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Author Topic: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art  (Read 5709 times)

Offline PaulLowrance

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Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« on: January 28, 2010, 08:05:15 PM »
I just learned of some very bad news. It appears that even the all mighty WikiPedia no longer holds weight in the court of law as far as Prior Art. The other smaller wiki's and forums, including this forum appear to be absolutely worthless where a company could patent your designs and own them.
 
 
 
Quote
A little more investigation looks like even the mighty WikiPedia is now worthless when it comes down to the court! -->
 
 Quote, "Business Week (9/4/2006 Issue 3999, p12) reported that the United States Patent & Trademark Office will no longer accept Wikipedia entries as 'accepted sources of information'"
 http://ipbiz.blogspot.com/2007/12/on-reliability-of-wikipedia-for-prior.html
 
 Quote, "On Aug. 15, the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office yanked Wikipedia from the digital toolbox its examiners use to help determine a patent application's validity."
 http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_36/c3999012.htm#ZZZ6MALU8RE
 
 Quote, "Citations of Wikipedia as actual prior art are problematic, however, due to the fluid and open nature of its editing."
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art#Pending_patent_applications
 
 Also, "In August 2006, the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) ordered examiners to stop using Wikipedia as a source of information for determining the patentability of inventions.[17]"
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_as_a_source_of_prior_art#United_States
 
 We need an alternative. Maybe your gang can come up with something that is sound in the court of law that does not cost the inventor a dime. Until then, I have no choice but to hold back all new designs and breakthroughs until this is resolved. IMO a powerful company could easily rip off any prior art posted at WikiPedia and other wiki's by patenting it.
 

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Offline Azorus

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2010, 08:31:44 PM »
Really?  WIKI is not a quotable source of valid information?  You don't say.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2010, 08:47:01 PM »
Really?  WIKI is not a quotable source of valid information?  You don't say.

That's not what I said. Learn to read.

WikiPedia provides references, which is why it is valuable.

For years WikiPedia has been used as prior art in patents *due to it's date stamps*, but no longer. That has nothing to do with valid information. As with any source, you need to check the references, which is what WikiPedia provides, but that has nothing to do with prior art for patents.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2010, 08:47:01 PM »
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Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2010, 09:15:46 PM »
A provides references, which is why it is valuable.
@all
Wikipedia is supposed to provide sources, which is okay by itself, but not always (of course--there's incomplete information through the Internet), and Wikipedia always was merely someone's opinion in any case.
Quote
For years WikiPedia has been used as prior art in patents *due to it's date stamps*, but no longer. That has nothing to do with valid information. As with any source, you need to check the references, which is what WikiPedia provides, but that has nothing to do with prior art for patents.
Right. For prior art as references, the patents themselves could be inspected at the likes of:

http://www. pat2pdf.org  and,
http://www.google.com/advanced_patent_search

The first one has more complete information, but loads and runs slowly.
The second one is faster, but not all the drawings are fully shown with lines.  Sometimes only reference numbers appear in all or part of a drawing.

--Lee

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 09:30:16 PM »
To be more specific, WikiPedia states that the references must be peer reviewed. So if someone tries to post a reference of a blog site at WikiPedia, then it will be removed. Also remember there are a lot of admins at WikiPedia, and various levels of admin. All abusers are dealt with. There IP address will be banned. If they are a hacker and have access to nearly unlimited IP's, then that Wiki page will be locked, and system admins will work on the case by contacting the ISP and go from there.

Those are the reasons why WikiPedia has worked as well as has. Nothing is perfect, but it's a great source of information.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 09:30:16 PM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2010, 09:33:29 PM »
Right. For prior art as references, the patents themselves could be inspected at the likes of:

http://www. pat2pdf.org  and,
http://www.google.com/advanced_patent_search

The first one has more complete information, but loads and runs slowly.
The second one is faster, but not all the drawings are fully shown with lines.  Sometimes only reference numbers appear in all or part of a drawing.

--Lee

Yes, patents are hold more weight, but often inventors would publish their work, prior-art, at wikipedia, and then later on use that as prior-art to file a patent. That no longer holds weight in court. I know of various online magazines that specialize in prior-art that hold weight in court, but they charge money to publish prior-art.

If you know of a free online source that holds weight in the court, then please post the source.

Thanks

Offline Azorus

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2010, 09:39:14 PM »
I don't know Paul sounds all official and all in your first post when it says the us patent office no longer considers wiki a valid referense.

And also when you say that wiki doesn't hold up in court?  Why that sounds real official that at least government sources don't consider it valid.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2010, 09:39:14 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2010, 12:55:05 AM »
WIKI has never been considered a valid source by any entity so why should the courts be any different?

This is nothing new at all.

However, art published by any means, as in this or other forums, is evidence of disclosure to the public which would make any patent application, or or patent, null and void in a contest in court.  Paul is correct in that it probably won't stop someone from getting a patent but, it would fail any challenge in court if they tried to enforce it.

Anyway, this is what my attorneys have told me.

I actually won one of these years and years ago when someone actually got a patent on a product that we were turned down for a patent for from the USPO.  The real joke is, they used to be a customer of ours and could not make this device and had to purchase 6 of them from us in order to get their patent.

