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Author Topic: Self running coil?  (Read 302296 times)

gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #270 on: March 22, 2010, 09:24:42 PM »
I think i can give an explanation for the raising voltage in the cap. 

The tuning with the magnet has to bring the core material *close to* saturation. That's the reason why the magnet must not be too strong, or too close to the core. If the magnet already saturates or over-saturates the core it doesn't work. The magnet drives the core into a non-linear state so that it acts like a rectifier.

Here are more details: http://www.linux-host.org/energy/srect.htm

The pulses going into the gate of the MOSFET are leaving the MOSFET on the other side as AC voltage, because of the gate capacitance. This AC voltage may be rectified by the 'magnetic rectifier' and will increase the cap voltage, if all the other losses are low enough.

Of course, this is no 'free energy'.
It's a well-known effect which was discovered more than 120 years ago...   :-\

(maybe it would be a good idea to read some old books... some things have already been forgotten)

Hi skywatcher,

I replied to your post about the toroid you wound here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8892.msg233678#msg233678  and asked what color the cores were that you used.

Can you let me know please.

Luc

skywatcher

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #271 on: March 22, 2010, 09:34:28 PM »
I replied to your post about the toroid you wound here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8892.msg233678#msg233678  and asked what color the cores were that you used.

They have a gray coating.

Yesterday i made a core from a high-permeability material which is similar to Nanoperm or Metglass. With this core there was a considerable drop in inductance when i attached the magnet. With the N48 magnet it decreased by more than 99%. So i used a much smaller magnet. But also with this coil, i didn't get any remarkable effects. Not even a real resonance. The combined inductance without the magnet was about 400 mH (3 layers of wire).

I think i will not put any further effort into this topic.

mscoffman

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #272 on: March 22, 2010, 09:48:56 PM »
Hi Mags,

Sorry but MarkSCoffman did not mean using the audio transformer to isolate the sig to the FET gate.   He proposed a possible impedance matching with the step down audio transformer to utilize the output power from the pick up coil in the best way for feeding the CMOS 555 with supply voltage.

rgds, Gyula

Exactly Gyula; as the voltage goes down in a 5:1 ratio the current will go up in the
inverse 1:5. The transformer is a power conserving impedance matching function.
A used 56K telephone modem card would have a suitable audio transformer.
Hi fidelity required for 56K. Hoping the transformer is 1:1 and the secondary
winding would have a center tap. There is even a way to use a 1:1 transformer
with no CT center tap to give 2:1 by making both windings into the primary.

The other thing to check is the CMOS NE555 timer chip...One may be able
to build a separate circuit for it where you set all the resistors to 10 times
their previous resistance and divide the capacitor by ten. It may not serve
as well as the commercial circuit board, but it might consume less net power.
You wouldn't want to effect final drive power through it though.

---
Finally, with a similar setup, the observed effect seems to be reproduced.

Input signal (Function generator model : GFG-8019G) @ 39.6 kHz - 8 vpp (square)
the circuit works on a 9v battery.
Adjustments and measurements made with an old 20Mhz Dual Trace Oscilloscope (ET & T 3132)
9.10v in the cap -> goto a maximum 12.10v (when disconnected) in a few seconds and stays there.

(a video is possible if necessary)

...under testing...

LightRider

@LightRider

Excellent, if true. Please, don't repeat errors of the past, use the optoisolator method
to delete added function generator energy early. The asymmetric 4n35 opto signal may
work..It might even make things better. :D. If not, operate the signal generator at
2 x f and run the opto output through a cmos /2 FF flip-flop with circuit energy supply
coming from the bulk capacitor. Please keep us informed with what happens.

Also, what value bulk capacitor are you using?...that will affect energy to voltage
conversion speed.

---


Of course, this is no 'free energy'.
It's a well-known effect which was discovered more than 120 years ago...   :-\

(maybe it would be a good idea to read some old books... some things have already been forgotten)


Don't be too negative skywatcher. Maybe we are intergrating towards unity
gain but maybe we are integrating towards overunity. We have a line of what
looks like overunity and I don't think we should to dismiss it without checking.

