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Author Topic: Electrical igniter for gas engines A keystone to understanding by Magluvin  (Read 246613 times)

gyulasun

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...
 if I take 0,1uF/400V capacitor good for high frequency circuits polyester type and join both terminals with a fast diode for 400V what I obtain ? Is that now polarized capacitor like electrolytic one  and can be charged only using DC and used only in DC related circuits ?   

Yes, but not only in DC or DC related circuits but in pulsed circuits where the polarity of the pulse mainly have a single polarity and little opposite polarity (on opposite I mean the polarity where the parallel diode would conduct (would become forward biased) and would clamp that polarity to its forward voltage level, say  .7V).
For AC waveforms with zero crossings like a normal sinusoidal voltage your cap + diode combination would short circuit that half wave of the AC wave which would forward bias the diode, the other half of of the AC wave can charge up the cap to its peak amplitude.  Remember: when the diode conducts in its forward direction, a huge current can go through on it and this current is only limited by the AC voltage source inner resistance or impedance and whatever component(s) are in series with the AC source towards the diode.

I am not sure what exactly you mean on computing current properties in saturated inductors?

rgds,  Gyula

baroutologos

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I begun sto study Tito's suggested patents starting with 568.178 one. Similar in concept to the Ozone patent.

The basic principle of operation as Tesla notes, is charging a high self indcution coil, then upon circuit break, coil collapses in a capacitor, bringing it to high voltage, then upon circuit reconnect, capacitor discharges in a LOW induction coil, which have a recepient secondary coil which depends on our goal.

I liked this patent's full features of control as, adjustbale high self-induction (or adjustable L/R ratio) for regulating power strength of apparatus (same with a rehostat) thus adjusting motor speed, adjustable commutator's brushes, adjustable primary inductunce and secondary. All adjustable.

Whereas, adjustable primary's LpCp or secondary's LsCs parameters are for attaining best resonance match, the adjustable motor speed and brushes are for propar pulse phasing!

I explain. In the energetic forum
 http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5186-patent-462-418-method-apparatus-electrical-conversion-distribution.html#post87846 and
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5186-patent-462-418-method-apparatus-electrical-conversion-distribution.html#post87878

I am comparing my experimental results between a Kacher or Solid State Tesla coil and a traditional shock-excitation Tesla coil.
The solid state, have a perfect resonance effect, smooth as i say and bring FL tubes to full brightness next to it (the proof). On the contrary my traditional spark-gap Tesla coil that pulses some 100 times/sec, has not any smooth resonance effect (fails to light a neon to a satisfactory brightness or a FL tube to any particular brightness) yet its sparks and general behaviour is vast more energetic than the solid state one.

I concluded in resonance grounds that the traditional spark-gaps sux, because they cannot guarantee us that they fire in exact same time intervals, thus one can be in contrast to another due to wrong phasing even though primary-secondary resonance's parameters are the same. I acknowledge in large Tesla coils that can light a FL to tens feets away, full brightness even thought they may appear perfect resonators in fact they may not be. A o-scope can tell as always about it.

Anyway, that was a observation of mine.

Btw i am far more interested at the moment in shock-pulsing than smooth resonance, because i see the far more energetic nature of shock excitation.

forest

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I was not useful lately so I found Tito first schematic and added polarity marks  ;D
Keep going.

forest

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Polarity marks are of course based on diode direction  :D

forest

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he he I have already about 10 relay circuits to test based on this Tito schematic :o :o
Maybe I catch the one and only  ???
May I ask if diode and resistor goes always across capacitor terminals ? I'm preparing a common "blocks" to play with that around relay and I'd like to merge capacitor,resistor and diode as one "block".
Let's play!  ;D ;D

Magluvin

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Hey Forest
Are you going to try it?  =]   1st suggestion will be to fuse 1 of the battery terminals. I burned my bread board a lil bit by thinking I was good. =]
But instead of a fuse, I used a light bulb. One that takes a bit of current to light, while cold is low ohms.
Then if there is a problem, the light lights up thus increasing the ohms of the bulb and limiting the current to the project. When it lights, you know something is up. =] And you dont have to replace the bulb.
Also, Radio Shack has a bundle of various disk caps for a couple bucks. These are what got me the highest output. Again it will depend on the transformer.
I think you will enjoy the experiment.
Any Questions, Ill be around. ;]

