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### Author Topic: Magnet motor in Argentina  (Read 210313 times)

#### orionjf

• Newbie
• Posts: 31
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #135 on: March 27, 2006, 04:23:08 PM »
In a first analysis, I?ve to agree with Gonzo in some details. I try to explain ...
Repulsion forces, every time, can be splitted in two components: one in the radius direction (to the center) that is compensated by the magnet radius material, and another one tangent (the "goal" or "net" force). The net force is Frep*sin(alpha), alpha (function of time) is the angle between the final repulsion force (or total vectorial sum repulsi?n force between each stator and the rotor magnet). It is very clear that Frep*sin(alpha) is EVER less (or equal) than Frep.
Consider the initial state. All forces components by M3, M2 and M1 are axial (sin(alpha)=0) and the only net componet is due to M16 (and M15 ....) with sin(alpha) greater when the magnet is more remote but at the same time less modulus force, or greater modulus force (M16) with sin(alpha) close to 0 (it?s very clear that the main force component is axial in the nearest -M16- magnet). Whe rotor starts to move, a net tangent force due to M1 appears (a little force because sin is close to 0) and force due to M16 begin to come down down in modulus (due to the distant) but increment by sin (we have to complete the exact calculus). In any case, I see Frep as the maximum force at any time (or I lost something).
Then, the forces involved in changes (stator lift and down). I see "easy" to lift if all magnets are with the same pole position (even, the system gives energy to you) but for pushing (down) the magnet you need TWO Frep*cos(alpha) from alpha 45 or greater to alpha=0 (exactly in the circle). That means in the final time, to push magnet, you need 2*Frep. If you have a mechanism for pushing the magnet, you have the same problem for lifting in this case.
There is another way to see it. Using energies ... In the initial state, there are another state with less energy and rotor moves to it. The energy difference must be used for two things: to move the rotor and to create another state with less energy that allows the rotor another movement (in other words, recover the initial status energy). Then the rotor HAS to gain another kind of energy for that not only cinetic, but, for instant, potential (or whatever you want). (I?ve built a similar machine several years ago using gravitatory and magnetic energies, as a pendulus forced, transforming one in the other in a cycle). It seems a perpetual machine, and works, but if you extract a very little portion of energy, the system fall down. Then, the problem is not to create a state with positive energy transition (initial state to the next). The problem is to recover it (opposite cycle). I?m sure magnets HAS TO do it, but how? My best wishes to who find it, maybe this device if I wrong (that is possible, of course).
Regards

#### hartiberlin

• Administrator
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8018
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #136 on: March 27, 2006, 04:34:48 PM »

So if M4 = M5 the repulsion forces they produce are equals as well aren't they?

So if both forces are equal witch force will make it move?

Start condition is always, that? one magnet at least is always out of the ring,
otherwise it will not work.
Here is the sequence:
So M4 is down and as the rotor moves to it,
M5 goes down and M4 goes up and closes the ring again.
Then the rotor will move forward to position?M5 and M6 will go down and
M5 will go up and close the ring again.

So at least one outer magnet is always down and sometimes in the
transition of the rotor both stator magnets which are next to each other
are half down.

#### hartiberlin

• Administrator
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8018
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #137 on: March 27, 2006, 04:44:47 PM »
@orionjf
maybe you can draw up your force diagram and can post it here
as an attachment ? Otherwise your argumentation is hard to understand.
Many thanks.

#### orionjf

• Newbie
• Posts: 31
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #138 on: March 27, 2006, 04:49:16 PM »
@orionjf
maybe you can draw up your force diagram and can post it here
as an attachment ? Otherwise your argumentation is hard to understand.
Many thanks.
Ok, I?ll try to draw it this night.

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #139 on: March 27, 2006, 04:53:23 PM »
Quote
Yes, I agree that it would be of great interest if the device would spin continuously.  But I was looking farther down the road to see if it could be made into something really useful to generate power.  It is very doubtful that this device could do that on a useful level.  But perhaps the knowledge of this device will lead to something that will perform better in the future?

You?ve put it very mildly. If the device spins continuously on its own, without energy input from the outside, it will be a revolution in science of unknown proportions. Revolutions ins science, not to speak about revolutions of such proportions, would cause such profound changes in society which go well beyond anybody?s imagination.

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #140 on: March 27, 2006, 04:54:16 PM »
Thanks, Stefan, I'll have to look more carefully into it.

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #141 on: March 27, 2006, 04:54:43 PM »
Quote
Consider the initial state. All forces components by M3, M2 and M1 are axial (sin(alpha)=0)

This is not evident and because of that this part of your arguments fails.

Quote
but for pushing (down) the magnet you need TWO Frep*cos(alpha) from alpha 45 or greater to alpha=0 (exactly in the circle).

No, powering of the magnet (pushing it down, as you put it) is spontaneous ? no energy is spent by the motor. It can occur under the action of gravity, for instance. Therefore, the conclusion you make is incorrect.

Quote
There is another way to see it. Using energies ... In the initial state, there are another state with less energy and rotor moves to it. The energy difference must be used for two things: to move the rotor and to create another state with less energy that allows the rotor another movement (in other words, recover the initial status energy). Then the rotor HAS to gain another kind of energy for that not only cinetic, but, for instant, potential (or whatever you want).

