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Author Topic: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !  (Read 291588 times)

Offline sterlinga

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2010, 09:30:06 PM »
There's no evidence yet to claim that and it's A to set up internet pages giving the appearance that it has already been proven let alone create theories to "explain" it.

You didn't read my introduction.  I make it very clear that this is not proven yet, just interesting at this point.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2010, 09:30:06 PM »

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2010, 09:49:07 PM »
Here is a video if you are interested in running an internal combustion
engine on hydrogen. What this person does in the video and what they
fellows have done is very similar.

Hydrogen Fuel Engine Fundamentals Parts #1 thru 10 link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo88bRN8vFw

You have got to get to fact that air is not pure oxygen. So the
oxygen and hydrogen to the engine may be in stochiometric quantities
but the mixture is not. The engine is designed to run on fuel air mix
and therefore some air is gated in.

---

The experiment needs to be improved as follows;

a) You need a needle value in the fuel line to act as a throttle. You should
couple the throttle to the Hall Effect switch in a way that controls the RPM
of the motor. This will set the 50 Hertz line frequency correctly in the
generator. The Voltage Regulator in the generator are generally resonant
circuits I think so the frequency instability will negatively affect the voltage
stability.

b)You need a hydrogen accumulator and a pressure sensor that controls
how much energy is being gated to the electrolyser. When the pressure
goes down in the accumulator the electrolyser cells should work harder
the bring it back up. For this control you should use a bulk 40VDC supply
rather than a regulated one so that the output voltage follows input.
If the transformer of the power supply doesn't like continuous TRIAC
controls then try using cycle skipping.

c) You need two Variac's variable AC auto-transformers. These are manually
adjusted to split the generators output power between the load and the
electrolyser. The concept is since P=E*I, as you increase the AC voltage
slightly up or down then the power on that path will follow along. Diesel
Electric Locomotives operate this way (sans hydrogen of course) and use
a variable transformer as a Continuously Variable Transmission.

Of course stabilising the feedback loop will do nothing if the electrolyser is not
producing at least somewhat above Faraday hydrogen and oxygen amounts.
It doesn't, by the way, make sense that non-stochiometric quantities of gas
would come from the electrolyser because the feed chemical is water and
if CF Cold Fusion is source of the excess energy, one is never going to see
reaction products because their quantities is so small.

If you have an option get a "Digital" Generator Set as it has a bunch
of features that would make it easier to control the feedback loop.
It essentially works the way the feedback loop should look!

I hope these fellows go on to improve their demonstration because they
started it. :D  I would rather have self-running proof of overunity energy
with a Carnot perfect gas engine rather than measurements anyhow. So
far what they have looks very good.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Thank you for posting the Roy Mcalister Hydrogen video link, I enjoyed seeing how simple it is to convert an engine to run on bottled Hydrogen.   :)

Roy does a fine job over the last 40 years in educating people on the benefits of Hydrogen and that the internal combustion engine is still the most efficient way of using Hydrogen!

It would be great if Roy got into using "Browns Gas" and running his engines on HHO.  ;)

Best regards, Mike R. 

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2010, 10:06:37 PM »

I think now it is time to start a complete new project:

We have one of the best HHO cells (ANTON),
but we also need a highly efficient engine. There are many articels on peswiki.com about much more convenient motors that could be used.
Also a plasma ignition and special spark plugs (Krupa: firestorm, Pulstar Plugs, ... ) can improve the efficiency further.


@mogli

No! Make what you have there work! We want to see a
self-running in system of less than optimal efficiency…So
that we know for sure that there is energy gain *inside*
the Anton cells.

If you make plasma mods to the motor then there will
be overunity gain inside the motor….we want it inside
the Anton cells. There is no higher efficiency motor
due to Carnot heat engine inefficiency. This engine
is not nervous, just un-thottled.

There is higher efficiency inside fuel cells…but I want
that extra efficiency so that I know I can get the
residual energy myself by buying an Anton electrolyser.

Don’t try to eat the buyer's lunch…Prove that the is overunity
inside what you are currently making…Anton cells. Or I will simply
wait to buy a total system package from you …and it will *never*
show up… and then nothing will have been proven. I don’t want
to see overunity energy inside an ICE engine because I don’t
want an Ice Engine. I want overunity energy.

You can’t give guarantees of overunity energy because in court
some high profile person will testify that it doesn’t exist. Create
the proof, then sell what you currently build based on implicit truth.

You don’t have to listen to me, then some MIB will run your unit
for example; on pure light water and either way - it won’t work.
Because you are not designing products according to fundamental
scientific/engineering principles.

---

Currently his system loop instability is masking overunity energy production
in his electrolyser cells and he needs to unmask this information - as in the
truth. Does overunity occur when engine draws a vacuum on Anton cells?

