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Author Topic: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !  (Read 285061 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #150 on: April 30, 2010, 03:22:18 AM »
In 1994 I was given $100,000 to replicate Stanley Meyer's work. I paid Eugene Mallove and Jeff Driscoll to visit with him and bring back one piece of information:  Does the water discolor during operation?

They believed that it did and we set out to build his A. That effort turned out to be too difficult and I surreneder in 1995 and gave back $26,000 to the benfactor in defeat.

Since that time I have learned that the A is of secondary consdieration and a modestly high voltage pulsed supply ( alluded to by Anton) will suffice.

Another group in Bologna is doing something similar. Search on Focardi and Rossi. They do not detail their power input other than to say it is 15 watts of electrical energy. I believe it is a pulsed A. My supply puts out 30,000 volt pulses at 13 watts.

My dear friend Gene was really devoted to this area of research (cold fusion, that is) but electrochemistry wasn't his forte, unfortunately. More versed in that area of what some consider fringe science is Randy Mills (Bill in Randy's case is as devoted an assistant as Jeff) but, sadly, he's too stuck with what he considers a theory, involving hydrino. Why should one blame them, though, since even critics such as J.M Calo from Brown University can be observed to make elementary mistakes in their criticism, as seen in Int.J.Hydrogen Energy, 31, 113-1128 (2006), R.M.Santilli's questionable premises notwithstanding. As far as I can see, no one so far has carried out a serious scientific study of the purported HHO gas, let alone that certain aspects of the electrolysis of water itself, considered to be so well studied, are still not well understood.

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #150 on: April 30, 2010, 03:22:18 AM »

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #151 on: April 30, 2010, 05:46:12 AM »
Again, it should be clear that a convincing demonstration of a self-sustaining system would overshadow everything else and would dwarf any of the concerns expressed in this discussion.

The problem is it hasn't been demonstrated convincingly yet and the discussion is about how to approach the further studies. One suggestion is to carry on with the blind trial and error approach expecting to hit the lottery again because the gut feeling is that that has already happened from the telltale signs demonstrated in the video.

On the other hand, rationally, the scientific approach still doesn't detect reasons to expect unusual behavior. Electrochemical cells of this type are something trivial and no unusual behavior has been found in them. If Anton cell behaves differently it has to be demonstrated by appropriate experiments. The most one can expect, if there are no unusual phenomena occurring, is this cell to allow a very nearly reversible electrolysis so the energy spent would be approximately equal to the Gibbs free energy of the reaction (not to be confused with the free energy used as a term in forums such as this) which, of course, is lower than the enthalpy of the burning of hydrogen. That would be interesting, it follows from the standard thermodynamics and in some sense can count as overunity. However, given the great inefficiency of the motors, especially of that cheap Chinese motor, it cannot account for the self-sustaining run of the system. Of course, if the evolution of the gases proceeds as known, the mixture is stoichiometric and the enthalpy is the known enthalpy from the Handbooks of Chemistry and Physics.

It was suggested that prior experiments have left traces of chemicals and that may be the source of the additional energy, not provided by the current source. That's unlikely. Another suggestion is that components of the air such as the nitrogen might contribute to the ostensible excess energy by somehow having the purported HHO catalyze its oxidation at high pressures. A claim that somehow a given proportion of nitrogen in that mixture suddenly changes that enthalpy to incredible values also has to be proved experimentally. As a detail, it would not be gas chromatography that would be suitable to study what that critical mixture is because we are not interested in the retention times of the various components of that gas mixture. Rather we want to know what these species exactly are and what their proportion in the mixture is. That can be provided by mass spectrometry.

A mass spectrometer would be perfect for analyzing both the Anton cell output gases and the exhaust gases from the engine. Maybe there is a local university that has one and that an interested researcher could do some tests  ;)

Some typical things to look for:
- The percentage of the Anton cell HHO of Orthohydrogen vs Parahydrogen?  Orthohydrogen has a higher energy content.
- Any ionized gases from the cell or exhaust?
- The amount of water vapor mixed with the HHO from the cell?
- The amount of NOx, water vapor and NH3 and other gases from the exhaust output?
- Would there be more NH3 and less NOx, if there is more HHO input? Or even H2 at output?

