Author Topic: The Ossie motor (Read 331527 times)

futuristic · « **Reply #120 on:** February 08, 2010, 07:06:16 PM »

Hi guys.

Yes the point is in the spark in the relay. The spark gets the current back to the battery.
What I have now is basically Newmans motor in a little different setup.

Please don't get too much distracted by my different setup because I think there is something very interesting going on in the original Ossie motor, because I can't explain how can Jimbot get such a good results even though his scope shots show something that should be quite inefficient motor. So something weird is definitely going on and it needs to be researched.
But I will go my own way with this setup because I understand it better and I hope I will be able to get better results easier and faster.
I hope you don't mind me posting my results in this thread even though I'm going in different direction.

Have fun.
Frenky

captainpecan · « **Reply #121 on:** February 08, 2010, 07:33:16 PM »

Quote from: futuristic on February 08, 2010, 07:06:16 PM

Hi guys.

Yes the point is in the spark in the relay. The spark gets the current back to the battery.
What I have now is basically Newmans motor in a little different setup.

Please don't get too much distracted by my different setup because I think there is something very interesting going on in the original Ossie motor, because I can't explain how can Jimbot get such a good results even though his scope shots show something that should be quite inefficient motor. So something weird is definitely going on and it needs to be researched.
But I will go my own way with this setup because I understand it better and I hope I will be able to get better results easier and faster.
I hope you don't mind me posting my results in this thread even though I'm going in different direction.

Have fun.
Frenky

By all means, keep us updated. Afterall, the whole Ossie motor was a drift from an Orbo motor. You never know what can come out of something, just don't lose your way back if it don't work out!

@Jimboot and all,
I finally got mine running and tuned so the battery is climbing in voltage. At this time I am using the original Ossie circuit, without any resistors. I increased the strength of the magnets and decreased the rotor diameter. I am using 2 shottky's to recover with, still waiting for some more shottky's to make the bridge.

Here is what I have learned so far from my setup. If I use a rechargeable battery, it still declines slowly. If I use a non-rechargeable, it increases in voltage. I have ran this now for about 12 hrs, and it is acting exactly like Jimboot's so far. I did hook it up to a 10F cap, and it declines also. I did some variation testing to see if I can pinpoint what is going on, and I'm afraid a hunch I had so far appears to be correct at least from my testing so far.

When I left the multimeter hooked to the circuit for 1 hr, the non-rechargeable battery climbed up in voltage .012 v. After 2 hrs, it climbed up another .013 v. I disconnected the multimeter and let it run for 1 hr. Briefly touching the multimeter to the battery after 1 hr showed a DECLINE in voltage of .06 v. After 2 hrs, it declined another .05v. Leaving the multimeter hooked up to the circuit for the next 1 hr ended up showing an increase of .012 v again.

Putting my results together with what we have heard from Jimboots replication, leads me to believe there is a good possibility that the multimeter is charging that battery. I still of course do not have an oscilloscope as of yet, so there is still the chance my motor is not quite tuned exactly right, but I am showing similar results to Jimboot anyway. Couple this with the fact that Jimboot just happened to kill the battery in his multimeter recently, makes me wonder if this could be what is happening.

Dont get me wrong, this is not a drawback to our building if my theory is correct about the multimeter leaching some juice into the circuit. Just simply that we may have a little better understanding of what is going on, so we can be more careful to avoid skewing our measurements, so we can tune more properly.

@Jimboot, would you mind testing this theory for me, and leave your multimeter disconnected from the circuit and let me know if it begins to decline in voltage for you again?

The rpms are about 250 rpms, but my whole rotor is to shiny at the moment for a good measurement, so I'm just eyeballing it at the moment until I dull down the shine.

solinear · « **Reply #122 on:** February 08, 2010, 08:21:36 PM »

While increasing voltage can be indicative of increasing energy, without a good measure of wattage input vs. wattage output, there's no real way to state unequivocally that you are getting more energy out than you're putting in.