---

Exactly!!

Please Don´t change anything yet!

Please first try to find a Gas Regulator Valve so you can feed the HHO at a steady rate into the engine say at 2 to 5 psi pressure.  So then you can just turn the valve open more for more gas or turn the valve down for less gas input depending on the electrical generator loads.

What you have is something very special.    :)

Keep up the good work!!

We all look forward to seeing more of your tests!

Best regards, Mike R.

Exactly!

---


Based on other claims, there is allways an explanation to why a motor doesn't work as desired. Many inventors tries to explain away the facts that prevents the motor to be a selfrunner. Adjustments are needed, wrong set of magnets, inproper ignition timing, lack of money (Please donate), etc. etc.

The same lesson every time a guy claims OU or something similar - with just a few minor adjustments. Then people are starting to ask questions. The inventor cannot reply, or provide bogus answers. Then the guy dissappear. Some inventors fools "stupid" investors, get ther money and disappear - or get cought by the police...

I'm just sceptic :)

Vidar

Exactly - but we can go a little further in our predictions...

---


Better yet, like I said, is to study the current efficiency and the caloric value of the evolved gases prior to using to run motors.


Yes, but I want proof not just numbers.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2010, 10:06:37 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2010, 10:59:10 PM »
@All

Independent on what Anton does I have some proposals
For experiments based on what is being shown so that
next time we can have less loop instability problems and
maybe hit a little closer.


Experimental Question #1;

In a rank of one-to-ten; “How competent is the fuel system
of a propane fueled 4-cycle small ICE engine system capable
of running directly (one) on pure Hydrogen gas or (two) an
HHO gas feed? Hydrogen Gas Pressure: 5-7PSI. HHO probably
a bit higher. => We need a throtlable engine.


Experimental Question #2:

When running an 4-cycle small ICE engine with a ignition system
powered based on an external DC supply. “How much power
(in volts and milliamperes) is available when an automobile ignition
coil is backward wired to the flywheel magneto in stepdown mode
and the low impedance winding runs to a bridge rectifier and when
loaded to ½ the open circuit voltage by a load resistor?” The concept
is to construct an electronic ignition with a hall effect trigger sensor
that can be interposed on any small engine that does not require
external power. The sensor can operate based either on gears or
a “window” to the engine's cam-shaft.


Experimental Question #3

Is there a propane operated 4-cycle digital inverter generator at ~1KW?


Experimental Question #4

Accumulators slow down the loop response frequency required
to control a feedback loop. “Can additional electronic accumulation
be used to offset hydrogen accumulators -> Come up with a bulk
DC supply with 100Hz AC injection that is externally controllable.
How fast is electrolzer system response? We want to minimize
stored Hydrogen and also use HHO gas.


Experimental Question #5

Can Anton electrolyser be operated at 5PSI while retaining any
reputed overunity characteristics? Normal electrolysers like
higher pressure operation.


:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2010, 11:10:40 PM »
@mscoffman,

Quote
    Better yet, like I said, is to study the current efficiency and the caloric value of the evolved gases prior to using to run motors.


Yes, but I want proof not just numbers.

I know you want the overunity machine itself but it costs money to build it. By studying the gases which is straightforward and  inexpensive you may judge well as to whether or not there will be an OU machine. Why spend tons of money and waste months and years on building a machine which ultimately will prove underunity? This you can see in a matter of hours by studying the gases. Conversely, you can tell within ours if there's promise for OU without excuses for lack of funding or the instability of this or that.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2010, 11:10:40 PM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #125 on: April 28, 2010, 12:39:05 AM »
@mscoffman,

I know you want the overunity machine itself but it costs money to build it. By studying the gases which is straightforward and  inexpensive you may judge well as to whether or not there will be an OU machine. Why spend tons of money and waste months and years on building a machine which ultimately will prove underunity? This you can see in a matter of hours by studying the gases. Conversely, you can tell within ours if there's promise for OU without excuses for lack of funding or the instability of this or that.

Some have speculated that its the Gas Mixture of HHO + N2 +O2 + Combustion = Running engine

And that analyzing just the HHO to see OU would Not be the same.

Inside the combustion chamber there are all kinds of reactions happening. The smell of Ammonia says that the engine was creating NH3.  N3O is possible and that is used in race cars  ;)

Its the mixing of the gases that could create more than the individual gases alone!

As the saying goes "the whole is greater than the pieces"   :)

Best regards, Mike R.

Offline lltfdaniel1

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #126 on: April 28, 2010, 12:39:34 AM »
The entire secret of the universe and nature is that it generates it's self, behind time everything in precreation is those unbalanced spins.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #126 on: April 28, 2010, 12:39:34 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #127 on: April 28, 2010, 12:42:44 AM »
Some have speculated that its the Gas Mixture of HHO + N2 +O2 + Combustion = Running engine

And that analyzing just the HHO to see OU would Not be the same.