High H2 exhaust emissions 
http://www.waterfuelforall.com/forum/index.php?topic=657.0

...When we supplied gas to the engine at about 35A @27V gasproduction was a between 5-6LPM. Watertemp was around 35c. However what was very noticable was that when the system was activated and gas supplied to the engine, the amount of H2 measured in the exhaust was increased 10 times. So where we would have a round 30-60PPM H2 with the system off, H2 went up towards 600 and over at times.

The smell of ammonia NH3 in the exhaust? Stan Meyer used the Nitrogen in the air along with his HHO to run his Dune Buggy.

From Meyer technical brief page 37:
Quote:
Gas Grid System
Ambient Air is the prime source of Non-Combustible Gases (Nitrogen) when the Air-Gases are exposed to and passes through an Open-Air Flame, as illustrated in Figure (2-10). The Gas Combustion Process of the Gas-Flame eliminates oxygen and burnable gas atoms from the expelling gases ... producing an endless supply of non-combustible gases.
Mixing the "processed" Air-Gases (Nitrogen) with an Hydrogen Supply Source sets up The Gas Retarding Process ... allowing the Hydrogen Gas-Mixture to be transported safely through existing Gas-Grid System.

Operational Parameters
The utilization and recycling of non-combustible gases, now, renders hydrogen gas as safe as Natural Gas or any other Fuel-Gas ... allowing the Water Fuel Cell to become a Retrofit Energy System.
http://img222.imageshack.us/i/slowburning.png/

There are a slew of tests that can be done, now that they can run an engine on an Anton cell.  Just take the whole unit to the university lab and do the tests. It should not take that long to do the tests and then hopefully everyone will know what is happening and why.

Regards, Mike R.


 
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #152 on: April 30, 2010, 06:02:53 AM »
@vrand,

That'll be great if they can convince a university to do the tests but that (the convincing) isn't at all easy to accomplish in practice. These tests require expensive specialized equipment which almost always is tied up with the ongoing research at the department. Besides, it's not just taking the sample and doing the test. Calibrations, are to be done, failures which always accompany tests have to be faced, reproducibility is to be achieved and so on and so forth. It's research and it cannot be done on a fly by night basis. As far as I understand even the likes of Santilly have resorted to paying companies to do the GCMS etc. and that has caused a lot of confusion, as is seen in Calo's paper which I cited above. What is needed are systematic studies and such studies can only be done by qualified personnel equipped with appropriate instruments allocated for that particular purpose. Usually people write grant proposals to, say, NSF for this kind of research but don't hold your breath, NSF and similar organization will never fund such type of studies. One has to be either independently wealthy to fund his own research or has to have the ability to convince investors that sometime in the future there will be a return on their investment. There are signature instances of people that have done that. I haven't heard so far of private individuals funding a project idealistically just for the purposes of establishing the scientific truth. Idealistic funding is only done by organizations such as NSF but, as I said, because of all kind of circumstances, especially political, such research will never be funded by public organizations with public money despite the fact that it is the public who stands to benefit the most from them.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #152 on: April 30, 2010, 06:02:53 AM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #153 on: April 30, 2010, 06:20:28 AM »
My dear friend Gene was really devoted to this area of research (cold fusion, that is) but electrochemistry wasn't his forte, unfortunately. More versed in that area of what some consider fringe science is Randy Mills (Bill in Randy's case is as devoted an assistant as Jeff) but, sadly, he's too stuck with what he considers a theory, involving hydrino. Why should one blame them, though, since even critics such as J.M Calo from Brown University can be observed to make elementary mistakes in their criticism, as seen in Int.J.Hydrogen Energy, 31, 113-1128 (2006), R.M.Santilli's questionable premises notwithstanding. As far as I can see, no one so far has carried out a serious scientific study of the purported HHO gas, let alone that certain aspects of the electrolysis of water itself, considered to be so well studied, are still not well understood.

Yeah, Gene (we miss you) was into over-unity and free energy devises and was well respected in the energy field.

Yull Brown of "Browns Gas" fame did some testing of his HHO gas such as, fueling engines, cutting steel, welding dissimilar materials and gas implosion tests. I found his experiments in radiation remediation very interesting, as a way to clean up the growing piles of nuclear waste from our nuclear power plants.

