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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: magnetman12003 on April 19, 2010, 03:16:15 PM

Title: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 19, 2010, 03:16:15 PM
This You Tube video shows and tells all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj388d43Ufo&feature=channel
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: happyfunball on April 19, 2010, 03:23:35 PM
What are your calculations
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on April 19, 2010, 04:26:55 PM
This you tube video shows and tells all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj388d43Ufo&feature=channel

Hi Tom,

Would you mind placing a 47 or 56 or even a 100 kiloOhm (choose one from your box, a potmeter is also ok) normal resistor in series with your bulb and see if the measured current goes down proportionally, measured with the same clamp-on current meter? 

Otherwise, I am afraid the revolving magnet fools the current measuring head of your meter.  It starts from about 41mA and goes down to 27mA. 
Normally a neon bulb like you use takes between 0.4 to 2mA current when the voltage level reaches the so-called break down voltage across its legs.
There are special types that take up between 5-10mA current when they reach their breakdown voltage

Because you do not use a series resistor with your neon bulb the only current limiting factor in your output circuit is the coil's inner reactance which consists of the DC resistance of the coil and its AC inductive reactance.  Would you check the DC resistance of the coil with a digital Ohm meter? 

Here is a link on neon bulbs of some types, it includes recommanded series resistor values too: http://www.plusopto.co.uk/pdfs/incanlamps%20pdfs/Neon1.pdf 

I hope this helps clarify if I am wrong on your clamp  meter flux pick-up from the revolving magnet.

One more notice: a neon bulb do not take up any current under its break down voltage,  works just like a Zener diode. This means that feeding it with AC voltage, current can only flow whenever the positive or negative peak voltages exceed that breakdown voltage (55-90V, type dependent), under those values the neon bulb behaves as if it were not there as a load at all... 

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Low-Q on April 19, 2010, 05:31:35 PM
The rotating magnet is inducing a magnetic field in the AC-meter which fools the readings. Use a long wire so you can measure the AC-current from a greater distance. Then you'll see that lamp doesn't pull that amount of current (If so, these lamps should be banned ;D).
A magnetic field around a single wire, even at high AC-current, is nothing compared to a spinning magnetic field from a big block of a rotating neodym magnet.

Vidar
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 19, 2010, 05:36:35 PM
You might be right about all of that. I am currently constructing a minature full wave bridge rectifier.
I will dump all the AC output into it. Sure there will be some power loss but it then becomes very easy to compare input to output power as both are now DC.  Hi frequency AC is tricky to measure correctly.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on April 19, 2010, 10:54:01 PM
You might be right about all of that. I am currently constructing a minature full wave bridge rectifier.
I will dump all the AC output into it. Sure there will be some power loss but it then becomes very easy to compare input to output power as both are now DC.  Hi frequency AC is tricky to measure correctly.

@magnetman

I want to commend you for doing the logically correct thing. For small
devices >400Watts it makes sense to make power measurements
at 12Vdc or there abouts because the current is higher and it's
easy to filter the signal so that the time constant of the filter is
longer than the gating time of the instrument(s). Accurately
measuring the power of an AC signal with instrumentation is almost
the definition of an impossibility. I don't care who or what is doing it
- I don't trust it.

If you want to give yourself some more accuracy build a rectifier
bridge from four Schottky or Germanium diodes capable of handling
the current.

If you downconvert to twelve volts DC you can use an automobile
lighter inverter to step it back up to utility AC voltage. With certain
conversion inefficiencies.

You can also use variac AC variable auto-transformers to "split" the AC
power so you can use it like a CVT continuously variable transmission
for electricity. Within limits you can adjust a paths power by setting
the AC voltage. Assuming you don't have switching power supplies.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: e2matrix on April 19, 2010, 11:15:21 PM
Hi magnetman,  Nice work.  I caught your more recent vids too I believe.  I just ordered some of the transistors and diodes from the Davro/Bedini circuit you sent.  My biggest holdup will probably be winding a coil.  What have you found as a good source of magnets? 
Cheers
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 20, 2010, 01:16:08 AM
Hi Tom it's me, Gary :)

I have been following in Tom's footsteps with this one, albeit a much rougher version.

Details :

Pickup coil is 600 turns (818 feet) of SWG #30 (0.254mm) magnet wire, resistance at 84.6 Ohms.

Magnet is Neodymium 20 dia x 20mm long with 6mm hole, approx. 6,100 Gauss.

Axel is 6mm carbon rod.

The drive coil/circuitry is Bedini w/o the charging battery component.

It doesn't need a Bedini circuit, a pulse generator would accomplish the same thing.

I am inputting 9VDC @ 0.07A.

I am rectifying the output, full-wave, and getting 36VDC.

The meter is reading no DC current !?

I put a filament bulb (12V, 0.08A, 0.96W) as a load and it lights but is flickery.

My meter leads are long, especially with extra clips attached, and they go up to 4 feet away.

Can anyone tell me why the DC current reading is zero ?


Gary.




Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on April 20, 2010, 01:38:39 AM
You might be right about all of that. I am currently constructing a minature full wave bridge rectifier.
I will dump all the AC output into it. Sure there will be some power loss but it then becomes very easy to compare input to output power as both are now DC.  Hi frequency AC is tricky to measure correctly.

Hi Tom,

Great job so far with your experiments.  What you have written is exactly correct.  Rectify it using one of the two types of diodes that Mark wrote of.  They are for high speed switching and should work just fine.  AC measuring against DC has fooled many a well meaning soul. 

I also wrote in your other thread, a means to DOUBLE your output, but have not heard back from you.  You may want to look at that down the road.

Wishing you accurate success,

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 20, 2010, 01:43:53 AM
DELETED , figured it, doh !
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 20, 2010, 06:32:26 AM
[A author=e2matrix link=topic=9076.msg238246#msg238246 date=1271711721]
Hi magnetman,  Nice work.  I caught your more recent vids too I believe.  I just ordered some of the transistors and diodes from the Davro/Bedini circuit you sent.  My biggest holdup will probably be winding a coil.  What have you found as a good source of magnets? 
Cheers
[/quote]

Here is the link where you canbuy a 1,1.5, or 2 inch diametric ring magnet

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RX84X8DIA

Tom
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on April 20, 2010, 06:58:12 AM
trying to break the laws again? should I say the laws of physics. it's a law!

oh that's right, rebels can break all the laws because they are not subject to them. you make me laugh so hard! obey the law! these laws can not be broken.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 20, 2010, 10:37:33 AM
Yes cutting, and the world is flat and the sun revolves around it ...
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Rapadura on April 20, 2010, 01:25:35 PM
Yes cutting, and the world is flat and the sun revolves around it ...

And a heavier than the air device can't fly (as they tought in the XIX Century)... Wow, Santos Sumont was really a rebel...

If E=MC², what happens to so called "conservation of energy"? Becomes conservation of "mass-energy"... Good trick...
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 20, 2010, 03:19:04 PM
Hi.

I put a new fuse in my analogue meter.

Input is 9VDC @ 0.075A.
Output is 33VDC @ 0.080A
 
When i measure DC mA, the magnet slows down a lot, is this because it's such low amperage that even measuring it is taking too much away ?


Gary.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Omnibus on April 20, 2010, 04:58:33 PM
And a heavier than the air device can't fly (as they tought in the XIX Century)... Wow, Santos Sumont was really a rebel...

If E=MC², what happens to so called "conservation of energy"? Becomes conservation of "mass-energy"... Good trick...

No, they didn't. This is a misnomer. Birds were heavier than air in those days too and they were seen to fly back then. That's a wrong analogy for the suppression of progress.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Low-Q on April 20, 2010, 05:12:52 PM
You might be right about all of that. I am currently constructing a minature full wave bridge rectifier.
I will dump all the AC output into it. Sure there will be some power loss but it then becomes very easy to compare input to output power as both are now DC.  Hi frequency AC is tricky to measure correctly.
It would be way much faster using a long conductor so you can measure the amps away from the magnet. You'll get the result right away. No rectifier is required (Unless I missed something with your rectifier plans).

Vidar
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: e2matrix on April 20, 2010, 06:04:39 PM
Hi.

I put a new fuse in my analogue meter.

Input is 9VDC @ 0.075A.
Output is 33VDC @ 0.080A
 
When i measure DC mA, the magnet slows down a lot, is this because it's such low amperage that even measuring it is taking too much away ?


Gary.

That would possibly depend on how close your meter was to the magnet also.  There might be enough metal or copper in it to effect the magnet speed.  And an analogue meter will put more load on a circuit than digital normally would.  But either way it sounds like you've got a winner.  Based on your numbers:
Input=   0.675 Watts
Output= 2.64 Watts
COP = 3.91    :o
 
That's assuming no errors in measurement.  I'd sure like to hear what Tom is getting also.  I do think this concept has good potential. 
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on April 20, 2010, 07:48:38 PM
You can’t just switch your meter to Current and measure it. You need to measure
current through a load resistance. But what value load resistor?

Measuring Power correctly;

What you want do is to measure the voltage across a load resistor using a DVM.
Stick the voltage meter reading number into an equation, then adjust the resistor
value until you get maximum Power. Or else use a variable resistor , then measure
the resistance setting after it has been set to maximize P.

Since P=E*I and E=I*R it makes P=E^2/R we want to adjust our load R so
that P (power) is maximal in the equation P=E^2/R. That means adjusting R
around until the calculated P value becomes maximum (not E maximum). We
then don’t need to measure I the current at all.

What one is doing here is matching the source impedance (AC resistance) of
the coil to the load resistance of the resistor. Maximum power is transferred
between the generator and the load when the internal impedance of the generator
matches the impedance of the load. We want to know what the max calculated
P is in milliwatts.

---

I’ve noticed that even in cheapo DVM’s the resistance of the meter in
measuring current can often affect the load. This wouldn’t happen but
the meter cannot display enough leading zeroes (have enough accuracy)
when displaying small currents. So they boost up the resistance so that
the meter gets more voltage to work with…But that insertion resistance
then affects the circuit.

---

Self Running;

What one wants to do now, is down convert your 33 volts or whatever you get
under load that produces max Power. Down convert it to 12 voltsDC across a big
cap then use one of those automobile lighter inverters to step it to 110/220Volts AC.
Then use a wall wart power supply to supply input to your motor…If you do this
carefully and get this right the system should self run. If your auto inverter has an
conversion efficiency of 30% then you need a system COP gain of 3.0 to offset it.
Your particular inverter’s efficiency may vary. If you start the system to run on
utility power then switch it to internal the capacitor will either charge up - overunity
or discharge for long enough time where you can see what is going on.


:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 21, 2010, 02:52:03 AM
That's really helpful, i know little enough about electronics let alone proper testing methodology.

Toms new video is up now showing 40 LED's being lit (brightly) :

                       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Cpv4Lxdyw&feature=player_embedded

He's outputting AC until his rectifier components arrive.

Total watts used to light the LED's is 24 and he's only inputting 4.86 ...

My setup can't compare at the moment because my axel is high-friction until my bearings arrive.

I'm off to test with load resistors ;+}


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Rapadura on April 21, 2010, 03:21:55 AM
This last video is nice!

What he is using as DC input source? D cell battery?

I hope Tom use a rectifier soon, and see what DC output he can get. Let's see how many LEDs he can lite continuously with DC output after the rectifier.

 Better... Let's see if the DC output after the rectifier can power an exactly equal generator, and the DC output of this second generator can power the first one. Self running is so cool!
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Omnibus on April 21, 2010, 08:33:05 AM
@mscoffman,

Quote
Accurately measuring the power of an AC signal with instrumentation is almost the definition of an impossibility. I don't care who or what is doing it
- I don't trust it.

That's the crux of the matter. If you measure momentary currents and voltages with a good DSO, multiply them and integrate the product over time you'll get very accurate energy values. The slope of that integrated curve is the power. This is how Steorn are doing their power measurements and so far that's the best I've seen in this respect. The signal should be studied as is, avoiding conversions, rectification and so on which are accompanied by inevitable losses distorting the power measurements.

Therefore, on the contrary, I would not trust power measurements of an AC signal with a DVM's.

Of course, once the procedure for correct power measurements is established one has to provide a load for maximum transfer of power from the source, as you explained.

Also, the input power causing the rotor to spin (or in a transformer whatever there is in the secondary coil) should be calculated by subtracting  the Ohmic losses R*I^2 from the momentary I*V. Therefore, for an accurate measurement of the input power (effective input power) it is very important to measure momentary R accurately on the fly, that is, while the device is working, together with measuring momentary I and V. Would be interesting to hear suggestions as to how this can be done.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 21, 2010, 01:56:18 PM
Reading this document :

http://davidsonsales.com/docs_pdf/CoilPitch.pdf

Makes me wonder about the coil-pitch of this setup ...

The angle of the coil sides to the center of the rotor is easily measured, but what about the pole-to-pole angle ?

Is it 180 degrees ?

This document goes into more detail about why this matters :

http://www.bmcoi.com/CatLit/Power/TECHNICAL%20PAPERS/GEN.%20WINDING%20PITCH%20-%20LEKX3115.PDF


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 21, 2010, 03:23:50 PM
OK, hope i'm doing this correctly.

Input : 12.56VDC @ 0.130A

Output (rectified) : 33.6VDC @ 0.125A

The output is going through a 10k pot, turned all the way up, in series with the analogue meter.

If i've done this correctly then :

Input : 1.6328W

Output : 4.2W

COP = 2.57

It's RPM is 12,000 !

I've been reading up on generator windings and have some ideas, will post when formulated and tested properly.


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: e2matrix on April 21, 2010, 03:30:59 PM
Tom,  I'm no expert here and I'm sure mscoffman knows more than me but it seems if you are going to try for a self runner you'll lose a lot of efficiency with the way he is suggesting.  So I'll suggest a different way and if others see a flaw with my suggestion that's fine as I said I know mscoffman and others here are way more up to speed on this than I am. 
  I'd suggest simply stepping down the voltage from your output with a small transformer that has about 4:1 ratio and then rectifying the output and feeding that to the input - maybe a filter cap on the rectified output too?  At least to me it sounds like it would be a lot less losses that way. 
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Rapadura on April 21, 2010, 03:58:11 PM
Input : 1.6328W

Output : 4.2W

COP = 2.57

Wow! I love COP greater than 2! Because it's not over-unity, it's over-double!

