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Author Topic: Self running coil?  (Read 304373 times)

LightRider

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #285 on: March 24, 2010, 01:43:08 AM »
Hi LightRider,

thanks for doing the tests and posting your result.

Do you have a scope?... if so, can you take a picture or post a scope shot of the gate pulse (without OPTO) that gave you the positive result and the pulse of the OPTO'ed one.

I would like to see what each form looks like.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Here is a short video that appears to demonstrate what gotoluc himself experienced.
For this video the 4N35 OPTO was disconnected and
the signal generator was directly feeding the gate (square wave)
the oscilloscope shows the gate pulse (square wave - 5v p tp p)
and the measurement of the IRF640 drain (this helps for the optimum adjustment)

note that my knowledge and experience in the field of electronics is limited,
these experiments are done for fun only.
If you find errors, which is likely, please let me know.

Thanks,
LightRider

Video at:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LRCan1?feature=mhw4

sorry for quality ... and no sound ...!   :-\


gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #286 on: March 24, 2010, 02:31:18 AM »
Thanks LightRider for taking the time to make a video demo of your setup.

Do you have a conclusion as to what is going on in your experiment?

Thanks for sharing

Luc

gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #287 on: March 24, 2010, 02:41:58 AM »
@all

I can explain any of those scope shots in Coil test #11, #12
video except the weird waveform in scope shot #1.
just ask if interested.

Yes Mark :) please don't hold back.

@gotoluc

An interesting experiment would be to get some of Bedini's R60
welding rods to make a square metal core for pickup coil. Set one
end of the core parallel to the base of the plastic spool. Then stick
the magnet stack to that base and place the other end of the core
to near the toroid. The core mag circuit will conduct the magnetic
field up to the toroid. Nothing should happen because of the
strength of the magnets, but it still might.?.That is - no cutting
of lines or reduction of field strength = no signal from the pickup
coil.

:S:MarkSCoffman

I'm not sure I follow or understand this Mark. However before making changes or adding, I would like to confirm if the energy is coming form the Generator.

Would you agree with NextGen67 that if I use a mosfet with lower input capacitance and it still performs like the IRF640 that this would be an indication that the extra energy was not coming from the Generator?

Thanks for sharing

Luc

LightRider

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #288 on: March 24, 2010, 02:56:56 AM »
Thanks LightRider for taking the time to make a video demo of your setup.

Do you have a conclusion as to what is going on in your experiment?

Thanks for sharing

Luc

A conclusion... not at this point.
Experience seems to show that with the 4N35 no effects outside the ordinary is seen.
Assuming the leak in the IRF640 is more than likely.
Someone with more experience will probably have to test this hypothesis.
Observation...
For the effect to takes place, the gate must be drive a minimum voltage.
The frequency and duty cycle seems to greatly influence this variable.
The frequency seems to be close to 35-40 khz ... (regardless of certain variables).
That's it for now... more to come.

The experience of Mr. JLN also seems intriguing road.

Thanks,
LightRider

gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #289 on: March 24, 2010, 06:02:01 AM »
Thanks for the reply LightRider :)

With the IRF640 I can have the gate voltage at 10vpp and still get the effect but as you say the bests results are when lower voltages are used. For me the best results are in the 7vpp range.

@everyone
Here is an interesting scope shot using a 2SK2806-01 mosfet I had salvaged some time ago from power supply I think.

I'm using 12.88vdc as input and the green probe is across my generator input and the yellow is across a 100 Ohm carbon resistor which is in series on the ground side of the generator input.

Interesting to see the sine wave across the resistor. I wonder if it's the generators internal components resonating? At this setting it's sending back -.000043 at 12.88vdc. Also, take note of how low of voltage I can drive this mosfet!... don't think it's not driving the gate as I checked and it is. Since the pickup coil has 0.22vdc on the 1K Ohm load.

This is the lowest RMS voltage (156mv) across the 100 Ohm resistor I got so far with it sending back energy.

What do you make of this?

