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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: detrix42 on February 11, 2010, 04:44:32 PM
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Hi, I am another person trying to replicate a Newman motor. I have a vidoe posted on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZxStFSnpp8
this works for about 30-50 seconds. I need some help understanding what I am doing wrong.
Build info:
Coil - 3285ft of 30AWG magnet wire; Resistance is at 430 ohms.
A calculated number of windings at 2788.39 Battery Pack - 12 9V in series currently reading at 93.2V
Commutator - 6in diameter, copper segments are approximately 30 degrees with 30 degrees in between.
Magnets - 1" x 7/8" dia. Neodimium (96lbs of force at the surfaces); with a couple of smaller neodimium magnets for extra kick.
Ask me if I missed anything.
I tried to post a picture but there was a server error... I will try again later.
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with 93.2v and 430ohms this calculates to .2167amps (216mA). So it should be under 100mA when running with the momentary contacts. But I am not sure what it actually is. I do not have any analog meters.
The calculated number of windings is probably more like 2600. I did not initially consider that the diameter of the coil was getting larger. :D. Anyways, I would like some help understanding why it slows down and stops.
Thanks
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Hi,
One possible explanation for the stop is that one of the 9V batteries out of the 12 'gives up' in the series bank. Have you checked how many volts remain from the 93.2V by the time it stops? Would be wise to check all the 9Vs individually while the motor is running. IT is possible that only one or two of them is the weakest and inreases too much the inner resistance of the total battery bank.
Other notice: I think that you would get better RPM if you placed the shaft from the top of the coil to the centerline of the coil so that the magnets should not protrude out at the top but would be fully immersed inside the coil --- much better induction could take place. I know you would have to care of the safeness of the wire enamel insulation, the shaft would come out in the center of the coil windings diametrically on both sides. Perhaps using a short plastic cylinder on both sides with a correct inner diameter could solve this problem, serving as a kind of "bearing" for the horizontal shaft.
rgds, Gyula
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I have another tube for another coil, but will have to wait until I can afford more wire. I am wondering why it slows when at first I get good rpm/rotation. So When I can afford the wire I will have a top coil.
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I am wondering why it slows when at first I get good rpm/rotation.
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Have you checked the batteries, as I wrote, while operating?
Another good check would be to run the motor from, say, 6 series batteries only and see how it goes.
By the way your batteries seem to be used up pretty well already because 9 times 12 gives 108V and you measured 93.2V, right? so an average voltage of 1.2V is "missing" from each 9V battery. Unfortunately, the inner resistances of such batteries are pretty high in themselves, and connecting them further in series gives further dissipation loss.
IF your motor could run on 6 9V batteries (i.e. on 54V) then you could connect the other remaining 6 batteries also in series, then this series bank in PARALLEL with the previous 6, to double the total current capacity.
rgds, Gyula
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gyulasun: Thanks for your suggestion. I did try the 2 sets of 6--9v. I am using used batteries in hopes of recharging them. So the measure voltage when stopped is currently at 48v. While running it drops to 46.6v there abouts. It ran somewhat longer, but eventually did slow down and then stop. I will video this soon and post it on youtube.
Thanks again...
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Ok I tried what gyulasun suggested, and videoed it.
Revised motor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIwbeVxFcN0
And just recently I added 2 more small neodimium magnets to the ends. this seemed to make a difference. I will video this later. (when my kids are in school :) )
Here is a pic of the added magnets.
I have also put the batteries all back in series to get about 90v out of 12 batteries.
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If you make it run faster it will put out MUCH MORE power.
To make it go faster, just adjust your Brush Position so it triggers at a different spot. Just experiment with it until you can get it to speed up.
Good luck.
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Hi, and thanks to everyone who is helping me. I have made some changes last night, and tested it this morning. The motor ran for 15 minutes without a problem. I shall do another video, showing the changes I made. But thanks again for all the help.