Advanced transmutation processes and their application for the decontamination of radioactive nuclear wastes
A. Michrowski
President, Planetary Association for Clean Energy, Inc   
http://pacenet.homestead.com/Transmutation.html

On August 6, 1992, almost a year after the Chinese nuclear report, Prof. Yull Brown made a special demonstration to a team of 5 San Francisco field office observers from the United States Department of Energy, at the request of the Hon. Berkeley Bedell.  Cobalt 60 was treated and resulted in a drop of Geiger readings from 1,000 counts to 40 -- resulting in radioactive waste residue of about 0.04 of the original level.  Apprehensive that somehow the radioactivity might have been dispersed into the ambient environment, the official requested the California Department of Health Services to inspect the premises. The health services crew found no radioactivity in the air resulting from this demonstration nor from another repeat demonstration held for their benefit. [11]

It looked like Politics got in the way of solving one of man's most harmful waste products from being solved with the simple application of "Browns Gas."

Best Regards, Mike R.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #154 on: April 30, 2010, 06:29:32 AM »
Yeah, Gene (we miss you) was into over-unity and free energy devises and was well respected in the energy field.

Yull Brown of "Browns Gas" fame did some testing of his HHO gas such as, fueling engines, cutting steel, welding dissimilar materials and gas implosion tests. I found his experiments in radiation remediation very interesting, as a way to clean up the growing piles of nuclear waste from our nuclear power plants.

Advanced transmutation processes and their application for the decontamination of radioactive nuclear wastes
A. Michrowski
President, Planetary Association for Clean Energy, Inc   
http://pacenet.homestead.com/Transmutation.html

On August 6, 1992, almost a year after the Chinese nuclear report, Prof. Yull Brown made a special demonstration to a team of 5 San Francisco field office observers from the United States Department of Energy, at the request of the Hon. Berkeley Bedell.  Cobalt 60 was treated and resulted in a drop of Geiger readings from 1,000 counts to 40 -- resulting in radioactive waste residue of about 0.04 of the original level.  Apprehensive that somehow the radioactivity might have been dispersed into the ambient environment, the official requested the California Department of Health Services to inspect the premises. The health services crew found no radioactivity in the air resulting from this demonstration nor from another repeat demonstration held for their benefit. [11]

It looked like Politics got in the way of solving one of man's most harmful waste products from being solved with the simple application of "Browns Gas."

Best Regards, Mike R.

That's really hard to believe. Sounds like those fellows from the Kabala center here in New York City claiming that they can clean the Chernobil nuclear waste in Ukraine with their special Kabala water but I never saw it demonstrated. I hear there are commercial Brown gas installations produced in South Korea and elsewhere, so this can be verified. If you have access to funding why not try it?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #154 on: April 30, 2010, 06:29:32 AM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #155 on: April 30, 2010, 06:34:42 AM »
@vrand,

That'll be great if they can convince a university to do the tests but that (the convincing) isn't at all easy to accomplish in practice. These tests require expensive specialized equipment which almost always is tied up with the ongoing research at the department. Besides, it's not just taking the sample and doing the test. Calibrations, are to be done, failures which always accompany tests have to be faced, reproducibility is to be achieved and so on and so forth. It's research and it cannot be done on a fly by night basis. As far as I understand even the likes of Santilly have resorted to paying companies to do the GCMS etc. and that has caused a lot of confusion, as is seen in Calo's paper which I cited above. What is needed are systematic studies and such studies can only be done by qualified personnel equipped with appropriate instruments allocated for that particular purpose. Usually people write grant proposals to, say, NSF for this kind of research but don't hold your breath, NSF and similar organization will never fund such type of studies. One has to be either independently wealthy to fund his own research or has to have the ability to convince investors that sometime in the future there will be a return on their investment. There are signature instances of people that have done that. I haven't heard so far of private individuals funding a project idealistically just for the purposes of establishing the scientific truth. Idealistic funding is only done by organizations such as NSF but, as I said, because of all kind of circumstances, especially political, such research will never be funded by public organizations with public money despite the fact that it is the public who stands to benefit the most from them.

I agree Omnibus. Browns Gas is "fringe science" and almost taboo in the university setting, especially after word got out that his gas can remediate  nuclear radioactivity.  That slammed the door on further experiments as current cherish science truths would have to change.

