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Author Topic: Self running coil?  (Read 255197 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #390 on: March 30, 2010, 12:01:51 AM »
He didn't state what the pictured circuit was, I see something resonating
nicely along at eight volts to the gate and and something else not resonating
very well as the load. The load Q~=1.0 and the phase shift is nearly 180
degrees out-of-phase with the input - that's hard to do. It reminds me of
that air core coil. ;D

:S:Mark

Hi Mark,

the nice sine wave is the (Ferrite core) Pulse coil in Resonance. So the top peaks of the Sine Wave is what is switching the mosfet on and off.

I can now do this at any frequency from 5KHz to 50Khz

Luc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #390 on: March 30, 2010, 12:01:51 AM »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #391 on: March 30, 2010, 12:05:48 AM »
@Luc:

I just watched your video #13. Did i understand it correctly that the circuit runs without the function generator connected (only for starting it) and without any other outside connections ?

 ???

Yes skywatcher, you understood correctly. I can even start it just by tapping the positive connection. No signal generator even needed.

Luc

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #392 on: March 30, 2010, 01:37:16 AM »
The other interesting finding I have is, the mosfet can self oscillate (switch) itself IF the right combination of inductance between the main coil and pulse coil (added between gate & source) as long as the circuit is tuned to the resonance range. By using a 3vdc feed, my dual coil toroid, IRF640 and tuning coil have achieved resonance to any frequency I want between 5KHz to 50KHz WITHOUT the use of capacitors. Many of the frequency Inductance values have been documented and someone from here is working out a formula that will be shared with all.

The above is the description to the best of my ability at this time of what is going on in the circuit at this time.

Hope this helps some to better understanding what I've been trying to share.

Luc

It appears the IRF640 is changing in capacitance according to the frequency.  The input capacitance of the IRF640 is 6 times greater than the output capacitance according to the specific test conditions from the manufacture (which the frequency may have a relationship to this input/output capacitance ratio, so the two coils would have this relationship in their inductance).  But then, you have the reverse transfer capacitance also, which could play a role in the formula.  This is my best guess since you're not sharing the frequency inductance values with the rest of us.  I guess everybody else here is incompetent, except for the one person you shared the values with.

Could you please post the data, so others can work on a formula also.  I probably won't be able to figure it out, but I like a good puzzle.  We may have a better understanding if you share with the rest of us, instead of sharing with a single individual.  We don't have a diagram of the circuit or any data with this new setup.  This is B.S.  You call this sharing?  I thought we were a community, working together to find a solution.

Thanks

GB
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 02:46:32 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #392 on: March 30, 2010, 01:37:16 AM »
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Offline NextGen67

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #393 on: March 30, 2010, 02:38:49 AM »
<...>
--------
Hi Luc,

Thanks for the answers, please when you have time measure the toroidal coil's inductance you have had in the oscillator with the scope shots. Is it still 113.5mH? Also, would be good to know the pulse coil's inductance and DC resistance, when separated from the gate-source pins, ok?

I do not agree that the IRF640 does not use external energy for its operation, sorry. The 3.8 mW or so power must be the reactive power inside the pulse coil which must be parallel resonant with the gate-source and gate-drain capacitors. This resonant circuit receives energy kicks from the drain pulses via the gate-drain cap, (Crss) the latter acting as a coupling capacitor.  The drain side voltage pulse has a low duty cycle and the toroidal coil is not in resonance. 

This circuit you tuned with excellent ingenuity to perform as the scope shot shows and consume just 14uA from 3V reminds me to a Class C oscillator circuit, here is such with a bipolar transistor:

http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14181/css/14181_80.htm

Yours would be called tuned-gate Hartley oscillator. In the above link, the L2C1 circuit receives energy kicks from the collector side via the coupling coil, L1.

This is the key explanation there: "Once every cycle, the transistor conducts for a short period of time (class C operation) and returns enough energy to the tank to ensure a constant amplitude output signal."