If a generator can really put out COP > 2 then this generator can power itself (self-running), and, at the same time, can power another generator that is exactly equal the first one. And this second generator will also put out COP > 2, then this second generator can power TWO more generators exactly equal the first two. And this two new generators can power FOUR more generators equal the previous four.

Then you will have:

INPUT = Nothing. Zero. Just a self-running generator.

OUTPUT = Four generators exactly equal the first self-running generator.

That's why I have dreams with "over-double" every night! Over-double rulez!
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 21, 2010, 04:09:56 PM
Tom,  I'm no expert here and I'm sure mscoffman knows more than me but it seems if you are going to try for a self runner you'll lose a lot of efficiency with the way he is suggesting.  So I'll suggest a different way and if others see a flaw with my suggestion that's fine as I said I know mscoffman and others here are way more up to speed on this than I am. 
  I'd suggest simply stepping down the voltage from your output with a small transformer that has about 4:1 ratio and then rectifying the output and feeding that to the input - maybe a filter cap on the rectified output too?  At least to me it sounds like it would be a lot less losses that way.

Funny, i just tried that.

I made a small coil to step down the voltage and see what current increase i could get.

The voltage went  w a y  down to around 6V and the current doubled to 250mA but the magnet slowed right down.

Obviously it's not a proper transformer because there's no physically connected ferrite-core ...
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on April 21, 2010, 05:44:32 PM
The thing about the adjustable load resistor is...in all probability
the behavior of the motor is going to change as you load it down
because you apply mag braking force to it, which is what happens
when work is extracted...So adjusting to maximize the Power will
affect the operation of the device and hence feedback to the input
power required. Now, that feedback may require more input power
(which it would in a typical motor), or it might require less -
because slowing the rotor will force the drive "on" periods apart.

So once you have the design working you have to shift your goals
to maximum power output of a calculated P rather than your inital
design goals to maxize rotor RPM.

You really want to measure both Power(s) at the exactly the same
time. A DVM won't load the voltage (with many megohms meter input
impedence, but the mechanical voltmeter will) And unfortunately the
current ranges will not have nearly the theoretical zero ohms insertion
loss that it should. But generally the resistance of the load resistor
won't change with use...So that is one thing that remains constant.

By finding the matching impedance you find out something useful about
how to design the load utilization circuit. Listen, a diode bridge *will*
wring out most usable power out of even spiked AC signals but
impedance matching (making your voltage converter the same impedance)
as the maximum power point load) is somewhat tricky. Do it wrong and you
risk getting unnecessary ineffciency in the power loop. The ability to build
a pulse transformer built like the JT torroid would be a good capability to
have because a good transformer automatically keeps the E and I terms
of the P=E*I in the same ratio. So you want to step the pulse AC signal
down and then rectify it. Filter it with a big cap. The 12VDC inverter
110/220V may be inefficient but it will help stablize your feedback loop.
It's input power will very much be a function of it's output demand. A
motor COP 2.0 is usable if the inverter has a efficiency of 50% - a nice
experimental capability to have, and hold on to.

BTW in the real Overunity device the power is going to build up, then you
will need a way of disposing of it properly...Also a nice problem to have.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 21, 2010, 06:30:04 PM
Nice one Mark :)

One thing that i feel the need to understand, why can my analogue meter read the mA but my digi can't ?

My digi even goes down to micro-amps, unlike the analogue, but still registers nothing ...


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on April 21, 2010, 07:01:33 PM
Nice one Mark :)

One thing that i feel the need to understand, why can my analogue meter read the mA but my digi can't ?

My digi even goes down to micro-amps, unlike the analogue, but still registers nothing ...


Gary.

You say you have replaced the fuse, That fuse may have more resistance
than the original, the pass resister inside the meter could be burnt,
changing it's resistance or something inside the meter's IC could be damaged.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 21, 2010, 07:23:21 PM
Doh !

I didn't have the lead pushed right in when i switched sockets :(


S O R R Y !
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on April 22, 2010, 01:03:58 AM
OK, hope i'm doing this correctly.

Input : 12.56VDC @ 0.130A

Output (rectified) : 33.6VDC @ 0.125A

The output is going through a 10k pot, turned all the way up, in series with the analogue meter.

If i've done this correctly then :

Input : 1.6328W

Output : 4.2W

COP = 2.57

It's RPM is 12,000 !

I've been reading up on generator windings and have some ideas, will post when formulated and tested properly.


Gary.

Easy Deepcut,

Take a deep breath.  Again, you are comparing AC to DC.  This does not work for attempting to measure OU.  I have seen so many fooled by this over the years, I have lost count.  Duty cycle, etc.  Did you watch Tom's video?  Did you notice the LED's blinking?  That means the power is not "on" all of the time. 

Solution:  You MUST rectify the AC to DC using High speed switching diodes!  Place a resistor as a load at the out put, and THEN measure amps and volts, using ONLY an analog meter, that will not be fooled by a rotating magnetic field.

I say this to help you.  Also, consider what I wrote about the other coil at 90 degrees.  You guys are wasting space on both side (if vertical) for no reason.

Keep on...  ;)

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 22, 2010, 01:15:03 AM
Hi Bruce.

I'm not comparing AC to DC, i am rectifying - see 2nd and 3rd lines of my previous post.

*EDIT* But i know what you mean about duty-cycle, i saw that when i put a load on mine. *EDIT*

My bearings arrived this afternoon so am remounting the whole thing tomorrow, along with the extra coil :)

Reading these was interesting :

http://davidsonsales.com/docs_pdf/CoilPitch.pdf

http://www.bmcoi.com/CatLit/Power/TECHNICAL%20PAPERS/GEN.%20WINDING%20PITCH%20-%20LEKX3115.PDF


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: FatBird on April 22, 2010, 01:33:42 AM
Gary, Thank you for sharing those 2 articles.  They are EXTREMELY interesting.


http://davidsonsales.com/docs_pdf/CoilPitch.pdf

http://www.bmcoi.com/CatLit/Power/TECHNICAL%20PAPERS/GEN.%20WINDING%20PITCH%20-%20LEKX3115.PDF

.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 22, 2010, 01:51:46 AM
Don't thank me thank google ;+}

They are interesting aren't they ?

Especially in relation to a single-magnet rotor ...


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on April 22, 2010, 02:58:00 AM
Hi Bruce.

I'm not comparing AC to DC, i am rectifying - see 2nd and 3rd lines of my previous post.

*EDIT* But i know what you mean about duty-cycle, i saw that when i put a load on mine. *EDIT*

My bearings arrived this afternoon so am remounting the whole thing tomorrow, along with the extra coil :)

Reading these was interesting :

http://davidsonsales.com/docs_pdf/CoilPitch.pdf

http://www.bmcoi.com/CatLit/Power/TECHNICAL%20PAPERS/GEN.%20WINDING%20PITCH%20-%20LEKX3115.PDF


Gary.

Hi Gary,

I went back and looked and still can not find the post where you state that you rectify the output.

Also, the .125 ma, was that with the analog meter or DVM?  Are you sure it was not set to micro amps, if an analog meter? 

Thanks and keep on pluggin' away, it is how we learn,

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 22, 2010, 12:48:21 PM
Hi Bruce,

The post where i mention rectification is on here :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9076.msg238384#msg238384

Both measurements taking using the analogue meter because i (stupidly) hadn't pushed the lead into my digi one correctly and thought that it couldn't read mA ...

And, yes, i know the difference between mili/micro/pico/nano ... ;+}

*EDIT Anyway, today i'm setting it up more properly because now i have my bearings, so all easurements will be taken again with the new setup, including the additional winding. *EDIT*


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on April 22, 2010, 02:22:19 PM
Hi Bruce,

The post where i mention rectification is on here :

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9076.msg238384#msg238384

Both measurements taking using the analogue meter because i (stupidly) hadn't pushed the lead into my digi one correctly and thought that it couldn't read mA ...

And, yes, i know the difference between mili/micro/pico/nano ... ;+}

*EDIT Anyway, today i'm setting it up more properly because now i have my bearings, so all easurements will be taken again with the new setup, including the additional winding. *EDIT*


Gary.

Hi Gary,

Okay, I am feeling a little more optimistic.  The additional winding will for sure help, and hope that you use stranded pickup wire for it.

Did you build your own rectifier, or use a radio shack or equiv one?  The reason that I ask, is that the ready bought rectifiers do not switch very fast, and you may be better off making your own out of some inexpensive germaniums. 

What kind of non magnetic bearings did you get?

Thanks!

Cheers,

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 22, 2010, 05:45:08 PM
Hi Bruce,

I used this full-wave rectifier, the black square one with four legs in the picture :

http://maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=19088

My pickup coil is 0.28mm magnet wire, not stranded.

No bearings in the old setup we are discussin, axle mounted through holes in PV drainpipe so there is friction unfortunately.

But i now have these bearings :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002SRSUUU/ref=oss_product

They are actually open bearings unlike the picture, so i can lubricate them easily.

They are meant to be outside diameter 19mm, but i made a hole with my 19mm router bit and there is about 0.25mm of space :(

So i have mounted them in 19mm plastic waste pipe.

Bearings mounted on 6mm carbon-rod shaft.

The work isn't master craftmanship since i know as much about DIY as i do about electronics !

I will also order this PWM kit when it is back in stock, which can run on 9V batteries :

http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/47000-dc-pulse-width-k8004-velleman-kit.html

So stranded wire is more effective for induction ?

What gauge should the strands be etc ... ?

Here is a picture of the setup so far :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GEM4.JPG

Thanks,

Gary
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on April 22, 2010, 06:00:32 PM

There's still something wrong with the math. Do you have the 10K pot set to
10K ohm's or 0K ohms? And are you measuring the voltage and current at the same
time? E=I*R says that 33.6 volts at .125amps (not ma) is only about 268ohms
load. So these numbers are too far off for a 10Kohm load.  Note .125amps = 125.ma
.125ma = .00125amps. Your motor's numbers are really very good if true and
E and I are measured simultaneously.

If you could measure the voltage with DVM and current with the mechanical
meter simultaneously through a fixed 10Kohm load resister cc: brown black orange
and then again through a 4.7Kohm resister cc: yellow violet red. It might be helpful.
10K seems much too high to be the effective impedance of the output coils.
The calculated P should go *up* with the 4.7K ohms resister in my opinion.
Note if the rotor RPM changes with more load.

The other thing you could try if you have any kind of a toroid core handy is
wind a pulse transformer with 33 turns on the primary and 13 turns on the
secondary and see if you can get the 33.6 Vac pulses stepped down to
approximately 12.5 Vac then rectify it.  Current through the right resister
should then be .25amps Maybe with 26gauge wire. Use plastic insulated
hookup wire if you don't have lacquer coated wire. One may need a series resister
to keep the primary from shorting the output coils.  This would make your
output voltage close to your motors input voltage. hint,hint.  :)

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on April 22, 2010, 06:24:14 PM
Hi Bruce,

I used this full-wave rectifier, the black square one with four legs in the picture :

http://maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=19088

My pickup coil is 0.28mm magnet wire, not stranded.

No bearings in the old setup we are discussin, axle mounted through holes in PV drainpipe so there is friction unfortunately.

But i now have these bearings :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002SRSUUU/ref=oss_product

They are actually open bearings unlike the picture, so i can lubricate them easily.

They are meant to be outside diameter 19mm, but i made a hole with my 19mm router bit and there is about 0.25mm of space :(

So i have mounted them in 19mm plastic waste pipe.

Bearings mounted on 6mm carbon-rod shaft.

The work isn't master craftmanship since i know as much about DIY as i do about electronics !

I will also order this PWM kit when it is back in stock, which can run on 9V batteries :

http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/47000-dc-pulse-width-k8004-velleman-kit.html

So stranded wire is more effective for induction ?

What gauge should the strands be etc ... ?

Here is a picture of the setup so far :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GEM4.JPG

Thanks,

Gary

@Deepcut

#1
The diode bridge should be good to about 200Khz. But the main problem with pure
silicon diodes is the 0.6 Voltage pedastel or 1.2Volts for a diode bridge. In effect
that voltage is lost. It is not ineffciency because no current flows then. To
get around that build your bridge from Schottky or germainium diodes.

#2
Stranded wire is done for mechanical flexibility only and does not have any
electrical effects. Often they talk about Litz wire where strands are insulated from
each other so they are in parallel and this does have an effect. RF currents travel
in the surface of wires so Litz wire gives more surfaces for RF to travel in.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 22, 2010, 07:56:17 PM
...

If you could measure the voltage with DVM and current with the mechanical
meter simultaneously through a fixed 10Kohm load resister cc: brown black orange
and then again through a 4.7Kohm resister cc: yellow violet red. It might be helpful.
10K seems much too high to be the effective impedance of the output coils.
The calculated P should go *up* with the 4.7K ohms resister in my opinion.
Note if the rotor RPM changes with more load.

...

:S:MarkSCoffman

Thanks Mark.

I have the magnet assembly mounted, finally.

Since it is now on bearings i am going to do all tests again, beginning with simultaneous voltage/current measurement as you specified.

But first i have to wind a new coil (and eat some food !) so i should have the results of that first test by 9pm UK time (2 hours after this post).

Picture of magnet assembly is here :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/GEM4_2.JPG


Gary.



Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 22, 2010, 10:23:02 PM
Had to scrap that one.

My crappy assembly was slowing bearings down because of the frame design ... ::SIGH::

No-one told me i'd have to learn woodwork, metalwork and mechanical engineering as well as electronics !!!  ;+}

Am mounting old coil on new, simple frame.

Will post soon as.


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 22, 2010, 11:37:25 PM
Un-bloody-believable !

The bearings are FOUR TIMES SLOWER than having it rotate against the insides of a PVC pipe-section ...

That just amazes me.

I've googled a bit and the max RPM i could find of a ball-race bearing was 10,000.

Should have done my research first ... assume makes an ASS out of U and ME ;+}

I am now going to shut my mouth and try and get as close as possible to Tom's setup.

I'm having trouble finding the wire-spool he uses for pickup here in the UK, he called it 'cross-connect' wire.

Any UK people know what the equivalent is over here ?


Thanks,

Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 23, 2010, 01:46:17 AM
I'm load-testing voltage only at the moment because i want to be sure i get it right.

In this picture the battery represents the coil output (but my coil output is rectified).

Are the connections in the right place ?

