Author Topic: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work (Read 88176 times)

Low-Q · « **Reply #165 on:** April 17, 2010, 11:01:38 PM »

Quote from: Butch LaFonte on April 15, 2010, 11:15:18 PM

See video's on lafonte group A site and read this thread from the start.
Thanks,
Butch

I have just seen to much Discovery Channel. "In the name ov science, question everything"

. I was not very contributing in that post, but I did not mean to fight the project, but there was a moment I couldn't see the use of the switch if it is impossoble to harness energy in an overunity way. I do indeed think this is a very interesting project, with an approach that is not very common. Keep up the good work Butch. Looking forward to the final product!

Vidar

scotty1 · « **Reply #166 on:** April 18, 2010, 10:06:41 AM »

Hi all.
Today I made an metal core out of very fine particles mixed with resin.
I get the material from the waste shute of a shot blasting machine in a foundry. It is almost like powder.
I sifted it with a magnet, then mixed one part of the resin in. After that I mixed the second part of the resin in, and packed the mix into the mold.
I also tested it for continuity and there is nothing at all. No buzz from the meter even with the probes at less than 1 mm apart!!!
That shows that all the particles are insulated from each other.
I made it all one piece so now I just have to cut the ends off and put some coils on, then screw the coils back in.
The core is very magnetic, and I only just coated the particles enough to bind.
Scotty.

Blainiac · « **Reply #167 on:** April 18, 2010, 11:37:18 AM »

Wow Scotty1, that's pretty gnarly dude! It's very magnetic and no continuity, awesome.

Blainiac · « **Reply #168 on:** April 18, 2010, 11:53:39 AM »

Sorry to double post, but what do you think about this design butch? It's the same concept as the new design you have, except the coil 'arms' extend along the rotor shaft instead of the sides. If you added another switcher unit 180 degrees further down the shaft, the flux through the coil would be attracted to the other magnet. I thought this might be easier and allow for more coils in a small space.

gyulasun · « **Reply #169 on:** April 18, 2010, 12:27:13 PM »

Hi Scotty,

Very, very good! Hopefully the iron in the mixture has a low remanent magnetism remained (like a normal ferrite core has) so that it would not retain much flux when you want to remove flux from it at will.
You can test this by trying to magnetize a small piece like a rod from your mixture with a very strong permanent magnet and then probe the rod with an office pin or with a needle. Because the only enemy here with home built cores is remanent magnetism.

rgds, Gyula

gyulasun · « **Reply #170 on:** April 18, 2010, 02:34:22 PM »

Quote from: LarryC on April 17, 2010, 06:35:41 AM

Hi Butch,

Don't expect any OU with a cheap AC induction motor as prime mover, it is only good at detecting increases or decreases in rotor torque.

Actually, the results are somewhat confusing to me. The switcher has a small advantage, but the input watts, with toroid, no caps, went up as the ohms increased. The input watts, with no toroid, no caps, went down as the ohms increased. Maybe Gyula or others have some insight.

Regards, Larry

Hi Larry,

I think in both cases the transformer lamination works in near saturation mainly from the strong Neos and the changing load current's (counter) flux either works against the prime mover when the toroid is there or works for it when the toroid is not present. Earlier you mentioned to Butch Thane's generator with its strange behavior in case of high or low Ohm output coils, I think a similar effect manifests here with your 10 Ohm output coil.
It is true your 10 Ohm coil does not sound a high Ohm value, nor does it give out some hundred Volts but still that coil may have enough self capacitance (as a multilayer mains transformer coil normally has) to cause those strange effect.

So, if the above reasonings are more or less correct, then core saturation somehow should be dealt with first (try using much weaker magnets), and your output coil ought to be redesigned.