Inside the combustion chamber there are all kinds of reactions happening. The smell of Ammonia says that the engine was creating NH3.  N3O is possible and that is used in race cars  ;)

Its the mixing of the gases that could create more than the individual gases alone!

As the saying goes "the whole is greater than the pieces"   :)

Best regards, Mike R.

No problem to study that mixture calorimetrically. Burn it inside a calorimeter rather than inseide expensive motors and what not. It will not only be cheaper but will also be more accurate -- efficiency of the motor won't interfere.

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2010, 01:31:09 AM »
No problem to study that mixture calorimetrically. Burn it inside a calorimeter rather than inseide expensive motors and what not. It will not only be cheaper but will also be more accurate -- efficiency of the motor won't interfere.

The conditions inside an engine is difficult to recreate outside.  You have high compression and a high voltage arc/spark. 

The guys doing the experiment already say its a "cheap china" engine so really not a problem for them to continue to use that engine.   :)

Engines are cheap so might as well use them  ;)

Regards, Mike R.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2010, 01:31:09 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #129 on: April 28, 2010, 01:41:19 AM »
The conditions inside an engine is difficult to recreate outside.  You have high compression and a high voltage arc/spark. 

The guys doing the experiment already say its a "cheap china" engine so really not a problem for them to continue to use that engine.   :)

Engines are cheap so might as well use them  ;)

Regards, Mike R.

They said "cheap China engine" as a detriment. Aside from that, think about the energy balance. Compression has to come at a cost. If it's to be a self-sustaining device the only source will be that gas mixture coming from the electrolysis. Nothing else. If the mixture, including all that proportion coming from air isn't thermally efficient enough, that is, more than what it's known to be, all that talk of OU is just a pipe dream. And here's where the study of the thermal efficiency of the gas kicks in, prior to using it further in engines and such. That step is unavoidable, especially given the overall low efficiency of motors (motor, then generator, then electrolysis, forget it).

Offline h2ocommuter

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #130 on: April 28, 2010, 01:43:34 AM »
This is outstanding work, Very compotent engeeniiring and thoughfullness in conception and aproach.
As stated before, controling the gas is of primary importance.
Noted, Roy M, Bob B, Stanley M. all were able to achieve this same goal through modulation of the rate gas is produced and utilized. therein.  Great work!

I hope this can shed some light on the efficiency of these Anton cells. I have built many different kinds of cells.

When testing each cell I allways run the calculations through these spreadsheet to see how the cell stacks up to the maximum Faraday.

Any cell that approaches 100% is outstanding. Any cell structure that overcomes Maximum Faraday is Better than 99.99% of all cells ever built.

Please save a copy for your testings.

I did not build either of these calculators I only applied them in my own fancyfull arrangement.

h2ocommuter

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #130 on: April 28, 2010, 01:43:34 AM »
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Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #131 on: April 28, 2010, 02:58:18 AM »
They said "cheap China engine" as a detriment. Aside from that, think about the energy balance. Compression has to come at a cost. If it's to be a self-sustaining device the only source will be that gas mixture coming from the electrolysis. Nothing else. If the mixture, including all that proportion coming from air isn't thermally efficient enough, that is, more than what it's known to be, all that talk of OU is just a pipe dream. And here's where the study of the thermal efficiency of the gas kicks in, prior to using it further in engines and such. That step is unavoidable, especially given the overall low efficiency of motors (motor, then generator, then electrolysis, forget it).

Here is the genset they used. At $140 euro its inexpensive, compared to spending the time & money having to build a new separate test rig to test high voltage and high pressure of the HHO gas and air mix.

This is also an OHV engine which is more efficient than a typical B&S push rod engine  ;)

Syncron generator 230V
with Automatic Voltregulierung (AVR)


small and light, for lighting and other applications

Power Output:
Peak power: 1200w (1.2 KVA)
Rated power: 1000w (1.0 KVA)
Unions: 230V/50Hz and 1x 12V DC
with Voltmeteranzeige
Protection class: IP23

Engine:
Maximum power 2.8 hp
Capacity 84cm ³
Cooling air cooling
Engine type 4 stroke, OHV
Tank capacity 5.5 liters
Oil volume 0.4 liters
Oil level warning yes
65db volume in 7 meters distance


Pull start Yes
Last about 10 hours on one tank

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.holzer-spalter.de/wbc.php%3Fsid%3D705684a69b4%26tpl%3Dproduktdetail.html%26pid%3D46%26rid%3D11%26recno%3D5&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhifVp5q0oIgxjT9UiyWTWLyiTj02w

Regards, Mike R.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #132 on: April 28, 2010, 04:27:25 AM »
Here is the genset they used. At $140 euro its inexpensive, compared to spending the time & money having to build a new separate test rig to test high voltage and high pressure of the HHO gas and air mix.

