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Author Topic: Electrical igniter for gas engines A keystone to understanding by Magluvin  (Read 246612 times)

stprue

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@delboy and definetly Tito

I think it's time to release the ou info you claim to have or at the very least show us some of your ou setups/rigs!!!

 :P


Goat

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@ all

Assuming the interrupt switch is of negligible draw.

How do we use HV #1 and HV #2 ? 

Is it one wire to the receiver or is it 2 wire to the next stage of the circuit?

How do we NOT kill the dipole on this part of the circuit?

ramset

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Sooo.........

The "class" awaits master Teecho -> ;D<- [aka Teets]

A handsome fellow ,  very white teeth         ^      [I think he uses "whitener"]

Hopefully the "class" will behave while Master Teecho gets his lesson together.
 I hear he can be "lazy"[he said so],I personally won't care if he Snores during class
as long as we get something to "study".   
Chet


forest

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Summary as I see this topic :
Everybody think that Tesla igniter is for creating HV without consuming much current from primary.
Am I correct ? Yep it's small step forward.
Any other concepts ?
I think it's amplification of power we should see here.Hmm...
We should see something like : put small 1.5 battery as power source and after a while get kW from the output.

delboy

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@goat and @forest

This is Tesla design. Look at picture. SW1 and SW2 are switches for operating receiver. SW1 can be any Fast recovary diode fo example BY-329 and SW2 can be Thyristor or Triac which will periodicaly discharge condenser to receiver. Capacity on receiver should be bigger, for example 100uF/400V.
Two spheres are secondary capacity neccesary for resonant effect in secondary! But design of secondary should be like Tesla said, length of secondary quater of wave, spiral form to secure minimal parasitic capacity and resistance low as posible for securing high Q factor.
For example , if you want 300 V/m on 50kHz then length of secundary should be 1500m and voltage on secondary should be 450kV. If you take that Q factor of secondary is Q=500 then primary have to give to secondary only 900V. If you are using 12V baterry then you must have 900/12=75 Q factor of input inductivity :D Taking losses in count you will take Q=100 ;)
Problem here is to hit the resonance in secondary because of very small bandwidth = 50kHz/500 =100Hz (for example). I must be inside this bandwidth 50000+/-100 Hz if I want at least half of available power!
On one receiver you would pick up 300V on 1 meter length and charge condenser, then discharge it on receiver. If frequency of discharge is 100Hz then power delivered to receiver will be P=900W There can be more than 2 receivers ;) You calculate is it OU if I input only 1kW for operating circuit controller!

ronotte

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Hi delboy,

thinking a-la-Tesla is always challenging and may lead to amazing devices. Your personal extrapolation on how to make use of the Tesla's electrical Igniter pat. make sense to me.

I am currently working on TMTs even if scaled down in size as I am working at 4-6 MHz range, nevertheless with only 15Vpp @ 4.5MHz 200mW of power (just lab's  function generator output) I obtain about 4KV on Tx sphere. In my case of course this is pure RF NOT PULSED BUT CONTINOUS. I receive that electrostatic signal with standard Tesla TMT receiver.

Your idea to put the Rx in series with Tx's secondary to sphere connection could work but perhaps only within a pulsed system like the one described in your example. If I could help I would suggest that the switches SW1, SW2 made of MOSFET low Ron and of appropriate Vds. The problem there is that you must operate said switches in a proper sequence that could be like:

- first close SW1 for a proper time in order to full charge the cap
- then open SW1 so isolate the input from the output
- then close SW2 in order to discharge the cap into your load
- repeat the cycle with an appropriate pace

In said case you should have plenty of flexibility in varying the pace rate and the ON duration of the pulses in order to suit properly your load.

Think that in this case you deal with potential only and finally you are trading off voltage for current hence the higher the voltage the better. It is obvious that in order to optimize it you have to know exactly how TESLA SOLVED THE PROBLEM.....just read the 'Colorado spring notes".

Finally I have some reservation about the possibility to get 'power multiplication' via multiple receivers: at least in my case it proved impossible.....but who knows?

ronotte





baroutologos

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One tonne of theories equals a gram of experimenting..

Goat

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@ baroutologos

Hope you don't mind one more theory, I'd like to start experimenting with the igniter and was wondering if you could suggest some values for the coil and capacitor to use in the first part of the circuit.

I'd like to try the following to see if pulsing SW1 then SW2 would charge a battery, there are probably many chargers based on filling a cap then discharging into a battery but I never seen one based on the NT type like the following, maybe someone already tried this and I missed it.....

bboj

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To ronotte.
As I understand Dels plan it is strictly working on impulses and the receivers are connected paralel on the receiver so one connection is at the point of a high preasure of the stationary wave and the other at the point of the low preasure. That is the reason for fine tunning.

Magluvin

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Hey Fellas
The internet was down for a few days. Sucks.
But i did do some experimenting.

In the igniter setup, I used a relay controlled by 555 timer, a 120v/12v transformer to substitute the primary/secondary on the switch side of the cap, a large fine wire coil for the large inductor and a 22uf 100v cap and a 12v bat.
This is just preliminary experiments of the circuit as a whole to get and experienced understanding of its workings. No ou as far as I see here, or as far as  things sit at the moment, but the concept works.

The primary inline with the contactor/switch/relay in the drawing , I used the secondary 12v side of the transformer and the 120v is used as an output, to what ever, Ill say in a minute. So as in the drawing, the lower no. of windings is inline with the switch. Got it?  =]

The rest is easy to understand as in what and where.
So in the end, I was able to run a phone charger on the 120v side of the transformer. It would cut out here n there but it does work. I have a lot to check out before I can state any qualified results. Im going to do a new variation on the relay due to the freq of the one Im using is a bit bouncy near the freq I want.