Because when i turn the pot up (clockwise) the voltage goes down but the magnet is unaffected.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Rapadura on April 23, 2010, 02:20:03 AM
DeepCut: make a video and put on YouTube!

People here love videos! It will increase the interest about your research!
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 23, 2010, 02:49:46 AM
Rap,

please help me with this load-testing i can't get it to work :(
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Rapadura on April 23, 2010, 03:50:12 AM
I can't! Unfortunately, my knowledge of electronics stopped at the Radio Shack "30-in-one electronics lab" I had when I was 12 years old! I know almost nothing about electronics!
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on April 23, 2010, 04:14:17 AM
Hi Gary,

Simply use a resistor and place one lead on one end and one lead on the other.  place the volt meter lead on both ends and see what the voltage is.  Post it here and we can do the math, or google ohms law calculator and input volts and input resistance of your resistor and it will calculate your amperage.

Or, use a small bulb, place your analog meter in line with the bulb and see what it reads for amps.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Airstriker on April 23, 2010, 02:29:07 PM
Had to scrap that one.

My crappy assembly was slowing A down because of the frame design ... ::SIGH::

No-one told me i'd have to learn woodwork, metalwork and mechanical engineering as well as electronics !!!  ;+}

Am mounting old coil on new, simple frame.

Will post soon as.

Gary.

Yeah I'm experiencing the same right now with my current setup ;) Still learning but a few things you might need:

1. Don't use ordinary metal bearings - in your setup the magnet is interfering with them - the bearing's balls are attracted to the bearing's rings and so the friction is quite big - much bigger than in your first setup when using slide "bearings".
2. Use plastic bearings with glass or ceramic balls (or whole ceramic bearings if you're not a poor person ;) . I've found quite cheap ones here: http://www.smbbearings.com/Framesets/Plastic_Frame.htm
Just write them an email and they will tell you the price. Can pay via paypal. I will be receiving them in a few days so I will be able to say something more about these then.
However, remember that their RPM limit is about 2500.
3. The bearings must be mounted in a special way. Just placing them tight in the hole doesn't work well. Much better way is to drill a bit bigger hole than bearing's outer diameter and simply glue the bearing inside. If you do this this way the balls will be free to move inside the bearings and will not produce additional friction.
4. Use non magnetic shafts - you already do so so that's ok.

All of the above has been tried in the lab so you can trust me ;)
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 23, 2010, 04:56:33 PM
Thanks Airstriker, good advice.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) this single-magnet rotor does 12,000 RPM so i can't use ceramic bearings :(

@Mark and Bruce i got a couple of 10k resistors today, couldnt get a 4.7k, they had them but seems like someone isn't filing resistors away properly ;+}

Am making new assembly now then will report back on load test.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 23, 2010, 06:11:37 PM
Hi Guys,
I am going to put all of the links in this thread as I have them scattered all over the place.  I am waiting on my hyperfast diodes and a 450 volt cap to make my DC rectifier.

 This whole idea might have some overunity merit but I dont  have a scope or expensive equipment to see if it pans out.  Hi frequency AC "CURRENT" is difficult to measure as you are aware.  I hope someone out there gives it a try using better equipment than I have.   If they do I hope they post their results.  Note the 12 Volt automobile L4 Relay in the Bedini/Davro circuit. That relay keeps the circuit current in the milliamp range. I deliberately use 6 DC volts/ milliamps LOW POWER to spin the magnet. The spinning magnet then delivers its own (hopefully HIGHER) AC power which is harvested by the coil around it. Now if the spinning magnet does deliver more power then what it takes to spin it we have overunity.

Remember it takes a blasting cap to trigger a stick of dynamite.  No laws of physics are broken.

I like your idea about double windings Bruce but unless the coils can be seperated the magnet inside one coil could not be accessed or adjusted with the coils wound over each other.
  My pickup coil is 4 inches in diameter, 2 5/8 inch center hole, 2 3/8 inches tall.  3,200 feet of #30 AWG magnet wire wrapped around it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Cpv4Lxdyw&feature=player_embedded



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj388d43Ufo&feature=channel

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RX84X8DIA

Tom


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on April 23, 2010, 08:15:40 PM
Thanks Airstriker, good advice.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) this single-magnet rotor does 12,000 RPM so i can't use ceramic bearings :(

@Mark and Bruce i got a couple of 10k resistors today, couldnt get a 4.7k, they had them but seems like someone isn't filing resistors away properly ;+}

Am making new assembly now then will report back on load test.


Gary.

@DeepCut;

OK...you can create 5K by putting two 10K resistors in parallel. I wanted 5K
anyway but they make 4.7K and 5.1K. (yes there is a reason)

Use ceramic bearings...RPM's will only be a problem at between 20K and 30K RPM
Don't forget they rate the bearings for things like mechanical shock loading
which are probably not occurring in this application. They are not like a capacitors
WVDC ratings...they have some margins you can operate beyond. Cermanic bearings
are better for high RPM's because the rollers have less mass for centrifugal force
to operate against.

Often any factory supplied lubrication needs to be cleaned out of the bearing
and you should apply some Teflon based fluid lubricant mixed with some
3-in-1 oil. Very small viscosity lubricant. Often they apply grease at the factory
which is much too viscous for this application. Don't use too much oil or you can
imagine what happens. This oil also helps the bearing damp out vibrations too.

---

Your diagram is very nice looking, but the connections are not correct! You
want to connect only one side of the potentiometer to the minus like you
have it but the positive wire should be disconnected and put where the meter
red positive lead is. That is, the pot's variable wiper center connection. Leave
one far connections to the pot unconnected. They way you show it the pot is
a voltage divider with only the meter as the only load. Don't forget that in
one direction a pot's R becomes =0ohms!

Once you get the connections correct. You know if you want to measure the
"current" you have to break the circuit and insert the meter probes. So you would
remove the positive wire connection to the potentiometer and attach the meter
black lead to the pot. The positive wire would go to the red meter probe and the
meter dial setting goes to dc A(amps) or ma.

Note that Ohms law really does work so you should be able to measure resistance
with your DVM resistance scale (highly accurate), voltage with your DVM voltmeter
scale (highly accurate), and current with the current scale. Then apply them to
Ohms law E=I*R and see how accurate they are versus the calculations in total.
Make sure you use the correct zeroes and decimal point.

---

22Gauge and 24Gauge solid plastic insulated wire is "household utility wiring" wire.
26Gauge and 28Gauge solid plastic insulated wire is circuit "hookup" wire.
30Gauge AWG solid plastic is "wire wrap" wire.
The same Guages are available as "Bare" wire for running ground lines
and coating insulated wire for coil winding.

Take your time, Don't feel we are putting pressure on you to finish any experiment.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 23, 2010, 09:59:23 PM
Thanks a lot Mark.

That's the kind of specific info i needed, me being electronically illiterate and all ;+}

I will try ceramic bearings in the future.

The diagram is from allaboutcircuits.com  ;)

And no worries about pressure - i'm obsessed, all the pressure is coming from me i'm just frustrated at my lack of knowledge. I've worked in IT for 20 years and computers are easy compared to all this.

But i'm loving it. I hope we don't discover free energy because then i'd have nothing to do in my spare time ;+}


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on April 24, 2010, 01:29:07 AM
Hi Guys,
I am going to put all of the links in this thread as I have them scattered all over the place.  I am waiting on my hyperfast diodes and a 450 volt cap to make my DC rectifier.

 This whole idea might have some overunity merit but I dont  have a scope or expensive equipment to see if it pans out.  Hi frequency AC "CURRENT" is difficult to measure as you are aware.  I hope someone out there gives it a try using better equipment than I have.   If they do I hope they post their results.  Note the 12 Volt automobile L4 Relay in the Bedini/Davro circuit. That relay keeps the circuit current in the milliamp range. I deliberately use 6 DC volts/ milliamps LOW POWER to spin the magnet. The spinning magnet then delivers its own (hopefully HIGHER) AC power which is harvested by the coil around it. Now if the spinning magnet does deliver more power then what it takes to spin it we have overunity.

Remember it takes a blasting cap to trigger a stick of dynamite.  No laws of physics are broken.

I like your idea about double windings Bruce but unless the coils can be seperated the magnet inside one coil could not be accessed or adjusted with the coils wound over each other.
  My pickup coil is 4 inches in diameter, 2 5/8 inch center hole, 2 3/8 inches tall.  3,200 feet of #30 AWG magnet wire wrapped around it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Cpv4Lxdyw&feature=player_embedded



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj388d43Ufo&feature=channel

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RX84X8DIA

Tom

Hi Tom,

You can easily add the second coil to where the coils can be seperated!  Here is an idea... Take and measure the length diameter you need, to "slip" at 90 degrees over your existing pu coil..  Measure out some Card Stock to the width and length you need to make your desired bobbin.  Cut out several, identical, and glue one on top of another, to get the stiffness you desire for coil form.  Next, simply spray with some good spray adhesive, and then wind your magnet wire (or stranded wire as I prefer in this case) around the form.  At the end of the first row, use wax to start next row, spray again an wind second layer.  Continue this for as many layers as you want.  Slip coil on at 90 degrees and you are good to go!  If it only puts out 1/2 as much power as your other coil, that is okay, you are still up in power output by 50% !!!   ;)

Cheers,

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Rapadura on April 24, 2010, 02:07:52 AM
But i'm loving it. I hope we don't discover free energy because then i'd have nothing to do in my spare time ;+}


Gary.

I don't know why, but I feel that you are very close to dicover something very very impressive... And if you do it, please share with us. If you see a selfrunning overunity (or "overdouble")  device spinning right before your eyes without any external energy source, please don't have a heart attack because of the emotion: make a video of it and put on YouTube!
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 24, 2010, 02:27:31 AM
[A author=Bruce_TPU link=topic=9076.msg238773#msg238773 date=1272065347]
Hi Tom,

You can easily add the second coil to where the coils can be seperated!  Here is an idea... Take and measure the length diameter you need, to "slip" at 90 degrees over your existing pu coil..  Measure out some Card Stock to the width and length you need to make your desired bobbin.  Cut out several, identical, and glue one on top of another, to get the stiffness you desire for coil form.  Next, simply spray with some good spray adhesive, and then wind your magnet wire (or stranded wire as I prefer in this case) around the form.  At the end of the first row, use wax to start next row, spray again an wind second layer.  Continue this for as many layers as you want.  Slip coil on at 90 degrees and you are good to go!  If it only puts out 1/2 as much power as your other coil, that is okay, you are still up in power output by 50% !!!   ;)

Cheers,

Bruce
[/quote]

Thanks Bruce,

I will do that because I already have a extra coil with wire on it and I can use the wire on it to do the wrap around like you stated. Tom
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 24, 2010, 02:31:52 AM
Liking that idea Bruce, i'm sick of hand-winding 800 turns around plastic piping !

OK, test results.

System components :

Drive coil/circuit: a la Bedini, no relay. Drive component unimportant since could be pulse generator.
Induction Coil : 0.25mm @ 61.1 ohms. No second coil at this time.
Magnet : Neo @ 6,100 gauss.
Full wave bridge rectifier, shop-bought, maximum reverse-current is 10A per diode.
Potentiometer : 10k linear, 3 terminal.

Starting condition :

Input : 12.54VDC @ 0.114A = 1.42956W
Output (rectified) : 40.3VDC @ 0.0085A = 0.34255W
Pot resistance : 0 ohms

Peak performance :

Input : 12.54VDC @ 0.144A = 1.80576W
Output (rectified) : 23.0VDC @ 0.020A = 0.46W
Pot resistance : 7.65 ohms

Bear in mind that Tom has much more wire on his induction coil than i do, although i suppose there is a limit to the length of the induction wire before a critical threshold is reached.

So we should expect better results with Tom's setup.


Gary.










Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on April 24, 2010, 03:04:56 AM
Liking that idea Bruce, i'm sick of hand-winding 800 turns around plastic piping !

OK, test results.

System components :

Drive coil/circuit: a la Bedini, no relay. Drive component unimportant since could be pulse generator.
Induction Coil : 0.25mm @ 61.1 ohms. No second coil at this time.
Magnet : Neo @ 6,100 gauss.
Full wave bridge rectifier, shop-bought, maximum reverse-current is 10A per diode.
Potentiometer : 10k linear, 3 terminal.

Starting condition :

Input : 12.54VDC @ 0.114A = 1.42956W
Output (rectified) : 40.3VDC @ 0.0085A = 0.34255W
Pot resistance : 0 ohms

Peak performance :

Input : 12.54VDC @ 0.144A = 1.80576W
Output (rectified) : 23.0VDC @ 0.020A = 0.46W
Pot resistance : 7.65 ohms

Bear in mind that Tom has much more wire on his induction coil than i do, although i suppose there is a limit to the length of the induction wire before a critical threshold is reached.

So we should expect better results with Tom's setup.


Gary.










Gary.

Good Job Gary,

Don't be discouraged, just keep on adding and refining!  But the main thing is that your measurments are accurate!  You are having fun and learning alot..., try a second coil and figure out ways to lessen your input power.

Cheers,

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 24, 2010, 03:07:07 AM
Cheers Bruce mate :)

Ideas for improvement :


Increase magnetic flux.

Ceramic bearings to reduce axle friction.

Pulse generator instead of bedini circuit, would cut input power costs down.

Increase number of windings in induction coil. *EDIT* and add a second coil ! *EDIT*

Change material of induction coil, silver-coated ?


Gary.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Rapadura on April 24, 2010, 03:51:50 AM
Keep on keeping on Garry!

Maybe you need to reduce the input power someway. You used 12.5 volts and 114 miliamps, Tom just used 6.1 volts and 81 milliamps in his last video.

And the magnetic flux... Couldn't you get a more powerful magnet, with stronger magnetic field?

Don't stop now!
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 24, 2010, 03:58:36 AM
Interesting :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_motor

I'd never heard of those before.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 24, 2010, 04:00:24 AM
Yes Raps !

Tom has 3,200 feet of wire and less input, like you say, so i can't wait until he builds his rectifier.

I want it ALL and i want it NOW ;+}


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Rapadura on April 24, 2010, 04:17:07 AM
3,200 feet?? Wow!!

I'm a complete moron about electronics... What are the factors that determine the amount of amps of the output of a generator? I read somewhere that the thicker the wire the more amps the wire will produce... Is just it?
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 24, 2010, 12:42:51 PM
Generators are easy. Moving copper wire through a magnetic field creates electricity, i find that amazing all by itself.

http://www.hobbyprojects.com/general_theory/generator_principle.html
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 24, 2010, 09:00:51 PM
Noob question time again from me ...

