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Author Topic: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !  (Read 285129 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #135 on: April 28, 2010, 07:22:45 AM »
Mind you this, even in the unlikely possibility that the nitrogen or some other component of the air has something to do with the useful burning (and that that hydrogen itself isn't the fuel, as the normal understanding of what goes on is), a proof that the current efficiency of electrolysis is as expected will make this project not more interesting as a concept that those clocks working for over a century without winding due to the daily temperature or pressure differences. That isn't OU and is of only limited practical interest, having nothing to do with the OU revolution many of us here are considering. Same applies to the thermal efficiency of the mixture. Thus, if the significance of this project is to be assessed scientifically and not only in narrow utilitarian terms such studies are a must. Thus, if all is as expected during the electrolysis (never mind what happens later when the mixture is formed) that won't be a self-sustaining device in the sense of an OU effect even in the best outcome, even with load working for hours in a closed fashion.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #135 on: April 28, 2010, 07:22:45 AM »

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #136 on: April 28, 2010, 08:26:05 AM »
Mind you this, even in the unlikely possibility that the nitrogen or some other component of the air has something to do with the useful burning (and that that hydrogen itself isn't the fuel, as the normal understanding of what goes on is), a proof that the current efficiency of electrolysis is as expected will make this project not more interesting as a concept that those clocks working for over a century without winding due to the daily temperature or pressure differences. That isn't OU and is of only limited practical interest, having nothing to do with the OU revolution many of us here are considering. Same applies to the thermal efficiency of the mixture. Thus, if the significance of this project is to be assessed scientifically and not only in narrow utilitarian terms such studies are a must. Thus, if all is as expected during the electrolysis (never mind what happens later when the mixture is formed) that won't be a self-sustaining device in the sense of an OU effect even in the best outcome, even with load working for hours in a closed fashion.

It is not a simple process of determining Faraday efficiency of the Anton cell that would explain away that they can run the engine with a 1000 watt load and the cell only needs 800-900 watts to generate the HHO gas.  There is more happening inside the engine combustion chamber with HHO + N2 + O2 that we do not know yet.  An exhaust gas analyzer would help  ;)

By all means let them calculate what is the Faraday efficiency of the Anton cell output to input, that should be easy.

My concern was that they go off and redesign an internal combustion engine, as that can take months to do.

Regards, Mike R.

Offline sushimoto

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #137 on: April 28, 2010, 11:59:24 AM »
Hi,

please keep in mind, that we are NOT talking about "Overunity" but Efficency instead.
What has been archived ist not an quantitative "breakthrough" in Terms of simple LPM
or calorimetric value, but a qualitative one. Its easy to burn the gas and "measure" ist calorimetric energy, but what we need is some gas chromatography in order to
find out the "mixture by accident".

Maybe it not a good idea to make another video of 30 minutes,
because nobody can be sure to find the right mixture of Urea, Air, Acetone, citric acid,
acetic acid and everything else that was testet and pbly. remained in the cells.

The setup should maybe not be sacrefied just to make another fancy youtube?

best regards,
Oliver

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #137 on: April 28, 2010, 11:59:24 AM »
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Offline Rapadura

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #138 on: April 28, 2010, 01:39:49 PM »
If you are using electricity to make electrolisys, and using the product of the electrolisys to generate electricity, then the only "Efficency" that matters is Overunity.

If you spend more electricity to make electrolisys than the electricity you can generate with the product of that electrolisys, than it has nothing special. You will only be spending electricity from the grid, electricity that was generated by coal power plants.

But the self-run of the system during that 40 seconds is an indication of possible overunity. A longer run can prove that. But, if you are not interested in that, OK. It's your device. You do what you want with it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline helmut

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #139 on: April 28, 2010, 02:50:24 PM »
If i read all the coments and think it over. I just scatch my head
and ask myselve,   what is going on in this community.

There is a presentation.
No connection to any grid.
The generator feeds the transformer.
The Transformer feeds the Anton and the Anton feeds the Generator
and so on.  Thats the proof!
Switch of the transformer, cause the Engine after 4-5 Seconds to die.
So at least 35 seconds water only, was the fuel.
 The next step will be to build a exhaust to minimise the sound level.
And find a efficient way to control the Sparc timing and the air mixture.
The loop wil be closed . When the Exhaust guides the Water and air
direct into the Anton.

helmut

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #139 on: April 28, 2010, 02:50:24 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #140 on: April 28, 2010, 02:50:37 PM »
Again, it should be clear that a convincing demonstration of a self-sustaining system would overshadow everything else and would dwarf any of the concerns expressed in this discussion.