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”

Max Planck

Regards, Mike R.

ps the only way I see this HHO science taking off is when the common man can make or buy a unit to power his house or fuel his car.  After its in wide use, then science will take a look at it.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #156 on: April 30, 2010, 06:35:22 AM »
Way back when I carried out studies on Monti's chemical transmutation. It started promising but later the more in-depth studies revealed that what appeared to be peaks of newly appearing elements in the gamma and beta spectra are simply artefacts which have trivial explanation.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #156 on: April 30, 2010, 06:35:22 AM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #157 on: April 30, 2010, 06:40:25 AM »
That's really hard to believe. Sounds like those fellows from the Kabala center here in New York City claiming that they can clean the Chernobil nuclear waste in Ukraine with their special Kabala water but I never saw it demonstrated. I hear there are commercial Brown gas installations produced in South Korea and elsewhere, so this can be verified. If you have access to funding why not try it?

Yeah if I did have access to funding I would try it out. Yull even made a video of that radiation remediation experiment. Maybe its online somewhere. It was pretty neat  ;)

 

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #158 on: April 30, 2010, 06:42:05 AM »
I agree Omnibus. Browns Gas is "fringe science" and almost taboo in the university setting, especially after word got out that his gas can remediate  nuclear radioactivity.  That slammed the door on further experiments as current cherish science truths would have to change.

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”

Max Planck

Regards, Mike R.

ps the only way I see this HHO science taking off is when the common man can make or buy a unit to power his house or fuel his car.  After its in wide use, then science will take a look at it.

This is what Gene Mallove believed in and he took me once, some 20 years ago, to a relative of his, a lawyer, to help us set up a company together. I refused because utilitarianism comes after establishing the scientific fact. Life is cruel. Science even more. If you don't have money to do the research properly too bad. No mercy. No way around it through making it appear the dream, the promise will somehow turn into a cash cow. We have a lot of examples of that, going nowhere. Even in the mainstream science.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #158 on: April 30, 2010, 06:42:05 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #159 on: April 30, 2010, 06:46:44 AM »
Yeah if I did have access to funding I would try it out. Yull even made a video of that radiation remediation experiment. Maybe its online somewhere. It was pretty neat  ;)

See, we already know how much videos are worth when such claims are to be sustained. How much would it take to get a Brown gas generator and try this darn thing? 60Co is easy to find, these are the calibration tablets for the NaI and Ge detectors. One can use even a Geiger counter for this purpose.

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #160 on: April 30, 2010, 07:34:05 AM »
See, we already know how much videos are worth when such claims are to be sustained. How much would it take to get a Brown gas generator and try this darn thing? 60Co is easy to find, these are the calibration tablets for the NaI and Ge detectors. One can use even a Geiger counter for this purpose.

Yeah, there are several sellers of Browns Gas/HHO units.  When Yull Brown did his radiation remediation experiments back in 1980's he used his big 15-20 LPM machine.

Eagle Research makes a 1200 LPH, 20 LPM unit, at 3 Wh/L, for $3500 FOB.  Accessories (bubbler, hoses, torch tips, etc) available separately.
http://www.blazingwater.com/

See the Presentation for the specs and costs:
http://www.waterwelder.com/ppt/er1200/index.htm

3 Wh/L is good. It would be great to compare the Wh/L and the gas output between the Anton unit and the Eagle Research unit to see who has the better Wh/L efficiency and orthohydrogen gas output.  ;)

The Anton unit is exciting as it is the first HHO unit to run an engine that is also powering the cell!  There is something special happening with that cell. Maybe its producing 100% orthohydrogen? If so, then getting several of them in series/parallel to output 20 LPM might be the way to go.  :)

There were claims back in the '70's down in Australia/New Zealand that Yull converted a car to run on his gas. Nothing came out of that though.

Unknown the efficiencies of the Korea or China brand units. Their prices are around $3-5k.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #160 on: April 30, 2010, 07:34:05 AM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #161 on: April 30, 2010, 08:00:38 AM »
Yeah, there are several sellers of Browns Gas/HHO units.  When Yull Brown did his radiation remediation experiments back in 1980's he used his big 15-20 LPM machine.

Eagle Research makes a 1200 LPH, 20 LPM unit, at 3 Wh/L, for $3500 FOB.  Accessories (bubbler, hoses, torch tips, etc) available separately.
http://www.blazingwater.com/

See the Presentation for the specs and costs:
http://www.waterwelder.com/ppt/er1200/index.htm

3 Wh/L is good. It would be great to compare the Wh/L and the gas output between the Anton unit and the Eagle Research unit to see who has the better Wh/L efficiency and orthohydrogen gas output.  ;)

The Anton unit is exciting as it is the first HHO unit to run an engine that is also powering the cell!  There is something special happening with that cell. Maybe its producing 100% orthohydrogen? If so, then getting several of them in series/parallel to output 20 LPM might be the way to go.  :)

There were claims back in the '70's down in Australia/New Zealand that Yull converted a car to run on his gas. Nothing came out of that though.