Even if we eventually dismiss/accept where the overunity comes from it could
still make an intriguing glass bookend. :)  It'd drive people nuts!

:S:MarkSCoffman

synchro1

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #273 on: March 22, 2010, 09:50:24 PM »
@skywatcher

                  Wrap a thin copper wire around a small section of the toroid. This will act as a flux blocker. Charging this tiny wrap by pulsing, will increase reluctance to saturation just in the tiny area beneath the wrap, blocking the flux path from the magnet to the rest of the toroid. Also, it would help to add a spacer between the magnet and the toroid material. Your dealing with a material of very high permeability, with a million times less reluctance then thin air.  Your first attempts have met with instant and overwhelming saturation. Try to get some control over this effect before you give up. Your magnets are way to strong and too close. Try wrapping a flux blocker coil in between the magnet and the toroid, decrease magnet strength and increase airgap. Try pulsing the blocker wrap at different frequencies pulse widths and power settings. 

gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #274 on: March 22, 2010, 10:01:24 PM »
@Luc,

Could you give me a conclusion?  I need to confirm something... 

Could you remove [as in physically take it away] your pick-up coil for a while and tune your circuit is most optimal state.  Once you have that, place your Pick-up coil back again, but do *not* put a load on it.

If my thinking is correct, your circuit became now in an *de-tuned* state ! - Could you confirm that for me?

Also, you will [easily] be able to bring your circuit back in resonance again, by *lowering* your frequency slightly [I'm not to sure if it is lowering, but I think is it lowering]. - Could you confirm this is also true ?

Now when you place a load on the Pick-up coil [or short circuit it] you should *not* see any negative effects on your circuit as in cap de-charge, or de-tuning effects. - Could you confirm this is also true ? [***]

If you have an extra magnet laying around (such a small round one):  if you have your circuit is perfect tuned state, and you add [stack] the small magnet at the end of the others, your circuit will become *de-tuned* and you can re-tune it back again, by *increasing* the frequency a bit. - Can you confirm this is true ?

Ok, that is it :-)

NextGen67

Hi NextGen67,

here is the next video to test your above questions. Only your last question was not done in the video. I have tried adding a magnet on the opposite end of the toroid before and it has no benefit. Maybe we can look at this later if you want. Anyways, I think we should look at what I have for now to see if it's real before we try other things.

Supply Battery connected to capacitor bank is 12.88vdc

Setup is using signal generator and feeding 3 IRF640 connected in parallel

Tuned for maximum returned current -.000224 @ 38KHz  (with no pickup coil)

Signal generator is at the same settings as test 11 video.

Link to video demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIFJ5o1eqsE

1st Shot is probe across Generator input, other probe across pickup coil (open coil)

2nd Shot is probe across Generator input, other probe across pickup coil, connected to single diode, capacitor and 1K Ohm load

3rd Shot is probe across Generator input, other probe across pickup coil, connected to single diode, capacitor and 1K Ohm load (time base change)

4th Shot is probe across Generator input, other probe across pickup coil, connected to single diode and open capacitor (no load and re-tuned)

5th Shot is probe across Generator input, other probe across pickup coil, connected to single diode but open capacitor (no load and no re-tuning)

« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:27:04 PM by gotoluc »

mscoffman

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #275 on: March 22, 2010, 10:07:26 PM »
deleted

gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #276 on: March 22, 2010, 10:16:38 PM »
They have a gray coating.

Yesterday i made a core from a high-permeability material which is similar to Nanoperm or Metglass. With this core there was a considerable drop in inductance when i attached the magnet. With the N48 magnet it decreased by more than 99%. So i used a much smaller magnet. But also with this coil, i didn't get any remarkable effects. Not even a real resonance. The combined inductance without the magnet was about 400 mH (3 layers of wire).

I think i will not put any further effort into this topic.