So, Ohm's law, in relation to the function of a resistor, states :

V=IR.

What i don't understand is, in the modified bedini circuit i'm using to drive this motor, when i turn the 1K pot that's used to find the 'sweet spot', the current draw goes down, but the motor speed goes up ?

What blindingly obvious thing am i missing this time ?

Cheers Clever Fellas ;+}


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on April 24, 2010, 09:49:56 PM
Noob question time again from me ...

So, Ohm's law, in relation to the function of a resistor, states :

V=IR.

What i don't understand is, in the modified bedini circuit i'm using to drive this motor, when i turn the 1K pot that's used to find the 'sweet spot', the current draw goes down, but the motor speed goes up ?

What blindingly obvious thing am i missing this time ?

Cheers Clever Fellas ;+}


Gary.

Ok..you are talking about adjusting R3 in the magnetman's
circuit diagram above.

The R3 adjustment is a trade-off because of the 2n3055
transistor.  In a bipolar transistor the amplifier is
a current gain device, so base current is necessary, but
it also is wasted power flowing to ground through the emitter.
Just like before, your drive coil makes the rotor go and
the sense coil which is an output coil makes the rotor
slow down the more current that flows, The rotor is doing
work on the transistor base. R3 trades off so just enough
current flows out to make the transistor work but not so much
as to make the rotor slow down too much. So it is a sensitivity
adjustment. It is necessary because of the differing transistor
characteristics in the real world. See..Impedance matching
is the name of the game in the free energy field. You want
the energy to come out to you, not be converted to heat
internally by inefficient couplings ect.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on April 25, 2010, 12:35:26 AM
Ah, thanx Mark, i was thinking of it completely the wrong way round ...

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 25, 2010, 06:09:17 AM
Hi All,

I just bought a "2 inch" diameter/1/2 inch thick Diametric magnet that will fit inside my flux coil setup easily.  I hope to have it within a week. It has a gauss rating over 13,200 !!

If this bad boy does not produce some type of overunity results I will throw in the towel.  I already have the plastic side plates with carbon fiber axles made to bond to the magnet.  It is a DISK Diametric magnet - not a ring with a hole through the center.  Will post results.

Tom
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Rapadura on April 25, 2010, 02:50:31 PM
@magnetman12003: Are you going to use a rectifier to have DC output in this experiment?
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 25, 2010, 05:59:01 PM
Quote from: Rapadura link=topic=9076.msg238934#msg238934 A=1272199831
@magnetman12003: Are you going to use a rectifier to have DC output in this experiment?

I will figure out both AC and rectified DC Power.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 06, 2010, 01:00:53 AM
I tidied up the circuit by improving the contacts and mounting in a project box, my first one it's great fun !

Also changed height of coil, it wasn't dead-centre vertically before.

Also using 100k resistor rather than pot as a load.


System components :

Drive circuit: Bedini, no JonnyDavro relay. Using 10k, 3-contact linear pot.
Drive coil : Bifilar, single coil.
               Trigger wire : 0.25mm.
               Induction wire : 0.28mm.
Magnet : Neo @ 6,100 gauss.
Full wave bridge rectifier, shop-bought, maximum reverse-current is 10A per diode.

Load resistor : 100k

Resistance of Bedini pot : ~1200

Peak performance result :

Input : 9.43 VDC @ 0.075 A = 0.70725 W
Output (rectified) : 41.5 VDC @ 0.035 A = 1.4525 W

Apparent COP = 2.053729232944503 ...

I ran the test 10 times and all results were similar, these are average figures.

*EDIT* What's an easy way of switching between the PSU and the rectified output ? Can i just connect the output to where the input goes to begin with or will that blow my house up lol ? *EDIT*



Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on May 06, 2010, 01:59:29 AM
I tidied up the circuit by improving the contacts and mounting in a project box, my first one it's great fun !

Also changed height of coil, it wasn't dead-centre vertically before.

Also using 100k resistor rather than pot as a load.


System components :

Drive circuit: Bedini, no JonnyDavro relay. Using 10k, 3-contact linear pot.
Drive coil : Bifilar, single coil.
               Trigger wire : 0.25mm.
               Induction wire : 0.28mm.
Magnet : Neo @ 6,100 gauss.
Full wave bridge rectifier, shop-bought, maximum reverse-current is 10A per diode.

Load resistor : 100k

Resistance of Bedini pot : ~1200

Peak performance result :

Input : 9.43 VDC @ 0.075 A = 0.70725 W
Output (rectified) : 41.5 VDC @ 0.035 A = 1.4525 W

Apparent COP = 2.053729232944503 ...

I ran the test 10 times and all results were similar, these are average figures.

*EDIT* What's an easy way of switching between the PSU and the rectified output ? Can i just connect the output to where the input goes to begin with or will that blow my house up lol ? *EDIT*

Try using a DPDT (double pole double throw) switch.  When you throw the dpdt, the psu turns off and the output becomes the input.  If it keeps running, time and film it.  Put the set up on a glass table, or or glass top of some type when filming.

Good Luck!

Cheers,

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 06, 2010, 02:02:07 AM
OK thx will do.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: e2matrix on May 06, 2010, 04:25:58 AM
Nice work there Deepcut.  If you want to really get a fast switchover on the input (from the output) I'd suggest a double pole double throw relay if you happen to have one around.  It would normally get it done faster than a switch (depending somewhat on the switch).  On the other hand if your motor tends to keep up the RPM fairly well for a couple seconds after being switched off then it may not make any difference using a relay over a regular DPDT switch.  Of course having a disconnect somewhere in the setup would be advised just in case it does starting going faster thus producing more power and looping into higher speed etc. to self destruct mode.   We can all hope you see that problem at least  ;D  so just have a way to unplug or turn off if you get lucky. 
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Rapadura on May 06, 2010, 04:42:59 AM
Rectified "overdouble" output is good news...

Try to feedback the output to the input and take a video of it!
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: infringer on May 06, 2010, 05:22:04 AM
indeed it does sound rather interesting...

Surely a video and full detailed information would be of the order weather it is a bad reading or not has yet to be determined but the conscious effort is there and you must continue to post your results.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 06, 2010, 12:12:18 PM
Getting this today :

http://maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=2355

If it doesn't kick in then it's time to wind that second coil and perhaps double the output for free.

Bruce,  would another coil, wound as you suggested, induct ? I thought it had to be at 90 deg to the movement of the changing magnetic field ?

@Infringer

Lots more detail eralier on in thread, MagnetMan has his videos posted on the concept.

I am following in his footsteps and ahve a much cruder setup, he will be doing his load-testing this week i think and should have better results but i will post video once it's self-powering, if it ever is lol ;+}


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 06, 2010, 12:26:50 PM
...
System components :
Drive circuit: Bedini, no JonnyDavro relay. Using 10k, 3-contact linear pot.
Drive coil : Bifilar, single coil.
               Trigger wire : 0.25mm.
               Induction wire : 0.28mm.
Magnet : Neo @ 6,100 gauss.
Full wave bridge rectifier, shop-bought, maximum reverse-current is 10A per diode.
Load resistor : 100k
Resistance of Bedini pot : ~1200
Peak performance result :
Input : 9.43 VDC @ 0.075 A = 0.70725 W
Output (rectified) : 41.5 VDC @ 0.035 A = 1.4525 W

Apparent COP = 2.053729232944503 ...

I ran the test 10 times and all results were similar, these are average figures.

*EDIT* What's an easy way of switching between the PSU and the rectified output ? Can i just connect the output to where the input goes to begin with or will that blow my house up lol ? *EDIT*

Hi DeepCut,

Here is what I would do:

I would not loop directly, FIRST I would load further down the DC voltage at the output of the diode bridge by using much less value resistors than your present 100 kOhm. Try using as low as anything between 100 Ohm to 1 kOhm and see that how this increased load affects the output DC voltage and the current consumption from the input (9.43 VDC @ 0.075 A).

IF and WHEN you have an output voltage across the diode bridge output higher than 10 Volt MEASURED when you use a load resistor of  say 100 Ohm, Than this means your load current is 10V/100 Ohm= 0.1 Amper, hence you have overunity PROVIDED your input conditions 9.43 VDC @ 0.075 A did not change.   

By the way I do not get when you use a 100 kOhm load resistor across the diode bridge output how can 0.035 Amper flow into it if the DC voltage is 41.5V?  Ohm's law should be valid and it calculates as 41.5/100000=0.000415 A   i.e. 0.415 mA and not 35 mA you measured.

Do you have a puffer capacitor across the diode bridge output? It is an electrolytic cap of any value between 470 uF to 2200 uF.  IF you did not have such capacitor when you did the measurements, please start it again with using one. 

Your input circuit as a load at 9.43 VDC @ 0.075 A corresponds to a R=9.43/0.075=125.7 Ohm resistor.  This may change to an even lower value when you use a 100-150 Ohm load resistor at your diode bridge output, you have to check that.  IT is good to use two meters: one ampermeter at the input in series with the 9.43V DC source and one voltage meter across the diode bridge output (where the puffer cap is also connected) , in parallel with the 100-150 Ohm load resistor.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 06, 2010, 05:34:26 PM
Gyula thanks.

There's a lot i don't know ...

I thought a larger resistor put more load on but it's the other way around is it ? I will try it with a 100 ohm after this post.

The bridge is shop-bought, i'm not sure what it contains but max reverse-current is 10 A per diode.

About the ampere difference, in the Bedini circuit i have a 10k linear pot to 'tune' the circuit with, perhaps this is the reason ? It's set to about 1200k at peak performance.

I have a 470u cap @ 16 V and will try that in addition to the 100 o resistor.

My digi meter just died, it was cheap ... so will only be able to use analogue tonight.

Will report back.


Gary.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 06, 2010, 06:03:02 PM
Hi Gary,

Yes the lower value resistor you use at the diode bridge output, the heavier loading effect it has, of course. 

The 470uF capacitor is ok but being only 16V voltage rated, please connect it across the bridge output when your 100 or 150 Ohm load resistor is ALREADY connected to the bridge,  because your 45V unloaded output voltage from the bridge will ruin it.  AND I suggest this ASSUMING that your output voltage will be reduced to 10V or so when you connect the 100-150 Ohm load resistor, ok? 

What is your output coil's DC resistance by the way? or wire gauge and its total length if you cannot measure its resistance.  Also if you do not mind saying the type of your diode bridge. The 10 Amper is probably not the reverse current data but its max forward current per diode.

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 06, 2010, 06:36:39 PM
Hi.

Induction coil is 0.25mm thick, resistance is 61.1 ohms.

This is the bridge, it's the black, square one with four legs :

http://maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=19088

I'm not used to using analogue multimeters to test resistance.

The next lowest resistors i have are reading nearly 10 with the meter set to x10, does that mean it's a hundred ohms or one ? !


Thanks,

Gary.


*EDIT* I found a colour chart. They are 100 ohms :)*EDIT*

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on May 06, 2010, 07:24:35 PM
Gyula thanks.

There's a lot i don't know ...

I thought a larger resistor put more load on but it's the other way around is it ? I will try it with a 100 ohm after this post.

About the ampere difference, in the Bedini circuit i have a 10k linear pot to 'tune' the circuit with, perhaps this is the reason ? It's set to about 1200k at peak performance.

Gary.


Gary the 100Ohm resister is lower therefore it puts *more* load on gen. or
bat. circuit. It's inverse. Looks at ohms law E=I*R THE ALGEBRAIC
manipulation says I = E/R, current therefore is proportional to
voltage and *inversely* proportional to resistance. more voltage means more
current, more resistance means less current because it is in the divisor.

0ohms = short circuit, infinity ohms= open circuit.

Also when you state resistance the K (meaning kilohms) really means
something, it is not redundant. So 1,200 Ohms = 1.2K ohms and not
1200Kohms (= 1.2Megohms).
So your second statement makes no sense if a pot is 10K then the reading
on the CT with nothing else connected should be somewhere between
0ohms and 10Kohms.  Therefore your statement should probably say
1.2KOhms, right? You can't get 1.2Megohms out of a 10K pot.

And Gyulasun is correct you really want to load the output coils
with a resistance that is close to or less than the (AC impedance)
of your drive coils. And I agree you seems to be getting the decimal
point wrong somewhere possibly when you read the current.
Try putting a 1.2K ohms resister across a 1.5Volt dry cell and
read the current. Should be slightly greater than 1.0ma You should
cross check these things on the meter scale that you think you have.

brown/black/brown = 100ohm resister (measured resistance will vary slightly)
                             one,zero, and one zero

brown/black/red =     1Kohm resister
                             one,zero and two zeroes

or use some high-current number printed resisters as a reference so
you can check that you can read your meter scales successfully.

Yes, on your mechanical meter if the resistance scale says
10 and your switch is set to resistance times 10 then it is
10 times 10 or 100ohms.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 06, 2010, 08:46:10 PM
Thanks Marc.

Sorry to be so ignorant, i'm trying to get things done by learning only just enough to build things. It's time i sat down and read a little (or a lot !).

I will take care with my 'K's' now, i see what you mean when i re-read my post, doh !

I will wait until my meter arrives before testing further.

I'm really looking forward to Tom's load-testing.


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 06, 2010, 11:52:11 PM
Hello Gary,

Just take it easy, everybody has a learning cycle.

If you happen to connect the 100 Ohm resistance to your diode bridge output (I identified your bridge type, it seems ok) without the puffer capacitor, you could check the output voltage there with your analoge meter set into DC voltage range 100V or or whatever it has above 50V, first without the resistor, then with the resistor and write down the voltage values.  IF you measure  say  8V-10V DC voltage in the loaded case then connect the 470uF also in parallel with the bridge output and read the voltmeter again and write down.  (Do not leave the bridge output unloaded when your capacitor is there because the voltage would go up much higher than the 16V limit of your cap and get it damaged.)

If you think you are not yet comfortable with using and reading an analog meter, then just measure some battery voltages like a 9V alkali or 12V car accu etc to practice it,  ;)  change the ranges accordingly, always start with the highest voltage range that surely includes your possible voltage value to be measured.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 07, 2010, 12:19:59 AM
Hi.

With the resistor, the voltage is 38.

Without it the voltage is 38.

