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Author Topic: Vector based magnet motor idea  (Read 10959 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Vector based magnet motor idea
« on: April 09, 2010, 10:29:17 PM »
Hi,

I accidently came up with an idea that might be worth giving an eyeball. I was looking at the kids playing with a seesaw (I think I found the word for it now)

So I thought: How to make it motorized by attaching big magnets on each end, both magnets with same polarity up, but under this seesaw, there is a very big round disc A with north up on one side and south up on the other side. If we now turn this big disc magnet, the seesaw will tilt back and forth according to what side of the tilt that is repelling and attracting the big disc magnet. But what force is preventing me to rotat this wheel? It seems obvious that I do not have to apply any force at all to tilt this seesaw up and down because the net force in repel and attraction equalize in one complete round so no energy have to be applied to it.

So I thought further: What if we load this tilt seesaw with a fixed coil next to each magnet in the seesaw and harness the energy by letting the magnets pass this coil up and down? Will it still be forceless to turn the big disc magnet? Isn't the repelling and attraction forces still equalizing to zero net energy requirement? Isn't the magnets in the seesaw only working in a vector 90 degrees on the rotating disc magnet? As far as I know, the forces are within the magnets, but the velocity/movement is in 90 degrees off axis, which means no energy input required, but still energy out!

So my next thought was: What if this is it?? I instantly felt a pain in my stomach...

Look at the drawings below to see this idea - in a smaller version
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 11:56:25 PM by Low-Q »

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Vector based magnet motor idea
« on: April 09, 2010, 10:29:17 PM »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2010, 01:05:07 AM »
It could be possible to the seesaw springloaded so it will oscillate at a gived RPM on the rotating disc magnet. That will increase the generated output hopefully without affecting the rotating disc magnet.

BTW! THE SEESAW IS NOT ROTATING. IT IS FIXED WITH A HINGE :) :)

Please look into this folks. If you do not fully understand the consept, please ask. If you understand it more well than I do, please correct my thoughts.

This idea could also be applied to a vertically aligned mill under water. The difference in weight of water between the surface and the bottom can force a given volume of air inside a cylinder to decrease and increase, as a piston made of a magnet moves in and out of a cylinder with a coil winded around it. The water pressure will make sure the pistons will move back and forth depending if the piston is by the surface or at the bottom. Nothing except the water will slow down this mill. Regardless of the load on each coil, the mill will rotate just as easy - though quite slow...but it would be OU as well I guess.

Vidar

Offline Lilhawk

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 01:27:06 AM »
I don't think it will work

when red comes around to the lowside of the seesaw you say it will go up....but that side of the saw has a very strong attraction to blue...and the other side of the saw is too high (away) from disc to help break the lowside away from the disc....so that means you are trying to rotate red on the disc into the red on the low seesaw causing a counter force push against the disc before it even gets to seesaw

 

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2010, 01:27:06 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2010, 01:47:40 AM »
The seesaw is balanced and is totally free. So when the red approach, there is no weight to be moved up and away. Besides the blue is approaching the other magnet. Further, in one complete revolution the sum of all forces are zero anyways. So zero energy is spent in one complete revolution. Any problem can also be solved with a second disc magnet above the seesaw - if it is a problem with distance.

Offline Rapadura

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2010, 02:44:38 AM »
I'm glad more people are having ideas with seesaws! That's good!

I think this idea will not work the way it is configured, because there's no force that makes the disc rotate. The disc is static, and will not move if it don't receive an external force.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2010, 02:44:38 AM »
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Offline Lilhawk

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2010, 03:14:13 AM »
did a little experiment with some magnets and it confirms (to me)  that there will be a counter force added to the disc
addition of second disc to help...will balance the system...at every point...no OU.

I'm getting lazy here ...i usually add diagrams to show my points

lets put a number to this say... +25lbs of pull between red(lowseesawside) and blue(disc)...to break this and let the seesaw go up u will need ...half of red to be under the seesaw(-12.5 lbs) and half the blue as well (+12.5) ...but there is no way to get magnets to that position without adding counter forces to the horizontal disc axis.

Offline Lilhawk

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 03:20:29 AM »
Rap....LowQ is saying with this design that the up and down of the seesaw has no effect on the disc .....so it would take hardly any energy to turn it...sorta like a cogfree generator, the extra energy would be in the seesaw action.

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2010, 03:20:29 AM »
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Offline Rapadura

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2010, 03:24:48 AM »
So the idea is to use an electric motor to rotate the disc?  ???

