Mind you this, even in the unlikely possibility that the nitrogen or some other component of the air has something to do with the useful burning (and that that hydrogen itself isn't the fuel, as the normal understanding of what goes on is), a proof that the current efficiency of electrolysis is as expected will make this project not more interesting as a concept that those clocks working for over a century without winding due to the daily temperature or pressure differences. That isn't OU and is of only limited practical interest, having nothing to do with the OU revolution many of us here are considering. Same applies to the thermal efficiency of the mixture. Thus, if the significance of this project is to be assessed scientifically and not only in narrow utilitarian terms such studies are a must. Thus, if all is as expected during the electrolysis (never mind what happens later when the mixture is formed) that won't be a self-sustaining device in the sense of an OU effect even in the best outcome, even with load working for hours in a closed fashion.

It is not a simple process of determining Faraday efficiency of the Anton cell that would explain away that they can run the engine with a 1000 watt load and the cell only needs 800-900 watts to generate the HHO gas.  There is more happening inside the engine combustion chamber with HHO + N2 + O2 that we do not know yet.  An exhaust gas analyzer would help 

By all means let them calculate what is the Faraday efficiency of the Anton cell output to input, that should be easy.

My concern was that they go off and redesign an internal combustion engine, as that can take months to do.

Regards, Mike R.

If you are using electricity to make electrolisys, and using the product of the electrolisys to generate electricity, then the only "Efficency" that matters is Overunity.

If you spend more electricity to make electrolisys than the electricity you can generate with the product of that electrolisys, than it has nothing special. You will only be spending electricity from the grid, electricity that was generated by coal power plants.

But the self-run of the system during that 40 seconds is an indication of possible overunity. A longer run can prove that. But, if you are not interested in that, OK. It's your device. You do what you want with it.

Again, it should be clear that a convincing demonstration of a self-sustaining system would overshadow everything else and would dwarf any of the concerns expressed in this discussion.

The problem is it hasn't been demonstrated convincingly yet and the discussion is about how to approach the further studies. One suggestion is to carry on with the blind trial and error approach expecting to hit the lottery again because the gut feeling is that that has already happened from the telltale signs demonstrated in the video.

On the other hand, rationally, the scientific approach still doesn't detect reasons to expect unusual behavior. Electrochemical cells of this type are something trivial and no unusual behavior has been found in them. If Anton cell behaves differently it has to be demonstrated by appropriate experiments. The most one can expect, if there are no unusual phenomena occurring, is this cell to allow a very nearly reversible electrolysis so the energy spent would be approximately equal to the Gibbs free energy of the reaction (not to be confused with the free energy used as a term in forums such as this) which, of course, is lower than the enthalpy of the burning of hydrogen. That would be interesting, it follows from the standard thermodynamics and in some sense can count as overunity. However, given the great inefficiency of the motors, especially of that cheap Chinese motor, it cannot account for the self-sustaining run of the system. Of course, if the evolution of the gases proceeds as known, the mixture is stoichiometric and the enthalpy is the known enthalpy from the Handbooks of Chemistry and Physics.

It was suggested that prior experiments have left traces of chemicals and that may be the source of the additional energy, not provided by the current source. That's unlikely. Another suggestion is that components of the air such as the nitrogen might contribute to the ostensible excess energy by somehow having the purported HHO catalyze its oxidation at high pressures. A claim that somehow a given proportion of nitrogen in that mixture suddenly changes that enthalpy to incredible values also has to be proved experimentally. As a detail, it would not be gas chromatography that would be suitable to study what that critical mixture is because we are not interested in the retention times of the various components of that gas mixture. Rather we want to know what these species exactly are and what their proportion in the mixture is. That can be provided by mass spectrometry.

On April 28, 2010, Directory:Moray King (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Moray_B_King) wrote:

Sterling,

Thanks so much! They posted their announcement on my birthday; what a wonderful gift!

Let's make sure they get my 2009 slide show from your site, "Water Fuel via ZPE"

Thanks again, you made my day!

-Moray
============
See
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Electrolysis/Moray_King/WaterFuelZPE2009.ppt
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Water_Dissociation_Using_Zero_Point_Energy
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Moray_King:Closed-Loop_Water_Fuel_Cell

I am new to the Anton topic. How do I post a comment?  I have a great deal of experience with this topic.

Brians

I will use quick reply formatting. I believe the Anton advantage comes from high voltage pulsing. Stanley Meyer used higher and higher voltage pulses to get over-unity production of gas.

@Hello briansahern

User Paul-R posted this link in another thread here at overunity.com;

There is a lot about this in Patrick's chapter 10:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

There is a lot of information on Stanley Myers system in the above
chapter. They way he used the field-strength input port on the
automobile alternator, while it is not genius, is very clever. He uses
the alternator as a magnetic amplifier of sorts for modulating the high
frequency signal onto the electrolyser feed power and then he can
control the excitation voltage level by how fast the motor turns the
alternator. Each of the three phase alternator phases drive a separate
tube plate in the electrolyser.

How much of this is necessary for overunity, I don't know. But many
overunity schemes seem to use tube plates rather flat plates. He also
may have had a human operator adjusting the output of the cell to
maximize it...Of course a computer can learn to do whatever a human
can in terms of operating adjustments giving the correct programming
and the correct sensors.

Anton if they don't have it already, is close. The problem is to stop them
from moving it into a, very expensive, very unreliable, very undesirable
ICE engine... We need to wait around for someone to demonstate it
by taking away the incompleteness surrounding Anton's demonstration,
and maybe Anton or someone else will demonstrate overunity gain in
the electrolyser.

Doing plasma in the engine is technically a challenge, it's just not worth
all that much in my opinion, without doing a whole development cycle
on the engine.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Keep up the good work!

a simple way to improve efficiency of the generator would to be to increase its compression ratio.  This could be done in several ways.  Mill the head down slightly, make a new head gasket that is thinner then the old one, or even make a system that will introduce a water mist into the intake (since water in liquid form will not compress, it will cause the CR to increase).  I am not sure what CR is max for hydrogen, but I am sure this chinese gen is probably no more then 8 to 1 or so.  Mill the head might be the best to maintain integrity for calculations later on. 

Mark