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Author Topic: Self running coil?  (Read 304594 times)

mscoffman

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #210 on: March 20, 2010, 06:49:37 PM »
I detect energy levels are beginning to converge.  ;)

For an experiment I would be interested in seeing
the maximum overunity gain measured two ways.
One time with a stopwatch while the voltage goes
from say 16.64Vdc to 17.64Vdc. The other would
null out the voltage change with a variable resistor.
Then measure the resistor setting with the DVM.
These things wouldn't take very long in a video

The other thing would be to build the NE555 cmos
timer circuit powered from dc derived from the reasonant
independent pickup coil. Have the NE555 output frequency
driving a 2nf capacitor to ground to see if you can get
to the required 10.94Vac pp. drive signal level of the
IRF640. (caution here)

Finally, I think you should purchase two IRF510 mosfets. Install
them in parallel in your experimental breadboard (easy) just install
them next to one another with all S,G,D's  connected to each
other. Now you have a Fet with the following characteristics;
Rds = .20ohms (very similar to the IRF640) and  Ciss= 2 x 135
= 270pf (4 times lower then IRF640). Now see what that will do
by tuning and measuring. I expect gate drive might be reduced
down to 3.0Vac pp! Now measure maximum overunity. One needs
to keep fingers crossed, that lower input drive is not the cause
of caps charging. Make overunity measurements. Then take one
of the parallel IRF510's away and re-tune and measure overunity
gain again... You probably will be driving like ~100 times less power
into the circuit from the signal generator. It makes the gate driver
look like 30->40Kohms equiv.

---

I wanted to summarize what I have said in previous
posts.

a) Use a series variable resistor on the gate of the
mosfet in tuning for maximum overunity gain in place
of the signal generator's output level control in case
its not available. Signal generator <-> opto only logical
use of opto.

b) Use a variable resistor to null-out the voltage gain
on the bulk capacitors after setting circuit overunity
gain to maximum rate. (better use a fixed resistor in
series with the variable) Measure the variable resistor
setting with a DVM. Lower resistance means better
overunity gain.

c) Find an “outlier” mosfet with spec sheet Ciss<200pf
And Rds<1.0ohm The lower both of these values are,
better...Found one, See below. This will lower the
drive voltage by up to ten times from the 10.94Vac
pp of IRF640 and lower transferable power even more.
Unfortunately if net overunity gain gets damaged you
won't be able to tell whether it’s due to the lower gate
power injection or the higher Rds, so keep one's fingers
crossed that the overunity gains seen is really overunity
energy.

Here is a mosfet that looks very promising;
    IRF510;   Ciss =135pf,    Rds =0.4ohms  <= try this!

As long as these parameters are correct and it is a mosfet
function forget the other parameters as they tend to trade
off except max Vds. Before doing anything check against any
stupid errors.

---

You can find all sorts of Web "calculators" for various electronic
equations on google. Just type the formal description of
what you want into google search then add the "calculator"
keyword.

impedance of inductance at frequency calculator
reasonant frequency of inductor and capacitor calculator

:MarkSCoffman
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 10:42:21 PM by mscoffman »

HarryV

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #211 on: March 20, 2010, 06:51:28 PM »
G= gate
D= drain
S= source

IIRC = if I recall correctly
:)

thanks!

HarryV

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #212 on: March 20, 2010, 07:02:10 PM »
Quote from: NextGen67 link=topic=8892.msg233404#msg233404 [b
Without the supply, the cap is not parallel with it anymore by the way [since it is not there], and the leakage from the mosfet is also not parallel with the Cap, at least not directly, but via the Gate, through the Drain.[/b]


NextGen67

I am sorry to be a prick about this, but could you or someone draw the circuit without the battery, include the capacitor and make the power sources for the signal generator and mosfet explicit.

mscoffman

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #213 on: March 20, 2010, 07:22:58 PM »

Well, maybe finding the optimum pick up coils is the first now, I think what Luc temporarily uses is too long, the further end of the coil from the toroid can only receive much less juice, unfortunately. I think a size of his toroid core he uses now could serve as the size for  multiturn pick up coils, including the thickness as the max length for the coil. And ALSO I repeat here: it would be definitely worth trying to use some small piece of ferrit core inside these pick up coils, to increase their useful self inductance, hence received induced power.

rgds,  Gyula

@gyula

If you/we were designing a product I would agree about coil size but for
a voltage/current experimental pick-up intercepting more of a diminishing
mag field won't hurt. I agree with NexGen67 when you put ferrite into the
coil you begin moving the mag process we are trying to understand into
this coil! I might try this before I turned the power off to see if I was
missing anything really exciting, but otherwise it is not worth it, leaving
it running that way. You are trying to sneak it in, but the main circuit will
know. :)

By the way, some of those low inductance pancake coils look better
for instr. mag probes. Remember that a raw big coil resonates based
on it's self capacitance when unloaded or loaded only by scope
probes.