As for the diode and resistor, a couple posts before Tito posted the drawing, he said " dont forget to use zener diode, 3v min."  I cannot say for sure that he meant that diode. And the resistor value is a guess also. i just used a silicon diode. No resistor.  I need to get some zeners to try.
One thing for sure, that cap is not there for helping to save the contacts on the relay.   ;)  So maybe the zener/resistor does that job, and maybe it does other things.
Also before the drawing he said that he had 3 coils secondary and primary.  Trifi ?  Again Tito raps in riddles.
And the riddle that gets me the most is, he claimed that the secondary is "perpendicular to the primary. Well I have tried that in 5 different ways and a regular transformer worked the best. I havnt tried the bifi or trifi yet.
Im working on busting apart a glued at the mating points, ferrite transformer core, to get a good trifi winding on the plastic former that slides on the middle post of the core. Threading a trifi will be a mess without a lot of time spent to get the turns neat. And ferrite bead cores cause the windings to be separated some on the outside and bunched up on the inside. I prefer a real transformer model for this project.

I like Tito. But back then he seemed to be all about giving it to the people, but now he has a different view I suppose. Since this drawing has been brought up here, he hasnt been around.. Where ya at Teets?  =]

Mags

forest

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well...I have already 12 different combinations of elements in circuits and still growing.... A lot of circuits to test... :o

delboy

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I was not useful lately so I found Tito first schematic and added polarity marks  ;D
Keep going.
Again you are missing the point! Here what are you missing:
-you don't have large input inductivity which will secure small current from source (you can use secondary of standard transformer)
-you don't have small primary indctivity which will enable :
1. large current from condenser to primary (do not use standard transformer with core, use air core transformer) and
2. high frequency 20 kHz < f < 100 kHz

and later discuss about design of secondary (spiral form, small resistance, high Q etc...)

baroutologos

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I have read the suggested patents by Tito, namely
* 568,178, 568,179, 568,180 & 577,670, + 609,250 & 568,177

Apart from the obvious that Tesla wanted to achieve a sparkgap-less, noise free, relatively low voltage, smooth-resonators of high efficiency, the following motivate my curiosity.

I must say that all this study has been brought by Tito. Tito suggested those patents. The main difference of those patents from Tesla usual ones (apart from the smoothest resonance attained) is the utilization of High induction coils for effciently charging the discharging caps.

We all here seacrhing for free energy i guess. So according to teacher Tito, if the extra energy does not lie in the normal Tesla coil resonator of LpCp & LsCs, then it must lies in the inductive discharge into capacitors. (or else those patents have not special meaning. At least for me)

...
I proceed. In all those patents Tesla standardly uses high-self induction for storing a primary energy and then upon circuit break the inductive discharge channeled to cap(s), which in turn upon circuit resume the cap-stored energy is utilized in another coil.

Tesla used this concept by both utilizing DC primary source as well as AC.

1) Particularly in AC, he says it is of advantage to break the circuit at the top of the Voltage wave. (see pat 568,179, page 1, line 60).
I initially thought he interrupted the circuit at the top of current wave so as to store the inductor maximum energy. (since E=0.5*L*I^2) Nope he says, voltage wave. Note that top of voltage wave is not top in current wave in a curcuit containing inductunce.

2) I was stunned to read that Tesla described in Patent 568,180, page 2, line 40 that when operating in AC as a primary source is of advantage even at the peak of the wave, instead of 1 break, to have multiple makes & breaks and he used two discs one stationary and one rotating that each commutator segment was split to many individual ones. So at each AC voltage peak, many make-breaks were made.

I do not know, but according standard physics, even at the top of the Wave or at maximum EMF of the alternator, the "many makes and breaks" would not allow any considerable current to flow in the High-self inductunce coils and no particular energy could they release in return.

