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Author Topic: Question about Waste Spark  (Read 9858 times)

Offline WildBill

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Question about Waste Spark
« on: April 28, 2010, 01:13:04 AM »
I'm new to this pursuit,   ::) so pardon me if this question has been asked before. Wouldn't it be simpler to run a 2 stroke motor on HHO than a 4 stroke? at least as far as the waste spark and timing are concerned? of course, you would still need to have oil injection for lubrication.... Just a thought.

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Question about Waste Spark
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 01:41:57 AM »

Yes, but that lube oil injection is the key concern, without
doing a lot of chemistry on the exhaust there no chance
of closed loop opr. Ethanol fuel is easier. Plus it's combustion
energy "messes up" the energy balance. Got any ideas...
recoverable silicon lubricant? If that would work...I'm
listening. That stuff is good, but that good? 8)

You would still need to modify the timing I think to 0
degrees TDC. They literally have to start hydrocarbons
detonating before the piston is in a position to accept
energy because of the slow combustion wavefront.


Offline WildBill

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Re: Question about Waste Spark
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 05:08:34 AM »
Good point Mark, I really wasn't thinking about the oil as part of the combustion. Perhaps more along the lines of a dry-sump synthetic  lube circulation system? I know the old Detroit Silver Eagle 2 stroke engines could "run away" when the crankcase oil started to get sucked into the combustion chamber. Hmmm.. Non conbustible lube?  :-\

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Question about Waste Spark
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 05:13:25 AM »
I had a 79 VW rabbit diesel. It had some problem with pushing engine oil into the intake and running crazy high rpms all on its own, till the oil ran low.  Would smoke a whole block. So HHO on a diesel would not be a way to go. lol


Offline WildBill

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Re: Question about Waste Spark
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 05:29:41 AM »
Maybe the inherit properties of a 2 stroke make it less of a candidate than the 4 stroke, if only because of the lubricating issues. maybe the more sensible challenge is to design a good, reliable timing mechanism for the 4 stroke. Especially if we want low speed, hi-power output.

Offline CompuTutor

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Re: Question about Waste Spark
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 07:06:12 AM »
Just pick up switch info from the intake's valve train
to disable that pesky "Waste" spark entirely.

The typical exaust to intake valve train overlap
will assure the intake will already be opening
just past your TDC (Top Dead Center) spark.

So using it on the magneto's kill wire is a snap...

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Question about Waste Spark
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2010, 02:33:18 PM »
There is a lot about this in Patrick's chapter 10:

Offline CompuTutor

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Re: Question about Waste Spark
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 09:14:00 PM »
I am going to state a few things that are obvious to many of us,
but might be helpful to those that haven't visualized the problem.

As has been established in above posts,
only every other TDC is a power stroke.
(Top Dead Center of the piston stroke)

And due to Hydrogen having the property of
being the fastest flame propagation gas of all. 

You don't need to start the "Fire" before TDC,
like you do with much slower hydrocarbon fuels.

Basically what you need is a 2:1 reduction ratio
in relation to the crankshaft's current orientation.

I pointed out the obvious data pickup point above,
with the intake valve being the focus of course.

But that was to use the wire off of any magneto
that is used to stop the engine when done using it.

As the intake valve is in motion at the required time,
I chose that as a fast and dirty "Fix" for all to use.

But the correct way is to get the proper timing information,
and have that be adjustable (To a fine degree) as well.

But anything that has a 2:1 reduction will do.

From the cam gear onward, all things are half speed.

A magnet epoxied on the cam gear edge,
and a "Hall Effect" sensor stationary mounted,
with the circuit from PDF #10 above works too.

Both can handle the oily environment and the heat
if proper parts are selected (Google "Curie Point").

Or an external 2:1 gearset like the "Anton" idea:;topic=9099.0;attach=44176;image

The Hall Effect sensor is on the stick bottom,
the magnet in that larger plastic 2:1 wheel.

The simplicity of adjustability,
is hampered by many failure points.

I know we live in a day and age of electronic ignition,
But I'm an ancient oldie that believes in points and cap.

An many here may not be electronically inclined too.

So a good-ole set of points and a capacitor instead,
and a trigger bump on the larger wheel for the points.

Might be well within the grasp of all reading here,
considering common home tools, basic knowledge,
and of course, HomeDepot/Lowes hardware selections.

A bump or divot on the cam gear,
a small hole through the crankcase,
and a follower pin to "Points" outside.

That's my vote instead though...

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Question about Waste Spark
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 11:01:00 PM »

One thing we need to understand this is a conversion
of a machine for a demonstration of overunity energy
rather then a permanent design. I sort of like Anton's
variable timing adjustment based on their "stick". Mechanical
points have a relatively high put still possible potential
to "float" - that is not make contact. Sealed mechanical
magnetic switches used in electric motors make it to 3->4K
RPM enough but potentially problematic. BTW It may be
possible to adjust timing on the fly to help augment throttle
control. I like my idea of generating power based in the
engines magneto's two sparks and then interposing an
electronic ignition on the engine powered from there
rather than an external (+12Vdc supply). By the way
there are other problems in vehicle engines different
from problems in small 4-cycle "fixed use" ICE engines.


So to cover specific Antons problems:

a] No throttle to control for a very specific ICE
engine RPM requirement to Hz conversion function in
their generator. (Specific to non-inverter generators)

b] No 5psiaa lower limit on electrolyser hydrogen output.
(Don't expect this will be done without overunity-
...So this is an overunity metric)

c] Lack of throttlable electrolyser power supply voltage.
Plus a hydrogen buffer accumulator if required
to measure pressure. (acc. is non HHO only)

d] Need to consider load energy dump control for
overunity systems. (Not a requirement if
overunity can't be done).

Hopefully, we will see some non-problem aliased
Anton overunity videos on youtube in the future.
Actually a sped up video using a clock would not
be so bad. All these problems with start up "chemicals"
disappear in the long run.