:S:MarkSCoffman

NextGen67

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #214 on: March 20, 2010, 08:30:13 PM »
Luc,

Ha so there seem to be two choices of mosfet now.

Either the RF510;   Ciss =135pf,    Rds =0.4ohms
Or the si1026x; Ciss =60pf,    Rds = 0.7ohms  [the build in set combined]

Gyula was that in series or parallel? Also, could a 2nd si1026x be added, and by such create something like: 2* si1026x; Ciss =120pf,    Rds = 0.35ohms  [the build in sets combined] without having negative other things happening?

Now if we only could find a single one that has Ciss=<120pf,    Rds=<0.35ohm

Anyhow, a little problem [for Luc] that could happen is that the frequency factor goes so far up that he might need to put his magnet closer to the coil... So Luc, if you go for any of the above mosfet types, and you can't get a good charge back [but still notice some effect], you probably would need to come closer with your magnet. You might having a hard time for a while finding the sweet spot back again.

--
NextGen67

gyulasun

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #215 on: March 20, 2010, 09:03:07 PM »
...
The vishay si1026 specs don't seem to measure up to
this one, unless I read it wrong.


Hi Mark,

If you study the data sheet: http://www.vishay.com/docs/71434/si1026x.pdf 

Rds ohms max = 1.4
Id amps = .5
Vgs(th) min = 1
Vgs (th) max = 2.5
Vdss Volts =  60
Ciss pf Max = 30
Crss pf Max  = 3
ton ns max = 15
toff ns max = 20

And these data are for a single device and I suggested using two in parallel because they are manufactured as double devices in a single SC89 SMD case.  NextGen has just mentioned using two such SMD cases also in parallel, which would mean 4 single MOSFET in parallel, this would still have about 120pF input capacitance but Rds would be  about  .35 Ohm.

Folks, another notice from me: On using some piece of core in the pick up coils  I meant a rod shape like a ferrite rod piece, not toroidal shape, ok?
And for the pick up coil I also meant a cylindrical, multiturn, multilayer but short coil, ok?

I understand also if the presence of any core near to the toroidal coil would detune it, then there remains using multiturn air core coils of course.

rgds, Gyula

wings

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #216 on: March 20, 2010, 09:27:24 PM »
Luc,

from your video is evident the difficulty to tune to the resonance.

A suggestion is to use the output coil ... check the maximum voltage and frequency spectra using the oscilloscope.

It is possible to control the frequency directly by this coil in order to have stable max output?

Other possibility insert a piezo sensor (from piezo microphone or buzzer) between the magnet and coil.

mscoffman

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #217 on: March 20, 2010, 10:36:35 PM »

Yes, Nextgen76 and gyulasun these all sound like reasonable solutions.
I was not thinking of running transistor device in parallel in a working
experiment but that could work. My thinking was edge down the path
of reducing Ciss to some extent seeing if we maintain overunity then
reduce it even more while letting Rds rise slightly to see if Rds is even
important. We may or may not get overunity energy but we should get
some answers. If conservation of energy holds fast we will simply be
exchanging one set of question for another set, but I don't expect that.
What I think may be happening is most of the coil magnetic lines bypass
the not yet fully saturated toroid core, but the ones that do displace
some field lines anchored in the magnets...those displaced field lines
of the magnets may be overunity ones

I was really surprised at the spread of Ciss in mosfets. I saw one that
was 6700pf...These are pure DCV current switching devices. Some have
Rds =1milliohm .001ohms! These switching applications can withstand
the high Ciss gate values because they are behaving like lightswitches.
Internally they are bunches of on-chip mosfet devices in parallel.

:S:MarkSCoffman

gyulasun

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #218 on: March 20, 2010, 10:51:04 PM »
Hi :S:MarkSCoffman,

That is fine I agree.  I think the Rds value is an issue too because it is directly in series with the toroidal coil and you can consider it as if it were part of the coil wire resistance, causing loss.  In Luc's present circuit the less than .1 Ohm or so Rds value is very nicely negligible  wrt his coil's nearly 7 Ohms copper resistance, meaning the loss on the drain-source path is very low.