Luc

ADDED

I added another scope shot where I added capacitance to the toroid coil to lower resonating frequency so now the pickup coil now has .35vdc on the 1K Ohm load (twice the power) without raising the 150mv RMS across the 100 Ohm current shunt and still sending back -.000006
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 06:54:54 AM by gotoluc »

NextGen67

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #290 on: March 24, 2010, 12:20:01 PM »
<...>
ADDED

I added another scope shot where I added capacitance to the toroid coil to lower resonating frequency so now the pickup coil now has .35vdc on the 1K Ohm load (twice the power) without raising the 150mv RMS across the 100 Ohm current shunt and still sending back -.000006

What do you get if you take out the pickup coil in the above test (still -.000006 or less or more), and how does the scope shot looks like then?

--
NextGen67

gyulasun

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #291 on: March 24, 2010, 02:49:47 PM »
Quote
....
 Also, take note of how low of voltage I can A this mosfet!... don't think it's not driving the gate as I checked and it is. Since the pickup coil has 0.22vdc on the 1K Ohm load.

This is the lowest RMS voltage (156mv) across the 100 Ohm resistor I got so far with it sending back energy.

What do you make of this? 

Hi Luc,

In your 2SK2806 MOSFET the socalled Vth gate-source threshold voltage is about 1/3 of that of the IRF640  i.e. between 1 and 2V only.  This means an advantage in input power wrt the IRF640 (the need of lower gate-source voltage means lower input power).
Here is the data sheet: http://skory.gylcomp.hu/alkatresz/2sk2806.pdf


Quote
ADDED

I added another scope shot where I added capacitance to the toroid coil to lower resonating frequency so now the pickup coil now has .35vdc on the 1K Ohm load (twice the power) without raising the 150mv RMS across the 100 Ohm current shunt and still sending back -.000006

Did you add the capacitance in parallel with the toroidal coil?

Did you have any capacitance in the pickup coil circuit to make it resonant at the toroidal coil's lower resonant frequency?  The two freqs have to be the same to get the most output.  Hint: at the best setup as you wrote above (150mV across 100Ohm etc), try to place capacitors in series with the 1KOhm load to reach a resonant pickup coil situation (or as Mark suggested, connect it in parallel and use an audio transformer to step down the output power from the pickup coil), to approximate best a matched condition between the pickup circuit as a whole and the 1k load.

Thanks,  Gyula

gyulasun

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #292 on: March 24, 2010, 02:51:20 PM »
double post

mscoffman

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #293 on: March 24, 2010, 03:21:07 PM »
Ok since I was asked: On the test #11 and 12# Scope pictures

Waveform Picture #1 – The weird one I don’t it looks like dual frequency,
the driving one and the resonant one are fighting or combining with each
other. Not very important.

Waveform Picture #2 – clipping of the top of the pickup coil voltage signal
due to the rectifier diode turning on. If you connected the bridge rectifier
as a bridge rather than using one diode from the bridge then both the top
and the bottom of the signal would be clipped. The way to look at it is the
coil signal is pushing up on the cap voltage and the cap under load is
pushing back on the signal squashing it back down. This shows that the
load resistor and the coil impedance is (badly) mismatched. If the bridge
was connected then only 1.4Vdc of the coil signal (squarewave)  would
be  showing that is .7 volts pedestal +| -.7| pedestal whipped around
by silicon diodes in the bridge. With the bridge, both sides of the signals
polarity try to push the cap voltage up rather then just one. The bridge
would be more efficient than a single diode…So connecting the full bridge
would improve efficiency of rectifying the pickup energy.  Signal total =
0.42Vdc pp peak-to-peak.