There is one more notice:
In your earlier tests when you found input power demand increased for the 10 Ohm load wrt the 100 Ohm load, (either without or with the series resonating capacitor) how can the increase be explained in a setup like this? Maybe a mechanical revision is also in order if the laminations saturation could be excluded?

rgds, Gyula

LarryC · « **Reply #171 on:** April 18, 2010, 05:37:21 PM »

Quote from: gyulasun on April 18, 2010, 02:34:22 PM

I think in both cases the A lamination works in near saturation mainly from the strong Neos and the changing load current's (counter) flux either works against the prime mover when the toroid is there or works for it when the toroid is not present. Earlier you mentioned to Butch Thane's generator with its strange behavior in case of high or low Ohm output coils, I think a similar effect manifests here with your 10 Ohm output coil.
It is true your 10 Ohm coil does not sound a high Ohm value, nor does it give out some hundred Volts but still that coil may have enough self capacitance (as a multilayer mains transformer coil normally has) to cause those strange effect.

So, if the above reasonings are more or less correct, then core saturation somehow should be dealt with first (try using much weaker magnets), and your output coil ought to be redesigned.

There is one more notice:
In your earlier tests when you found input power demand increased for the 10 Ohm load wrt the 100 Ohm load, (either without or with the series resonating capacitor) how can the increase be explained in a setup like this? Maybe a mechanical revision is also in order if the laminations saturation could be excluded?

I can try smaller magnets to reduce the saturation, but I do not agree that a 10 Ohm coil can have any significant parasitic capacitance. I've done a lot of testing with high Ohm coils. In the picture below is a 76 and 121 Ohm coil using 28 gauge wire. Thane has done 100's of test. 60 Ohm is close to the lowest that would cause the speed up effect.

My 76 Ohm coil seems close in size to one of those used by Lafonte group in earlier test, where they used four spools.

'In your earlier tests when you found input power demand increased for the 10 Ohm load wrt the 100 Ohm load'

Not sure what you stated here.

Regards, Larry

Butch LaFonte · « **Reply #172 on:** April 18, 2010, 08:22:55 PM »

Quote from: Blainiac on April 18, 2010, 11:53:39 AM

Sorry to double post, but what do you think about this design butch? It's the same concept as the new design you have, except the coil 'arms' extend along the rotor shaft instead of the sides. If you added another switcher unit 180 degrees further down the shaft, the flux through the coil would be attracted to the other magnet. I thought this might be easier and allow for more coils in a small space.

I really like this layout, it just looks like it would have no other choice but to work!
Butch

Butch LaFonte · « **Reply #173 on:** April 18, 2010, 08:26:38 PM »

Quote from: scotty1 on April 18, 2010, 10:06:41 AM

Hi all.
Today I made an metal core out of very fine particles A with resin.
I get the material from the waste shute of a shot blasting machine in a foundry. It is almost like powder.
I sifted it with a magnet, then mixed one part of the resin in. After that I mixed the second part of the resin in, and packed the mix into the mold.
I also tested it for continuity and there is nothing at all. No buzz from the meter even with the probes at less than 1 mm apart!!!
That shows that all the particles are insulated from each other.
I made it all one piece so now I just have to cut the ends off and put some coils on, then screw the coils back in.
The core is very magnetic, and I only just coated the particles enough to bind.
Scotty.

It looks like that is just what we have been looking for. Eddy current drag is our only obstacle at this point.
Butch

Butch LaFonte · « **Reply #174 on:** April 18, 2010, 08:29:48 PM »

Quote from: Low-Q on April 17, 2010, 11:01:38 PM

I have just seen to much Discovery Channel. "In the name ov science, question everything" . I was not very contributing in that post, but I did not mean to fight the project, but there was a moment I couldn't see the use of the switch if it is impossoble to harness energy in an overunity way. I do indeed think this is a very interesting project, with an approach that is not very common. Keep up the good work Butch. Looking forward to the final product!

Vidar

If we can over come the eddy current drag problem we have the real deal here. I always thought the layout that worked would be something simple like this.
Butch

Butch LaFonte · « **Reply #175 on:** April 18, 2010, 08:32:44 PM »

I'm maxed out right now, but will read ever post and try to comment on as many as possible.
Thanks so much guys,
Butch

Butch LaFonte · « **Reply #176 on:** April 18, 2010, 08:39:22 PM »

I feel at this point that the gaps are not the way to go and will cause cogging. I may be wrong here, but I see it that way at this point. Also, the rotor od and the stator id need to be as close to a perfect circle as possible and as small an air gap between as possible. .005" would be good, but hard to do with out CNC fabrication.
Butch

gyulasun · « **Reply #177 on:** April 18, 2010, 11:01:12 PM »

Quote from: LarryC on April 18, 2010, 05:37:21 PM

I can try smaller magnets to reduce the saturation, but I do not agree that a 10 Ohm coil can have any significant parasitic capacitance. I've done a lot of testing with high Ohm coils. In the picture below is a 76 and 121 Ohm coil using 28 gauge wire. Thane has done 100's of test. 60 Ohm is close to the lowest that would cause the speed up effect.

