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Author Topic: My first Neman motor  (Read 14216 times)

Offline detrix42

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My first Neman motor
« on: February 11, 2010, 04:44:32 PM »
Hi, I am another person trying to replicate a Newman motor.  I have a vidoe posted on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZxStFSnpp8

this works for about 30-50 seconds.  I need some help understanding what I am doing wrong.

Build info:
Coil - 3285ft of 30AWG magnet wire; Resistance is at 430 ohms.

A calculated number of windings at 2788.39 Battery Pack - 12 9V in series currently reading at 93.2V

Commutator - 6in diameter, copper segments are approximately 30 degrees with 30 degrees in between.

Magnets - 1" x 7/8" dia. Neodimium (96lbs of force at the surfaces); with a couple of smaller neodimium magnets for extra kick.

Ask me if I missed anything.

I tried to post a picture but there was a server error... I will try again later.

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My first Neman motor
« on: February 11, 2010, 04:44:32 PM »

Offline detrix42

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2010, 04:53:52 PM »
with 93.2v and 430ohms this calculates to .2167amps (216mA). So it should be under 100mA when running with the momentary contacts. But I am not sure what it actually is. I do not have any analog meters.

The calculated number of windings is probably more like 2600. I did not initially consider that the diameter of the coil was getting larger.   :D.  Anyways, I would like some help understanding why it slows down and stops.

Thanks

Offline gyulasun

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 06:45:30 PM »
Hi,

One possible explanation for the stop is that one of the 9V batteries out of the 12  'gives up' in the series bank.  Have you checked how many volts remain from the 93.2V by the time it stops? Would be wise to check all the 9Vs individually while the motor is running. IT is possible that only one or two of them is the weakest and inreases too much the inner resistance of the total battery bank.

Other notice: I think that you would get better RPM if you placed the shaft from the top of the coil to the centerline of the coil so that the magnets should not protrude out at the top but would be fully immersed inside the coil --- much better induction could take place. I know you would have to care of the safeness of the wire enamel insulation, the shaft would come out in the center of the coil windings diametrically on both sides. Perhaps using a short plastic cylinder on both sides with a correct inner diameter could solve this problem, serving as a kind of "bearing" for the horizontal shaft.

rgds, Gyula

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2010, 06:45:30 PM »
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Offline detrix42

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2010, 07:09:17 PM »
I have another tube for another coil, but will have to wait until I can afford more wire.  I am wondering why it slows when at first I get good rpm/rotation.  So When I can afford the wire I will have a top coil.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 07:57:13 PM »
...
 I am wondering why it slows when at first I get good rpm/rotation. 
...

Have you checked the batteries, as I wrote, while operating?

Another good check would be to run the motor from, say, 6 series batteries only and see how it goes.

By the way your batteries seem to be used up pretty well already because 9 times 12 gives 108V and you measured 93.2V, right?  so an average voltage of 1.2V is "missing" from each 9V battery. Unfortunately, the inner resistances of such batteries are pretty high in themselves, and connecting them further in series gives further dissipation loss.

IF your motor could run on 6  9V batteries (i.e. on 54V) then you could connect the other remaining 6 batteries also in series, then this series bank in PARALLEL with the previous 6, to double the total current capacity.

rgds, Gyula

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2010, 07:57:13 PM »
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Offline detrix42

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2010, 08:25:11 PM »
gyulasun: Thanks for your suggestion.  I did try the 2 sets of 6--9v.  I am using used batteries in hopes of recharging them. So the measure voltage when stopped is currently at 48v.  While running it drops to 46.6v there abouts.  It ran somewhat longer, but eventually did slow down and then stop.  I will video this soon and post it on youtube.

Thanks again...

Offline detrix42

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My first Neman motor - revised video
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2010, 11:09:11 PM »
Ok I tried what gyulasun suggested, and videoed it.

Revised motor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIwbeVxFcN0

And just recently I added 2 more small neodimium magnets to the ends. this seemed to make a difference.  I will video this later. (when my kids are in school :) )

Here is a pic of the added magnets.
I have also put the batteries all back in series to get about 90v out of 12 batteries.

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My first Neman motor - revised video
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2010, 11:09:11 PM »
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Offline FatBird

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 03:16:41 AM »
If you make it run faster it will put out MUCH MORE power.

To make it go faster, just adjust your Brush Position so it triggers at a different spot.  Just experiment with it until you can get it to speed up.

Good luck.

.

Offline detrix42

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My first Neman motor update
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 11:05:27 PM »
Hi, and thanks to everyone who is helping me.  I have made some changes last night, and tested it this morning.  The motor ran for 15 minutes without a problem.  I shall do another video, showing the changes I made.  But thanks again for all the help.