Ok, I took a couple of picture to show the changes now. As my second video mentions, I will have a coil on top in the near future, and I believe it will do quite well.
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Ok, my third video of my first Newman motor is up on Youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar3cxMOzKc8
I am still have problems, and will appreciate any help.
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Ok, I have my Newman motor running now as I write this. It has been running for over 20min. with this setup:
Batter pack is 2 sets of 6 9V batteries:
Pack 1 measured 49.7v no-load
Pack 2 measured 48.8v no-load
(batteries are used batteries)
Coil is 3285ft of 30awg enamelled magnet wire. Resistance is approximately 430ohms.
Calculated current is: pack 1-115.58mA
pack 2-113.49mA
Total: 229.07mA
My commutator pulses the coil 3 times per 180 degrees
So the current will be less than this. I do not have any analog meters. (yet)
Due to low voltage, RPMs are low. It has been running now for over 35min.
When I run with all batteries in series (aprox. 97v) the motor spins much faster (not very fast), but causes some back induced resistance. How do I prevent this or reduce it? See my third video on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar3cxMOzKc8
I will stop the motor after an hour and check the voltage...Done.
After 1 hour of operation battery pack 1 is down to 45.2v and
pace 2 is down to 45.0v.
hmmm....I will be ordering another spool of 30awg on tuesday Feb. 16th. Then about 5-10 days to get in delivered to me, then a couple of days to wind it by hand....talk to you all then.
detrix42
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Is there someone on this site that could tell me what I am doing wrong? I mean, with whats happening in my third video. (see previous post for link). It starts out great, but fizzles out in like 30sec. Tomorrow I plan on buying more 9V batteries. I am going to try to get around 200v worth. And wednesday I will order more wire. But why is my current setup boging down and stopping?
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Review of the Newman effect: The key with the Newman effect is to keep current density down. Current density is simply the current divided by the area cross-section of your wire. So you do not want to increase your current by a greater amount than you increase your wire's area cross-section. One must try to focus more on adding wire and focus less on getting more batteries. The only time you should be getting more batteries is if:
1) You have the current density low enough.
2) The rotor runs for a long enough time.
Is there someone on this site that could tell me what I am doing wrong? I mean, with whats happening in my third video. (see previous post for link). It starts out great, but fizzles out in like 30sec. Tomorrow I plan on buying more 9V batteries. I am going to try to get around 200v worth. And wednesday I will order more wire. But why is my current setup boging down and stopping?
My recommendation is to not use those 9 volt batteries until you have got that wire installed on your motor. That extra wire is necessary to increase the stray capacitance of your coil. You need that for the generation of back-spikes opposing the tendency of the voltage to prematurely fall. This is especially important given the very low charge capacity of 9V batteries.
Disposable 9 volt batteries can be expensive in the long run. If you cannot get the recharge effect to truly work, as I have not, it is more economical in the long run to use rechargeables. It has been said by some however that the recharge effect only works with non-rechargeables. So if you are using rechargeables, strive for mechanical output.
If you decide to switch to rechargeables, I recommend that you take a different path than I have done. I would advise you to use thicker wire (24 AWG) and D-size rechargeables. This will do several things:
1. LESS TURNS: You will save A LOT of time winding the coil.
2. LESS VOLTAGE: You will need less voltage for the same RPM.
3. MORE CURRENT CAPACITY: You need the D-size rechargeables for this.
4. MORE ECONOMICAL (vs. my approach):
* Timewise:
- Less time winding coils
- Less time hooking up batteries
- You can fit more battery volume and energy in a flex-charger that allows the charging of both AA-size and D-size batteries, so you would attend less to the battery charger for a given charge of energy.
* Costwise:
- Not using ribbon cable as a means to save time for winding.
- The energy/cost of D-size rechargeable batteries is better than AA-size and 9V-size rechargables.