In your case, the MOSFET is able to conduct when the positive voltage peaks across the pulse coil are just over the MOSFET Vth threshold gate source limit, this means when the positive sinus wave goes above 2V (lower limit for the IRF640) with respect to the source i.e. when it comes up from the negative values via zero crossing and climbs up to its peak value, just reaching and passing through the threshold limit, the FET switches ON. 

I agree with you that the MOSFET capacitances contribute to the operation of this oscillator, and at the gate source side the Ciss resonates the pulse coil at 20 kHz.

<...>

-----

Comments are welcome from other members too.

Regards,  Gyula
Hi Gyula,

The inductance of the main coil depends on the frequency specified for the resonance to happen... So at for example 8Khz, the main coil mH is much higher then when the circuit is operating at say 20Khz.  We might say it the other way around.. The inductance mainly dictates at which frequency the circuit would work [this is in combination with the given mosfet due to the mosfets Capacitance].

The pulse coils inductance is again depending on the inductance of the main coil... I *think* the resistance of the pulse coil was rather high... some 50 Ohm or so... not sure. Maybe Luc can tell.

Quote
I do not agree that the IRF640 does not use external energy for its operation, sorry. The 3.8 mW or so power must be the reactive power inside the pulse coil which must be parallel resonant with the gate-source and gate-drain capacitors.

Not sure how to interpret this? I think Luc refers to the fact that the switching energy needed for the mosfet itself, *might* be greater then what the circuit as whole is consuming.... Say at 8Khz, 3Vdc the circuit takes 0.000014A, which would be 42uW of consumption. Then *if* the mosfet would use some 3+mW or so for its *own* switching, then where is that coming from, because the circuit only uses 42uW in the first place. In other words, does the [in this case] IRF640 switched at 8Khz uses more or less then this 42uW of energy normally for it's switching. I agree however that this 42uW is coming from a battery or capacitor.

I think the key point in here is determine *exactly* what the IRF640 would theoretically consume in energy when it is being switched on and off at the 8Khz rate, with the given info, as we know the circuit energy usage as a whole.

--
NextGen67

Offline NextGen67

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #394 on: March 30, 2010, 02:53:22 AM »
It appears the IRF640 is changing in capacitance according to the frequency.  The input capacitance of the IRF640 is 6 times greater than the output capacitance according to the specific test conditions from the manufacture (which the frequency may have a relationship to this input/output capacitance ratio, so the two coils would have this relationship in their inductance).  But then, you have the reverse transfer capacitance also, which could play a role in the formula.  This is my best guess since you're not sharing the frequency inductance values with the rest of us.  I guess everybody else here is incompetent, except for the one person you shared the values with.

Could you please post the data, so others can work on a formula also.  I probably won't be able to figure it out, but I like a good puzzle.  We may have a better understanding if you share with the rest of us, instead of sharing with a single individual.  This is B.S.  I thought we were a community, working together to find a solution.

Thanks

GB

Actually the capacitance [for any mosfet] is changing according to the given voltage, so you could actually keep the capacitance the same for any given frequency... Only need to adjust the coils inductance of course.

Yes, the two coils will definitely have their relationship, that is why the pulse coil it's inductance is depended on the main coils inductance. It *might* be possible maybe to come up with a pulse coil that adjust itself according to the inductance of the main coil.

I'm sure Luc will post some data later on, but I can imagine he's rather busy with things, and he might want to include some other models then only an IRF640? Because that would allow anyone to figure out better how to work out the relationships, so that a formula can be determined that works in any given situation and with any mosfet one plugs in [of course would need to know the mosfets specifics for that, and the capacitance of the mosfet would need to allow for a certain 'off' range].

