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Author Topic: Magnet motor in Argentina  (Read 188619 times)

Offline orionjf

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #420 on: April 06, 2006, 02:04:57 PM »
Dear friends,
Congratulations for everybody!!! I think it is a great work and it?s very nice to share it.
I?d a lot of simulations and I?m filling a document with results (my problem is time :-\)
I agree with harti and Tao results at a first view with some additional (and important, I think) remarks:
1.- Force (and torque) changes with relative position between rotor-stator-gap. There is a period shape with peaks and valleys force.
2.- Maybe, the force (and the torque, and, more important, the energy) is greater with separated magnets in stator because the space (and the time) with "peaks" field is greater and the integral (work) is greater. That means you have less field (with separated magnets) but you have more time (space) that it is useful. I guest there will be a optimal distance but there are a lot variables that affects it. I expect to get data to confirm this (it is only a "theory" based on no systematic simulations)
3.- There is an optimal point to hold down the stator magnet just in a valley force instant. At this time, there is a peak of kinetic energy in the rotor that is used to hold down without a strong resistance. Think in a pendulus: peak of gravity potential energy mgh can be equivalent to peak of magnetic force and the peak of kinetic energy (1/2mv2) is quivalent to the same in the rotor.
Another "warning" is about materials. Conductors (aluminium, for instance) will have strong currents when the rotor (a magnet) moves. Remember Harti animated draw in S.Mark issue. There is a very simple and illustrative experiment: the Lenz pipeline; drop a small magnet (cylinder) inside a cupper pipeline(no magnetic material) (1m long for instance) holding vertical. The magnet is braked (even stops in some instants). (Magnet diameter must be closely to pipeline diameter). So conductors could brake the rotor ... from my point of view.
I expect the above remarks can help a little bit ...
Regards.

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #420 on: April 06, 2006, 02:04:57 PM »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #421 on: April 06, 2006, 02:07:52 PM »
tao, that?s awesome. Thanks a lot for the pics. I would be beside myself even if I see the rotor making full turns at 10 rpms. Just seeing such rotor turn goes against everything the world has been told regarding these machines.

Your solution with springs seems simpler but I agree with Stefan that there may be a problem with the lifting design of the motor cap.  Probably it should be smoothed out at the two ends. Also, shouldn?t the lifting be more sudden than the descending (although such asymmetry may cause problems at high rpm)?

The rectangular shape of the stator magnets being better than having concave face is puzzling me too.

Offline 2tiger

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #422 on: April 06, 2006, 02:36:45 PM »
Hello all
The last day I?ve been reading this tread about the Torbay Motor, trying to understand its function.
What I see is different to that what you are talking about.
Please tell me if I?m wrong and excuse my bad englisch.

I found that the best and most interesting picture of the motor is that with the wooden prototype. There you can see the rotor-arm. Regarding the shadow of it, it seems to be a half-circle. So I don?t think that the rotor is lifting one (one of seven!) magnet-arm at a time. The rotor lifts tree or four magnet arms at a time.
In both cases there is a desequilibrium because there are tree magnets (down) and four magnets up and vice versa.

Then I read you talking about the sticky point. Long time ago I try to design my own magnet-motor. When you have a magnet on the rotor north-sided to the stator and on the stator you four magnets (12, 3, 6, 9 o?clock)  north sided to the rotor, you will notice that between every magnet on the stator there are sticky points.
I think that the Torbay motor has the same `problem?.

And now let me think about the ring magnet in the rotor. You wrote that it is south-north trough the diameter. So the only way there can be a torque is when the north-half of the ringmagnet ist facing to the magnets-arm that are down, so that repulsion can create a torque.
But the south-half of ringmagnet is facing to the upper magnetsarm that where lifted by the created torque by repulsion. Here you have an atraction, south of the ringmagnet to the lifted northpoles of the lifted arms.
So you need to produce enough torque to lift up tree magnets-arms that are cought by the atraction of the ringmagnet.

See U

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #422 on: April 06, 2006, 02:36:45 PM »
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Offline silverdragonrs

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #423 on: April 06, 2006, 03:23:16 PM »
tao i believe that is the most understandable.... acurate description of this motors functions to date. if you are currect in that the south end will seek the midpoint then i agree with the use of a disk magnet polarised as you say. I don't know figures and terms but i do know mechanics and 3 demensional behavior in machinery. I believe that the first prototype should include the disk magnet.

omnibus, tao, hartiberlin - you all seem to have a grasp on magnetics... could you give me a simple explenation as to the differance between concave and square north ends on the stator magnets in this case. please.

danny

tjanzer

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #424 on: April 06, 2006, 03:38:31 PM »
Tao,

The graphics are great! I would like to mention something about the springs. I think the springs should be used to help bring the stator magnet back in line with the rest. I think there will be more resistance in lowering it back into place than lifting it. You will probably have help in lifting it by the repulsive force. The design I am working on is upside down from yours, where the stator magnets are lowered out of the way instead of lifted. It will be easier for the introduction of springs. I am also looking into putting a track for the stator magnets to ride in. This way, they will be directed in both up and down directions.

