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Author Topic: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.  (Read 10377 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Maybe the subject is misleading, but I have tried different approaches to generators that does not need input energy to generate power out.

Here in this thread I want to display an idea that might seem like the obvious solution, but I do not have knowledge to say if this claims below is true or not. So please come with inputs and comments.

If you have a wheel with many containers filled with air - looks like a ferris wheel (See picture below). If this wheel is under weater, the water will provide more pressure at the bottom than the top. This will force the air inside the containers to compress more at the bottom than the top, so the volume will shrink as the container goes deeper and deeper. It is obvius that work has been carried out on one side from the top to the bottom. On the other hand, the opposite work has been carried out on the other side, so no net energy has been carried out. That means it takes no extended energy to rotate the wheel except fighting against the water - the wheel can be designed to easily rotate in water, so we do not take this loss into account.

The containers can be modified to have a flexible membrane on one side so the volume can change easily. This means that the membrane will move in and out for every revolution of the wheel. We still do not apply energy to rotate the wheel.

So then we attach a dynamo on each membrane so the dynamo can run and generate electricity as the membrane push and pulls a magnet through a coil - the dynamo.

Even if we load the coils with a light bulb, the membrane will still move in and out to pull the magnet through the coils as the wheel rotate - and we still do not apply energy to rotate the wheel. Or do we????

I have thought that if we take energy out of all coils at the same time, which we must, I believe the voltage must be rectified first so the energy doesnt cancels out due to the +30 degree phase shift between each next coil in this case. Left side versus right side will without being rectified be 180 degrees delayed which means energy cancellation.

So what happens when we load all the coils?
First, the membranes will not move as much, but they will still move due to the pressure difference. The energy we can take out is the difference in force the water does on the membranes at the top and the bottom, times the distance the membranes are traveling in and out.

Say we have 12 membranes as in the picture. Each membrane are 10cm^2 and they travel 10cm p-p. The wheel is 1m in diameter.

The energy for one membrane to produce per revolution:

100N x 0,1m/2 x 0,7071 = 3,53J

Energy for all 12 is therfor 3,53J x 12 = 42,4J or 42,4Ws

Then we have to convert this energy into electric energy. We have loss as resistance in the coils. In fact we can short circuit the coils and generate heat without doing any extra work on the wheel!!

How absurd does that sound - heating up water without energy input? But it still seems so obvious it can work this way. Because the wheel would spin just as easy with or without change in the membrane excursion - under no load!

Any comments are welcome. I cannot see the reason why this wheel isn't OU. Can you?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2010, 08:59:20 PM »
BTW: The coils do not move back and forth, but only follow the rotation.

Vidar

Offline brian334

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2010, 10:11:14 PM »
Nice Drawing,
What makes the tanks get lighter at the bottom
and heavier at the top?
It look like at the top the tanks are to lite to sink,
and at the bottom the tanks are to heavy to float-up.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2010, 10:11:14 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2010, 10:39:06 PM »
Nice Drawing,
What makes the tanks get lighter at the bottom
and heavier at the top?
It look like at the top the tanks are to lite to sink,
and at the bottom the tanks are to heavy to float-up.
It is just a simple drawing that shows that the tanks volume at the bottom is less then on the top. This wheel is not suppose to rotate due to unbalanced wheel principle, but rather see the posibilities to use gravity and water pressure to run small generators that is powered by the membranes that must go in or out of the volume behind it in order to power magnet rods inside a coil. The mass is the same in all tanks, but the volume of air inside them are different due to the movement of the membranes that is pressed in by the water pressure at the bottom, and released at the water surface.

I simply couldn't draw all positions of the membrane, so I took a short cut in the drawing - just to be misunderstood as the result ;D.

Hope you have got the idea on how it is suppose to work now :)

Vidar

Offline Cherryman

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 11:49:57 PM »
Hi,

I think it has possibilities, i draw a concept of  something a little similar a while back ago.

This one turns a wheel with water inside, uses the buoyancy, the magnets will float/sink along linear pick up coils

The animation is not perfect it misses a few frames, but you get the idea.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2ppg46w.gif
http://i45.tinypic.com/33m4qrn.jpg


The idea behind it is, i think it takes less energy to turn a wheel, with a liquid and floating/sinkink parts INSIDE it compared to the energy provided by the object inside the liquid because of gravity an buoyancy will try to float or sink.

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 11:49:57 PM »
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Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2010, 12:10:13 AM »
Low-Q

 Cool! So far I like what I see. At this time I am breaking for evening meal and then back to work. I haven't tried anything like it, so I will have to look a bit closer to see the possibilities.

Alan

Offline Rapadura

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2010, 02:01:43 AM »
So, it's a underwater perpetuum mobile? A wheel that rotates with no energy applied?

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2010, 02:01:43 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2010, 08:05:01 AM »
Rapadura. IF it is OU, the coils can power the wheel with an electric motor.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2010, 12:47:46 PM »
I did finally figure out why this motor will not work.

If I load the coils, the back emf will hold back the motion of the moving magnets. This "break" will delay the movement so the point where the magnet is farthest out of the coil (Where the volume in the tank is smallest) will no longer be at the bottom of the wheel, but pass the bottom. My guess is that this new point is located approperiate to get more buoyancy on one side which will counterforce the rotation.
Very frustrating, but I had some how taken into account that this idea was nothing but another learning by mistake. :)

Br.

Vidar

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2010, 12:47:46 PM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2010, 09:33:12 PM »
Also it's my feeling that the wheel would move so slow that it would be hard to get any current out of the setup.  If it was very large you might get some power from the wheel itself turning a geared up generator but most things moving under water have so much resistance to movement that it would not likely work out to be anything useful.
   Still I think you basic idea is something to think about.  Any time we can take two forces in nature and work them against each other there is a possiblity for generating power.  Things like gravity versus bouyancy as well as any other two or more such forces would seem to lend themselves to generating power.

Offline sparks

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2010, 11:04:03 PM »
   Most of the damage done to the Titanic was when it hit the bottom doing 45 knots.  Instead of allowing your membranes to move say you take on some water at the surface.  The right side containers begin to sink and gravity accelerates them to six oclock.  This sinking is resisted by the wheel load which acts as a parachute more or less.  At the 6oclock position enough pressure is supplied by a compressor driven by the wheel to eject the water taken on board on the surface.  You blow the ballast tanks.  Now the left cyclinders float towards the surface driving the wheel.

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Re: Gain kinetic energy without changing the potetial energy in advace.
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2010, 11:04:03 PM »
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