The problem is it hasn't been demonstrated convincingly yet and the discussion is about how to approach the further studies. One suggestion is to carry on with the blind trial and error approach expecting to hit the lottery again because the gut feeling is that that has already happened from the telltale signs demonstrated in the video.

On the other hand, rationally, the scientific approach still doesn't detect reasons to expect unusual behavior. Electrochemical cells of this type are something trivial and no unusual behavior has been found in them. If Anton cell behaves differently it has to be demonstrated by appropriate experiments. The most one can expect, if there are no unusual phenomena occurring, is this cell to allow a very nearly reversible electrolysis so the energy spent would be approximately equal to the Gibbs free energy of the reaction (not to be confused with the free energy used as a term in forums such as this) which, of course, is lower than the enthalpy of the burning of hydrogen. That would be interesting, it follows from the standard thermodynamics and in some sense can count as overunity. However, given the great inefficiency of the motors, especially of that cheap Chinese motor, it cannot account for the self-sustaining run of the system. Of course, if the evolution of the gases proceeds as known, the mixture is stoichiometric and the enthalpy is the known enthalpy from the Handbooks of Chemistry and Physics.

It was suggested that prior experiments have left traces of chemicals and that may be the source of the additional energy, not provided by the current source. That's unlikely. Another suggestion is that components of the air such as the nitrogen might contribute to the ostensible excess energy by somehow having the purported HHO catalyze its oxidation at high pressures. A claim that somehow a given proportion of nitrogen in that mixture suddenly changes that enthalpy to incredible values also has to be proved experimentally. As a detail, it would not be gas chromatography that would be suitable to study what that critical mixture is because we are not interested in the retention times of the various components of that gas mixture. Rather we want to know what these species exactly are and what their proportion in the mixture is. That can be provided by mass spectrometry.

Offline felix.lamet

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #141 on: April 28, 2010, 05:22:08 PM »
Can someone proof this with a schematic or a guide?
greetings

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #141 on: April 28, 2010, 05:22:08 PM »
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Offline sterlinga

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Happy Birthday to Moray
« Reply #142 on: April 29, 2010, 05:35:07 AM »
On April 28, 2010, Directory:Moray King (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Moray_B_King) wrote:

Sterling,

Thanks so much! They posted their announcement on my birthday; what a wonderful gift!

Let's make sure they get my 2009 slide show from your site, "Water Fuel via ZPE"

Thanks again, you made my day!

-Moray
============
See
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Electrolysis/Moray_King/WaterFuelZPE2009.ppt
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Water_Dissociation_Using_Zero_Point_Energy
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Moray_King:Closed-Loop_Water_Fuel_Cell

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #143 on: April 29, 2010, 06:56:52 AM »
Zero point energy is a problem in quantum mechanics which has to be dealt with in order to improve quantum mechanics, rather than use it as a candidate explanation of a phenomenon whose own reality is questionable.The presentation summarizes results of enthusiasts while the mentioned academics cause one to be even less enthusiastic in considering this as a legitimate area of research. Therefore, as it was made clear and I can't agree more, nothing short of a self-sustaining system can legitimize the claims by the few enthusiasts that there's something to it as a new energy phenomenon worthy of study. In this respect the effort of the German group we're discussing is a step in the right direction.

Now I realize it isn't the first time I'm hearing about this gas. Several years ago I met someone who had been a personal friend of the Bulgarian inventor Yul Brown credited with what is claimed to be a discovery, discussed here. The lack of hard data of the energy balances and the heavy reliance on telltale signs made me reluctant to consider it further. The same would have applied today had it not been for the announcement of our German colleagues that they have achieved self-sustaining state of their machine. I hope they can make it easily reproducible and determine the exact conditions for achieving that state so that independent parties can reproduce their result.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #143 on: April 29, 2010, 06:56:52 AM »
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Offline briansahern

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #144 on: April 29, 2010, 07:43:25 PM »
I am new to the Anton topic. How do I post a comment?  I have a great deal of experience with this topic.