...
Bottom line, i got the impression that Tito wanted for me to know that using a considerable high-voltage (peak of wave) from the source, to charge a high-self inductunce for a minimum amount of time (say 1-10% of its L/R constant?) and then discharge it to a collector cap then we are to expect something unsual...

forest

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Again you are missing the point! Here what are you missing:
-you don't have large input inductivity which will secure small current from source (you can use secondary of standard transformer)
-you don't have small primary indctivity which will enable :
1. large current from condenser to primary (do not use standard transformer with core, use air core transformer) and
2. high frequency 20 kHz < f < 100 kHz

and later discuss about design of secondary (spiral form, small resistance, high Q etc...)


I won't argue.Are we here to argue or to help each other ? Open relay and use your imagination then help me find how to recharge capacitor from coil.Hmm..maybe Tito put wrong description in schematic and diode and resistor are here to protect capacitor from overcharging....
I trust Tito and that means capacitor discharge is not going to the transformer at all (because that's how capacitor is placed in schematic). The main problem is in relay coil - it has to be placed somewhere along relay contacts to operate as vibrator. In the same time it has to recharge capacitor when disconnected from battery (as per Tesla patent).Still to many unknowns.I wish I could know where capacitor is discharged .... does it discharge across relay contacts alone or with relay coil in series to contacts ?

Btw I have some questions about coils. Look at the picture with coil and automated switch.When switch is open coil is saturated because of large current from battery.But what happen when switch is closed ? What is going on with magnetic field in coil ?

delboy

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I do not know, but according standard physics, even at the top of the Wave or at maximum EMF of the alternator, the "many makes and breaks" would not allow any considerable current to flow in the High-self inductunce coils and no particular energy could they release in return.

...
It's not something standard, and you are right, it's all about FIELD not CURRENT. Think about this, if you have switch that interrupts with speed 500Hz then you have only 1ms of time "Ton" for CURRENT but FIELD FROM SOURCE will reach end of wire even if it's 300km long ! FIELD FROM SOURCE travel speed of light, and will activate all electrons in wire, and when break happens FIELD collapse and all that electrons charge your capacitor. In our case length of wire will not be more than 200 meters or little more:D
Depending on how big capacity , then you choose speed to achieve resonance with input inductivity.
Tesla used switch speed even 5000 Hz but Tesla's switch could withstand 1000A with low losses;)
I mean on discharge current 1000A from condenser

baroutologos

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By the way, in the suggested diagram by Tito, i think i have figured out what zener diode does :)

It blocks the common transformer action during the inductor charging, allowing only the flyback to commence to capacitor.

So, if primary connected to battery is 220volts, and secondary output is 24 volts or a ratio 220/24 = 9 approximately, when apply 12 volts to the primary, we should have a zener of at least 12/9 volts to exit circuit.
hence 3 volts zener :)

forest

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I have read the suggested patents by Tito, namely
* 568,178, 568,179, 568,180 & 577,670, + 609,250 & 568,177

Apart from the obvious that Tesla wanted to achieve a sparkgap-less, noise free, relatively low voltage, smooth-resonators of high efficiency, the following motivate my curiosity.

I must say that all this study has been brought by Tito. Tito suggested those patents. The main difference of those patents from Tesla usual ones (apart from the smoothest resonance attained) is the utilization of High induction coils for effciently charging the discharging caps.

We all here seacrhing for free energy i guess. So according to teacher Tito, if the extra energy does not lie in the normal Tesla coil resonator of LpCp & LsCs, then it must lies in the inductive discharge into capacitors. (or else those patents have not special meaning. At least for me)

...
I proceed. In all those patents Tesla standardly uses high-self induction for storing a primary energy and then upon circuit break the inductive discharge channeled to cap(s), which in turn upon circuit resume the cap-stored energy is utilized in another coil.

Tesla used this concept by both utilizing DC primary source as well as AC.

1) Particularly in AC, he says it is of advantage to break the circuit at the top of the Voltage wave. (see pat 568,179, page 1, line 60).
I initially thought he interrupted the circuit at the top of current wave so as to store the inductor maximum energy. (since E=0.5*L*I^2) Nope he says, voltage wave. Note that top of voltage wave is not top in current wave in a curcuit containing inductunce.

