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Author Topic: Running a lawnmower  (Read 16763 times)

Offline Artic_Knight

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Running a lawnmower
« on: March 09, 2010, 08:57:44 PM »
so i see measurements of engines in cc's and liters, can we use this to determine the ouput of gas we need with the associated engine?

im fine tuning a non variable circuit to power my hho generator at best efficencies and accounting for the output needed. once that is done i will build a dry cell thats still in the design phase (lots of data to consider) and use this to run a simple small engine lawn mower.

at the very least i will test the hho through the air intake of the lawnmower but im looking into plugging into the fuel line? anyone have any experiences or thoughts on the matter?

thanks

Offline Artic_Knight

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 05:54:07 PM »
perhaps an interesting development.

i am currently using 3 razor blades for my hho tests (just to design the best working circuit)  i had trouble soldering to them so the wire is wound around the hole and i can tell this setup is very inefficient, i was origionally using table salt to increase conductivity which obviously had rusted my razors and copper wire attatched to them (in a -+- fasion by the way) but i eventually got baking soda and also started playing without electrolyte at all. i have now noticed that the rust washed away and a grey coating is showing (used to be black) its moving to white. and i dont have any previous pictures or videos to compare to but honestly it does look like production is better :) atleast im not funking up the water with rust.

guess no one has run a small engine like a lawnmower eh? i was really hoping to share stories about that (will be trying to run mine in less than a month)

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 06:18:56 PM »
@ Artic Knight;

I haven't done it yet, But there are very small (new) 4-stroke engines
that use the small propane cylinders that are used in certain lawn
trimmers/leaf-blowers. The reason I like these is that they already
have a gas injection carb set up. I could easily see one of these
small gas engines coupled to an 800watt auto alternator/regulator and
battery (using the appropriate belt drive gearing ratio). An auto-inverter
could step the 12Vdc up to AC Utility line voltage to create a miniature
gen-set.

Although rare there are also small 4-cycle model engines that would
use less hho...but you would need skill to find an appropraite generator
that wouldn't cog and load the engine too much.

You'll need lots of hho hydrogen to run the motor, I would not be
suprised at 5 liters per minute when having the alternator loading
on the engine. And, you'll need overunity hho production if you want
the unit to run itself. A lawn mower motor engine will probably require
even more hho then that in a pure hho (no hydrocarbon fuel) set up.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline Artic_Knight

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 06:54:30 PM »
well i have a push lawn mower, its a pull cable to start. i know it has only one spark plug so must be a 4 stroke 1 cyl engine, now since that has a spark plug it has some kind of spark generating alternator ish part, can this be moddified to power the hho? at this time im assuming im gonna need my 1watt solar panel and a small 6v sealed lead acid to power.  i think i need a manual on this thing  :P LOL

questions i have:

can the alternator or spark generator on this style of lawn mower be used for hho (does it have the power)

can hho be piped into fuel line and operate that way without a special propane carb

looks like im gonna be having fun :)

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 08:44:56 PM »
well i have a push lawn mower, its a pull cable to start. i know it has only one spark plug so must be a 4 stroke 1 cyl engine, now since that has a spark plug it has some kind of spark generating alternator ish part, can this be moddified to power the hho? at this time im assuming im gonna need my 1watt solar panel and a small 6v sealed lead acid to power.  i think i need a manual on this thing  :P LOL

questions i have:

can the alternator or spark generator on this style of lawn mower be used for hho (does it have the power)

can hho be piped into fuel line and operate that way without a special propane carb

looks like im gonna be having fun :)

I feel you may be underestimating the amount of energy it takes
to make hho if you plan on running the engine solely from hho.

Can the spark magneto be used to generate hho?...
Well...the magneto in the lawn mover is a high impedance
source used to generate 15K->25KVac only. A magnet
embedded in the flywheel swings around once per cycle past
the spark coil. There are no additional timing breaker points
because the lawn mower is a "constant-RPM" device. You
have to a) change the timing of firing for the hydrogen to
0 degrees TDC top dead center. This could be accomplished
by moving the spark coil around the flywheel. Unfortunately the
spark plug in a lawn mower fires twice. Once in the power stroke
and (needlessly) once in the exhaust stroke...According to others;
b) this second plug firing needs to be suppressed for hydrogen. By the
way a small motorcycle engine might work better because they are
not constant speed devices. c) the magneto can fire the plug, but it
is extremely doubtful to have the power it takes to generate the hho.
You might try using an automobile ignition coil to step the high voltage
back down to see what you get...But generally speaking, you need
amps to make hho and that means an alternator. Most people say
d) that they inject hho directly into the air intake on the engine with
a rubber hose. You obviously don't want to keep on generating hydrogen
when the engine isn't running.

There no need to do all this at once, Take a 12 volt switching power
supply from a computer to generate the hydrogen and get your engine
running. Then figure out how to get the required 12V from the engine.

Note: there is a dual voltage hydrolysis method that uses 35Vdc at
amps and 210Vdc to produce Faraday *overunity* hho. Apparently
it is not even a violation of scientific fact to get more then a Faraday
amount of hho if it is done properly.

There is another thread on this forum that would be better suited
to talk about this in the details once you've decide on an approach.
Mainly, because some of these questions have already been delt with.
I would find it desirable to work with a clean new inexpensive engine
when having to do mechanical mods.