Another question is, even if you are getting more output than input, how much would it cost to build it up to a point where you are producing enough energy to be usable. 1 watt is barely worth mentioning, particularly if you have to spend $150 in parts. You could consider a reasonable measure of cost to be $1.50/watt generated. If you can get it to 100 watts for $150 in parts, then you're talking about something that is not only usable, but financially feasible at a large scale. For a comparison, larger wind power setups are usually around $1.50/watt generated. Smaller systems (hundreds of watts) can be as expensive as $6-8 per watt generated and ends up being barely worth purchasing for anything other than a moral perspective unless you are in Hawaii or a similarly expensive location.

At $.03/kilowatt hour (what coal costs), here are the payback times for a power generation system:

$1.50/watt generated: 6 years (17.5% payback per year)
$2.50/watt generated: 9.5 years (10.5% payback per year)
$3.50/watt generated: 13.6 years (7.5% payback per year)
$4.50/watt generated: 17 years (5.8% payback per year)
$6/watt generated: 23 years (4.4% payback per year)
$8/watt generated: 30.5 years (3.2% payback)

So, basically, unless you can't get it down to $5/watt cost, you'll have a hard time making this system worthwhile and you'd almost be better off putting your money in a mutual fund. Basically every watt translates to $.263 per year (at $.03 per kilowatt). If you want to consider the cost of buying the electricity (retail cost vs. wholesale), then every watt translates to around $.75 per year (figuring an average of just under $.09 per kilowatt across the US). The good news is that, retail in the most expensive states, the payback rate gets better and better, until it becomes efficient even at $8/watt generated (less than a 10 year payback rate - states like Hawaii, where retail energy is in excess of $.20 per kilowatt hour).

solinear · « **Reply #123 on:** February 08, 2010, 08:27:41 PM »

Quote

When I left the multimeter hooked to the circuit for 1 hr, the non-rechargeable battery climbed up in voltage .012 v. After 2 hrs, it climbed up another .013 v. I disconnected the multimeter and let it run for 1 hr. Briefly touching the multimeter tothe battery after 1 hr showed a DECLINE in voltage of .06 v. After 2 hrs, it declined another .05v. Leaving the multimeter hooked up to the circuit for the next 1 hr ended up showing an increase of .012 v again.

This statement has me a little concerned. I'm wondering what the impact would be of just attaching a multimeter to the battery and watching the voltage for several hours.

callanan · « **Reply #124 on:** February 08, 2010, 10:34:39 PM »

Hi CP,

A multimeter when set for voltage is just a high impedance device.

Could it be that the multimeter leads with the meter's high impedance at the end is acting as some sort of dipole or REAC?

Perhaps longer leads with a variable impedance at the end would allow you to tune into the best energy recovery for this motor???

Perhaps this will allow you to get rechargable batteries to charge as well.

Many more things can be done with this motor once we start looking at the battery differently.

Would this then mean that an earth battery could run this motor indefinately as well?

How about an old dead and sulfated lead acid battery?

Regards,

Ossie

captainpecan · « **Reply #125 on:** February 08, 2010, 10:36:24 PM »

@ solinear,

While I do agree with pretty much everything you just said about financial feasibility of clean energy technologies, I do think it is a bit premature to include the work of the Ossie Motor into it at this stage. There is much more work to be done, including COP measurements, and using the torque to generate energy also. We are simply not close enough to include this work in your analogy. Afterall, MOST mone spent on research for free energy devices has no return on it all. That's just the nature of research and prototyping. But I do feel it is very much worth the few bucks to keep working on it.

As for your comment on leaving the multimeter connected to the battery. You are thinking exactly like I am. In fact I already learned that lesson a couple years ago with some capacitor experiments I was doing. I had left a 0 volt capacitor hooked to a multimeter that was turned off overnight. The next day I ended getting bit by that cap when I grabbed it wrong. So I tested it out, and the multimeter actually was charging the capacitor up to 9 v. This was simply because the multimeter was using a 9v battery. Does this happen with all multimeters, I have no idea. I just know it did with mine, but mine were not Fluke meter's either, just simple cheapo's. And I am still using cheap meters. So I do believe it will probably charge the battery directly in the right scenario. Is that was is going on with Jimboots? Don't know, just wanted to share what I believe is happening in mine.