Unknown the efficiencies of the Korea or China brand units. Their prices are around $3-5k.

Bob Boyce designed a HHO 101 plate unit that got down to under 1 Wh/L but it is not in production, and you have to build it yourself. See the D9 PDF doc for the spec's.
http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/D9.pdf

This whole HHO field has been going on since the '60's with Dr. Rhodes, the original inventor, that sold units to jewelers.  It never took off commercially as the markets were wide spread and already well established. 

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #162 on: April 30, 2010, 08:57:25 AM »
This is what Gene Mallove believed in and he took me once, some 20 years ago, to a relative of his, a lawyer, to help us set up a company together. I refused because utilitarianism comes after establishing the scientific fact. Life is cruel. Science even more. If you don't have money to do the research properly too bad. No mercy. No way around it through making it appear the dream, the promise will somehow turn into a cash cow. We have a lot of examples of that, going nowhere. Even in the mainstream science.

“On the planet Earth, if you jump up, you will come down is a universal experience. Knowledge about the law of gravity is not. One does not have to understand the law of gravity in order to come down after jumping up."

"The builder of a chair does not have to understand the law of gravity in order to make a chair." 

"Build it and they will come." 


Most consumers have no idea how to build a car or TV or computer, but they use and buy them every day.

The "Free Energy & Over Unity" field is littered with failed experiments that did not work and $$ spent.  It is a rarity to read about a successful experiment that demonstrate an engineered end product that can be purchased by the consumer. 

This Anton genset experiment is one of those rarities  :)

Regards, Mike R.

Offline haithar

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #163 on: April 30, 2010, 12:23:48 PM »
Bob Boyce designed a HHO 101 plate unit that got down to under 1 Wh/L but it is not in production, and you have to build it yourself. See the D9 PDF doc for the spec's.
http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/D9.pdf
you forgot to add 'which does not work'. there's a video on YouTube where two builders have replicated it exactly, they show the correct waveforms, a large 101-plated cell and so on. But it does not work or at least no overunity.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #164 on: April 30, 2010, 02:10:21 PM »
“On the planet Earth, if you jump up, you will come down is a universal experience. Knowledge about the law of gravity is not. One does not have to understand the law of gravity in order to come down after jumping up."

"The builder of a chair does not have to understand the law of gravity in order to make a chair." 

"Build it and they will come." 


Most consumers have no idea how to build a car or TV or computer, but they use and buy them every day.

The "Free Energy & Over Unity" field is littered with failed experiments that did not work and $$ spent.  It is a rarity to read about a successful experiment that demonstrate an engineered end product that can be purchased by the consumer. 

This Anton genset experiment is one of those rarities  :)

Regards, Mike R.

See, the sitting on the chair and seeing the car move are the conclusive experiment in your example. On the contrary, in our case here we're not sure if we're dealing with a real phenomenon at all. So, it's not about understanding how it works but whether or not it's just a trivial mistake due to errors in measurement. That's the problem. Proving that it's a real phenomenon in this case isn't as easy as sitting in a chair or turning the ignition key. It doesn't consist in just building those machines. To prove OU or radiation elimination is more involved and that cannot be accomplished by first manufacturing devices and selling them to customers, as in the case of making chairs. The powers that be will immediately use the disgruntled customers to shoot down the research (cf. Perendev). These powers aren't shooting down failed-to-deliver Tokamak or the failed-to-deliver five billion dollar laser fusion project but they will certainly shoot down promptly any OU project at the tiniest opportunity. Therefore there must be iron clad proof that the claimed OU machine is real before setting up a company to sell it to customers the way you have to have a car that moves when driven in order to offer it on the market. Like I said, that isn't easy and hasn't been done yet to satisfy the rigorous criteria of science. Most of what we're seeing are attempts in trying to woo investors with elaborate games based on questionable presentations. Genuine efforts to show quality research openly and competently are a rarity and have not amounted to much so far in convincing those in the know of the validity of the claims.

 

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