If you decide to take the voltage to the limit of the wire, which may be around 300 volts, I would advise you to buy in bulk (11LB spools) in 24 AWG. This would be around 1.6 miles of wire per spool.
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Review of the Newman effect: The key with the Newman effect is to keep current density down. Current density is simply the current divided by the area cross-section of your wire. So you do not want to increase your current by a greater amount than you increase your wire's area cross-section. One must try to focus more on adding wire and focus less on getting more batteries. The only time you should be getting more batteries is if:
1) You have the current density low enough.
2) The rotor runs for a long enough time.
Is there someone on this site that could tell me what I am doing wrong? I mean, with whats happening in my third video. (see previous post for link). It starts out great, but fizzles out in like 30sec. Tomorrow I plan on buying more 9V batteries. I am going to try to get around 200v worth. And wednesday I will order more wire. But why is my current setup boging down and stopping?
My recommendation is to not use those 9 volt batteries until you have got that wire installed on your motor. That extra wire is necessary to increase the stray capacitance of your coil. You need that for the generation of back-spikes opposing the tendency of the voltage to prematurely fall. This is especially important given the very low charge capacity of 9V batteries.
Disposable 9 volt batteries can be expensive in the long run. If you cannot get the recharge effect to truly work, as I have not, it is more economical in the long run to use rechargeables. It has been said by some however that the recharge effect only works with non-rechargeables. So if you are using rechargeables, strive for mechanical output.
If you decide to switch to rechargeables, I recommend that you take a different path than I have done. I would advise you to use thicker wire (24 AWG) and D-size rechargeables. This will do several things:
1. LESS TURNS: You will save A LOT of time winding the coil.
2. LESS VOLTAGE: You will need less voltage for the same RPM.
3. MORE CURRENT CAPACITY: You need the D-size rechargeables for this.
4. MORE ECONOMICAL (vs. my approach):
* Timewise:
- Less time winding coils
- Less time hooking up batteries
- You can fit more battery volume and energy in a flex-charger that allows the charging of both AA-size and D-size batteries, so you would attend less to the battery charger for a given charge of energy.
* Costwise:
- Not using ribbon cable as a means to save time for winding.
- The energy/cost of D-size rechargeable batteries is better than AA-size and 9V-size rechargables.
If you decide to take the voltage to the limit of the wire, which may be around 300 volts, I would advise you to buy in bulk (11LB spools) in 24 AWG. This would be around 1.6 miles of wire per spool.
Ideal plan of action:
1. Install the other wire first.
2. Install the 9V batteries.
3. Turn the machine on.
4. If it does not run as you would like, reconsider the alternative (a focus on mechanical output and not electrical output).
If switching to rechargables:
5. Buy an 11 pound spool of 24 AWG magnet wire (no more than $100).
6. Build your coil.
7. Buy neodymium magnets (size 2"x1"x0.5" N42 (not N50) is the most economical: $3/each on magnet4less.com).
8. Install the magnets.
9. Build the commutator.
10. Buy a good recharger that handles D-size batteries (no more than $125).
11. Buy from one to four dozen (12 to 48) D-size rechargables (from $48 to $192).
12. Find the best way to hook up the D-size rechargables (from $6 to $24).
13. Hook the batteries to the commutator.
14. Report results.
This plan is not cheap either at $500 with 38 magnets and 36 D-size rechargables.
My progress (including only the non-wasted parts) cost more than this (even when excluding the fan and the meters):
* $400 on AA batteries and connections
* $200 on ribbon cable coils
* $250 on N50 neodymium magnets
* $125 on battery charger
That's nearly $1000. Add the fan, the uninstalled coils, and the meters, and we are talking about $1500 that I spent the past two years, plus countless hours guessing what I should do next.
You could spend 2 times less and build a system with better results than mine, using the same principles, if:
1) If you do not use a ribbon cable.
2) If you use thicker wire (24 AWG).
3) If you D-size rechargable batteries.