TJ

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #424 on: April 06, 2006, 03:38:31 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #425 on: April 06, 2006, 03:43:42 PM »
silverdragonrs, I agree with you that tao?s explanation is very convincing and one of the best. As for concave surface, it is a surface curved inward ? imagine the inner surface of a glass. One would think that stator magnets with concave front surfaces would be the best in such construction because put together will best approximate an inner circle which will be equally outstanding everywhere from the outer surface of the magnetic rotor. Not so, turns out. tao?s and Stefan?s simulations using FEMM showed that flat facing surfaces of the stator magnets would provide more torque. 2tiger gave an explanation but I still think it?s puzzling.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #426 on: April 06, 2006, 03:48:17 PM »
tjanzer, do you think at high rpms the lifting by the repulsive force would be reliable enough to ensure proper lifting? Synchronized lifting at just the same height is crucial for the functioning of the device. Otherwise, it would be great ? I never liked the spring idea. Would rather see it with small wheels and a ramp. Too many additional details, though.

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #426 on: April 06, 2006, 03:48:17 PM »
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Offline dutchy1966

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #427 on: April 06, 2006, 03:50:15 PM »

Also, with the kind of torque we have seen in the FEMM modeling it is very hard to believe that this motor wouldn't work. .

Tao

Tao,

It seems from my femm calculations that you even get A LOT more torque when you lift more stator magnets ahead of the rotor. Can you please verify this with your femm models.
If I modify HartiBerlin models I get torques up to about 14 N/m instead of around 5 N/m!! The simulation lifted about 4 of the 8 magnets AHEAD of the rotor.
Femm model is attached....

thanx!

Dutchy1966

tjanzer

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #428 on: April 06, 2006, 03:56:15 PM »
Omnibus,

I just think you might need springs to help with the work to overcome the repulsive forces. I really don't like them either but at this point it sort of makes sense. Until my model is finished, I won't know if they are required. I am just looking into the drag of the motor and I think most of it naturally comes from the lifting and lowering of the stator magnets. Whatever could be used to reduce this drag will help performance.

TJ

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #428 on: April 06, 2006, 03:56:15 PM »
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tjanzer

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #429 on: April 06, 2006, 04:05:02 PM »
Omnibus,

Also, to answer your first question. At higher RPM the repulsive force may not be enough to complete the task. This is why I am using a track for the stator magnets. It is the same as using two top plates as in Tao's drawings and have the stator mags ride inside.

TJ

Offline 2tiger

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #430 on: April 06, 2006, 04:07:14 PM »
Tao
The stator is lifted at between south and north of the arc/semicircle, it is now balanced, because it wants to get to the midpoint.
Now that this stator magnet is lifted, let us take him away and take look what happens. The rotor is still balance.
The other midpoint of the arc/semicircle faces a statormagnet (N) that is down -> no torque, couse of the balancing to the midpoint
The south side of the ringmagnet faces to a statormagnet (N) ?-> attraction
 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +
The north side of the ringmagnet faces to a statormagnet (N) ?-> repulsion
 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? =
 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? no torque
I don?t still see any unbalance in this setup, that is needed to produce a torque.
Sorry but I try to understand, in order to help you all, if there are problems.

regards
2tiger



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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #430 on: April 06, 2006, 04:07:14 PM »
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Offline silverdragonrs

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #431 on: April 06, 2006, 04:19:07 PM »
the problem (easely overcome) with the track omnibus is that as the arm lifts the weel will move away from the track.... just pointing out the obvious somethimes we get so caught up in the details we forget the basics :)

tjanzer - i don't think up or down will be a problem.... any help down is good to reduce friction as the rotor cap drags along the top of the stator magnet but the cap/rotor shouldn't have much trouble getting the magnet down again as hartiberlin said the next magnet in the chain is on its way up wich should weeken the feild enough to allow the previous stator magnet to be pushed down effortlessly.

i dont know much about magnetic fields as in your femm simulations so could somebody tell me if i can sub magnet one (image provided) as the rotor magnet (create a ring with them in my rotor) i can not find a disk magnet at all much less one like you all describe.

Offline silverdragonrs

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #432 on: April 06, 2006, 04:27:14 PM »
correction i have found a ring magnet........ if you take apart a floppy disk drive inside the motor is a ring magnet ...... would this work in the rotor i dont know how its poles work  either......

tjanzer

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #433 on: April 06, 2006, 04:59:38 PM »
Silverdragonrs,

Per attached drawing. N2 is on the way up. N3 is up and on the way down.
As N2 rises, it is helped by N1 and opposed by N3.
As N3 lowers, it is opposed by N2 and then opposed by N4.
Once N2/N3 are past midpoint, they will help each other but N3 is still opposed by N4.
(oops, I think the direction arrow is the wrong way).

This is why I think you may require springs to return the stator in line.

TJ

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #434 on: April 06, 2006, 06:09:14 PM »
@tjanzer
yes, springs would be better into the direction to push
the lifted stator magnets again back into the track.

@Tao
yes I agree totally with your description of the fields.
I did a simulation with just the stator magnets without the rotor in it
and when 1 stator
magnet is away  the field looks like a "bar-magnet"....
so the rotor magnet surely wants to turn by 90 degrees to align with this
pseudo "bar-magnet". So the disc magnet is really the best solution and
the easiest, cause we can buy disc magnets with a hole in the center
and this will also have the lowest unbalance ( this is better than several
magnets on a rotor which have to be balanced with additional weights).

I hope Tao can soon make an animation with Bryce, so we can show the world
how the motor will work and everybody understands it much better.
Tao, if you can provide a few rendered highres pics, I can compress them into a AVI movie
or GIF animation.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

 

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