Just so you understand, I consider modifying an exist ICE engine
to run on solely on hydrogen to be an experimental thing and I
doubt that an engine like that will run for long without breakdowns
- unless the engine is specifically designed to run on hydrogen in
- the first place

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline Artic_Knight

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 09:37:16 PM »
well the reason im not concerned with the amount of hho that it takes to drive an engine is because comparing hydrogen to gasoline there is a distinctive difference in power, and seeing how much my engine takes with gasoline i dont see it needing that much hho unless its not properly set. i dont need an increase in HP so when i look at 1ltr of hho vs 1ltr of gas vapor well its a difference :)

i like popping hho its fun :p

ive got to get a manual for my model so i can adjust timing and check on how it gets fuel, perhaps i can utilize the existing fuel line.

5lpm you think? hmm  im thinking closer to 2lpm but this is my first conversion so it will be interesting to see what it takes :)


Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 09:42:33 PM »
here are a couple rhetorical questions...

why is there a compression stroke in a gas powered engine?

does hho need a compression stroke?

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2010, 10:51:03 PM »
well the reason im not concerned with the amount of hho that it takes to drive an engine is because comparing hydrogen to gasoline there is a distinctive difference in power, and seeing how much my engine takes with gasoline i dont see it needing that much hho unless its not properly set. i dont need an increase in HP so when i look at 1ltr of hho vs 1ltr of gas vapor well its a difference :)

i like popping hho its fun :p

ive got to get a manual for my model so i can adjust timing and check on how it gets fuel, perhaps i can utilize the existing fuel line.

5lpm you think? hmm  im thinking closer to 2lpm but this is my first conversion so it will be interesting to see what it takes :)

@ AK;

Gasoline is a liquid so you would be correct about it with liquid hydrogen. :)
Did you know that liquid hydrogen is like half the weight of water?

Timing on a lawn mower is likely to be fixed...maybe adjustable by sliding
the coil around a bit on it's mounting brackets.

On the 2 liters vs 5 liters per minute you could be right. There is information
about this around on the web though.

---

@WilbyInebriated

a) You will need to compress the air at any rate. Oxygen in
the air and fuel need to be in a stochiometric "balanced" ratio.
The compression cycle is one full rotation of the crankshaft.
Also simple gas pressure regulation largely "wastes" the
pressure energy of the gas on the variable high pressure side.

b) Whether a fuel burns or explodes "detonates" depend on the
applied pressure. This is why it is dangerous to throw
gasoline onto a fire from a closed container. If the fumes in
the container ignite the container can detonate.  The pressure
gets the air fuel mix half way there. In a diesel engine it gets
it all the way. Do you know that the diesel pressure of hho is
only 400psi?

:S:MarkSCoffman


Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010, 11:47:32 AM »
@WilbyInebriated

a) You will need to compress the air at any rate. Oxygen in
the air and fuel need to be in a stochiometric "balanced" ratio.
The compression cycle is one full rotation of the crankshaft.
Also simple gas pressure regulation largely "wastes" the
pressure energy of the gas on the variable high pressure side.

b) Whether a fuel burns or explodes "detonates" depend on the
applied pressure. This is why it is dangerous to throw
gasoline onto a fire from a closed container. If the fumes in
the container ignite the container can detonate.  The pressure
gets the air fuel mix half way there. In a diesel engine it gets
it all the way. Do you know that the diesel pressure of hho is
only 400psi?

:S:MarkSCoffman
thanks mark, i'm well aware what a compression cycle is and how an ICE works as well as the reasons why gasoline combusts. do you know what a rhetorical question is? ;)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 12:15:34 PM by WilbyInebriated »

Offline Artic_Knight

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010, 04:08:14 AM »
400 psi? thats all? very interesting... do you by chance know what the psi in a regular gas burning engine is?

hmm i wonder if a engine could be modified a bit to generate that pressure....

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2010, 07:21:46 PM »
@AK

Rather then psi's mechanics speak of engine "compression ratio" and
"displacement" volume.

A normal auto gasoline engine is 10->13 compression ratio and
that translates to 150->200 psi at TDC over the 1bar at BDC.
Change the height of the piston or the length of the piston
rod to change the compression ratio but that will change the
displacement some also. To change just the compression ratio would
require a different crankshaft. Diesels have a 16->22 compression
ratio but the also inject the fuel under pressure. I'll bet a new lawn
mower has less compression to enable easier manual pull starting.

Constant: One "Bar" = 1 atmosphere = 14.7psia
Lawn mower = stationary engine

a link for details;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio

:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline Artic_Knight

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2010, 02:41:50 PM »
thanks for the link im gonna have to get educated on this :)  i would consider it near pointless to make a deisel mod to a lawn mower because of the need of a alternator installed etc but for a car, perhaps that mod wouldnt be soo bad... then the spark plug energy (albiet probobly not much) could be used for more hho :)  i have some more studying to do.

thanks :)

Offline Cherryman

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2010, 05:27:34 PM »
Forum member Woodpecker had some great progress on running small engines on HHO, somehow he stopped updating..   ???


Offline Artic_Knight

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2010, 04:20:20 AM »
yes questionable isnt it? but alas i find that there are many good thoughts and very detailed advice in the attatched document, it is a good read which many may have seen already but is worth sharing.

i particularly find interest in alternating the corner which the hole is in to prevent current leakage and that efficiency is lost using amps above .5 per sq inch.

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Running a lawnmower
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2010, 01:03:53 AM »
@Artic Knight

Here is a link that answers a number of above mentioned
questions on the engine side (only) of an hho installation
for small and large engines.

Hydrogen Fuel Engine Fundamentals Parts #1 thru 10 link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo88bRN8vFw

He is showing hydrogen, hydrogen storage etc. hho
would be similar except that the engine would require
additional outside air as he throttles the engine to low
power, and of course there is no hho storage available,
but pressurizing 5Kpsi or 10Kpsi hydrogen store wouldn't
be that fun either. So will require spot generation of hho.

Also 6->10LPM hydrogen for a 5HP engine.

:S:MarkSCoffman