4) If you use N42 magnets instead of N50 magnets
Also working for you here is that the recharge effect works better with batteries having less internal resistance. Therefore, it is better to use D-size batteries.
Whether or not anyone else does this, I would start doing this $500 project myself only if I could pay for it myself with a good-paying career. I don't see that happening until later in 2010 or 2011.
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kmarinas86: Thanks for your lengthy post. I read somewhere that a 9v battery is capable of 625mA. I thought this would be enough. Though I just read up on inductance. I knew that inductance caused a back flow of current. But I see many other videos that do not slow down and stop. Most of them are the single contact pulse type.
I will probably get the 26awg wire this time, but I can not afford 10-lbs of it. At least I can't afford 10-lbs of the enameled type. hmmm...
Thanks again for your help. I hope to have another video soon.
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UPDATE:
I now have 24-9V batteries. With all in series I get about 208v (due to the first 12 being used batteries). 4th video up on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4QF5LqqlA0
WOW. Still a bit buggy, but getting there.
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Ok wow. video #5 done and up on youtube. A full 10 minute run with 2 sets of 12 9V batteries. And I have some torque. Wow. Now to get another spool of wire for the top coil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTMiReoN3F8
Thanks for all the help
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Hello. Today I ran my Newman motor for an hour. With 2 sets of 12 9V batteries in parallel. It ran for the entire hour, though a few times it seemed to slow down, but pick back up.
one issue I have now, is that the coil warmed up. Nothing to hot, just warm. Definitely to much current. So this is not a Newman setup. I ordered a spool of 26awg wire today. I think I need to redesign the commutator. hmmm.
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Hello. Today I ran my Newman motor for an hour. With 2 sets of 12 9V batteries in parallel. It ran for the entire hour, though a few times it seemed to slow down, but pick back up.
one issue I have now, is that the coil warmed up. Nothing to hot, just warm. Definitely to much current. So this is not a Newman setup. I ordered a spool of 26awg wire today. I think I need to redesign the commutator. hmmm.
Just a friendly warning, centripetal force may cause your magnets to fly off - you may want to secure them, unless you have and I just haven't seen the screw heads on the ends.
You may be able to use something other than a circular coil, ..you could bring the sides in and crate a square one - though this would mean rewinding that wire, it may increase the number of turns by maybe a dozen or so and the clearance may go down, if you do this, it would be easy to separate the coils over the top, you could just hinge one side and sandwich them over the axis.
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Just a friendly warning, centripetal force may cause your magnets to fly off - you may want to secure them, unless you have and I just haven't seen the screw heads on the ends.
The magnets are very strong neodimium, with 96 lbs of attraction on their surfaces. It will take a few hundred more RPMs to get them to fly off. I love these magnets. I like to put one on the back and front of one of my hands and feel the squeeze. Thanks for you concern though.
You may be able to use something other than a circular coil, ..you could bring the sides in and crate a square one - though this would mean rewinding that wire, it may increase the number of turns by maybe a dozen or so and the clearance may go down, if you do this, it would be easy to separate the coils over the top, you could just hinge one side and sandwich them over the axis.
A square coil is being considered. But will be after a couple of other round type. I ordered more wire, for going on top, but my current set-up needs to much current. Need to re-think somethings.
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Hello everyone. Ok. I have decided to take half of the bottom coil and put it on top. I am trying for a very nice wind, and going slowly. I will be doing this for most of today, perhaps even tomorrow.
I have 26awg wire ordered. I will make 2 coils out of it. Should be here in a day or two.
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Ok, I took some wire from the bottom coil, to make a top coil. While doing this, the wire broke. Well, it broke at a length giving me 65.4ohms, which is fine by me, so I hooked it up and tried it. The Bottom coil now measures 365ohms. I ran it with 200vdc. It ran for about one minute, slowed down, struggled for about another minute then stopped.
