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Author Topic: Magnet motor in Argentina  (Read 207660 times)

ewitte

• Newbie
• Posts: 49
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #570 on: April 10, 2006, 01:16:38 PM »
I wonder when they will get those new batteries out?  It would be easy enough to power the house by just throwing 100KG of those (130KW) into a hybrid car and charging the house up each night.

orionjf

• Newbie
• Posts: 31
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #571 on: April 10, 2006, 01:51:09 PM »
....
But- if you look at the interaction of the stator magnets with the rotor, because the rotor has moved, it is resisting the stator magnet's return more strongly
than it was assisting its elevation.
? You will find that the amount by which those two forces differ is the same as the forward force on the rotor.
That?s right. It was happen in my model. Also I agree that the main issue is the "recover" cycle that has two actions: lifting (no problem and a very small interaction with rotor) and pushing down (all problems). This cycle involves z component mainly, that is just not calculate by FEMM, unless we simulate z-x plane and z-y plane separated. The "torque cycle" has not problems and works: holding by hands the rotor and stators in the ideal point, the torque is good. The problem is to recover this ideal point ... by itself.
I agree treb79 too talking about springs. I guess it is more important timming, even if you recover only a portion of energy due to non-linear behaviour, losses, etc, but recover at time. If you recover all but not in time I think it will be worst.

Maybe, there is another thing that can help. If you see original model pictures, the stator case is so long (I think ..), that is, the distance between its axis (rotation up-down) and the face in front of rotor. I built a shorter (compared) stator (see my pictures) and I think it is wrong (my model). As long as the stator less force you need to push down due to it is multiplied by stator lenght for getting the same work. There is a very easy test pushing down stator by hand at differents point of pressure (different distances). But long stator implies higher distance to lift and down because the work is the same. The limit, from my point of view, is timming again: we can reduce the force to push down (with the same work) but there is a time to do it useful that limits the distance that stator has to cover and then, the stator lenght. Another parameter to cook ... and another parameter that goes round timming. It seems if a timming is given all design parameters are fixed...Only one asyncronous parameter could stop the device.
Regards

orionjf

• Newbie
• Posts: 31
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #572 on: April 10, 2006, 02:42:56 PM »
I start to think about "a little bit of help" from outside for working properly. A little bit energy to force timming (more important than the order of magnitude of the energy applied that can need the device). It is not "bad" if this energy is less than the device can provide using this help.....

All simulations are welcome and can help to understand the device. I really appreciate Tao work and every idea or suggestion from everybody. Only to do nothing is not good.
Regards

silverdragonrs

• Full Member
• Posts: 104
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #573 on: April 10, 2006, 09:55:45 PM »
i had concidered that earlier georgemay and had desided to save it for future models after a working model was in my possesion. but by al means drw it up and the details can be worked out.... i would recomend starting a new thread for it though as your ideas may be confused by any new readers. they may think that this is part of the original torbay motor........ (just an idea ) i think we should start a new thread for torbay magnet motor improvements all together to save on all this confusion going on in here..... i beleive this thread was to learn, understand, and replicate the original torbay motors..... as they work as is....

i am not descoraging further development at all i am incouraging it.... just on a seperate thread

danny

hartiberlin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 8012
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #574 on: April 10, 2006, 10:35:53 PM »
There is always more than one stator magnet down in the gap,
so it is easy to lift the old one up.
If you want to lift the old stator magnet the next
one is already half way down, so it requires less force to lift
the old up.
So all in all the lifting back into the stator circle requires
less energy than you get from the rotor magnet torque.

I will show this in a few FEMM simulations soon.

So all the skeptics have not yet understood the motor concept.

Regards, Stefan.

Jdo300

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 682
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #575 on: April 10, 2006, 11:10:21 PM »
Quote
There is always more than one stator magnet down in the gap,
so it is easy to lift the old one up.
If you want to lift the old stator magnet the next
one is already half way down, so it requires less force to lift
the old up.
So all in all the lifting back into the stator circle requires
less energy than you get from the rotor magnet torque.

I will show this in a few FEMM simulations soon.

So all the skeptics have not yet understood the motor concept.

Regards, Stefan.
If I may add to what Stefan is saying, if you can imagine a stator ring with 10 magnets in it, if they all have the north poles facing in, then naturally if you rotate one of them up out of the ring, the repulsive force from all the other magnets will want to force it out; and naturally, it would be hard to reset the single magnet back into the ring. It's like releasing a compressed spring and then trying to push it back again. But if we go with the idea Stefan is presenting, then imagine not one but maybe three stator magnets lifting at a time in a sort of wave fashion, where the middle magnet of the three would be lifted the highest (crest of the wave) while the two on either side of it would be half-lifted up, that way the total repulsive force is divided between the three magnets instead of just one.