2) I was stunned to read that Tesla described in Patent 568,180, page 2, line 40 that when operating in AC as a primary source is of advantage even at the peak of the wave, instead of 1 break, to have multiple makes & breaks and he used two discs one stationary and one rotating that each commutator segment was split to many individual ones. So at each AC voltage peak, many make-breaks were made.

I do not know, but according standard physics, even at the top of the Wave or at maximum EMF of the alternator, the "many makes and breaks" would not allow any considerable current to flow in the High-self inductunce coils and no particular energy could they release in return.

...
Bottom line, i got the impression that Tito wanted for me to know that using a considerable high-voltage (peak of wave) from the source, to charge a high-self inductunce for a minimum amount of time (say 1-10% of its L/R constant?) and then discharge it to a collector cap then we are to expect something unsual...


YES YES YES ! Houston we have the solution ! Finally delboy will be satisfied with DC being superior then AC in Tesla coil.
Why AC is not used in electromagnets ? That's why AC is useless in TC if you want OU.In AC there is no "free run", atoms are always in magnetic field oscillating back and forth 50 times per second.There is also hard to saturate core. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Why we call this device Tesla coil and not just Tesla transformer ? Because secondary is the CORE of coil.
Famous Tesla mass equivalence is the way to saturate secondary-core with magnetic field so every atom-magnet is properly oriented in field.

And of course I must add credit to Edison who was first to investigate this effect.

Magluvin

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Forest
i would not apply the circuit with the switch "across" the coil, just the cap, with the coil in series with the cap and battery.
What Tito is doing here is when the switch is closed, the cap is not doing anything in the circuit. But, when opened, that empty cap charges super fast, especially when of small value, thus creating that impulse. A small cap charges very fast and in a very short time. Impulse.
It is different than the igniter pat as he said some small changes. In Titos version, the cap does not discharge into the coil, it just allows the charge in the coil to have a quick and short distance to go when the switch is opened. Impulse. And it seems to work well if it can be stable. You can put a magnet near the transformer and feel the little hammer shmackin.  =]

I was in disbelief as to how Teets circuit pulsed 12v on the 220v side and was able to get a substantial voltage from the 24v side. But it does.  The 12v, switched by relay, low freq above 60hz, is able to impulse the 220v side, which is much different than smooth ac from the wall.

But when fitted with those small caps across the contacts, the impulse is sharpened and the output is more than you will expect to be from thoughts of it alone. Its more than 24v. 
All my transformers are 120v/12v other than my largest from the UPS which is 24v sec center tapped.

Logos
 Im kind of getting your drift on the zener. Keep it coming. I had a thought that maybe it had an effect of keeping the current running through the coil between pulses, and as to why I had that thought, my mind works in mysterious ways. But your way of thought seems more realistic. =] 

Delboy
I hear what you are saying, but are you suggesting that we built huge coils like Tesla or we wont be able to get the goods? Not many of us have a garage, much less a warehouse to build such a thing. We would like to work on small scale, also for cost of experimentation. I am not coming down on you. =] we appreciate the help tremendously. But I get the feeling you are saying we have to go huge for it to work.
Also, we are looking for more useful output and no lightning bolts jumping off of the equipment.   ;D

If you can throw some tips toward those goals, that would be a great help.   ;)

I am now hearing you on the air core transformer also. I had been thinking about that and the best way to go about it without getting too large and some criteria that would need to be followed. Like, should the secondary be inside of the primary, or does that not make a difference? Should there be spacing between turns of each coil, or can they be wound tight? And if so, how do we know what spacing to use? And is it that having a core material, ferrite, etc. , is it problematic?

Thanks for your time Delboy, your a good boy. =]

Mags

forest

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I'm looking at ozone patent and I must say , I'm confused.Isn't DC commutator also a second circuit interrupter here ? In that case part of energy of down coil of motor armature may discharge back to power source terminal B due to commutator action. The second (upper) coil always discharges to capacitor on magnetic field collapse.
Am I correct ?