Thanks for the reply skywatcher,

I just measured my coils inductance (setup in video 11 and 12) and it is about 11.75mH

One last test I would suggest is you attach you inductance meter and slowly bring your magnet so you get as close as you can to that inductance value. Make spacers so it stays at that inductance and then pulse with 12.88vdc in the 38KHz range @ 50% duty cycle. You should find a frequency around that range that the current will drop by lots.

Question: are you using a signal generator or a 555?

I get the best results using my signal generator then the 555 timer. I will try to figure out why.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

LightRider

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #277 on: March 23, 2010, 03:00:00 AM »

@LightRider

Excellent, if true. Please, don't repeat errors of the past, use the optoisolator method
to delete added function generator energy early. The asymmetric 4n35 opto signal may
work..It might even make things better. :D. If not, operate the signal generator at
2 x f and run the opto output through a cmos /2 FF flip-flop with circuit energy supply
coming from the bulk capacitor. Please keep us informed with what happens.

Also, what value bulk capacitor are you using?...that will affect energy to voltage
conversion speed.

:S:MarkSCoffman

500 VDC - 240 MFD.
39.6 kHz - 8 vpp (square)
9v battery.
9.10v -> to a maximum 12.10v (when disconnected)
4N35 opto is currently tested... (result tomorrow)
Thanks,
LightRider
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 03:22:59 AM by LightRider »

LightRider

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #278 on: March 23, 2010, 04:16:28 AM »
Preliminary results with the 4N35 opto :

Frequencies were swept (taking into account the 4N35 tolerance)
Different duty cycle has been tried

but...
In the best case, the cap drains very slowly.
but does not continue to fill as in previous results (first circuit without the 4N35).

Perhaps the setup or adjustments are not optimal...
but it seems difficult to arrive at the same result with the 4N35.

setup:
the 4N35 was added to trigger IRF640 Gate.
the rest of the circuit remains unchanged...
circuit with a 9v battery.
500 VDC - 240 MFD cap.
IRF640 mosfet
same toroidal coil

Thanks,
LightRider

Magluvin

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #279 on: March 23, 2010, 04:21:30 AM »
Sorry Ms  I must have missed something. =]
I assumed in reply without all facts.

Was thinking. Self Running coil may be a key set of words to think about.

Lets say the coil is in resonance and the mosfet is just tapping or kicking along. On the scope shots, are we seeing a ring within those spikes? Or is it that the pulse sent in, comes back in a larger form and then done.

If that return pulse is more than what went in, then if we have another coil tuned in the same manor, then we redirect with a diode the reverse pulse to the second tuned coil, of which you should get a return pulse that can be sent , via diode to the next tuned coil, and so on.  Each step increasing output to the next.  Now being that it is working at low freq, there must be delays along the chain, so a no. of tuned coils would have to be determined to be back in phase at the end if we wanted it to be a true self running coil. But using a timer or sig to drive the first coil in the chain and collecting the higher output is good too.

Maybe only 2  tuned coils can feed each other till melt down. lol   But a load or fused circuit can prevent that.

I think when you get to using more than 1 identically tuned coils in the right config, things are really going to happen.

mags

gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #280 on: March 23, 2010, 05:28:33 AM »
Preliminary results with the 4N35 opto :

Frequencies were swept (taking into account the 4N35 tolerance)
Different duty cycle has been tried

but...
In the best case, the cap drains very slowly.
but does not continue to fill as in previous results (first circuit without the 4N35).

Perhaps the setup or adjustments are not optimal...
but it seems difficult to arrive at the same result with the 4N35.

setup:
the 4N35 was added to trigger IRF640 Gate.
the rest of the circuit remains unchanged...
circuit with a 9v battery.
500 VDC - 240 MFD cap.
IRF640 mosfet
same toroidal coil

Thanks,
LightRider

Hi LightRider,

thanks for doing the tests and posting your result.

Do you have a scope?... if so, can you take a picture or post a scope shot of the gate pulse (without OPTO) that gave you the positive result and the pulse of the OPTO'ed one.