--
NextGen67

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #394 on: March 30, 2010, 02:53:22 AM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #395 on: March 30, 2010, 03:06:58 AM »
Actually the capacitance [for any mosfet] is changing according to the given voltage, so you could actually keep the capacitance the same for any given frequency... Only need to adjust the coils inductance of course.
--
NextGen67

That is not how I understand Luc's description.  He said, 3vdc is feeding the mosfet, and it was able to self-oscillate to any frequency between 5KHz to 50KHz WITHOUT the use of capacitors.  He didn't say anything about changing the voltage feeding the mosfet in order to change the capacitance for a given resonate frequency.  If he's not changing the voltage, then it can only happen if the two coils have the proper relationship in their inductances and the capacitance of the mosfet is changing with the frequency. Please correct me if I am wrong, Luc.

If you change the frequency, then the capacitance must also change accordingly in order to be in resonance.  Their is only one frequency where the capacitance reactance and inductive reactance are equal.  If the frequency changes, then the capacitance must be changed also, in order to be in resonance.

Thanks,

GB
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 03:39:09 AM by gravityblock »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #396 on: March 30, 2010, 04:00:10 AM »
I'm sure Luc will post some data later on, but I can imagine he's rather busy with things, and he might want to include some other models then only an IRF640?
NextGen67

He's already given the data to another person to analyze.  It should only require a simple copy and paste in order to post it here.  It would take a few minutes at the most.

In fact, it would have required the same amount of time and work to post the data here, for all to see, as it did to send it to an individual.  It makes me feel like the rest of this community is irrelevant.  I guess the individual who received the data, doesn't have time to post it either.  It's almost like he agreed or doesn't want to post the data.  No video.  Totally left in the dark until they figure the formula out.  Why is this being done behind closed doors?

I guess they want to find the formula, so they can make an agreement with Stefan, so nobody else can claim the OU prize based on this formula.  This sounds all too familiar to me, because it's already been played out on this forum. That OU prize makes some people not post important information on this forum.  This holds everybody back.  This isn't how an open source community works.

GB
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 04:54:27 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #396 on: March 30, 2010, 04:00:10 AM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #397 on: March 30, 2010, 05:53:50 AM »
He's already given the data to another person to analyze.  It should only require a simple copy and paste in order to post it here.  It would take a few minutes at the most.

In fact, it would have required the same amount of time and work to post the data here, for all to see, as it did to send it to an individual.  It makes me feel like the rest of this community is irrelevant.  I guess the individual who received the data, doesn't have time to post it either.  It's almost like he agreed or doesn't want to post the data.  No video.  Totally left in the dark until they figure the formula out.  Why is this being done behind closed doors?

I guess they want to find the formula, so they can make an agreement with Stefan, so nobody else can claim the OU prize based on this formula.  This sounds all too familiar to me, because it's already been played out on this forum. That OU prize makes some people not post important information on this forum.  This holds everybody back.  This isn't how an open source community works.

GB

Based on what I've seen of gotoluc I think you are totally wrong in that assumption.  He has a very caring and very open source save-the-world mindset.  If anything he simply wants to verify things so he does not mislead anyone into wasting time or money on something that may not give results they want. 

Offline wattsup

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #398 on: March 30, 2010, 06:26:54 AM »
@gotoluc

Just wanted to confirm the inductance using my dual bucking toroid.
Lot's of fun with this one.

Inductance is only useful when it gets disconnected.
Capacitance is only useful when it is connected.
Both can pitch and catch, so more inductance like you show is preferable especially in the Ozone Mode where inductance plays a major role.

I wonder if the mosfet was inline between the two coils, connecting and disconnecting what would happen?????

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #398 on: March 30, 2010, 06:26:54 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #399 on: March 30, 2010, 06:31:31 AM »
Its a Buckbuck .  =]   Sorry, It was a name we use to call our friend who was on steroids where his upper body was huge and his legs were skinny like a chicken, Buckbuck. 

Just a lil humor. =]

Mags

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #400 on: March 30, 2010, 07:25:25 AM »
That is not how I understand Luc's description.  He said, 3vdc is feeding the mosfet, and it was able to self-oscillate to any frequency between 5KHz to 50KHz WITHOUT the use of capacitors.  He didn't say anything about changing the voltage feeding the mosfet in order to change the capacitance for a given resonate frequency.  If he's not changing the voltage, then it can only happen if the two coils have the proper relationship in their inductances and the capacitance of the mosfet is changing with the frequency. Please correct me if I am wrong, Luc.