Brians

Offline briansahern

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #145 on: April 29, 2010, 07:46:07 PM »
I will use quick reply formatting. I believe the Anton advantage comes from high voltage pulsing. Stanley Meyer used higher and higher voltage pulses to get over-unity production of gas.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #145 on: April 29, 2010, 07:46:07 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #146 on: April 29, 2010, 08:58:13 PM »
I will use quick reply formatting. I believe the Anton advantage comes from high voltage pulsing. Stanley Meyer used higher and higher voltage pulses to get over-unity production of gas.

@Hello briansahern

User Paul-R posted this link in another thread here at overunity.com;

There is a lot about this in Patrick's chapter 10:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

There is a lot of information on Stanley Myers system in the above
chapter. They way he used the field-strength input port on the
automobile alternator, while it is not genius, is very clever. He uses
the alternator as a magnetic amplifier of sorts for modulating the high
frequency signal onto the electrolyser feed power and then he can
control the excitation voltage level by how fast the motor turns the
alternator. Each of the three phase alternator phases drive a separate
tube plate in the electrolyser.

How much of this is necessary for overunity, I don't know. But many
overunity schemes seem to use tube plates rather flat plates. He also
may have had a human operator adjusting the output of the cell to
maximize it...Of course a computer can learn to do whatever a human
can in terms of operating adjustments giving the correct programming
and the correct sensors.

Anton if they don't have it already, is close. The problem is to stop them
from moving it into a, very expensive, very unreliable, very undesirable
ICE engine... We need to wait around for someone to demonstate it
by taking away the incompleteness surrounding Anton's demonstration,
and maybe Anton or someone else will demonstrate overunity gain in
the electrolyser.

Doing plasma in the engine is technically a challenge, it's just not worth
all that much in my opinion, without doing a whole development cycle
on the engine.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline vrand

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #147 on: April 29, 2010, 10:51:23 PM »
Quote from: helmut link=topic=9099.msg239466#msg239466 A=1272459024
If i read all the coments and think it over. I just scatch my head
and ask myselve,   what is going on in this community.

There is a presentation.
No connection to any grid.
The generator feeds the transformer.
The Transformer feeds the Anton and the Anton feeds the Generator
and so on.  Thats the proof!
Switch of the transformer, cause the Engine after 4-5 Seconds to die.
So at least 35 seconds water only, was the fuel.
 The next step will be to build a exhaust to minimise the sound level.
And find a efficient way to control the Sparc timing and the air mixture.
The loop wil be closed . When the Exhaust guides the Water and air
direct into the Anton.

helmut

Hi Helmut,

I did not know that the generator was powering the Anton Cells, while idling for hours and that load test?!?!?

If that is true then Oliver & Valentin hit the jackpot  ;D

Now its just a matter of doing a longer engine load run, say 5 mins., at say 500 watts load.  And LOTS of people will be wanting them to build a unit for sale, or donating money for them to build more and larger units!

I thought the power to power the cells was coming from the wall plug, and they did a simple calculation to so power out > power in?

Best regards, Mike R.


Offline Mark69

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #148 on: April 29, 2010, 11:49:59 PM »
Keep up the good work!

a simple way to improve efficiency of the generator would to be to increase its compression ratio.  This could be done in several ways.  Mill the head down slightly, make a new head gasket that is thinner then the old one, or even make a system that will introduce a water mist into the intake (since water in liquid form will not compress, it will cause the CR to increase).  I am not sure what CR is max for hydrogen, but I am sure this chinese gen is probably no more then 8 to 1 or so.  Mill the head might be the best to maintain integrity for calculations later on. 

Mark

Offline briansahern

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Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
« Reply #149 on: April 30, 2010, 02:15:51 AM »
In 1994 I was given $100,000 to replicate Stanley Meyer's work. I paid Eugene Mallove and Jeff Driscoll to visit with him and bring back one piece of information:  Does the water discolor during operation?

They believed that it did and we set out to build his power supply. That effort turned out to be too difficult and I surreneder in 1995 and gave back $26,000 to the benfactor in defeat.

Since that time I have learned that the power supply is of secondary consdieration and a modestly high voltage pulsed supply ( alluded to by Anton) will suffice.

Another group in Bologna is doing something similar. Search on Focardi and Rossi. They do not detail their power input other than to say it is 15 watts of electrical energy. I believe it is a pulsed power supply. My supply puts out 30,000 volt pulses at 13 watts.

 

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