Ok, I took a couple of picture to show the changes now.  As my second video mentions, I will have a coil on top in the near future, and I believe it will do quite well.

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My first Neman motor update
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 11:05:27 PM »
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Offline detrix42

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2010, 05:06:42 AM »
Ok, my third video of my first Newman motor is up on Youtube. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar3cxMOzKc8

I am still have problems, and will appreciate any help.

Offline detrix42

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2010, 01:52:23 AM »
Ok, I have my Newman motor running now as I write this. It has been running for over 20min. with this setup:

Batter pack is 2 sets of 6 9V batteries:
Pack 1 measured 49.7v no-load
Pack 2 measured 48.8v no-load
(batteries are used batteries)

Coil is 3285ft of 30awg enamelled magnet wire.  Resistance is approximately 430ohms.
Calculated current is: pack 1-115.58mA
                              pack 2-113.49mA
                               Total: 229.07mA
My commutator pulses the coil 3 times per 180 degrees
So the current will be less than this. I do not have any analog meters. (yet)

Due to low voltage, RPMs are low. It has been running now for over 35min.

When I run with all batteries in series (aprox. 97v) the motor spins much faster (not very fast), but causes some back induced resistance. How do I prevent this or reduce it?  See my third video on youtube.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar3cxMOzKc8

I will stop the motor after an hour and check the voltage...Done.
After 1 hour of operation battery pack 1 is down to 45.2v and
                                             pace 2 is down to 45.0v.
hmmm....I will be ordering another spool of 30awg on tuesday Feb. 16th. Then about 5-10 days to get in delivered to me, then a couple of days to wind it by hand....talk to you all then. 

detrix42
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 02:28:06 AM by detrix42 »

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2010, 01:52:23 AM »
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Offline detrix42

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2010, 04:11:34 AM »
Is there someone on this site that could tell me what I am doing wrong?  I mean, with whats happening in my third video. (see previous post for link).  It starts out great, but fizzles out in like 30sec.  Tomorrow I plan on buying more 9V batteries.  I am going to try to get around 200v worth. And wednesday I will order more wire. But why is my current setup boging down and stopping?

Offline kmarinas86

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2010, 05:11:01 PM »
Review of the Newman effect: The key with the Newman effect is to keep current density down. Current density is simply the current divided by the area cross-section of your wire. So you do not want to increase your current by a greater amount than you increase your wire's area cross-section. One must try to focus more on adding wire and focus less on getting more batteries. The only time you should be getting more batteries is if:
1) You have the current density low enough.
2) The rotor runs for a long enough time.

Is there someone on this site that could tell me what I am doing wrong?  I mean, with whats happening in my third video. (see previous post for link).  It starts out great, but fizzles out in like 30sec.  Tomorrow I plan on buying more 9V batteries.  I am going to try to get around 200v worth. And wednesday I will order more wire. But why is my current setup boging down and stopping?

My recommendation is to not use those 9 volt batteries until you have got that wire installed on your motor. That extra wire is necessary to increase the stray capacitance of your coil. You need that for the generation of back-spikes opposing the tendency of the voltage to prematurely fall. This is especially important given the very low charge capacity of 9V batteries.

Disposable 9 volt batteries can be expensive in the long run. If you cannot get the recharge effect to truly work, as I have not, it is more economical in the long run to use rechargeables. It has been said by some however that the recharge effect only works with non-rechargeables. So if you are using rechargeables, strive for mechanical output.

If you decide to switch to rechargeables, I recommend that you take a different path than I have done. I would advise you to use thicker wire (24 AWG) and D-size rechargeables. This will do several things:

1. LESS TURNS: You will save A LOT of time winding the coil.
2. LESS VOLTAGE: You will need less voltage for the same RPM.
3. MORE CURRENT CAPACITY: You need the D-size rechargeables for this.
4. MORE ECONOMICAL (vs. my approach):
* Timewise:
- Less time winding coils
- Less time hooking up batteries
- You can fit more battery volume and energy in a flex-charger that allows the charging of both AA-size and D-size batteries, so you would attend less to the battery charger for a given charge of energy.
* Costwise:
- Not using ribbon cable as a means to save time for winding.
- The energy/cost of D-size rechargeable batteries is better than AA-size and 9V-size rechargables.