If you change the frequency, then the capacitance must also change accordingly in order to be in resonance.  Their is only one frequency where the capacitance reactance and inductive reactance are equal.  If the frequency changes, then the capacitance must be changed also, in order to be in resonance.

Thanks,

GB

Hi GB,

correct the voltage is fixed at 3vdc. The pulse coil is any coil you want to use but it must have a ferrite core. I used a shaded pole motor coil and was just sliding a long ferrite rod in or out to vary the inductance. For the main toroid I have a large 1" cube neo magnet that is fixed and about 1" away from the toroid which I slide in and out to change its inductance.

We would appreciate you not jump the gun and make conclusions of what others or myself maybe doing. Think about it. If I wanted to hold back information do you think I would say in my post that someone is looking over the data ???

I've attached the sample scope shots so you or anyone can look at them if interested. I sent it to an individual who offered to help in order to find a simple formula for interested replicators.

At this time I have too many things on my plate. So I will not answer questions related to these scope shots. The details are in the Title of each scope shot. So if you can figure out a table of some kind or create a Java calculator program them please share what you can do to help.

As you say, this is a group effort and I am a strong believer of that principal if you know me or my way of life and past public forum sharing history.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #400 on: March 30, 2010, 07:25:25 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #401 on: March 30, 2010, 07:44:59 AM »
Based on what I've seen of gotoluc I think you are totally wrong in that assumption.  He has a very caring and very open source save-the-world mindset.  If anything he simply wants to verify things so he does not mislead anyone into wasting time or money on something that may not give results they want.

Thanks e2matrix :)

you know me well and thanks for bringing this important point up. I hate waste! that's why I keep picking up microwaves, crt monitors from the garbage and try to strip all the stuff I can reuse instead of filling dumps and buying new. I would hate to see a hole bunch of replicators buy new stuff for something that is not proven yet. Give me more time and I'll give you a list with all parts and details if this really works. If you can't wait another 5 days or so then don't blame me for parts you bought for nothing :P

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #402 on: March 30, 2010, 07:48:57 AM »
@gotoluc

Just wanted to confirm the inductance using my dual bucking toroid.
Lot's of fun with this one.

Inductance is only useful when it gets disconnected.
Capacitance is only useful when it is connected.
Both can pitch and catch, so more inductance like you show is preferable especially in the Ozone Mode where inductance plays a major role.

I wonder if the mosfet was inline between the two coils, connecting and disconnecting what would happen?????

Thanks wattsup for posting and sharing your findings here ;)

Luc

Offline NextGen67

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #403 on: March 30, 2010, 02:16:31 PM »
That is not how I understand Luc's description.  <...>

If you change the frequency, then the capacitance must also change accordingly in order to be in resonance.  Their is only one frequency where the capacitance reactance and inductive reactance are equal.  If the frequency changes, then the capacitance must be changed also, in order to be in resonance.

Thanks,

GB

Hi gravityblock,

I might have expressed myself not clearly.

I mean we can keep the mosfet Capacitance the same [at 3V DC in Luc's example], and still be able to choose any desired frequency [within limits].

By variation of the coil inductance instead, we can chose any frequency *without* changing the capacitance.

Edit: It might be clear that with ' *without* changing the capacitance ', I mean the capacitance of the mosfet it's C's during a full cycle... I don't talk in terms of 'in the progess of switching on and off'.

--
NextGen67
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 02:55:10 PM by NextGen67 »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Self running coil?
« Reply #404 on: March 30, 2010, 03:04:03 PM »
@Luc:

Thanks for posting the data.  Isn't it based on the standard formula as shown below.  I'll work on a resonance calculator.

Here's the formula:

Fr = .159 / square root of LC

Fr = the resonant frequency in hertz
L = the inductance in henries
C = the capacitance in farads

I really do appreciate your work,  I apologize for being hard on you (it was uncalled for).

GB

 

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