I am about to go out and buy a 6" diameter PVC pipe, because my 26awg wire arrived today (1257 feet of it, 57.5ohms total). I will do my best to put half on top, half on bottom, but I do not have a machine to tell me exactly when half is. At 57ohms, I will only use about 50v on it (at first).
Going to make a video of a run right now, only it will be only around 95v. If you want to see a 200v run let me know.
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quick update, I have another video up.
Part 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QcLW5y65f8
Currently hard at work building another set of coils out of 26awg (1257ft, and only 65ohms). Will make two coils out of this. About to wind the coils now...
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A square coil is being considered. But will be after a couple of other round type. I ordered more wire, for going on top, but my current set-up needs to much current. Need to re-think somethings.
Just remember that Newman's claim was voltage. :)
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Ok, I built the 2 new coils with 26 awg wire. Total resistance of both coils is now at 57.2ohms. With a 97v battery pack it ran very well, but again slowed and then stopped. So I have not made a video of this, (no change). So now I need to figure out why is it slowing? what am I missing or doing wrong. I am not ready to use graphite brushes yet. There has got to be something that I am missing. I am not trying for over unity. I want super efficient with plenty of torque. With the two coils I am getting nice torque, but it slows down and stops. Some one on youtube suggest my timing. I have tried different angles on my magnet rotor, but no difference. Arrrgh, this is getting frustrating.
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9v batteries aren't capable of creating a great deal of current, you may try using lantern batteries instead. The 6v type, ..less of them than the 9 volt, but they will give you substantially more current.
Even hooking up 2 of these would provide better source characteristics than all of thse 9v batteries.
You would be diverging from the Newman theories, but the device should still operate.
I'm not sure why the Newman device does what it does primarily on voltage, ..if you watch his videos, that massive hulking 'thing' he has - has claims would be impossible to move the rotor with the hand, but the voltage gives him the push he needs.
Then he starts his machine ...with his hand he turns the commutator. ::) :-\
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Ok, I built the 2 new coils with 26 awg wire. Total resistance of both coils is now at 57.2ohms. With a 97v battery pack it ran very well, but again slowed and then stopped. So I have not made a video of this, (no change). So now I need to figure out why is it slowing? what am I missing or doing wrong. I am not ready to use graphite brushes yet. There has got to be something that I am missing. I am not trying for over unity. I want super efficient with plenty of torque. With the two coils I am getting nice torque, but it slows down and stops. Some one on youtube suggest my timing. I have tried different angles on my magnet rotor, but no difference. Arrrgh, this is getting frustrating.
There are several reasons. For something with a tiny capacity like 9V, you will have an extremely difficult time getting it to run long. The capacity of a AA battery is at least 4 times more. Yet when I use 9 volt batteries, I would always get the same result as you. It would run for 1 hour and then after that they are dead. At that time, my "candy cane" tiny motor (AA-driven) ran up to 3 hours each time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Tlq7bLdvQ) with only 4 1.2V AA batteries. I haven't driven it using 9V there after. Then I increased my wire by several times (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f7VDImP4jI) and it would run for 6 hours. At that point it was 8 1.2V AA batteries, and power output was greater than before.
With small capacity batteries such as AA or 9V, you already need something like 1 mile of wire to get the current density down to the level of the Newman effect while still having appreciable power. At that point, using 28AWG, my current from each of the AA batteries would last 2 days. Even with that, the kind of result I got with that was a joke. At this point it was 4000 feet of wire, and it would run for two days, but it was only enough to turn my 15" fan blade at 180 rpm.
With (4.5 coils)*(4000 feet/coil), or 18,000 feet, I was able to get the 32" fan to turn at 165 rpm using 300V and 0.06A. I did this bypassing 2000 feet of wire. Doing so decreased the efficiency.
I ordered another coil recently which will bring up the total length of wire to 24,000 feet. The last two times I added coils, each time the current has been cut in half and the rpm only dropped by 10% for the same voltage, but this is with a big fan. This would imply an improvement of 50% in efficiency each time.