I am not sure why it does not seem to do it with rechargeables though? It seems to only be doing it with disposables. Maybe it is something to do with the internal resistance of the battery?

Jimboot · « **Reply #126 on:** February 08, 2010, 10:36:46 PM »

@CP No probs. I got my bridge circuit running last night. No resistors atm in it tho. Back on the D cell that ran for 100hours it has been going about 8 hours now doing 300RPM. I'll disconnect the meter now and duck back home at lunch time. Man I missed this thread last night when the site was down! If it happens again you can reach me thru my Youtube channel or twitter @jimboot. Also if you just Google "ossie motor", you'll find me

Hope to catch up on some of the other reps today.

CP thanks for confirming the battery differences. I felt at one run even my scope hooked up was somehow consuming power. I don't think this current setup is tuned for charging yet maybe just low voltage drops. I'll know in a few hours. I've tried silver oxide, lithium, NiMH,SLA, alkaline & bog standard. I get the best results with last 2.

captainpecan · « **Reply #127 on:** February 08, 2010, 10:42:23 PM »

Quote from: callanan on February 08, 2010, 10:34:39 PM

Many more things can be done with this motor once we start looking at the battery differently.
Would this then mean that an earth battery could run this motor indefinately as well?

That's a very good point. I was thinking about once I get a bit further with my setup, I was going to try the earth battery. I have noticed on many documents discussing bedini's work over the years, there are many indications of an earth ground that most don't notice. If he was getting good results, then I see no reason why the same concepts would not do just as good or even better with the Ossie Motor.

woopy · « **Reply #128 on:** February 08, 2010, 11:18:57 PM »

Hello all

what an intersting thread here full of variable

theres is now 2 congigurations of the coils polarity

1-

the serial one that is for a 4 coils device - + - + - + - + which is the original Ossie's device and in this case , if you shortcut the coils you get a very strong BEMF and strong braking of the rotor, I say it is impossible to free wheel the rotor by hand. And so far i understand, in this config you have to tune the reed to insert the pulse motorising energy INSIDE the generaitve AC curve.

And in this case we have to know if the AVERAGE generative energy can overcome the TOTAL input energy ??

with this config, on my really crude testing , i am not able to get more than an average 15 % of generative back energy have you better results ??

2-

is from Jimbot 's contra serial config with - + + - - + + - where the coils are facing eachother. In this config the rotor can be almost free wheeling with shorted coils. And the extra energy comes only from the kickback spikes In this config the BEMF is almost zero and on the scope a small trace is there but nothing to do with the generative trace. But the kickback trace are very impressive.

And in this case we have to test if the very strong but very short Spikes (up to more than 200 volts) CAN BE TRANSFORMED in energy to overcome the input energy.

Yep !!!

good night

Laurent

Jimboot · « **Reply #129 on:** February 08, 2010, 11:24:11 PM »

Nice looking rig CP. HDD rotor?

Jimboot · « **Reply #130 on:** February 08, 2010, 11:25:43 PM »

Quote from: woopy on February 08, 2010, 11:18:57 PM

what an intersting thread here full of variable

theres is now 2 congigurations of the coils polarity

1-

the serial one that is for a 4 coils device - + - + - + - + which is the original Ossie's device and in this case , if you shortcut the coils you get a very strong BEMF and strong braking of the rotor, I say it is impossible to free wheel the rotor by hand. And so far i understand, in this config you have to tune the reed to insert the pulse motorising energy INSIDE the generaitve AC curve.

And in this case we have to know if the AVERAGE generative energy can overcome the TOTAL input energy ??

with this config, on my really crude testing , i am not able to get more than an average 15 % of generative back energy have you better results ??

2-

is from Jimbot 's contra serial config with - + + - - + + - where the coils are facing eachother. In this config the rotor can be almost free wheeling with shorted coils. And the extra energy comes only from the kickback spikes In this config the BEMF is almost zero and on the scope a small trace is there but nothing to do with the generative trace. But the kickback trace are very impressive.

And in this case we have to test if the very strong but very short Spikes (up to more than 200 volts) CAN BE TRANSFORMED in energy to overcome the input energy.