Waveform #4 – unloaded, there is no load resistor pulling the cap voltage
down. So the cap charges up to 11.2Vdc revealing the full pickup coil
waveform. Only a very small part of the signal pushes up on the cap
voltage. *No work is being done* by the pickup coil – so there is no
impedance mismatch….But now one sees a *voltage phase shift*
occurring between the driving (clock)signal and the pickup voltage.
What do we know about AC signals; When no work is being done the
voltage waveform and the current waveform are 180 degrees out
of phase. It be hard to see the current waveform when thing are
disconnected but we could see it with a one megohm load or something.
When an impedance mismatch favors more load the voltage and current
waveform will be 0 degrees out from each other or in phase and closely
aligned to the coil drive phase because work is being done. Note that
the signal phase *leads* the drive phase. I hope that means inductive
reactance but it may mean capacitive reactance. This tells “How” our
two coils are coupled to one another.

 
Waveform #x-
A little bit further on in the thread. We have waveforms from the
2SK2806-01 mosfet. Notice that the waveforms there are less flat
ie. less digital…Most likely this is due to the higher final drive
impedance of that mosfet so this means the IRF604 is a preferable
transistor. Generally that ST transistor is very newly designed so
will take advantage of the latest in mosfet design tech.

I want to correct the above as pointed out in gyulason. The gate
voltage is much better on this transistor...which may explain the
difference in output waveforms. So the 2SK2806-01 has preferable
gate characteristic...the Rd's is better but Cissy is still too high.

---

It's important to note. When you couple an generator to a load
*The maximum power is transferred between them when the
impedance (resistance) of the source and load are equal to
each other.* 
Note that power = continuous  or instantaneous
energy.

So this is why I tend to emphasise impedance matching in overunity
projects. Mechanical impedance is exactly the same way. If we simply
use ballast resistors the energy in the resistor is converted to heat
and lost. As long as we are not converting it to heat it is either staying
in the circuit or coming back to the circuit as flyback energy...(a
beneficial part of the conservation of energy law).

:S:MarkSCoffman
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 04:43:38 PM by mscoffman »

mscoffman

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #294 on: March 24, 2010, 04:07:50 PM »

Reason being the IRF640 needs quite some energy to actually switch it ON, so *if* some of this energy triples through the circuit, it will be amplified and in such a way *could* be responsible for the cap 'charge up'... However a replacement mosfet (STS2DNF30L) for example which requires *way* less energy to switch on, hence would *also* cause *less* energy triple trough the circuit... Now *when* the STS2DNF30L results in a *better* cap 'charge up' then the IRF640 it can be argued leakage is not the cause.

On the other hand, if the STS2DNF30L shows a cap 'charge up' that is far lower then when he used the IRF640, it can be argued that indeed the hidden leakage could be responsible for the cap 'charge up'.

Sounds plausible ?

--
NextGen67

Yes, this is correct. I am hoping to get a mosfet transistor that requires
*less drive voltage* and shows spiffy ie not sluggish Coil resonant effects.
Our mosfet gate drive voltage at ~11Vpp is too high in my opinion. We
are feeding our transistor too heavily for what it is doing and it's
passing through that power. Ok, boost/buck converter using the
parasitic inductance of the long clip leads...I don't care how it
accomplishes this task of raising it's bulk input voltage... If we feed it
less it's going to have less available.  The combination of lower drive
and lower mosfet capacitance is much lower possible energy pass
through potential, Therefore if the capacitor still gains our gain must be
occurring from overunity. Unfortunately light rider's 4N35
opto doesn't suggest this. With the 4n35 we only feed the transistor
with energy we already have in the circuit. Things seem to get sluggish.

The reason I like the pick-up coil funding the gate energy is that; The main
toroid coil is going to take care of itself. Energy put out will reasonate
back in plus maybe some overunity gain. Only if the pickup coil is coupled
to main coil unit for unit will we never be able to accomplish anything.
As we will push down the gate energy required, less will be taken but
still no overunity gain might be present to raise the bulk capacitors.

The other thing is if the transistor wants to see more gate voltage
for it's operation for some reason (maybe I'm not as hot as I think
I am on designing with fet's) we could use that transformer to push
up the gate voltage while we decrease inputted power. This is kind of
a secondary cross check to decrease gate drive power if we have
really succeeded in increasing mosfet input impedance. If we can drive
the transistor at the voltage of the signal generator based in overunity
energy...ie not drawing anymore from bulk. Then the bulk capacitor is going
to charge up in exactly the same way as it did with the signal generator.
We don't really care, at this time, what circuit elements are causing that
bulk voltage increase.

