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Author Topic: Magnet shielding and angles  (Read 14235 times)

Rapadura

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Magnet shielding and angles
« on: February 21, 2010, 03:10:41 PM »
Hello people,

I don't have neodymium magnets by now, I'm thinking of buying some when I get some money.

But, before I buy it, I would like to ask if any of you already have some experience with magnetic shielding and angles.

See the Paint drawn below:


Rapadura

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2010, 03:14:52 PM »
I am almost sure that  ball number 1 is attracted by the magnet, and ball number 2 will not be attracted. Am I right? Or ball number 2 will be attracted?

My greater doubt is on ball number 3. At that angle, magnetic shielding should work? Either the ball will be attracted?

onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2010, 05:34:55 PM »
what you need is a good software that would show you the magnetic flux between magnetic and ferromagnetic materials. using the Halbach array with shielding would be better.

AB Hammer

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2010, 11:39:52 PM »
Rapadura

 It takes 2 layers of low carbon steel to shield properly.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8803.msg229450#new

Alan

Rapadura

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 04:08:54 AM »
what you need is a good software that would show you the magnetic flux between magnetic and ferromagnetic materials. using the Halbach array with shielding would be better.

Do you know any freeware software for that?

Well, I don't know if ball #2 and ball #3 in my scheme won't be attracted by the magnet, while ball 1 will be attracted, but IF YES, it could be very interesting... Imagine a steel ball attached to a plastic wheel, approaching that magnet from the left...

nightlife

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 04:46:03 AM »
 You can shield all you want but bottom line is that you will still end up with an equal force. The concept is to create an unequal field which shielding can not give you. You can not create an unequal field when dealing with magnets and or gravity. You can however create the illusion of an unequal field which can be used to break thru the gates if done by way of an unequal configuration. Your entrance to and or from the gates must be greater then the opposite. You must also have two in the force of the opposite of the gate to get one thru the gate. Figure out a way to do this and you will have free energy.  ;)
 I have but building it has been a very tedious task. The special arrays must be perfect and I am having a hard time making them perfect.

Low-Q

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2010, 12:59:17 AM »
I am almost sure that  ball number 1 is attracted by the magnet, and ball number 2 will not be attracted. Am I right? Or ball number 2 will be attracted?

My greater doubt is on ball number 3. At that angle, magnetic shielding should work? Either the ball will be attracted?
I can say this:

Ball number 1, 2 and 3 is attracted to the magnetic pole which now is altered a bit. A magnetic shield will do nothing but attracting the magnetism in the magnet, so all the magnetic fields in the surroundings gets weaker.

Without the shield, ball 1 is more attracted to the magnet than if you have the shield there. Ball 2 is also attracted to the magnet, but its direction is to the left with the shield, and straight upwards without the shield. Ball 3 is far away from the magnetic flux because most of it is passing through the shield, so it is in an area where the magnetic flux isn't dominated - but still a bit attracted to the left.

So a shielded magnet is still a magnet.

Magnetic lines are forced apart because they have allways the same polarity. When you weaken a magnetic field with a shield, there will be room for other magnetic lines to occupy that "emty" space outside the shield instead. So left you have a regular, but weaker magnet. The direction of magnetism is therfor not changed.

Vidar

gravityblock

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2010, 03:36:39 PM »
Rapadura

 It takes 2 layers of low carbon steel to shield properly.

Alan

Wrong.  It takes both a north and a south pole attached to a ferromagnetic material in order to shield properly.  The ferromagnetic material acts as a wire for the flux and the field will travel inside the ferromagnetic material allowing it to be diverted away from unwanted sources. The ferromagnetic material captures and contains the flux, with close to 0 stray flux outside the material, assuming the magnetic field doesn't fully saturate the ferromagnetic material. This is my video on how to properly shield a magnetic field, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_81SxByRNR8

There is second method using only a single pole where a ferromagnetic material can weaken the magnetic field by having the magnetic field to be dispersed through a larger area.  With this method, the flux won't be totally confined inside the ferromagnetic material, which causes the field to be weakened by dispersing it through a larger area.

There is also a third method.  This third method uses a larger ferromagnetic material to divert the magnetic field away from a smaller ferromagnetic material by weakening the field on one side.  Between 40 - 45 minutes of this MIT video, is a good demonstration of this effect, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddU6HBFlvEk

This should answer all the questions about magnetic shielding.

GB

Rapadura

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2010, 04:56:29 PM »
I liked all the answers in this thread, and I'll explain why I started it.

In fact, balls 1, 2 and 3 would be the same ball, just in different positions at different moments. This ball is connected by a rod to a central axis of rotation.

What I wanted to discuss is whether the ball in position 1 would be attracted toward the neodymium magnet, and if when the ball reaches position 2, the magnetic attraction would be weaker because of the shielding, and the kinetic energy of the ball would be enough for it to continue its way, without being attracted back by the neodymium magnet.

Something like this:

Low-Q

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2010, 09:27:02 PM »
I liked all the answers in this thread, and I'll explain why I started it.

In fact, balls 1, 2 and 3 would be the same ball, just in different positions at different moments. This ball is connected by a rod to a central axis of rotation.

What I wanted to discuss is whether the ball in position 1 would be attracted toward the A magnet, and if when the ball reaches position 2, the magnetic attraction would be weaker because of the shielding, and the kinetic energy of the ball would be enough for it to continue its way, without being attracted back by the A magnet.

Something like this:
If the ball is most attracted in position 1, it is surely a magnetic field somewhere in the path near the magnet where the flux is highest. The ball will be attracted towards this field. However, this field does not stop to exsist when the ball are in position 2. Why should the ball want to leave the highest flux anyway? There is simply no reason for it to do so - the ball fint itself very well comfortable at the sticky spot  :)

So, where there is most magnetic flux in the path, you have a sticky spot where the ball eventually will go to rest - no matter how you configure the shield. More shield will weaken the sticky spot, but also weaken the force between the magnet and the ball in any position.

I will make a drawing of an idea you might try. Can't promise if it will work though.

I'll be back in a minute.
Vidar

Low-Q

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2010, 10:26:10 PM »
I made some drawings and I hope you see the point. I can't say if this works, but I can say that the shield can freely rotate around the magnet without any sticky spots IF THE MAGNET AND THE SHIELD ARE ALL ALONE!

However, the question remains if the shield is affected by the ball and refuse to rotate. Anyway here is my idea of the three positions.

Low-Q

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2010, 11:05:36 PM »
I made some drawings and I hope you see the point. I can't say if this works, but I can say that A can freely rotate around the magnet without any sticky spots IF THE MAGNET AND THE SHIELD ARE ALL ALONE!

However, the question remains if the shield is affected by the ball and refuse to rotate. Anyway here is my idea of the three positions.
I tried to simulate this in FEMM, but FEMM cannot simulate magnetpoles that is pointing "out of the computer screen" as seen in the pictures above. Do anyone have a simulator which can perform tests on the idea above?

Vidar

Rapadura

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2010, 02:13:22 PM »
I can't say if this works, but I can say that the shield can freely rotate around the magnet without any sticky spots

I didn't realized what makes the shield rotate. Gravity?

petersone

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2010, 02:58:22 PM »
Hi All
I tried that,and it's no suprise that the shield is repelled in the presents of a piece of iron,unfortunately.
peter

Low-Q

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Re: Magnet shielding and angles
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2010, 03:41:42 PM »
I didn't realized what makes the shield rotate. Gravity?
No, the idea is to use a gear. But @petersone made a simulation with the results in the post above. Too bad, but no surprise :)

Vidar