Just to check i have the resistor in the right place :

I've got negative of the meter attached to neg out from bridge.
I've got resistor coming off pos out from bridge.
I've got positive of the meter connected to resistor.


Gary.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 07, 2010, 12:29:59 AM
One wire leg of the resistor goes directly to the positive bridge output and the other resistor leg goes directly to the negative bridge output.
Putting it otherwise: you connect the resistor directly across the bridge outputs.
Then you measure the voltage across the resistor.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on May 07, 2010, 04:15:24 AM
Getting this today :

http://maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=2355

If it doesn't kick in then it's time to wind that second coil and perhaps double the output for free.

Bruce,  would another coil, wound as you suggested, induct ? I thought it had to be at 90 deg to the movement of the changing magnetic field ?

@Infringer

Lots more detail eralier on in thread, MagnetMan has his videos posted on the concept.

I am following in his footsteps and ahve a much cruder setup, he will be doing his load-testing this week i think and should have better results but i will post video once it's self-powering, if it ever is lol ;+}


Gary.

It will work!!  Positioned like this...
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 07, 2010, 04:52:29 PM
OK.

I have the second coil wound now. Only half as many turns as i ran out of wire :(

When i connected that to the bridge, as well as the original coil, the motor won't start.

I'm assuming thatt's because it's two seperate outputs.

Would i be right to have the two coils connected at one end then the other two ends going onto the bridge ?

I've done that and am getting slightly better-looking results, but i can't measure volts and amps at the same time until my digi meter arrives.


Gary.




Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 07, 2010, 06:32:00 PM
Hi Gary,

Would you mind telling what voltage did you measure across the 100 Ohm load late last night? (I described 2 posts above how to connect it to the bridge because as you described 3 posts above it would have been good for the loading current measurement, setting your analog meter into current measure range.)

By the way you could be a king with only the analog meter as the only instrument at the moment:  You can trust in the 100 Ohm it is 100 Ohm and measure the output voltage as described two posts above,  THEN you could simply calculate the current from Ohm's law like I=V/R  R=100  and V=what you measure across the R, ok?

Then you could check WHETHER the input current changes as soon as you connect the 100 Ohm resistor to the output. To do this you wish to connect the positive meter pin to the positive 9.5V pole and the negative meter pin goes to your positive circuit input (you insert the meter between the battery positive and the circuit positive, that is all).  Circuit negative remains connected to the 9.5V battery negative.
And you surely see the 75mA current draw when the 100 Ohm is NOT connected and then please connect it and write down the current change (if any), ok?   
Please leave the second coil outputs unconnected for these measurements, I will return to the 2nd coil's  "how to"  later today, ok?

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 07, 2010, 11:00:54 PM
Thanks Gyula.

I hadn't thought of using maths to get the other figure ! I spent all day today just reading and memorising electronics so i shoulda thought of that !

My digi meter arrived today, a different brand from the old one but still cheap and crappy ;+}

Last night, with the 100 ohm resistor, the motor wouldn't even start.


Gary.







Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 08, 2010, 01:43:34 AM
I tried starting the motor at 18 V then attaching the resistor but the motor just slows to a stop pretty quickly.

Also, my new multimeter was fine, but now i can't even read the voltage off a 1.5V battery !

Every reading i try to take the meter signifies 'off the scale' by showing a '1' on the left-side of the display !!

Is this the magnetic field having an effect upon the meter, and will the damn thing work again ?!

Or is it all the beer i've drank tonight ? ;+}


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on May 08, 2010, 03:56:27 AM
I tried starting the motor at 18 V then attaching the resistor but the motor just slows to a stop pretty quickly.

Also, my new multimeter was fine, but now i can't even read the voltage off a 1.5V battery !

Every reading i try to take the meter signifies 'off the scale' by showing a '1' on the left-side of the display !!

Is this the magnetic field having an effect upon the meter, and will the damn thing work again ?!

Or is it all the beer i've drank tonight ? ;+}


Gary.

Hi Gary,

Take a deep breath my friend.... lol  All is well!  I would suggest you take a few quick pictures with your phone, of your resistor, how and where it is hooked, for Gyula to see.  And then look how I have the picture below of how to wire your two output coils.

Cheers,

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 08, 2010, 04:08:20 AM
Hi Bruce,

thanks for the coil diagrams, i have them connected in series at the moment, will try parallel after this post.

A picture of where my resistor is placed is here, it looks clumsy but it's tight and not making contact where it shouldn't. I've marked the bridge ins/outs :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/resistor.jpg


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 08, 2010, 04:48:37 AM
Bruce,

when the coils are wired in parallel, before being attached to the bridge or a resistor or anything, the motor won't run.

I have tried both permutations of connection and no joy :(

Surely, because each coil is a separate output, the induced voltages are sort of fighting each other ?

Shame, because i'd like more amps :)

*EDIT* sry im being dumb i NEED the resistor in there don't i otherwise it's a shor-circuit ? *EDIT*

*EDIT* nope. same thing. im not being dumb am i ? as soon as the two coils are connected in parallel it acts like a short-circuit ? *EDIT*



Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 08, 2010, 05:03:55 AM
I'm thinking i should rectify both output coils seperately then sum the output after the bridge ?

*EDIT* then again, after separate rectification how on earth can they be summed ?

Surely it's like having two power sources trying to go to one input ??

Anyway it's 4am here so im of to get some shuteye, nn :) *EDIT*


Gary, the ever-confused (and sleepy) ;+}
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on May 08, 2010, 08:01:04 AM
I'm thinking i should rectify both output coils seperately then sum the output after the bridge ?

*EDIT* then again, after separate rectification how on earth can they be summed ?

Surely it's like having two power sources trying to go to one input ??

Anyway it's 4am here so im of to get some shuteye, nn :) *EDIT*


Gary, the ever-confused (and sleepy) ;+}

I think you have induction from your motor coil into your output coil.  Seperate the coil at that one spot, so there is no wire between the motor coil and the magnet at this one point.  See attached pic.  That should work....

Cheers,

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 08, 2010, 12:30:00 PM
Hi Bruce.

I have widened the gap between the drive and pickup coils and it still cuts out when a circuit is formed by the output coils :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/coilspace.jpg

Here is a vid of it shorting :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp5CwUdmHCk

Am i wrong in thinking that you can't have two power sources (both output coils) fully connected ? Isn't that then a closed loop of power running around so it's one big short-circuit ?

The drive coil/circuitry is totally seperate from the pickup coils, not connected at all.


Gary.










Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 08, 2010, 12:58:42 PM
Hi Gary.

Yes the two output coils mutually short each other if connected directly.  If you wish to use them together you can connect the two in series, this adds the output voltages  (you have to watch for this connection not to counter connect them because then their voltage difference comes out, not their sum).  IF you want higher current than you have to use thicker wire, just like the practice shows for normal mains transformers.

Quote
Last night, with the 100 ohm resistor, the motor wouldn't even start.

Quote
I tried starting the motor at 18 V then attaching the resistor but the motor just slows to a stop pretty quickly. 

These are bad news unfortunately. It can only be explained by the normal Lenz law effect any normal generator has. You may say this is not a normal generator...  this is true BUT Lenz law is still valid, unfortunately.

Quote
Also, my new multimeter was fine, but now i can't even read the voltage off a 1.5V battery !

Every reading i try to take the meter signifies 'off the scale' by showing a '1' on the left-side of the display !!

IT is a good idea to take the meter away from the revolving magnet field (or stop the motor) and just check it with a 1.5V battery again. If you find the same problem with the meter than it may be faulty? Check it in every possible range like resistor measurement, AC mains voltage in its highest AC range etc, be careful!

Thanks for your PM, just read it and sorry I do not have Skype or msn etc.
Will answer your problems here from time to time for sure.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 08, 2010, 02:04:31 PM
Thanks Gyula, i thought as much.

What are your thoughts on this meter i am thinking of getting next week :

http://www.uni-trend.com/manual2/UT50ABC%20Eng%20Manual.pdf


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 08, 2010, 02:36:05 PM
Hi.

When the coils are connected in series i am getting nearly 50 VDC.

I decided to put the two coils through seperate bridges, both bridges are the same product.

My original coil is outputting ~40 VDC.

The new coil is outputting ~20 VDC.

Why, when they are in series, am i not getting ~60 VDC ?


Gary.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 08, 2010, 03:05:17 PM
I'm wondering ... if the pipe section that the magnet is housed in were to be wound as a toroidal coil, surely that would boost output considerably since all the induction angles are covered, so to speak ?

I have contacted a transformer manufacturer to find someone that can wind around plastic cores, wish me luck ;+}


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 08, 2010, 04:55:43 PM
Hi Gary,

The multimeters are ok, model UT 50C has frequency measurement feature too (the other two do not have) if you do not have an oscilloscope then it may be useful if you wish to check rotors RPMs, otherwise the UT 50A is appropiate too, there are only small differences (in finer measurement ranges)  between the two models.
(You have to know that such multimeters are calibrated to sinusoidal waveforms, up to max 400Hz AC and cannot measure square waves or pulses correctly.)

Quote
  My original coil is outputting ~40 VDC.

The new coil is outputting ~20 VDC.

Why, when they are in series, am i not getting ~60 VDC ?

Please read this link on the full wave AC rectification 'secrets' and study the positive half waves that are created after the rectification. 
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/diode/diode_6.html
As I mentioned, all the meters (analog or digital) are calibrated to sinusoidal waveforms, and even though you use the DC voltage range, these half wave peaks may trick your meter and render it inaccurate, this is what I can think of your question, maybe there exists other explanation for it. Did you use analog meter for those DC voltage measurements?

From the obove link you can see what is the effect of the puffer capacitor to smooth out the half peaks to pure DC voltage.  But you have to use electrolytic caps with at least 63V DC working voltage. Much better comparisons could be made with purer DC voltages.

Quote
  I have contacted a transformer manufacturer to find someone that can wind around plastic cores, wish me luck ;+}

Do you think further costs are justified to spend before you fully explore with the present setup its possible efficiency?  For instance use load resistors in the some kiloOhm range where the rotor magnet already cannot stop due to the load and see the input/output power relationship etc.

rgds,  Gyula

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 08, 2010, 05:43:42 PM
Thanks very much Gyula, that is all really helpful.

I used my analogue for those measurements.

The transformer chap said he will look into it now i have given him dimensions and such, i am only getting a quote for the moment.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on May 09, 2010, 09:10:19 PM

@deepcut

The reason the two AC coils won't add is that they are driven with
different phases. The coils are called poles of a magnetic device and
magnets create the sinusoidal waveform of the AC in the coils.
The waveform is at the highest instantaneous voltage when a
magnetic poles point along the exact center line of the coil. The coils
alternately see the N/S pole coming towards it. Your two coils are
pointing in different directions therefore the AC voltage waveforms
don't match up to add up. An o'scope would show this, that the two
voltages are out-of-phase. Once you convert these independently to
DC and filter cap. though there should be no problem adding the DC
voltages up.

:S:MarkSCoffman
 
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 09, 2010, 11:26:31 PM
Ah brilliant Mark, thanks :)

I will try that and post back results.

*EDIT* I was wondering if there is a limit to this setup. Tom has 3,200 feet of wire in his inductive coil but surely there is a critical threshold where a certain amount of input voltage an't excite beyond a certain length of wire ?

I've googled 'limits of electromagnetic induction' and the like but with no joy as yet.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on May 10, 2010, 03:25:11 AM

...
*EDIT* I was wondering if there is a limit to this setup. Tom has 3,200 feet of wire in his inductive coil but surely there is a critical threshold where a certain amount of input voltage an't excite beyond a certain length of wire ?

I've googled 'limits of electromagnetic induction' and the like but with no joy as yet.


Gary.

Oh please, you're begining to sound like Joe Newman!  :)
Next you'll be saying that scotch tape can't be a fuel. ;)
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 10, 2010, 11:56:07 AM
Oh please, you're begining to sound like Joe Newman!  :)
Next you'll be saying that scotch tape can't be a fuel. ;)

::W H O O S H:: ... that's the sound of what you just said going right over my head ... ;+}
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 10, 2010, 10:40:22 PM
...
*EDIT* I was wondering if there is a limit to this setup. Tom has 3,200 feet of wire in his inductive coil but surely there is a critical threshold where a certain amount of input voltage an't excite beyond a certain length of wire ?
...

Hi Gary,

As long as the magnetic field is able to penetrate the coil's volume and 'cut' the wires, you will get induction hence induced voltage. Of course higher volume coils need stronger fields to penetrate because of the higher coil sizes, both in diameter and in length. And stronger fields need higher input power, this is one side of the coin.

The problem is not really what you ask but the increasing lenght of wire...   Here is a link to copper wire resistances in the function of wire diameter and length: http://www.thelenchannel.com/1wire.php

for instance, choosing AWG 30 Solid wire, the chart says this gauge has 113 Ohm resistance for 1000 feet. You mentioned Tom's 3200 feet long wire and if he uses this AWG 30 wire (a diameter of 0.25mm) he will have about 113 x 3.2=361.6 Ohm DC resistance for the total coil. 

This means that if he wishes to load this generator coil and the load would take 0.1 Amper as the load current, then the voltage drop just due to the long wire would be V=I x R= 0.1 x 361.6= 36.16V, ok? 
This is just the voltage loss that would never reach the load, it dissipates into heat in the wire  (the heat loss in Watts is I2 x R, so 0.1 x 0.1 x 361.6= 3.616 W). 

So the longer the wire you wish to use for the generator coil, the higher diameter you wish to use to reduce copper loss but this involves higher volume coils and higher cost and this is an ever-increasing problem: you are forced for a trade-off.  Conventional generators surely use as thick wires as the output power demand dictates, to keep the physical sizes of the generator and the heat losses at a compromised and still acceptable level. (Of course I am not a generator designer, I just think on this problem.)

You could say: what is the problem once Tom has more than a 100V output voltage, so 36V loss from it may not be a big problem. 