Also, gotoluc could put the 100ohm resistor into the gate circuit
and show that it doesn't effect things there. Then the current
waveform going into the gate of the mosfet could be directly
seen and be measurable. Also reductions or increases with other
transistors would be measurable as a change in current.

:S:MarkSCoffman

NextGen67

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #295 on: March 24, 2010, 04:26:00 PM »
An ALD110800A, requirers very little energy to switch on, has C's next to nothing,
but it's RDS on is at some 500 Ohm if i read the specs correct. Also the max of it is 10Volt.
but well... 0.1 volt threshold is quite something.

I take the slow way, like to see Luc's results between the mentioned Mosfets (or comparable types)...
See the return Cap charge that they can deliver... Pick-up coil I see as secondary to fix it's problem.
Tough Luc's seems just now to got some 350uA (123uW), while still adding a little bit in the bulk Caps.

--
Nextgen67

mscoffman

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #296 on: March 24, 2010, 04:37:53 PM »
Nexgen67,

ALD110800A is not a power transistor...Rds = 500Ohms is
unacceptable if driving a 6ohm coil.


MeggerMan

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #297 on: March 24, 2010, 05:04:02 PM »
@Gotoluc,
Hi,
I've not posted on this forum for over a year I reckon, but your experiment looks very promising.
Have you checked to make sure that no power can be added to the output through the gate of the mosfet?
There is a lot on this thread to read through.
Also I am still not sure if your coils are wound so the 2 coils appose each other, just like in a common mode choke.
In common mode chokes you can have split winding and parallel winding, yours is split.
The fact that your inductance is so high (more than the sum of the two) would indicate these coils are not wire in common mode config but are wired in series.
I have lots of cores to test out this idea with and a dual pulse circuit to allow the pulse current to be made square. (Thanks to Paul Lowrance and his mini orbo pulse circuit).
http://globalfreeenergy.info/2010/03/

Rob

NextGen67

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #298 on: March 24, 2010, 05:31:30 PM »
Nexgen67,

ALD110800A is not a power transistor...Rds = 500Ohms is
unacceptable if driving a 6ohm coil.

I know, that is why I didn't include a data sheet. But just to mention that
*might* everything go well and positive, there are probably some jewels of
mosfets around if we hunt long enough. ;)

Also, luc's above post [ http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8892.msg234171#msg234171 ]

comes to more then about 1/4th already of what is needed to run the circuit...
If I'm correct [its late and my mind is blur], his mosfet there needs 450uW to
operate, and the pick-up is delivering some 123uW... That's not bad already.

EDIT: yes, thought already something is wrong... Think its more then 2,80mW is
needed... In such a case we're far from powering it yet.. To late already, need
to hit the dark room.

--
NextGen67





gyulasun

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #299 on: March 24, 2010, 07:52:04 PM »

...
Also, gotoluc could put the 100ohm resistor into the gate circuit
and show that it doesn't effect things there. Then the current
waveform going into the gate of the mosfet could be directly
seen and be measurable. Also reductions or increases with other
transistors would be measurable as a change in current.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Hi Mark,

But Luc has been putting the 100 Ohm resistor in series into the gate circuit you must have missed that.   He showed actual scope shots already taken directly across the series 100 Ohm, see here the waveforms (click on the quote's link in bold just in next line):

.....
Link to video demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX2nZSOhxfc

1st Shot is Scope probe across Generator input, the other probe across a 100 Ohm resistor in series with Generator ground and coil tuned to send back most energy.

...

It is unusual to place a series resistor into the Ground wire instead of the "hot" gate wire BUT it is equivalent as long as the circuit to be measured is GND independent and the signal generator GND does not meet with the GNDs of any other measuring instruments used. In Luc's setup this is nicely met.  This way Luc solved the problem that his two channel scope inputs have a common GND.

rgds, Gyula