16 PM »
Thanks for the explanation. I was just going to ask you how this all happens.

As for the OU through electrolysis of water, it can be done even at low voltage electrolysis but for completely different reasons than the ones that are being discussed here. I even have a patent, which has probably expired already (I don't care about patents but was forced to file for one back then by the institution I used to work for ... those were the days ...)

Now, this new aspect of obtaining a gas with much higher energy efficiency than expected is quite interesting and it has nothing to do with the known electrolysis, if what the German scientists are showing is real. That cannot be achieved by the 87% efficiency mentioned by you. Like I said such gas has to be studied calorimetrically to confirm that it really has the properties claimed. Demonstrating a self-sustaining device is even better but it should be done convincingly without the excuses with Chinese cheapos and stuff.

That China genset is actually pretty efficient, as it is an OHV ICE  ;)

They showed a running engine and powering a load, while also powering the Anton cell. To me that is VERY convincing.  They now need to make it stable so one man can operate it and show longer operation run powering a load.

A typical natural gas regulator should work. There are kits that one can get off the internet for small ICE's.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #173 on: April 30, 2010, 04:36:16 PM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #174 on: April 30, 2010, 04:38:46 PM »
I know that theory favored by many libertarians (recall, Gene, a former registered republican later converted to libertarianism). That applies to technology and other utilitarian stuff, not to real scientific innovations. The true revolutions in science that change the world don't work that way. The reality of the effects must first be rigorously proven and only then it can find its way to the market and whatever else. Market is secondary to the true innovations.

Lets agree to disagree  ;)

My new signature on this forum  :)
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”
Max Planck

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #175 on: April 30, 2010, 04:42:12 PM »
Back to this:

Quote
6. All the mysterious properties attributed to Brown's gas, such as melting tungsten are simply combustion processes as tungstean wants to be W2O3

Is it true, then, that you can demonstrate the same thing with a common acetylene or some other torch? How about turning a brick into a puddle of liquid or deactivating 60Co? What was all that about?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #175 on: April 30, 2010, 04:42:12 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #176 on: April 30, 2010, 04:43:33 PM »
That China genset is actually pretty efficient, as it is an OHV ICE  ;)

They showed a running engine and powering a load, while also powering the Anton cell. To me that is VERY convincing.  They now need to make it stable so one man can operate it and show longer operation run powering a load.

A typical natural gas regulator should work. There are kits that one can get off the internet for small ICE's.

I agree. If that's made reproducible and stable that will be very convincing. Not yet, though.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #177 on: April 30, 2010, 04:47:12 PM »
Lets agree to disagree  ;)

My new signature on this forum  :)
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”
Max Planck


Of course, that's the case. We are arguing about the method of establishing the new truth and I'm saying market isn't the criterion. There are firmly established scientific criteria for establishing novelty in science let alone novelty of such significance as the one we're discussing. Market, products and the like should be left alone for the time being and focus should be on the scientific research and its criteria to find out if what's being claimed is real.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #178 on: April 30, 2010, 04:49:37 PM »
The market approach is what's causing Steorn, Randy Mills, Mark Goldes, Perendev, Yildiz, Kapanadze, Valeri Ivanov etc. etc., you name it, to stall. That's a tragic state of affairs giving a lot of ammunition to the zealous activist naysayers incited in various ways by the powers that be.

Offline h2ocommuter

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #179 on: April 30, 2010, 05:48:33 PM »
Omnibus, I have to agree with one caveat,

The market approach has two sides to it, one being the world manufacturing, and the other individual replicators.

The world market is virtually impossible to breach, being sustained by consortium's and conglomerates that like what they allready have.
The other being individuals have a infinitely better chance of accomplishing dominance of the technology, being the number of replicators delivering the same product.
This is the secret in my opinion. it is not the technology but how it is widely produced.

Here we have two roads "The Fork", choose wisely and the world becomes your oyster.

Choose wrongly and you get a patent contract. This document is of no value.
If you can build a system that has "merit", you will have no problems delivering all you personally can manufacture.

Just remember SM beginning, Simple with an objective, "produce a fuel that would power an automobile, soon it was accomplished. Well some how he figured the patent process would protect his wonderful invention and it was taken from his original plan.
If we are to succeed in any of these technologies one must get over the love affair with the patent office and this wonderful protection form each other we fear.

my shinny 2 cents

h2ocommuter

 

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