Well if this nearly one/third voltage loss would be indeed THE loss, than I do not think this loss would be a big problem,  however you have to consider Lenz law which is the Number 1 enemy here, as you have already experienced.  All you wanted to do is to take out at least as much current as you invested at the input (about 75mA in your case @ 9.5V or so) and your magnet did not even start to rotate or came to a halt as soon as you used a REAL load of a 100 Ohm resistor.  On the word REAL I mean a load which is present across the voltage source in every and each moment of the AC cycle.
LED diodes do not behave in the same way as a load in the sense as a normal resistor does.  For instance LEDs are diodes and as such they conduct current when they sense forward bias polarity (any moment when their anode is positive with respect to their cathode). This can only happen in the half cycle part of a full AC cycle, ok? 
Next problem with the LEDS is they have a certain forward voltage threshold under which they do not conduct even if the polarity is correct: for instance a white LED needs any voltage between from 3 to 3.4V forward voltage to start conducting and give out light.  IF you connect them in series, than you have to multiply this 3 to 3.4V with the number of diodes in series, like 20 pieces of LED do not draw any current under 20 x 3V=60V. In case of a sinusoidal output voltage that suppose has 120V peak to peak value, the 20 LEDs in series would not conduct whenever the instantenous voltage value is under 60V across them even if the voltage polarity is correctly forward biases them in the appropiate half cycle of the full AC waveform. And you can calculate power consumption only when the LEDS conduct!
So you see what difference LEDs make as a load wrt a resistor and how decisive it can be.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 10, 2010, 11:06:48 PM
Thank you Gyula, that clears a lot up in my mind.

I am reading two fantastic books at the moment :

Introduction to Magnetic Materials, by B.D. Cullity and C.D Graham,

and,

Practical Electronics for Inventors, by Paul Scherz.

I hope to know a lot more by the end of this year than i did at the beginning :)


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 11, 2010, 07:09:13 PM
I can't buy any more goodies until next week, but in the meantime i've had an idea that i'm going to try with what i have in my little plastic box.

1. Remove the magnet from the setup entirely.

2. Place the drive coil inside the induction coil. The drive coil has a ferrite core.

3. Pulse the drive coil with a signal generator.

Advantages :

No axle friction.
Probably less power input.
Quiet, so no moaning girlfriends ;+}
The drive coil can be pulsed much more rapidly than the magnet can rotate, effectively increasing RPM by a large amount.

Disadvantages :

A weaker magnetic field than the rotating Neo magnet.

That's the only disadvantage i can think of.

I want to make this circuit :

http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_signal_generator.htm

I have all i need, the cap i'm using is 10u, so i get 48Hz.

I have some questions, though. I'm still nervous when making circuits.

This is what i'm assuming from the circuit diagram (which is looking at the 555 from the underside mounted in a 14-pin IC socket), starting at the cap and going CW.

1. The cap goes from pin1 to pin2.
2. A 1k resistor from pin2 to the 10k pot.
3. The 10k pot goes to pin7.
4. The other 10k pot goes to a 1k resistor.
5. The resistor then goes to pin7.
6. Pins 6 and 2 are connected with wire.
7. A 100 o resistor from pin3 to output.

Also, i'm assuming the resistors go to the middle-leg of the pots.

Phew !

If anyone can help me with this i'd be very grateful :)


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 12, 2010, 06:06:02 PM
Hurray !!!

I figured it out :)

Perseverance is a wonderful thing !


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 12, 2010, 06:53:34 PM
Any ideas on how to add a 2N3055 to this so i can pulse a coil ?


Thanks,

Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 12, 2010, 07:52:22 PM
Hello Gary,

There is the series 100 Ohm resistor at pin 3 as the output, change this resistor to any value between 2.2 to 3.6 kOhm and this resitor would go directly from pin 3 to the 2N3055 base electrode. The emitter would go to negative GND and the collector would connect to one end of your coil and the coil's other end would connect to the positive supply voltage like 6V to 9V or 12V. 

You have to consider your coil's DC resistance when choosing your supply voltage from 6V to 12V because if you happen to have a 1 Ohm DC resistance coil and you happen to use 12V supply voltage then the collector current is nearly 12 Amper (from Ohm's law I=V/R) which is surely unnecessarily high for your application (unless you deliberately needs it).

Another problem might be the 70-80V absolute maximum collector emitter breakdown voltage for this transistor because a coil with relatively high inductance can produce rather high voltage spikes when the current is switched off in it, and you do not wish to burn out the transistor. A neon bulb like NE2 or similar can help to limit this high pulse to 60-70V if connected between the collector and emitter.  However, if you want to use this voltage spike and capture it in a capacitor via a fast switching diode then the neon is a drawback to use but then you have to choose another type of transistor that is able to withstand higher voltages like 250-300V or so.

Gyula

PS: by the way your previous questions were all with yes answers, as you figured out which is the best way of learning.  :) ;) :)
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 13, 2010, 12:24:48 AM
Thanks Gyula :)

Yes i really had to push myself on the sig-gen as it's only the second circuit i have built, i was very pleased when it worked. I had to attach a little speaker i took from a wind-up radio to the circuit then i heard it pulsing and heard the pulse change when i turned the pots.

So gratifying when you persever and it works !

Unfortunately i don't have and can't make up a 2.2k resistor or resistor-chain.

Could i use the ones from the circuit and replace those with two others ?

I'm not even sure what aspect of the signal those resistors affect, i think it's the duty-cycle ?


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 13, 2010, 12:37:27 AM
Do you have a 10kOhm or 4.7kOhm potmeter? it would be good too.

If you use the 100 Ohm only the base current into the transistor would be extremely high and this would load the 555 output stage way too much too.

Maybe you could replace the duty cycle potmeter with any value up to 10-15kOhm and use the potmeter ?

Gyula
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 13, 2010, 12:42:18 AM
Great idea !

I have a 10k res so ill put that in place of the 10k fine-control pot and use the pot at the output.

Thanks again :)

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 13, 2010, 12:46:39 AM
Ooops !

One more thing ...

Using a pot instead of a resistor from pin-3, pin-3 would go to an outer leg of the pot or the middle ?

I am thinking the outer leg ?


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 13, 2010, 12:50:04 AM
It is all the same: if it goes to an outer leg then the wiper goes to the base electrode

Or vice versa.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 13, 2010, 01:08:35 AM
It's working a treat Gyula thank you so much :)

My tachometer arrived today :)


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 13, 2010, 01:24:10 AM
Damn !

Just smoked my transistor - shoulda had the neon across it ! Doh !

Oh well, tomorrow is another day, thanks again for your time, patience and encouragement Gyula :)


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 13, 2010, 01:59:00 AM
OK, the transistor gave off smoke (or something did) but it still works !

I connected it all up and the basic concept works.

Sitting the pulsing coil inside the induction coil was giving me a few mVDC.

I'm assuming it's DC now because there is no rotating magnetic field but an expanding/collapsing field ?

Doing it this way is drawing 2 to 5 times as much input power as doing it with the magnet but i think that can be gotten around by having a larger ferrite core in the drive coil as well as having better-suited resistors in place.

Also a different capacitor to give a much faster pulse.

I'm so glad i joined this forum :)

I got thrown off the energetic forum after accusing them of being profiteers, LOL ;+}

Time for sleep.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: e2matrix on May 13, 2010, 03:46:51 AM
Try moving a strong neo magnet around near or up against various points on the coils.  You'll likely see a greater output/lower input at some point with the magnet against one.  It does not need to spin for this effect. 
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 13, 2010, 11:18:20 AM
Hi e2.

Yes i'd noticed that before, i'm assuming it's my imperfect winding and you get 'hotspots' here and there ?

Even so it always seems to be best dead-centre.

I have no callouts today so will be having  go at building this :

http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_signal_generator2.htm

Seperate duty-cycle/frequency control :)


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: e2matrix on May 13, 2010, 08:10:08 PM
Nice circuit.  Thanks Gary I was just looking for something like this.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 13, 2010, 08:10:58 PM
Guess what ?

I need help  :D

I'm making this :

http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_signal_generator2.htm

and i'm not sure what part of the pot R4 goes to.

Any help greatly appreciated,

Gary.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 13, 2010, 10:23:27 PM
It goes to any one of the ends, the wiper goes to IC2 inverting Input and the pot's other end goes to R2.  Is that what you asked?
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 14, 2010, 08:43:49 PM
Thanks Gyula.

I still can't get it to work.

Where would the VR1 wiper go ? I have it  going to R1 ?


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on May 14, 2010, 09:59:02 PM
Hi Gary,

Wiper of VR1 can be connected to any of the other two potmeter legs (between which the pot value is understood).

Putting it otherwise, wiper can go to pin 7 of IC1 (which is R1 indeed) or can go to pin 6-2..etc, any one of these two is good.  This way the pot is not a divider but a simple variable resistor, normally the unused third leg is connected to the wiper.  This insures if the wiper fails, the full resistance of the potmeter can function in a circuit.  The circuit symbol 'arrow' across the resistor body means the resistor is a variable pot.

Gyula
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 15, 2010, 03:50:06 AM
I'm giving up on that one for the moment :(


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 15, 2010, 03:36:22 PM
I've been using the first PWM circuit and it seems like it takes too much input energy and output very little energy.

Maybe a collapsing/expanding mag field isn't as efficient as a moving one.

Back to the old setup, this was an interesting tangent anyway !


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: e2matrix on May 15, 2010, 06:16:09 PM
Hi Gary,  I think trying to get back power with just a couple coils interacting with each other is a great idea but not in this particular way.  It is really what is the basis of the TPU by Steven Marks as I understand it but there are some definite ways the coils need to be would around each other as well as multiple specific frequencies that need to be pulsed on them.  A bit more complex but if you get it right the power gained can be enormous.  I've read reports of COP over 1000!  If you've read some of the TPU subforum messages you probably know he was using a 9 volt battery and was getting thousands of watts out.  This is why I'm focusing more on that device right now but there is a ton of info to digest on it.  And I'm not even sure anyone has built a successful replica yet.   
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 15, 2010, 06:20:30 PM
That sounds interesting.

I'll look through the forums, thanks.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 19, 2010, 04:25:08 PM
Got some new wire today, a pound of 0.5 mm.

Will wind a new coil and see how much this adds to current-out.

Just waiting for my drill battery to charge !


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 19, 2010, 09:26:36 PM
OK.

Wound a new coil :

SIZE : 25 SWG (0.5 mm)

LENGTH : 286 M

OHM/METER : 0.0871


And ... it sucks :(

Amps are way up but voltage is way down, i don't understand :(

Spent my hard earned cash and a whole day for diddley-squat !


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 19, 2010, 09:54:42 PM
Doh !

I was using my old resistor, which wasn't right for the higher input i'm using now.

I should be using a 180 ohm resistor according to initial input power, but closest i have is a 220 in my box.

New results :

INPUT : 18 VDC @ 0.105 A = 1.89 W

OUTPUT : 2.8 VDC @ 0.005 A = 0.014 W

It's running fairly slowly but it's running for 15 minutes now.


What do those figures mean to you guys who know the maths ?


Gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on May 21, 2010, 01:48:21 AM
my best friendes mum dieid we are drunk and away for the weekend
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on May 21, 2010, 04:22:30 AM
Our condolances, Gary.  Peace to your friend and his family.

Kind regards,

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 08, 2010, 05:23:22 PM
Thanks Bruce.

I am going to buy this scope :

http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/2-channel-5v-pc-usb-digital-storage-oscilloscope-new-001482-009.html

I know it's cheap, etc but i have no choice at the moment, can anyone tell me which of these probes would be suitable for it :

http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/search?VIEW_SIZE=10&PAGING=Y&SEARCH_OPERATOR=AND&SEARCH_CATALOG_ID=VVCatalogUK&SEARCH_STRING=oscilloscope


Thank you, gary.


Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on June 08, 2010, 07:50:18 PM

The 2channel scope is surprisingly inexpensive, just be aware of the
fact that the sample rate (see specification) is what determans the
max bandwidth signal you can look at and it is really low. There is
frequency aliasing at 2x the sample frequency.  The 5channel scope
is somewhat better in the frequency department. You may want to
observe a Hantek DS-2090 USB Scope for comparison. Any of the
oscilloscope probes listed on that page will work as they all greatly
exceed the signal bandwidth of the unit itself.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 08, 2010, 07:55:39 PM
Thanks Mark.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 08, 2010, 08:00:34 PM
I'm looking for one that's good enough to observe the spikes from the Bedini circuit, will the cheapy i'm looking at be fast enough to spot them ? Or would a spike like that blow the scope ?


p.s. the 2090 looks nice


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on June 08, 2010, 08:09:44 PM
Hi,

For the probes this would seem acceptable (you get two identical probes)
http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/2-x-60mhz-oscilloscope-clip-probes-rods-tips-testing-001482-003.html

For the scope, cannot you wait and save some more to get a higher bandwidth scope?  I say this because here is some spec on it:

Measurable frequency: 0Hz -----3kHz
Adjustable range of time domain: 10 mS/DIV----10800 S/DIV

I can only think from these specifications that this PC scope has a bandwitdth of a few kiloHerz only? Sounds very very small ...  almost useless for an avarege tinkerer...  If you build a Joule thief and it happens to run at ,suppose, 30-40kHz, you would not be able to see the pulses with this scope. 
You would need a scope with a bandwidth of at least 10MegaHertz, also dual channel.  I know it would cost more but why would you buy something with very limited features and later when you have it already you experience the limits and start collecting for a better one...

I have found this on UK ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GOULD-405-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-100Ms-s-20MHz-/160442464615?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item255b1db967   comes with two probes included! It is in Bristol and costs 50 Pounds, slightly used condition.


Here is another used scope but working and its bidding price starts from 1 Pound:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hewlett-Packard-54200A-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-/400127006941?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item5d296d98dd

Just look around some more if none of the above courts you...  :)  If you could grab the HP54200A for £1.00 and could personally collect it, it would be worth buying because if it gets wrong later in time you lost £1.00 + petrol if you collected it personally, otherwise the postage. With this you need the two probes I referred above.

Edit: you can find some more info on this: http://www.valuetronics.com/Details.aspx?Model=Agilent%20HP_54200A&ProdID=6543

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 08, 2010, 08:54:16 PM
Great links ! (and advice).

Thanks Gyula :)
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 08, 2010, 09:10:42 PM
I'm looking at these DSO 2090/2150 ones on ebay and elsewhere.

What if you got a large voltage spike on a USB scope, would it fry the box ?

I ahven't a clue how probes work and am assuming they're like multimeter probes ?


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 08, 2010, 11:03:49 PM
Hi.

Am ordering a second magnet tomorrow, same as the current one.

There is just enough room inside my coil for two.