A more detailed analysis (using more accurate numbers) had me determine this was actually 80% improvement each time. Just recently I found that by making the coils tighter, I would get yet another improvement that is nearly as good as when I added the previous coil.
With a small fan, I don't get these results. On the contrary, my best results when using the small fan was when using 2 coils, not 3 or more. I could obtain up to 370 RPM that way, but the current was getting too much for my liking (0.06A at 229V).
With the big fan, I expect better results than this with 6 coils instead of 5. 160 RPM (equivalent to 370 RPM with the small fan, a factor of (32/19.375)^(5/3)) was achieved with 18 watts, but the next change should bring it down below 10 watts. With 1.5 coils added (6000 feet) and enough voltage, the power requirements for that same RPM should fall to 8 watts.
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There is another video where Newman has Joseph Nolfe showed how hard it was to rotate the axle. I believe what Joseph Newman meant by saying that on could not rotate his machine by hand was, it is extremely difficult to turn it by hand at the axle. That huge flywheel give one a lot of leverage. So at the axle, no. using the flywheel, yes.
I believe I am getting a inductive resistance build up. I believe I will need to use 16 to 14 gauge wire. to get the induced resistance down. So plans are being made to do just that. I have 500ft of 14awg in a coil, but not such that I can but the rotor in the center. I need to re-wind the wire into two coils. Because I am working with 4" PVC pipe (at the moment). I am thinking of using a 5 gal. bucket for the 14awg wire.
We shall see....
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There are several reasons. For something with a tiny capacity like 9V, you will have an extremely difficult time getting it to run long. The capacity of a AA battery is at least 4 times more. Yet when I use 9 volt batteries, I would always get the same result as you.
Thank you so very much for your advice. So you think that the 9v batteries are just dying, running out of current after just 30sec? It did seem to work alot better when I had two sets of 9v batteries in parallel, giving me more current capacity. But then the coil warmed up. Not what I want. I believe I need a little more current, but double was to much. Maybe.
I am considering on using the 6v lantern batteries. But I don't want to increase the current unless it is absolutely necessary. It is looking like I do need a little more though. hmmmm.....
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I have hooked up my second set of coils to about 95v (2 sets of 11 9v batteries for proper current). I am letting it run for an hour, to see if the coils heat up. After 30min, the coils are cool to the touch. ;D And it has been running steady, no slowing down and then speeding up. A more constant speed. :D
If this works -- runs for an hour without heating up -- I will make a video of it.
cheers.
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After an hour the coils remained cool. This time though the batteries heated up. I think I have a recharging effect going on ;D , but unfortunately I did not take and voltage readings...oops. But a constant speed, and no heat up has motivated me to do a second run for 2 hours.
Set-up:
2 sets of 11 9V batteries:
Pack 1 = 89.2v
Pack 2 = 86.0v
Batteries are connected in parallel to give me more current.
I don't have an analog amp meter yet. :-\
coils are made of 26 awg enameled wire, with a total resistance of 57.2ohms
I will post again in 2 hours.
8)
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:o It stopped on its own. I was not there when it did, so I do not know exactly why. I was in the next room and heard it stop. I think it ran for about 1hr and 30min. Strange this was that battery pack 1 heated up, pack 2 did not. But the voltages after the hour and a half was:
Pack 1: 79.9v a 9.3 volt drop
Pack 2: 83.5v only a 2.5 volt drop.
hmmmm....
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Eureka!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did it. Its working!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
I will make a video of it tomorrow, as its like 11:30pm, which is late for me.
HOLY COW!!!!!!!!!!! I DID IT. ITS WORKING!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hi everyone. I am going to start another thread, because I have moved on to a second motor. I consider it my second Newman motor and feel another thread would be appropriate. So when you get this far, check the other thread by me detrix42.
Cheers.