If you decide to take the voltage to the limit of the wire, which may be around 300 volts, I would advise you to buy in bulk (11LB spools) in 24 AWG. This would be around 1.6 miles of wire per spool.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2010, 05:44:22 PM by kmarinas86 »

Offline kmarinas86

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2010, 07:04:46 PM »
Review of the Newman effect: The key with the Newman effect is to keep current density down. Current density is simply the current divided by the area cross-section of your wire. So you do not want to increase your current by a greater amount than you increase your wire's area cross-section. One must try to focus more on adding wire and focus less on getting more batteries. The only time you should be getting more batteries is if:
1) You have the current density low enough.
2) The rotor runs for a long enough time.

Is there someone on this site that could tell me what I am doing wrong?  I mean, with whats happening in my third video. (see previous post for link).  It starts out great, but fizzles out in like 30sec.  Tomorrow I plan on buying more 9V batteries.  I am going to try to get around 200v worth. And wednesday I will order more wire. But why is my current setup boging down and stopping?

My recommendation is to not use those 9 volt batteries until you have got that wire installed on your motor. That extra wire is necessary to increase the stray capacitance of your coil. You need that for the generation of back-spikes opposing the tendency of the voltage to prematurely fall. This is especially important given the very low charge capacity of 9V batteries.

Disposable 9 volt batteries can be expensive in the long run. If you cannot get the recharge effect to truly work, as I have not, it is more economical in the long run to use rechargeables. It has been said by some however that the recharge effect only works with non-rechargeables. So if you are using rechargeables, strive for mechanical output.

If you decide to switch to rechargeables, I recommend that you take a different path than I have done. I would advise you to use thicker wire (24 AWG) and D-size rechargeables. This will do several things:

1. LESS TURNS: You will save A LOT of time winding the coil.
2. LESS VOLTAGE: You will need less voltage for the same RPM.
3. MORE CURRENT CAPACITY: You need the D-size rechargeables for this.
4. MORE ECONOMICAL (vs. my approach):
* Timewise:
- Less time winding coils
- Less time hooking up batteries
- You can fit more battery volume and energy in a flex-charger that allows the charging of both AA-size and D-size batteries, so you would attend less to the battery charger for a given charge of energy.
* Costwise:
- Not using ribbon cable as a means to save time for winding.
- The energy/cost of D-size rechargeable batteries is better than AA-size and 9V-size rechargables.

If you decide to take the voltage to the limit of the wire, which may be around 300 volts, I would advise you to buy in bulk (11LB spools) in 24 AWG. This would be around 1.6 miles of wire per spool.

Ideal plan of action:
1. Install the other wire first.
2. Install the 9V batteries.
3. Turn the machine on.
4. If it does not run as you would like, reconsider the alternative (a focus on mechanical output and not electrical output).

If switching to rechargables:
5. Buy an 11 pound spool of 24 AWG magnet wire (no more than $100).
6. Build your coil.
7. Buy neodymium magnets (size 2"x1"x0.5" N42 (not N50) is the most economical: $3/each on magnet4less.com).
8. Install the magnets.
9. Build the commutator.
10. Buy a good recharger that handles D-size batteries (no more than $125).
11. Buy from one to four dozen (12 to 48) D-size rechargables (from $48 to $192).
12. Find the best way to hook up the D-size rechargables (from $6 to $24).
13. Hook the batteries to the commutator.
14. Report results.

This plan is not cheap either at $500 with 38 magnets and 36 D-size rechargables.

My progress (including only the non-wasted parts) cost more than this (even when excluding the fan and the meters):
* $400 on AA batteries and connections
* $200 on ribbon cable coils
* $250 on N50 neodymium magnets
* $125 on battery charger

That's nearly $1000. Add the fan, the uninstalled coils, and the meters, and we are talking about $1500 that I spent the past two years, plus countless hours guessing what I should do next.

You could spend 2 times less and build a system with better results than mine, using the same principles, if:
1) If you do not use a ribbon cable.
2) If you use thicker wire (24 AWG).
3) If you D-size rechargable batteries.
4) If you use N42 magnets instead of N50 magnets

Also working for you here is that the recharge effect works better with batteries having less internal resistance. Therefore, it is better to use D-size batteries.

Whether or not anyone else does this, I would start doing this $500 project myself only if I could pay for it myself with a good-paying career. I don't see that happening until later in 2010 or 2011.

Offline detrix42

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Re: My first Neman motor
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2010, 07:19:27 PM »
kmarinas86: Thanks for your lengthy post.  I read somewhere that a 9v battery is capable of 625mA. I thought this would be enough.  Though I just read up on inductance. I knew that inductance caused a back flow of current. But I see many other videos that do not slow down and stop.  Most of them are the single contact pulse type. 

I will probably get the 26awg wire this time, but I can not afford 10-lbs of it. At least I can't afford 10-lbs of the enameled type.  hmmm...

Thanks again for your help.  I hope to have another video soon.
 

 

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