Could someone who has tested the design tell me how far the magnet needs to be lifted to create the imbalance? Do the magnets have to be lifted one magnet length above/below the ring, or is just a slight deviation enough to cause rotation?

God Bless,
Jason O

orionjf

• Newbie
• Posts: 31
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #576 on: April 11, 2006, 02:49:08 AM »
Tao, in my simple tests, I?d always found a resistance to push down a stator even with the next stators (3 or more) lifted if rotor is close to it. And more, the resistance is not a relevant function of close stators (almost irrelevant) but there is a strong dependence of rotor position. (it?s different for lifting). The rotor position is the first and more important resistance for pushing down the stator (it is what I observed). Then, consider the MAX-POINT when the rotor is just in front of the stator that is lowering. At MAX-POINT if stator is lowering (forcing it by hand in a "static" analysis), torque is very strong (even "violent", capable to do a completed turn alone if you released it with stators lifted). This is the max of torque that you have to get in simulations too. At this point, resistance has a maximum too, and the friction (in my model, a rough model without wheels in stators so far) brakes the stator. Then consider a little change from this point:
- Stator before this point, the resistance decreases but torque decreases too much because you are putting a stator lowered "before" the rotor. (Check your sims)
- Stator after this point, the resistance decreases, torque is a little bit lower (both are better conditions) but rotor almost "escapes" to gap, then the cap ramp have to be built with a very accurate way and tuning it (my model is too rough to it).
In any case, I agree with you it is better to have 2 or even more stators lifted.
I think we have to take a special care for building some parts (that is I learnt working with the first model): reduce friction between cap and stators, cap ramp shape (if variable, better for tunning), stators length and, in any case, variable point for lifting and lowering. Even can be good to use a few stators for a more comfortable work until the device works in this area properly.
Regards.

silverdragonrs

• Full Member
• Posts: 104
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #577 on: April 11, 2006, 03:23:16 AM »
in short for everyone else tuning in.... keep your "weel arm" (the arm that lifts you stator magnets up to create the gap)...... keep it adjustable so you can move it to the best location for fine tuning. a good starting point is v degrees (tao please fill in the *v*) from the center of the rotor magnets.

eavogels

• Full Member
• Posts: 159
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #578 on: April 11, 2006, 09:48:14 AM »
Hi.

Allthough this is my first message in the thread, I read ALL postings so I did do my homework.

I did think about the 3 lifted magnets: One going up, one up and one going down.
Does did not just bend the repelling ring, and not break it? If it only bends the ring, it is still a loop.

Eric.

treb79

• Newbie
• Posts: 19
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #579 on: April 11, 2006, 11:03:20 AM »
Actually, you can simulate the whole thing in femm, forces on stator magnets and rotor by arranging the displaced stator magnets as in Torbays patent drawing, instead of lifting the stator magnet.

treb79

• Newbie
• Posts: 19
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #580 on: April 11, 2006, 04:12:31 PM »
Quote
What would happen is, there would be 2-4 stators ALWAYS LIFTED at their maximum height wtih no other stators lifted, so the 'loop' is broken.

Then one of the stators would go down and one would come up to this maximum position, and it is at this time that there 'might' be a 'loop' situation, BUT what happens in a loop situation?? The rotor is TORQUE-LESS, BUT it isn't MOMENTUM-LESS! So the enormous torque on the rotor would easily guide it through IF there was a momentous 'loop' situation, which I don't think will occur.

OR (the prefered condition) etc. etc.

why don't you femm the whole thing as I suggested? Apart from building the thing and extensively testing different configurations, anything else is pure guess work.

treb79

• Newbie
• Posts: 19
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #581 on: April 11, 2006, 04:49:00 PM »
actually, I don't see an awful lot of difference between sliding a stator magnet in and out as in Torbay's patent drawing(2d), and lifting a magnet up and down(3d).  just try it with some real magnets. or model a row of magnets in either configuration to see what the differences are, if any. That can be done in 2d.

treb79

• Newbie
• Posts: 19
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #582 on: April 11, 2006, 04:54:54 PM »
just try it and see

Duranza

• Full Member
• Posts: 119
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #583 on: April 11, 2006, 04:58:18 PM »
This thing works better when the stator magnets are on hinges moving up and down rather than taking it out. It takes less force to push it up than to pull it out. I got a small prototype built with 1/8 sq. neos and it almost want's to work. I don't have the rotor cap made yet but when i push down on a magnet it makes it rotate like 30-45 degrees. I'm on the quest of getting a video camera so i can post video of it.

treb79

• Newbie
• Posts: 19
Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #584 on: April 11, 2006, 05:15:27 PM »
Great, at last, someone with some real results. Excellent.  Looking forward to see your video.

actually, it does take less effort to move the stator magnets up and down the same distance as if you were moving them in and out. But you  have to move them in and out a smaller distance to obtain the same effect on the rotor.  It can be modelled in 2d, just move out the stator magnets less than if you were moving them up and down.