Reading the equations for DC motors it looks to me like RPM and magnetic field strength are important to output so i'm hoping for a generous improvement.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on June 08, 2010, 11:18:25 PM
Gary,

The question rather is what happens to any scope if a large voltage spike hits its input?
Well, most likely the scope gets damaged, its input circuits probably get 'fried' etc. Normally, USB scopes are designed to "bear" 20-30V maximum (either DC or peak AC), beyond that you have to use 10:1 probes, these lift up the max limit to about 300V, and beyond that you have to use a 100:1 probe, designed for handling max 2500-3000V.

See this simple explanation on probes: http://www.hobbyprojects.com/oscilloscope_tutorial/oscilloscope_probes.html

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 09, 2010, 12:53:35 AM
Ah nice one.

That makes me feel safer, i didn't realise the protection was in the probe :)


Thanks again.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 12, 2010, 12:07:33 AM
I added the second magnet to the axle but it doesn't turn.

At first i thought that it was the extra mass that was the problem then i noticed it would turn if only one magnet was directly above it.

I've realised there is a kind of a dead-spot where the two magnets meet on the shaft. They are cylinder magnets, diametrically magnetised with a 6mm hole through length for the shaft.

I'm thinking if i had one, long magnet this would work.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 14, 2010, 02:29:38 AM
Someone (i can't remember who) suggested a double-pole double-throw switch to be used to test whether or not this device can self-power.

Would this be the right thing to buy :

http://maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=37518

Also, check these test results, it seems an air-core is better than a ferrite one :

INPUT : 9.57 VDC @ 0.83 A = 0.79431 W

OUTPUT : 19.8 VDC @ 0.22 A = 4.356 W

I didn't measure the current but calculated it using Ohm's Law.

The resistance of the coil is 90 ohms therefore the current (I = V/R) is 19.8/90 = 0.22 A.

Am i doing this right, because it's an apparent COP of 5.48 ?


Thanks.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: FatChance!!! on June 14, 2010, 11:41:23 AM
INPUT : 9.57 VDC @ 0.83 A = 0.79431 W

OUTPUT : 19.8 VDC @ 0.22 A = 4.356 W

Your input calculation is wrong.
INPUT: 9.57 VDC @ 0.83 A = 7.9431 W
Efficiency: 4.356 W / 7.9431 W = COP 0.54 = 54% efficiency.

Conclusion:
You can save your money for better things.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 14, 2010, 02:51:59 PM
Hi.

Sorry i typed it wrong !

Should be .083 not .83.

Sorry i do that i lot i gota be more careful when typing.

INPUT: 9.57 VDC @ 0.083 A = 0.79431

I think we should ALL be replicating this since it's piss-easy to construct as well as cheap, and most of us probably have Bedini circuits lying around anyway.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on June 14, 2010, 03:55:20 PM
Gary,  you mentioned your output load is the DC resistance of a coil, correct?

Question: Do you have a full wave bridge (or a single diode) at the output and then you use a puffer capacitor and you load the capacitor with the coil?

Or you do not have a puffer capacitor, maybe you do not have a diode either? I wonder.

EDIT: just noticed you wrote DC output voltage so you surely had the diodes bridge, now the question is the puffer capacitor. 
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 14, 2010, 07:16:16 PM
Hi Gyulasun.

I don't have a load on it.

I wnted to know, purely, the watts in vs the watts out without measuring current with a resistor load bla bla so i did what you said before, read the voltage with a DVM and calculated the current because the coil resistance is known.

I couldn't find the post where you previously suggested a puffer cap, am i right in thinking you put it across the bridge output and also what properties should it have (uF and V) ?

(I am in the process of making a new housing for the magnet assembly so that the entire coil is wrapped in the plane of the shaft to maximise induction, getting the wire tomorrow).

*EDIT* I have a 47uf/35v and a 100uf/10v to hand *EDIT*


Thanks.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: gyulasun on June 14, 2010, 09:49:38 PM
Yes, you put the puffer cap in parallel with the diode bridge DC output, with the correct polarity.
It is ok that you calculated the output current but:

If you did not use a puffer capacitor when you measured your output DC voltage, then you cannot trust on the the measured 19.8V DC output because of the half sinewave series of output. The capacitor would smooth them out, use the 47uF/35V capacitor. A 470 or 1000uF would be much better but you do not have that at hand in at least for 35V WV.

There can be another "problem":  I would suggest watching the input current whether it changes to a higher value than the .083A WHEN you add the 90 Ohm load at the output (the puffer cap is already there too). Here I assume the 9.57V supply voltage remains stable.
IF the input current of .083A changes to a higher value, then note the new value and then check the DC output voltage across the puffer capacitor (which is equivalent with the output where you connect the 90 Ohm load and note the output voltage, then recalculate, ok.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 15, 2010, 12:50:21 AM
OK i put a cap on and the voltage counts down from 25 to 0.6 and statys at 0.6.

What am i doing this for and what does it mean LOL ?

p.s. it is the 47uf/35v cap.

Gary.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 15, 2010, 02:18:55 AM
OK my fault (as usual !) one of the coil ends wasn't contacting the rectifier properly.

I have rectified the situation (LOL !).

OK.

I have made some adjustments to the system so here is an appraisal of current setup :

1. A DC PSU is powering a Bedini circuit.

2. The Bedini circuit is driving a magnet and the drive coil is now air-cored.

3. The magnet is rotating inside an output coil.

4. The output coil goes through a full-wave bridge rectifier with a 47uF/35V puffer cap.

The coil resistance is 90 ohms.

Results :

INPUT : 9.53 VDC  @  0.070 A = 0.6678 W

OUTPUT : 36.8 VDC

The current is :

I=V/R = 36.8/90 = 0.408

So the output watts is 36.8 * 0.408 = 15.0144.

Apparent COP = 15.0144/0.6678 = 22.48 !

Some of you guys MUST have the time to explore this in parallel with Tom and i, it's just far too interesting not to, surely !

I am buying a DPDT switch or relay tomorrow, this thing has to self-run.

Also, Gyulasun, there is no change in voltage/current at the PSU when the cap is on.

Thanks,

Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: FatChance!!! on June 15, 2010, 08:25:05 AM
Wow, if you surely got COP 22 then a self runner is a must.
And hopefully a small video for us to see.
Otherwise you need to check where the measurement error lies.
Hopefully there is no error this time.

How are you gonna adapt the high output of 36V down to 9V input?
The best way is using a regular buck switch with an efficiency of 95%.
But maybe switched electronics is out of your league?
Then a standard linear regulator, type LM7810, for 10V output could
work fine due to the low input currents of 70mA involved.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/LM/LM7810.html
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 15, 2010, 01:11:27 PM
Thanks Fatchance.

Yes i'm a noob with electronics but i can construct simple circuits from schematics.

I'm off to the shop today so will look for the right sort of switch.

I double-checked the figures and i'm sure it's all correct. It's hardly complicated so there's little room for error even for someone like me who rushes sometimes.

Will report back later.


Thanks,

Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on June 15, 2010, 01:56:12 PM
Tom, who originated the idea also has overunity.  He and I write one another often.  He is soon to be working with much larger magnets.  I can not for the life of me figure out why more people are not interested in this.  Tom has given all of the details and Gary has sought to replicate.

Gary,
What size wire are you using for your pick up coil?  How many feet? 

Good work.  Now post some videos and pictures for the forum, please.

Cheers,

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: FatChance!!! on June 15, 2010, 03:48:56 PM
I believe the reason to the lack of interest is the blurry information.
I haven't found any links to detailed build info and results.
Could you point me to good and specific info how to replicate this device?
I'd love to replicate if I had access to all the details without any hidden parts.

And I have the dough and and resources for a heavy duty replication.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 15, 2010, 04:49:27 PM
OK i've taken some pictures and i'll do a video after posting this. My video quality is crap but the pictures are high-res.

What you need :

1. A DC power supply. I have a PSU but obviously a battery could be used.

2. A Bedini circuit. But since we're not charging batteries here you just re-route the wires that would normally go to the battery that would be being charged. As i was able to do this i'm sure i don't need to explain how to anyone here but here's a picture of my old Bedini circuit with the rerouted wires, bear in mind this is not the setup under discussion but just a picture that had the Bedini circuit in it :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bedini.no.charging.jpg

3. A drive coil. This is the small coil you see in the above picture. This coil is bifilar wound, the red wire is the trigger wire and the gold wire is the power wire. When you start the magnet rotating at first by hand, this causes a tiny charge in the red wire via induction, this then activates the transistor in the Bedini circuit to let in the main supply power which goes down the gold power wire and gives the coil a magnetic field strong enough to repel the magnet. My trigger wire is 0.25mm and my power wire is 0.28mm but there is a large tolerance when it comes to the wire gauge. I did 800 turns of both wires. I found an air ore works better than a ferrite core.

4. A rod-shaped neodymium magnet that is diametrically magnetised. This means that rather than North and South being at either end of the magnet, each curved side of the magnet is North and South, it is magnetised through it's diameter rather than it's length. This magnet also needs a hole through it's length so it can be mounted on a shaft. The hole in my magnet is 6mm, here is a picture :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/magnet.on.shaft.JPG

I copied Tom and use 6mm carbon rod for the shaft because it's light.

5. A pickup coil. I used 0.25mm wire, same as the trigger wire. My resistance is 90 ohms. I wrapped it around a cut-off pringles can and made holes in the can for the shaft to go through. Here is a picture :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/pickup.coil.JPG

I put insulating tape on the bottom of the holes to stop the shaft rubbing against the wire.

6. A full-wave bridge rectifier to turn the AC from the pickup coil into DC.

7. A capacitor across the rectifier output. Gyulasun called this a puffer capacitor. This gave a great improvement to the output.

I put my Bedini circuit into a project box just so it was tidy, here is a picture :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/project.box.JPG

The three wires sticking out of the top are, from left to right :

a. From collector of transistor.
b. From emitter of transistor.
c. From outer leg of potentiometer

I'll do a video now and stick it on youtube.


Thanks,

Gary.



Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on June 15, 2010, 05:00:37 PM

...
I wnted to know, purely, the watts in vs the watts out without measuring current with a resistor load bla bla so i did what you said before, read the voltage with a DVM and calculated the current because the coil resistance is known.
...


@Deepcut

You have learned a lot I think, and this is good.

But I have problem with the above measurement scenario.

The output circuit need to be divided into two parts;
the coil that operates on the AC signal and the rectifier
bridge and cap filter that operates on DC signal.
What you are trying to do is use the DC resistance
on the AC side of the circuit and this is *incorrect*.
The resistance the AC signal sees is called (capacitive
or inductive) reactance. The coil is an inductor so
the resistance that the AC signal sees has to be the
inductance of coil combined with the frequency of the
AC signal, which is also the speed in REVS per Second
that the rotor is turning.

The only way to do what you are doing is to know the
resistance that is the same as effective resistance of coil
at the AC frequency. So you can't skip the full DC analysis
of the power. Once you have measured the true DC power
correctly -> then you can calculate the effective AC
resistance of the output coil at frequency and use
that in the future and I guarantee it is going to be significantly
higher resistance then the DC resistance of the coil.

Because you are using a significantly lower effective resistance
in your calculations the actual numbers you calculate are erroneously
showing more output power and therefore a higher COP than you
actually have. This doesn't mean you have no overunity COP as
there may or may not be some left.

Which is why self running device is the gold standard for overunity
energy production.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 15, 2010, 05:31:55 PM
Mark.

I don't like you anymore !

Just kidding :)

Damn i knew it was too good to be true ...

So, how do i do the proper calculations ?

Oh, and here is a link to the video, i've just put it up so it may take a minute or two to be there i don't know :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7LbB7FWfO4


Thanks Mark, for teaching :)

btw i found this, i think it's what you told me so i will learn it :

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book2/4a.htm

those NEETS books are great, nice one US Navy :)

Gary.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 15, 2010, 06:07:19 PM
Well thankfully the inductive reactance formula is simple.

I don't yet have an LCR meter though :(

I need to get one that measures frequency as well.

This free-energy isn't very free is it ? LOL ...

Can inductance be derived from other known properties maybe ?

Sorry, i'm posting when i should be googling !

I have a job to go to this evening so see you later tonight or tomorrow.


Thanks,

Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on June 15, 2010, 08:41:34 PM
Hi Guys,

This is my latest and I am still improving it. Decided to wait for a 2 inch diameter 2 inch long diametric spin magnet to arrive before I look at power in and power out figures.

Made some major improvements to the magnet/axle assembly
Will show that later.

Tom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E20BWoeHCIw&feature=channel

Tom
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: broli on June 15, 2010, 09:49:57 PM
I'll seriousness and curiousity, how much did filling a patent cost in total?
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on June 16, 2010, 04:06:08 AM
First you start with a patent pending good for one year. About $80.  If you cant market the device during that time frame then you are faced spending about $10,000 dollars to go for a real patent thats good for 25 years.
 Mind you however if someone else tops your idea by a different way and patents it then you have pounded your money down a rathole.  Your device becomes a mute issue.
Also you run the risk of having the military or some government agency step in and tell you that what you are doing is classified and they will take it from you. As the inventor you might also vanish along with your device.  "MIB visits"

I post all information on what I do on the internet and keep no secrets at all. My commercial concern is to direct any  potential profits to a charity. That why I have a patent pending.

Now the cats out of the bag and the whole world knows about your device  by putting all info on the internet. I am not into this for money or fame just for personal satisfaction that  overunity can  be accomplished.

If someone replicating this device can cross the overunity quest finish line ahead of me and post all their info for others to see I will congradulate him or her and consider my mission accomplished.

Tom
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on June 16, 2010, 04:30:03 AM
[A author=magnetman12003 link=topic=9076.msg238202#msg238202 date=1271682975]
This You Tube video shows and tells all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj388d43Ufo&feature=channel

I have vastly improved this setup since I posted it.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: magnetman12003 on June 16, 2010, 05:12:03 AM
I found that the Bedini/Davro setup can spin a Diametric ring magnet continuously at hi speeds and uses very little watt power to do so regardless of the size of the magnet.  At least up to 2 inches in diameter so far.

Having said that a certain shaped wave form unique to the Bedini/Davro setup is generated by the circuit that powers the Bedini coil.  I noticed that the SPINNING MAGNET ITSELF DOES ALL THE WORK.  It attracts to and repels from the weaker Bedini coils shaped wave form pulses. The spinning magnet also cuts through its own flux coil producing energy.

If the Bedini coil itself was powering the spinning magnet the input current draw would be out of sight and the input watt power as well.   Thats not the case here.  Build the device and see for yourself.