So all in all, when the switch is closed, the large inductor(low ohm) is charged up with field, and the current from the bat is very low while doing so. When the switch is opened, the large inductor dumps high voltage into the cap, so that when the switch closes again, the cap is dumped into the transformer which gives me output to run my phone charger. Not perfect yet, but it does show the possibilities of the circuit so far.

My work area is a shambles. My bread board has burns in it. Just wires, transformers, caps, diodes, etc. everywhere at a hands reach. lol

As soon as I clean up I will do a vid to show.  =]

I also tried Titos pulsed transformer with the relay,cap and diode. It has some good qualities, but at very unstable relay pulsings. The tiny caps work well with it, but again, I have to try some other switching methods. But it has my interest. In the unstable spiky freq, the output is very strong, but not stable and it wreck havoc on the contacts. So there is something going on there.

Project Igniter Has begun.  =]

Mags

Magluvin

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One more thing, in case any of you try my setup. It seems the bigger, as in power capability, transformer, the better the output. Remember, the battery only sees the large inductor as a load, so no matter how big the transformer, the input current will stay the same, as long as the freq of switching and the large inductor remain the same. If the large inductor is say 100ohm, the transformer coil in series is negligible in input variances.

So the large inductor gets the cap up to a couple hundred volts that is pulsed to the transformer in dc impulses. So the output on the transformer can be a couple thousand volts, as in sparks will jump a mm or 2 on the 120v side output. But the phone chargers we have today use ac/dc converters that one of the first components the 120v wall current sees is a bridge then a 450v cap. Well that cap takes that couple thousand volts can sorts it out to a working voltage, and not enough yet as the charger cuts out quite a bit, also due to unstable running at a wanted freq. I find above 60hz, up to maybe 200hz max for different transformers. My largest one is from an older ups un-interuptable power supply. Its heavy and the "normal" secondaries(12 side) is .2ohm vs a smaller on from a .5a 12v plug in supply, the secondary is 17ohm, yet the input current will remain the same with either transformer in the igniter circuit. There will be some change as you change caps for different transformers and the difference in transformer circuit primary depending on size.

Neat stuff.  And the experience is good.


Mags

delboy

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Hey Mags ;)

I told you it will be good experience.
It would be better if the switch is one with 2 brushes and roller with conducting and isolation parts rottating high speed. That would solve regulation problem as we could regulate speed of DC motor running roller.
And you could use another secondary from some transformator as large inductor. Problem here is regulation and hiting the resonance. If you could measure inductivity of your large inductor and it's resistance then by taking value of capacity you can calculate max Q factor in resonance Q=(1/R)*(sqrt(L/C))
To measure inductivity use U/I method, put your large inductivity in series with bulb let say 100W just to protect it from current oveload, and measure current and drop voltage on it. When you get this you can calculate impedance Z=U/I and you have measured resistance R, meaning you can calculate inductivity as L=(sqrt(Z^2-R^2))/(2*pi*f)
When you know value of L for example L=0,5H then put appropriate capacity let say 4,7 uF to get resonant frequency on 103Hz.
Why is the problem regulation???
Because it is resonant circuit. You have bandwidth! If you calculated Q factor for example Q=100 and you are expecting resonance for example on 100Hz that means my bandwidth is only ∆f=f/Q =1Hz meaning you must be inside this bandwidth 100±1 Hz if you want at least half of available power! That's why relay are bad , they are not used for fast switching.

forest

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I think we should analyse Tito first schematic, maybe we could recreate it.I have the feeling that I did something similar in the past but didn't knew how to extract power from it.
I would start with dead battery - some with internal shortcircuit but able to be charged to 12V. I have such one and it behaves like a giant capacitor. You can charge it really fast (in few minutes) or just 12 hours with 4amp - no matter because the behaviour is the same : it can develop lots of amps for a very short period of time then it become dead completely.For example using 55W bulb it can shine it to full brightness for a 5-10 seconds then it become dimmer and dimmer and finally after a minute it goes down to barely red filament. After disconnecting load it tends to rise voltage up to 10 v and after a few minutes you can again light 55W bulb but not to full brightness.
So my first advice is to use such dead battery as in Tito schematic - it may work like a capacitor.
Do you realized that relay is a micro Tesla coil ?!!!

Magluvin

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Hey Delboy and Forest

Yes it is a good thing to experiment with this. I kike the fact that there isnt extremely high voltage and it is simple to try it out. The rotating switch will be the next step, I see where if we dont have consistent switching, the magic can be missed.
I have a 12v battery that sits at about 6v but seems to rise really quick to a charge of 13v, bur even after hours, the charge fades quich when the charger is removed. Its just a bad battery with sulfated plates. So there is little area for the charge to build, and it acts like a small battery.

Mags

forest

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delboy,Tito and Mag and others  I have two questions , they can sound strange and offtopic but are important trust me.
I ask here because I'm not experienced in physics or electronics.
First question is about capacitor. Let's see : if I take 0,1uF/400V capacitor good for high frequency circuits polyester type and join both terminals with a fast diode for 400V what I obtain ? Is that now polarized capacitor like electrolytic one  and can be charged only using DC and used only in DC related circuits ?
Second question is about core saturation.I hope there are topics in electronic knowledge related to core saturation which I can use to compute properties of current in coil and time required to saturate given core.Help me please find those information and equations.