Yep !!!

good night

Laurent

Geez I really do have to learn how to use my scope properly! Very interesting Laurent, thanks.

woopy · « **Reply #131 on:** February 09, 2010, 12:08:17 AM »

@ Gyula

here some result of my latest config

i am now trying new coils with o.3 mm copper and 9.8 mh and 14 ohm, and the config is JB config - + + - - + + -
and so far i understand your questions i made this test

- I disconnected the plus and minus of the bridge from the circuit

and i put the scope probe on the plus and minus

basic data

one 22 micro F 400 volt across + and - of the bridge rectifier

Main battery 4.5 volts nominal alcaline at now 4.36 volts

1- without cap that is direct on scope the spikes can reach 230 volts

2- connect the cap and it charges very rapidly to up to 60 volts and than slowly up to 100

3 -i made the different testing as you suggested i put resistors acros the cap

and the results

0 ohms (direct) resistor = the cap charges to 100 volts

10 k ohms resistor = the cap charges to 3,5 volts (almost immediatel)y

20 k ohms resistor = the cap charges to 5.95 volts

47 k ohms resistor = the cap charges to about 10 volts

please let me know what the math says.. ?? is it interesting ??

good night

Laurent

gyulasun · « **Reply #132 on:** February 09, 2010, 12:17:26 AM »

@Laurent

Re on fast diodes, the best is to look for ultra fast rectifier diodes that has a reverse recovery time of less than 25-35 nanosecond. There are diodes that has 4 nanosec t_rr like 1N914 or 1N4148 but their forward current and reverse voltage limits are too low here (100mA and 80-100V). And the higher current higher voltage diodes with less than 10ns t_rr are hard to find and expensive.
Here are some links leading to some diode types that you can see where to buy from in you country:
http://www.futurlec.com/DiodesPower.shtml and see the MUR series in the middle and the High Speed series at the bottom like type RHRP860 with less than 30ns with 8A forward current and 800V reverse voltage.

ST Microelectronics also makes very fast diodes, try to find seller for their types that you may find here: http://us.st.com/stonline/products/families/diodes/ultrafast/ultrafast_rectifiers.htm

Fairchild Semiconductor is also an excellent diode maker, see here
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/sitesearch/fsc.jsp?command=eq&attr1=AAAFamily&attr2=Rectifier and again the problem usually is where can you find distributor for them. Maybe the big component sellers like Digikey, Mouser, RS Components, Farnell etc have most of these diodes.
The link above to Futurlec is also a possibility.

No need to hurry and order some exotic type though, only in case it would be justified. If you could have several 1N4148 or 1N914 types to select from, you may consider connecting them in parallel to increase forward current and in series to increase reverse voltage, or even in both combinations because they are cheap and have a 4 nanosec t_rr ! Just choose a few such types with a digital multimeter in the diode test range and check them for forward voltage to be within 15-20% to roughly double or triple the current limit of one by connecting two or three in parallel. And three in series already have about 250-300V reverse voltage rating, of course their forward voltage drop also triples but for testing higher than 100V pulses, a 2.1V or so voltage loss is negligible.

rgds, Gyula

EDIT Will comment your latest letter tomorrow, thanks.

Jimboot · « **Reply #133 on:** February 09, 2010, 02:44:39 AM »

@CP I couldn't do a great test of without multimeter as I am trying my new circuit with schottky rectifier & have not yet tuned it to run as a charger. However without the multimeter attached for 3.5 hours the voltage dropped .002V . Fairly inconclusive. When I get it going up 002v every 15 mins like I did the other night, I'll disconnect the meter & do another test. I chose these schottkies with http://jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=ZR1020&CATID=33&form=CAT&SUBCATID=388 . The circuit seems to run a bit faster. More tests tonight & hopefully get back onto my Orbie (Ossie/Orbo hybrid

) This is the scope shot with the new circuit.

Jimboot · « **Reply #134 on:** February 09, 2010, 10:28:12 AM »

@cp currently running a test. Multimeter off & running at 297RPM start of run voltage at 1.403 will report back in 10 mins.

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