My 76 Ohm coil seems close in size to one of those used by Lafonte group in earlier test, where they used four spools.

'In your earlier tests when you found input power demand increased for the 10 Ohm load wrt the 100 Ohm load' Not sure what you stated here.

Regards, Larry

Hi Larry,

Thanks for your answer, and I stand corrected your 10 Ohm coil cannot have enough capacitance to cause the speed up effect. I simply thought your output coil earlier was manufactured to be the primary coil of a normal mains transformer and it may have insulation papers between its multilayer construction, this increases self capacitance.

I put my last notice you questioned otherwise: In your earlier tests you found the prime mover drew higher input power when your load was 10 Ohm instead of the 100 Ohm. I asked how can the input power increase be explained in a setup like that? (Because the setup seems to exlude or reduce the normal generator effect to a minimum; I refer to your setup shown in Reply #99.) And this is why I hinted at some mechanical revision in the actual setup, for the theoritical setup seems ok in this respect. Sorry for this.

Thanks, Gyula

LarryC · « **Reply #178 on:** April 19, 2010, 01:00:17 AM »

Quote from: gyulasun on April 18, 2010, 11:01:12 PM

Thanks for your answer, and I stand corrected your 10 Ohm coil cannot have enough capacitance to cause the speed up effect. I simply thought your output coil earlier was manufactured to be the primary coil of a normal mains transformer and it may have insulation papers between its multilayer construction, this increases self capacitance.

I put my last notice you questioned otherwise: In your earlier tests you found the prime mover drew higher input power when your load was 10 Ohm instead of the 100 Ohm. I asked how can the input power increase be explained in a setup like that? (Because the setup seems to exlude or reduce the normal generator effect to a minimum; I refer to your setup shown in Reply #99.) And this is why I hinted at some mechanical revision in the actual setup, for the theoritical setup seems ok in this respect. Sorry for this.

Hi Guyla,

No need to think me for my answers, as I appreciate having someone with your knowledge and experience to bounce these concepts off.

I was able to lift up the plastic bobbin edge on the H transformer. Couldn't see any paper on the primary that I'm using, but there seemed to be a few paper partitions in the secondary. The secondary has multiple outputs so that seems correct.

Not sure which post you seen with higher input power with 10 Ohm instead of 100 Ohm. I'm still using the setup shown in #99 and in reply #126 with the old 4 magnet setup, the input watts went up with the Ohms.

Did you notice my comment about the resistors got much hotter faster with the H transformer only. Plastic melting hot in several minutes, whereas with the switcher not even close. I'm thinking it has something to do with the voltage and current being more in line (power factor) with the H transformer then with the Switcher setup. I believe this is an important observation.

I did try some weaker magnets, but it only resulted in much less power output. I think the large air gaps (3/8 and 5/8), that I'm using is eliminating any saturation problem.

Regards, Larry

HopeForHumanity · « **Reply #179 on:** April 19, 2010, 04:08:44 AM »

This really looks promising. All the problems people are running into look like they can be problem solved, so its all the more reason not to give up. Keep up the good work guys; i'm really liking this!

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Author Topic: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work (Read 88176 times)

Low-Q

Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work

scotty1

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Blainiac

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Blainiac

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gyulasun

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gyulasun

Re: Larry, am I reading this right?

LarryC

Re: Larry, am I reading this right?

Butch LaFonte

Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work

Butch LaFonte

Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work

Butch LaFonte

Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work

Butch LaFonte

Please forgive me if I don't reply

Butch LaFonte

Taking gaps out and perfect circles

gyulasun

Re: Larry, am I reading this right?

LarryC

Re: Larry, am I reading this right?

HopeForHumanity

Re: LaFonte Group can turn off permanent magnet without work