This is also an OHV engine which is more efficient than a typical B&S push rod engine  ;)

Syncron generator 230V
with Automatic Voltregulierung (AVR)


small and light, for lighting and other applications

Power Output:
Peak power: 1200w (1.2 KVA)
Rated power: 1000w (1.0 KVA)
Unions: 230V/50Hz and 1x 12V DC
with Voltmeteranzeige
Protection class: IP23

Engine:
Maximum power 2.8 hp
Capacity 84cm ³
Cooling air cooling
Engine type 4 stroke, OHV
Tank capacity 5.5 liters
Oil volume 0.4 liters
Oil level warning yes
65db volume in 7 meters distance


Pull start Yes
Last about 10 hours on one tank

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.holzer-spalter.de/wbc.php%3Fsid%3D705684a69b4%26tpl%3Dproduktdetail.html%26pid%3D46%26rid%3D11%26recno%3D5&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhifVp5q0oIgxjT9UiyWTWLyiTj02w

Regards, Mike R.

I understand what you're saying but, as you can see, they cannot run it for a longer period and they blame it on the cheap junk they're using. Of course, nothing beats a self-sustaining demo, if it's correctly done. On the other hand, rigorous scientific study of the evolved gases is something unquestionable, it does not depend on the efficiencies of the motors, no matter how perfect they are, it doesn't depend on other technicalities used as excuse. It is straightforward and no wonder people go along that route rather than jump into the unstudied territories of trying to build devices based on faith. Rigorous calorimetric studies will resolve promptly and conclusively any doubt one way or the other. That's the scientific approach, building motors based on faith is the garage-genius approach which may or most likely may not work but maybe it's fun to tinker. All power to them if they enjoy it and especially if it happens to bring results. It's methodogically flawed but, hey, if they really demonstrate a self-sustaining device who cares.

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #133 on: April 28, 2010, 06:37:48 AM »
I understand what you're saying but, as you can see, they cannot run it for a longer period and they blame it on the cheap junk they're using. Of course, nothing beats a self-sustaining demo, if it's correctly done. On the other hand, rigorous scientific study of the evolved gases is something unquestionable, it does not depend on the efficiencies of the motors, no matter how perfect they are, it doesn't depend on other technicalities used as excuse. It is straightforward and no wonder people go along that route rather than jump into the unstudied territories of trying to build devices based on faith. Rigorous calorimetric studies will resolve promptly and conclusively any doubt one way or the other. That's the scientific approach, building motors based on faith is the garage-genius approach which may or most likely may not work but maybe it's fun to tinker. All power to them if they enjoy it and especially if it happens to bring results. It's methodogically flawed but, hey, if they really demonstrate a self-sustaining device who cares.

Yea, they took off the throttle valve and carburetor body, just like Roy McAlister recommended in his videos, but now only need to control the HHO gas input somehow. Roy used a tank of H2 and fed the engine on 5 psi of H2.  Feeding HHO from their cells can fluctuate the HHO output gas (adding more or less amps) as well as the engine fluctuating when going from Idle to Full load.

They said that they ran the engine on Idle for hours to heat their office from the exhaust heat!   That makes sense, when there is no adding or subtracting loads to fluctuate the engine RPM, and when they created a steady state production of HHO from their cells (as Roy M. recommends).

They got VERY lucky hitting the right cell/gas/air/engine combination setup to get the engine to Idle for hours and also powering a load for 40 seconds.  Now its just a simple matter of valving the gas to meet the loads added to the engine.

They are 95% to 99% there.  

To start over and build a calorimetric setup could set them back months and lots of time and money. Or to design a new engine, or wait for someone to build a perfect engine could also take months to years.

They hit the jackpot and I say keep on going with what you got  :)

Best regards, Mike R. 

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #134 on: April 28, 2010, 07:11:16 AM »
No, you try to make it appear it will take them months to do the obvious. On the contrary, they can assess the current efficiency right away. They even showed a video to that effect but it wasn't clear what exactly they got there. If the current efficiency, prior to making the gas-air mixture is as expected then the only possibility for anything unusual (OU) is the thermal efficiency of the mixture to be greater than expected and that can also be measured right away. If that's also as expected then, forget it, there's nothing to it and what we're seeing is due to trivial  causes. I'm not saying to abandon what they have but it isn't conclusive. Obviously, they'll continue excusing themselves for that inconclusiveness with the cheap Chinese motor, lack of funds and what not while they can take the bull by the horns and promptly demonstrate unusual current efficiencies and/or caloric values of the fuel. Everything else is beating around the bush and prolonging a potential agony. Other areas of OU research are showing similar signs due to various reasons.

 

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