On the Ciss issue: yes, from the manufacturing process it comes that Ciss goes up to as high as 6-7nF when the Rds is wanted in the milliOhm range, a result of parallel connections inside the case.

rgds, Gyula

HarryV

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #219 on: March 20, 2010, 11:04:09 PM »
HarryV,

You are right in a way.

If the core have a reaction, then the magnet has its counter reaction, I was not clear enough in my idea... What I tried to point out is that the effect we seem to have [the pick-up coils having no influence on the input energy] is caused by the core its domains [and not the magnet vibrating itself].

If you 'tight up' the magnet and the coil together, so that the motion of the magnet is very restricted, this would have a better outcome for the mentioned effect. I do not want to go to deep into this, because it might open a lot of side way argumentation, which would be not a good idea for the progress of Luc's work;)

However, I hope to make it clear what I mentioned before.

Note that this is based on Luc his pick-up coil position, in which he says that the position he found is the best place for optimal receiving of energy.

--
NextGen67

Well, I think luc's effect requires the motion of the magnets because the motion of the magnets induces a current in the coil. If I am right clamping the magnets will reduce the effect.

Otherwise I don't see how the rotation of the domains by themselves could lead to overunity.

The question is does the energy required for rotation equal or exceed the energy of the induced current due to the motion of the magnets. If it does, then it is not overunity.

NextGen67

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #220 on: March 21, 2010, 12:01:23 AM »
Quote from: NextGen67 on March 19, 2010, 07:59:40 PM
HarryV,

You are right in a way.

If the core have a reaction, then the magnet has its counter reaction, I was not clear enough in my idea... What I tried to point out is that the effect we seem to have [the pick-up coils having no influence on the input energy] is caused by the core its domains [and not the magnet vibrating itself].

If you 'tight up' the magnet and the coil together, so that the motion of the magnet is very restricted, this would have a better outcome for the mentioned effect. I do not want to go to deep into this, because it might open a lot of side way argumentation, which would be not a good idea for the progress of Luc's work;)

However, I hope to make it clear what I mentioned before.

Note that this is based on Luc his pick-up coil position, in which he says that the position he found is the best place for optimal receiving of energy.

--
NextGen67

Well, I think luc's effect requires the motion of the magnets because the motion of the magnets induces a current in the coil. If I am right clamping the magnets will reduce the effect.

Otherwise I don't see how the rotation of the domains by themselves could lead to overunity.

The question is does the energy required for rotation equal or exceed the energy of the induced current due to the motion of the magnets. If it does, then it is not overunity.

Hmm, I'll keep it short. Would the motion of the magnet not require energy? I mean swapping it back and forth can't be done for nothing... So imagine you clamp the magnet to the coil, and effectively prohibit physical movement of the coil... Now there happens some kind of pressure, since the fields still try to push each other of. Now if the magnet is tight and can't move, what happens with the energy that normally moved it? The magnet won't give way.. and *what* is actually pushing this magnet *what* caused the field that seems to push against the magnet.

--
NextGen67

forest

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #221 on: March 21, 2010, 12:14:52 AM »
magnetic field has INERTIA, because nothing can react faster then light
push magnet field ,disconnect power source but connect LC circuit alone (caps and coils), magnetic field respond generating energy excess in LC circuit
apparently because battery was removed then this circuit has potential to push magnetic field of magnet with synchronization with LC resonance.
Like a child on swing.If inductance is not rigid then energy is amplified.

forest

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #222 on: March 21, 2010, 12:33:06 AM »
how this circuit is GROUNDED ? electrons may be moving from ground

gravityblock

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #223 on: March 21, 2010, 12:43:30 AM »
How To Build Solid-State Electrical Over-Unity Devices, http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=380

The purpose of this paper is to present the "hidden" mechanism that is at work in these devices which causes them to produce excess electrical energy.

GB

HarryV

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #224 on: March 21, 2010, 12:56:56 AM »
How To Build Solid-State Electrical Over-Unity Devices, http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=380

The purpose of this paper is to present the "hidden" mechanism that is at work in these devices which causes them to produce excess electrical energy.

GB

When I click the link I am asked to logged in when I am already logged in. whats up with that?