I would like to see what each form looks like.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

mscoffman

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #281 on: March 23, 2010, 07:50:37 PM »
Preliminary results with the 4N35 opto :

Frequencies were swept (taking into account the 4N35 tolerance)
Different duty cycle has been tried

but...
In the best case, the cap drains very slowly.
but does not continue to fill as in previous results (first circuit without the 4N35).

Perhaps the setup or adjustments are not optimal...
but it seems difficult to arrive at the same result with the 4N35.

setup:
the 4N35 was added to trigger IRF640 Gate.
the rest of the circuit remains unchanged...
circuit with a 9v battery.
500 VDC - 240 MFD cap.
IRF640 mosfet
same toroidal coil

Thanks,
LightRider

Really, Good work LightRider...More or less what one would expect. It
would be nice if your could get your bulk capacitor up in value with
30WVdc. A used high res computer CRT might contain some "low ESR"
ones. At least to a couple of Kuf's seems to work well for gotoluc.
Don't forget the variable resistor to tune the drive level on the
IRF640's gate! See what that does.

---

If you could now wind a coil on a plastic wire spool somewhat like J.
Naudin had, that could slip over the magnets to near the toroid and
connect that into a Schottky bridge rectifier and some electrolytic
cap...driving the opto's output transistor...you just may have it! If
you could wind some wire then test the voltage then wind some more
to adjust coil's output voltage under load that might help. and/Or consider
a power conserving impedance matcher. Just kind of throw it into the
circuit temporarily at various points. To see if anything could benefit
impedance matching adjustments.

Don't burn yourself out though, we maybe chasing unity gain.
We just need *a little of claimed overunity* from the pickup coil!

:S:MarkSCoffman

mscoffman

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #282 on: March 23, 2010, 08:12:18 PM »
@all

I can explain any of those scope shots in Coil test #11, #12
video except the weird waveform in scope shot #1.
just ask if interested.

---

@gotoluc

An interesting experiment would be to get some of Bedini's R60
welding rods to make a square metal core for pickup coil. Set one
end of the core parallel to the base of the plastic spool. Then stick
the magnet stack to that base and place the other end of the core
to near the toroid. The core mag circuit will conduct the magnetic
field up to the toroid. Nothing should happen because of the
strength of the magnets, but it still might.?.That is - no cutting
of lines or reduction of field strength = no signal from the pickup
coil.

:S:MarkSCoffman
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 12:39:29 AM by mscoffman »

synchro1

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #283 on: March 23, 2010, 09:33:21 PM »
See attachment.  This is Kunal's flux toroid generator. Basicly, just a magnet inside the toroid with pulsed reluctance switches on either side.

NextGen67

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #284 on: March 24, 2010, 01:39:47 AM »
@all

I can explain any of those scope shots in Coil test #11, #12
video except the weird waveform in scope shot #1.
just ask if interested.
<...>
:S:MarkSCoffman
MarkSCoffman,

Yes, please do so, as many of us will be interested about that -)

As for the Pick-up coil... Since Luc is back at square one for a while, In my opinion it is better to see what happens when he plugs in the STS2DNF30L (or a replacement one). We need to forget about the pick-up coil for a while, and figure out first if an mosfet with lower values (better specs) then the IRF640 will indeed also increase the 'charging up' effect of the Capacitor.

Reason being the IRF640 needs quite some energy to actually switch it ON, so *if* some of this energy triples through the circuit, it will be amplified and in such a way *could* be responsible for the cap 'charge up'... However a replacement mosfet (STS2DNF30L) for example which requires *way* less energy to switch on, hence would *also* cause *less* energy triple trough the circuit... Now *when* the STS2DNF30L results in a *better* cap 'charge up' then the IRF640 it can be argued leakage is not the cause.

On the other hand, if the STS2DNF30L shows a cap 'charge up' that is far lower then when he used the IRF640, it can be argued that indeed the hidden leakage could be responsible for the cap 'charge up'.

Sounds plausible ?

--
NextGen67