Then, with patent in hand, we were served a cease and desist order to stop making something we invented and had been selling for about 12 years.  We even featured the item in our national advertising campaigns for many years as well. 

This was considered publication and since we proved that they were not the original inventor of this item, and it had been exposed to the public many years prior to their application, their patent was declared null and void.  Opps.

Bill
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 01:15:31 AM by Pirate88179 »

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2010, 03:56:03 PM »

Now that we know that it takes more than just posting prior-art at a wiki or forum, what we now need is a free or low-cost publication that specializes in prior-art that is known to be acceptable for a future patent.

Years ago I found a publication that specializes in prior-art that is acceptable in the court of law, but they charged $200. There must be a cheaper place.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2010, 03:56:03 PM »
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Offline sushimoto

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2010, 04:28:01 PM »
Now that we know that it takes more than just posting prior-art at a wiki or forum, what we now need is a free or low-cost publication that specializes in prior-art that is known to be acceptable for a future patent.

Years ago I found a publication that specializes in prior-art that is acceptable in the court of law, but they charged $200. There must be a cheaper place.

Hi Paul,
what do you think about this concept?
http://sciencecommons.org/projects/patent-licenses

Does it work in terms of "technical creativity" as well as with creative art?

best,
sushimoto

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2010, 12:04:34 AM »
Yes, patents are hold more weight, but often inventors would publish their work, prior-art, at wikipedia, and then later on use that as prior-art to file a patent. That no longer holds weight in court. I know of various online magazines that specialize in prior-art that hold weight in court, but they charge money to publish prior-art.
... If you know of a free online source that holds weight in the court, then please post the source.
Thanks
I did check several radio antenna patents.  None referenced anything but written records (IEEE papers, periodical publications, etc.)

If Wikipedia cannot be used as a patent reference, then the Wikipedia sub-references can be used as long as they're qualified as bona-fide in acceptable sources of information.  "Acceptable" is a matter of opinion, though.

Wikipedia is only one source of references and the staff at Wikipedia should check the sources for accuracy.  They do have some reputation to uphold.

--Lee

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2010, 12:04:34 AM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2010, 04:16:06 PM »
In the US a provisional patent is officially prior-art at the time of the filing. The cost at this time is $220, or $110 if you qualify as a small entity. Does anyone know who qualifies as a small entity?

http://www.uspto.gov/patents/resources/types/provapp.jsp

Personally I would submit my prior-art to a non-government entity that specializes in publishing prior-art, and then I would do a provisional patent. Hey, I just don't trust some of the people working in the patent office.

Offline ramset

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2010, 04:35:12 PM »
Paul

I have 2 questions?
!} If I come on this [or any] public forum and say .

"OK folks" grab your pen and paper I'm going to show you step by step
From start to finish .
How to build a better widget!
2]
Ok folks Grab your pen and paper
Yah know that old Tesla patent
I FIGURED IT OUT
and I'm gonna show you how he did it
step by step right here right know!!

Paul are you saying that someone can patent
example #1
example #2
??
BTW in these examples the discloser has no intent on patenting anything
Just the opposite ,the intent is to make the info unpatentable ,
Open source
can that intent be accomplished by method #1  or #2??
Chet

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2010, 04:56:15 PM »
Paul

I have 2 questions?
!} If I come on this [or any] public forum and say .

"OK folks" grab your pen and paper I'm going to show you step by step
From start to finish .
How to build a better widget!
2]
Ok folks Grab your pen and paper
Yah know that old Tesla patent
I FIGURED IT OUT
and I'm gonna show you how he did it
step by step right here right know!!

Paul are you saying that someone can patent
example #1
example #2
??
BTW in these examples the discloser has no intent on patenting anything
Just the opposite ,the intent is to make the info unpatentable ,
Open source
can that intent be accomplished by method #1  or #2??
Chet

That's a good question for someone who knows a lot about patents, which excludes someone like me. I started this thread because of what the patent office was quoted as saying.

I would say #1 is patentable, and #2 is iffy, but the point of this thread is that if a person wants to make something open-sourced, then merely posting the images & details at a forum or wiki appears to be insufficient proof for such prior art. Date stamp of wiki's and forums can be changed by admins and potential hackers.

So IMO a well backed company could ripoff such inventions, and patent them to claim them. What I would do is find some inexpensive well established acceptable publication company that specialize in prior-art, and then if it's a huge invention, like a self-runner, I would also quickly do an online provisional patent.

Publication companies that specialize in prior-art work in a law suite because they distribute your prior art in hardcopy form, magazine or CD, to thousands of people.

btw, looks like the Steorn live cameras are coming up, off & on.

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: Wiki's & forums are no good for Prior-Art
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 11:49:26 PM »
Publication companies that specialize in prior-art work in a law suite because they distribute your prior art in hardcopy form, magazine or CD, to thousands of people.
I know of only one reliable prior art site that distributes free material, and it's really old material at that:

NASA Technical Report Server
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp

All other publications that I know of with respect to my main area of interest(aerospace engineering) involve a paid subscription to a periodical.

The AIAA comes to my mind immediately.  For electronic engineering, the IEEE would probably be the organization, I believe.  They started in electrical engineering in 1884.  These two organizations are essentially nonprofit, but they cannot exist without bringing in money to sustain operations and publications---i.e., they cost money.  None are free.

--Lee



 

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