Sorry if I can't get the idea...

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2010, 08:36:52 AM »
The energy required to make red part to escape from the seesaw was gained when the red was going IN TOWARDS the seesaw. These forces are perfectly equal and cancels out - no matter how hard it is to escape. The energy required to turn the disc will therefore be zero - even if cogging will occour. Cogging isn't loss, but a none linear force per distance. The energy induced in the coil will run the disc by using the AC pulses from the coils which ofcourse is automaticly syncronized. The placement of drive coils must be timed to make the rotation ofcourse. The motor to turn the disc is not displayed. I will make a drawing soon. And explain further. Thanks for all input so far.

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2010, 08:36:52 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2010, 01:23:04 PM »
Here is a new drawing of the motor which runs the disc magnets. If I am right about the zero energy needed to rotate the discs, there will be no, or very little, back EMF from the drive coils back to the generator coils. So the generator coils can supply the motor with the small amount needed to make a selfrunner.
All this said, I cannot claim OU, but I cannot see where the fault should be.

In the picture below I have tried to think correctly, but even if the drawing shouldn't be correct according to the AC voltage generated versus the motor magnets and motor coil configuration, I hope you see the picture of my thoughts. Remember the seesaw magnet will pass the generator coil twice for each revolution if the disc magnet :)

Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2010, 01:29:55 PM »
Some further thaugts:

The more the seesaw generator is loaded the less it will seesaw. Ideally the seesaw should stop completely by short circuit the coils. However it WILL generate energy, but the question remains if the energy is more or less than that is required to run the disc... Maybe my whish is too strong, so I get blind - that has happen to me before ;)

Again thanks for all "counterforced" feedback (Even if I try to explane them away ;D)

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2010, 01:29:55 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2010, 12:43:11 AM »
[A author=Lilhawk link=topic=9028.msg237047#msg237047 date=1270862053]
did a little experiment with some magnets and it confirms (to me)  that there will be a counter force added to the disc
addition of second disc to help...will balance the system...at every point...no OU.

I'm getting lazy here ...i usually add diagrams to show my points

lets put a number to this say... +25lbs of pull between red(lowseesawside) and blue(disc)...to break this and let the seesaw go up u will need ...half of red to be under the seesaw(-12.5 lbs) and half the blue as well (+12.5) ...but there is no way to get magnets to that position without adding counter forces to the horizontal disc axis.
[/quote]I did som e experiments too. I placed a lots of small neomagnets n-s-n-s-n-s-n-s..etc around a round housing that belongs to an old electric motor. The housing is magnetic steel, and there is a ballbearing in the shaft that have very low friction. Now, I had a magnet in my hand also, and tried to break the spin with it by approaching the rotating housing with all the magnets on it. It seems that the harder I hold the handheld magnet, the less it will viberate accordingly to the shifting polarity on the rotor, the longer the rotor take to stop. If I loosen up a bit, and let the magnet in my hand viberate more, the spinning breaks down faster.

Anyway, if anyone didn't understand the explanation, the bottom line is that the more the seesaw are free to move, the more it will break the rotation of the disc magnet. That is not because the seesaw magnet doesn't have the same distance to the disc magnet in repelling mode and attraction mode, but rather that the force applied between the seesaw and the disc isn't 90 degrees. That again is because there is a mass in the seesaw that does not respond instantly, but is delayed due to inertia. This means the more the seesaw are free to move, the more counterforceed the disc magnet is.

So inertia was the problem here. But what do you guys think if I put a spring on the seesaw and make a resonant system that is oscillating between inertia and tension at a given resonant frequency? Will then the seesaw idea here work better?

Vidar

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2010, 02:06:30 AM »

Steven Kundel has worked for several years with concepts which seem quite similar to your own.

http://www.kundelmagnetics.com/

Perhaps you could establish a productive dialogue.


TS

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Vector based magnet motor idea
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2010, 05:48:17 PM »
Thanks TechStuf. I will contact him shortly. I think we are on the same track. I have seen his videos :).

I have been thinking on the inertia thing with the seesaw generator. I suddenly though about mass versus magnetic force. I am a bit comfused now what force REALLY stops the disc magnet so quick when the seesaw can have max amplitude. Is it magnetism or inertia of the seesaw weight put into motion - or maybe both? It gave me a little more hope that this will be one approach to OU.

Vidar

 

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