As a result maybe we can produce a larger output than input using a large Hi N  number spin magnet.

Thats were I am now. 

Tom
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 17, 2010, 06:23:31 PM
Tried a new setup that is basically the same but uses more wire of a slightly thicker diameter.

Have the wire bunched up so that it is all in the same plane as the magnet.

Results are actually INFERIOR !

I'm not going to work on this one any longer as Tom is much further ahead and i feel like i'm spending time/money for nothing.

I'm thinking we don't even need the magnet so will be experimenting with pulsing coils.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on June 17, 2010, 07:20:51 PM
Mark.

I don't like you anymore !

Just kidding :)

Damn i knew it was too good to be true ...

So, how do i do the proper calculations ?

Oh, and here is a link to the video, i've just put it up so it may take a minute or two to be there i don't know :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7LbB7FWfO4


Thanks Mark, for teaching :)

btw i found this, i think it's what you told me so i will learn it :

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book2/4a.htm

those NEETS books are great, nice one US Navy :)

Gary.

@Deepcut

---

When the current flowing through an inductor continuously reverses itself,
as in the case of an ac source, the inertia effect of the cemf is greater
than with dc. The greater the amount of inductance (L), the greater the
opposition from this inertia effect.

---

Yes, thats it exactly. You know, there is conservation of energy
in the bridge rectifier. So that the AC energy-in is equal to the
DC energy-out, with the appropriate load resistor that maximizes
the DC power calculation (pulses filtered etc.) So by calculating
the DC energy-out correctly, you know the net energy, Then you
use the peak to peak AC voltage to calculate the effective AC coil
resistance...You can either use it in the future or chunk it into the
inductive reactance equation (backwards) to get the inductance
L of the coil. So by going around in a math calculation loop several times
you limit the potetial for errors and mistakes. You get good information
for the future, if you don't change things, and you can do accurate
estimates of how much and what direction to change things if you
want something different.

Hopefully, you will still try to put in place a circuit to see if your motor
can self run. Since your output voltage seems about twice the input.

I swear, that if you do the calculations and measurements correctly
you'll get the correct result. :D

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 18, 2010, 01:38:29 AM
Ye i bought a DPDT switch and a voltage regulator along with the correct resistors so will try to self-run it.

Still not overly-confident with new components, is this the sort of circuit i want to regulate voltage for self-running :

http://www.tkk.fi/Misc/Electronics/circuits/psu_5v.html

Thanks,

Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 18, 2010, 01:54:13 AM
Tom's latest video, he's so clever he has the magnet/axle friction-free !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1v1ykiVuQU&feature=channel


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: FatChance!!! on June 18, 2010, 12:27:04 PM
If it takes no friction when trying to make a device self run, then it's certainly not overunity.
The only real overunity device is one that is able to self run while sustaining an external load, friction included.

Tom's latest video, he's so clever he has the magnet/axle friction-free !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1v1ykiVuQU&feature=channel


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: Bruce_TPU on June 18, 2010, 01:09:09 PM
If it takes no friction when trying to make a device self run, then it's certainly not overunity.
The only real overunity device is one that is able to self run while sustaining an external load, friction included.

FatChance, FatChance.  Your definition does NOT hold water, I am sorry to say.  FRICTION is not a prerequisite to OU.  More Wattage out, than Wattage in.  DC vs. DC, the output smoothed with a cap.  This is the true test.  Tom shows this but is careful not to go proclaiming it.  If a unit is self running, sustaining itself, it is ridiculous to say that it must have friction to prove anything.  Magnetic bearings is what Steorn Used for their E-Orbo.  So I guess no OU there? 

Please less typing and more building...  I am waiting to see your replication, pls.  Of anything.

Have a good day!

Bruce
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 18, 2010, 01:54:51 PM
Ye FC !

What on earth were you smoking when you wrote that  ?


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 18, 2010, 02:05:34 PM
I'm wondering how this setup would compare to an SSG for battery-charging ?

I learnt a lot about batteries when i was doing my SSG on the monopole3 group but i never really understood how their COP calculations worked i just stuck my figures into their spreadsheet that they make available.

I have a 6V battery which is at 6.19V which means it is at sulphation point, there is a handy chart half way down this page :

http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html

If i charge the battery from this device i know the energy input taken but how do i calculate what's gone into the battery ?

My battery is 6V @ 4.5Ah so can do 27W for an hour (i think this is right).

So, if it gets charged from 6.19V to a fully-charged state of 6.3V does that mean the power that's gone in is 1.1*4.5 = 4.95W ?


Thanks,

Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: FatChance!!! on June 18, 2010, 02:32:01 PM
If a unit is self running, sustaining itself, it is ridiculous to say that it must have friction to prove anything.
Friction itself is proof of nothing. But I told you the obvious. If a device cannot handle any small load, e.g friction,
then it can't possible sustain itself in closed due to all other losses involved in such a scenario.

Magnetic bearings is what Steorn Used for their E-Orbo.  So I guess no OU there? 
There's no proof of any overunity from the E-Orbo except the unverified claims of the Steorn crew.
Omnibus own replication does not qualify as proof yet due to the lack of unbiased verification.

What on earth were you smoking when you wrote that  ?
None, perhaps I'm just a sane guy that can see through all the smoke and confusion when there is
claims of overunity. So far I have never been wrong. But I do hope I'm wrong this time.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 18, 2010, 03:56:47 PM
FC.

Tom didn't devise a friction-free magnet/shaft assembly because the device couldn't handle the friction.

He devised the assembly to maximise the RPM.

I hope that clarifies things.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 18, 2010, 09:42:14 PM
FatChance, thanks for your help on the self-running.

The closest voltage-regulator i could buy is this one :

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet2/a/0s922lq6p7gwsc2hhzx6z4e3pl3y.pdf

I bought this rocker-switch (DPDT version) to switch between supplies :

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=2365

Plus i got the right capacitors/resistors to provide a 9V output according to this formula :

Vout = 1.25V(1+(R2/R1))+IR2

I'm sitting down tonight to try and make the circuit.


Thanks,

Gary.

Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 19, 2010, 12:00:21 AM
OK the voltage-regulator circuit works and i had fun making it but ... no self-runner :( 

Not even with a 1000uF/35V cap.

The upshot is that you learn electronics whilst trying to achieve your goal i suppose.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: FatChance!!! on June 19, 2010, 05:01:30 PM
Apparent COP = 15.0144/0.6678 = 22.48 !
This was your initial report on calculated COP. Seemed very nice.
It's really hard to make measurement errors giving a COP of 22.

OK the voltage-regulator circuit works and i had fun making it but ... no self-runner :( 
Not even with a 1000uF/35V cap.
And there is no self runner, even though you seemed to have COP 22.  :o

My only question is: Where did you miss out in your wattage measurements? ???

If the difference between input/output is COP 22 then I really want to know
how you performed your measurements in detail?
You must have measured something 22 times wrong, to small or to big. How's it possible?
Can you please take new measurements by the assist of someone else qualified in the field?

I hope you still have the energy and goal for overunity research. Good going!!!
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 19, 2010, 05:43:20 PM
Thanks FC.

You may have missed a few posts, MScoffman explained why the COP was not 22 a few posts back because, although i was using Ohm's Law, ie; the resitance of the coil, to calculate the current, apparently the resistance of the coil measured in it's AC domain is not the same once it has been rectified to DC because of Inductive Reactance. So there's the error !

I'm now thinking perhaps transforming the DC output so the voltage drops but the current rises might do it but i have to check the numbers.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on June 19, 2010, 08:36:56 PM
@deepcut;

This is your engineering conscience speaking...
 "Keeping you on the straight and narrow and away
 from unnecessary developments in anti-grav." :D

---

Don't give up...The series regulator does an admirable job...except
that it is not efficient. It acts like an intelligent resistor, it produces
the correct voltage on the output by throwing away input power.
And another bad thing it dissipates that power in itself, so it requires
a worst case heat sink to work correctly. For example. Regulator in is
10volts in at 10ma = 100mW you throw away 50mW as heat, so you
have 5Volts at 10ma = 50mW. Note that the current is always nearly
the same for both input and output. That's how a series regulator is
supposed to work. Simple, low parts count, inexpensive and not efficient.

---

There are three ways to build a power conserving voltage converter.
Especially if you ve any kind of toroid capability. Any old toroid core
should work and you can wind this with plastic insulated hookup wire.

1) Use your voltage regulator to build a (boost) bucking voltage
converter by using a toroid as the inductor. This circuit is described
in the Application note Document for the series voltage regulator
you are using.

or

2) Use your toroid as a pulse AC transformer. Try 12 turn winding on primary
and 6 on the secondary. The primary connects to the motor coil output.
Have some extra lead length so you can adjust the number of turns from
instrument readings under load. These turns counts are on the low side,
so the transformer inductance will be on the low side, but it will demo
things so you can adjust correctly.

or

3) Switch a capacitor between the DC output and another
capacitor approximately twice that size on the input. The motor
itself should be capable of supplying you the "clock" signal to do
this. Adjust the capacitors.

---

You may be chasing your tail: Ie. getting closer and closer to unity
gain, but these circuits are not that complex, so you should not
be wasting your time. You should be able out read out the efficiency
now and then.

:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 20, 2010, 03:46:02 AM
Thanks Mark.

I think i'll try the transformer route first. May as well do something while i'm waiting for neon-sign transformers and true sine-wave inverters !


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 27, 2010, 11:40:55 PM
OK, my first try at transforming the output and i'm having problems.

When Mark says the primary winding is connected to the motor coil output i am assuming this is the non-rectified output, as it's an AC pulse transformer.

But once i connect the primary winding to the motor coil output i am creating a short-circuit so the magnet stops rotating ?

I put a diode between one motor-coil/primary-winding connection but the magnet still won't spin.

How is this short-circuit problem gotten around ?


Thanks,

Gary.


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 28, 2010, 06:41:28 PM
OK it was just bad contacts !

I have 12 turns on primary and 6 on secondary but voltage isn't lowering.

Will play with it some more tonight.


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: mscoffman on June 28, 2010, 09:49:05 PM
OK it was just bad contacts !

I have 12 turns on primary and 6 on secondary but voltage isn't lowering.

Will play with it some more tonight.


Gary.

@Gary

You need to load the transformer secondary down. Like it
would be if it was feeding the motor's input...Without a load
the transformer windings look like a capacitor from primary
to secondary and high frequency pulse pass right through this
cap. As you load things the primary and secondary should start
to have different voltages.!?  You can always take winding off the
secondary...but wait till you can load things down some. AC
RMS scale is not the best scale for pulses. A scope or a DC
bridge before a DC DVM is a better choice. As you can see the
transformer windings can be used to adjust around impedance matching
problems - (hopefully) with some degree of energy efficiency.

If you continue to use the series voltage regulator (which I don't
recommend) you need output voltage +3VDC as input or it will begin
to not regulate properly...I'd wait on this till you get some OU.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 29, 2010, 12:10:37 AM
Thanks Mark.

I ended up watching two brilliant films tonight so didn't continue.

I'll do it with a load tomorrow and no regulator.


Thanks,

Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on June 29, 2010, 05:01:53 PM
Did a little experiment today.

With induction, the flux path crossing the coil wire at 90 deg gives maximum induction.

Looking at how Tom's device is setup, nearly fifty percent of the wire is around the ends of the magnet, where i assume there is  lot less flux crossing the wire and therefore wasted wire/electricity.

Here's a pic where i've outlined what i think are areas of waste :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/wastedwire.bmp

So i thought, if i wind wire around a circular strip that is the same width as the magnet then ALL of the wire gets a full flux effect and therefore more energy output. Another edded benefit would be that, because the strip's width is small compared to the circumference of the coil-former in the above setup then you get more turns for a given length of wire therefore more induction.

Here's a picture of the new winding/magnet assembly :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/tightwind.bmp

So, having made the new assembly and unwound/rewound some wire (3.5 hours !) i hooked it up to the multimeter and ran it.

I got 0.032 VDC :( :( :(

What's wrong with my theory, it sounded good in my head !


Thanks,

Gary.





Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: TinselKoala on December 03, 2010, 03:42:56 AM
Well...it's an old thread, but you brought it up in another thread...so...did you ever figure it out?

The links to the images appear to be dead, but from your words I think you are thinking correctly...but your coil seems to be behaving more like a "CEMF cancelling" or noninductive or "bifilar hairpin" wound coil....are your windings strictly in the same direction, or did you reverse direction halfway through?

That's just my guess, if you have indeed designed the magnetic circuit properly. The point is to get the maximum _rate of change_ of the perpendicular component ... E=-d(phi)/dt. Has your new geometry somehow reduced the rate at which the field changes across the conductors, even though you have improved the magnetic coupling?
Just another wild guess.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on December 03, 2010, 05:02:31 AM
Maybe it has reduced the change rate because the flux is always moving through the coil i dunno, but the magnetic poles are alternating coz it's diametric so ...

i upped a new pic, i no longer have the frame but you can see the concept :

http://qvision.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/tightwind.jpg


Gary.
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: TinselKoala on December 03, 2010, 07:53:53 AM
The magnet is the shiny thing inside the white cylinder, and the dark stick is its axle, about which it rotates? (a rosewood chopstick?)
I can't quite tell from the picture, but if the magnet is polled on the ends, facing towards and away from the viewer, then that's the problem: you are rotating the magnet around its axis, so the flux in the coil core isn't changing, no matter how fast you rotate the magnet. You should turn the magnet 90 degrees to the axle, so the core piece is swept first by the N pole and then by the S pole as the magnet is spun. Then the flux in the core will be changing at the maximum rate and the voltage should go up. Even better would be to bend the core around further into a good "C" and have the magnet spinning in the gap, bringing its poles alternately near each of the ends of the "C".
Title: Re: GENERATOR- YOU DO THE IN/OUT POWER MATH
Post by: DeepCut on December 03, 2010, 01:02:55 PM
I said in the post the magnet is diametrically magnetised, along the length of the cylinder.

So my thinking was that if the wire is wrapped around a rectangular strip and that strip was then bent around the path of the magnet, you would be maximising the induction.

I think the wire i used was too thick and there were not enough turns on there, i may take another look at that sometime.

*EDIT ADD*

Ye the magnet is the shiny thing inside the white plumbers pipe section. The axle is made from carbon rod.

*/EDIT ADD*


Gary.