Indeed, ?The energy difference must be used for two things: to move the rotor and to create another state with less energy that allows the rotor another movement (in other words, recover the initial status energy).? Presumably, such energy is available ? it?s the energy equal to the integral of the combined magnetic force (that pushes the rotor magnets) over the distance to the next position of the rotor facing three magnets. Probably even more than that energy is available (because, say, you have used super strong magnets).

Quote
(I?ve built a similar machine several years ago using gravitatory and magnetic energies, as a pendulus forced, transforming one in the other in a cycle). It seems a perpetual machine, and works, but if you extract a very little portion of energy, the system fall down.

Now, that?s interesting to see. If you have made it rotate due to a clever combination of magnetic and gravitational forces then that would be it. Do you have a video of it?

Quote
Then, the problem is not to create a state with positive energy transition (initial state to the next). The problem is to recover it (opposite cycle). I?m sure magnets HAS TO do it, but how?Huh My best wishes to who find it, maybe this device if I wrong (that is possible, of course).

Presumably, in Torbay?s case you more than recover the energy spent for lifting the magnet and turning the rotor. Suppose you?ve used very strong magnets with proper shape and have placed them in a proper position.

#### jbh

• Newbie
• Posts: 17
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #142 on: March 27, 2006, 04:58:09 PM »
You?ve put it very mildly. If the device spins continuously on its own, without energy input from the outside, it will be a revolution in science of unknown proportions. Revolutions ins science, not to speak about revolutions of such proportions, would cause such profound changes in society which go well beyond anybody?s imagination.

if there is no energy coming from outside, where does the generated energy comes from?

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #143 on: March 27, 2006, 05:00:31 PM »
Quote
Quote
@orionjf
maybe you can draw up your force diagram and can post it here
as an attachment ? Otherwise your argumentation is hard to understand.
Many thanks.
Ok, I?ll try to draw it this night.

I thought you implied you have a working model and this got me excited. While diagrams are interesting and are good as intelectual challenge, no diagram can substitute a working model. Have you ever had a working model or can you rebuild it, if you don't have it now, and show it in a video?

#### hartiberlin

• Administrator
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8018
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #144 on: March 27, 2006, 05:04:43 PM »

if there is no energy coming from outside, where does the generated energy comes from?

The energy comes from cooling down the magnets and thus cooling down
the air around the magnets.
Just a another "second law" violation, nothing more.

It is a closed loop circle process, the light bulb running on the generator
ouput again
produces heat, so heat is just going around in a circle,
in the Torbay motor it is extracted via the magnets from the air and the surrounding
and in the electrical bulb loads it is again fed back to the environment.

This is the optimal "green" energy cycle with no bad pollution.

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #145 on: March 27, 2006, 05:06:02 PM »
Quote
Quote
You?ve put it very mildly. If the device spins continuously on its own, without energy input from the outside, it will be a revolution in science of unknown proportions. Revolutions ins science, not to speak about revolutions of such proportions, would cause such profound changes in society which go well beyond anybody?s imagination.

if there is no energy coming from outside, where does the generated energy comes from?

This we will discuss later. Let?s first see a self-sustaining device. If indeed one can demonstrate a self-sustaining device this may mean the law of conservation of energy has exceptions. Then the question you ask will be irrelevant.

Recall that the law of conservation of energy hasn?t been always an unchallenged law ? it has taken 20 years to have Mayer publish his paper on concervation of energy against the fierce resistance of the science at that time.

#### _GonZo_

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 68
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #146 on: March 27, 2006, 05:08:24 PM »
OK I just thought another way to look at the device.

just think and try to give me an answer:

What force move magnet M4 out of the ring?

If the answer is your hand: sorry but you are adding energy to the system so no overunity...

If the answer is the mechanical sistem of the device: sorry again, but the strength of the spring is the same or bigger that the repulsion it creates if not the magnet will move away from the ring...

Sorry I think I did the wrong question here, may be it is easyer to understand looking at the picture this question:

What force move magnet M5 out of the ring?

M5 is the next magnet, so to move M5 away you need a force bigger than the repulsion of M4, becasuse M5 spring force sholud be equal or bigger than M5 repulsion force.

And again we are with the same problem M4 and M5 are the same strength...

#### Omnibus

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 5330
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #147 on: March 27, 2006, 05:12:33 PM »
Quote
Quote
if there is no energy coming from outside, where does the generated energy comes from?

The energy comes from cooling down the magnets and thus colling down
the air around the magnets.
Just a another "second law" violation, nothing more.
It is a closed loop circle process, the light bulb running of the generator again
produces heat so heat is just going around in a circle,
in the motor it is extracted via the magnets from the air and the surrounding
and in the loads it is again fed back to the environment.

This is the optimal "green" energy cycle with no bad pollution.

This is something I?m not sure of. Even if we suppose that heat is turned into useful work more efficiently than we know now, that work would be much less than the work produced by the motor to light up a lamp. Don?t forget that even production of power on the order of 2 kW is being claimed.

If this indeed is a self-sustaining device it will demonstrate a violation of the first principle of thermodynamics, not of the second.

#### hartiberlin

• Administrator
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8018
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #148 on: March 27, 2006, 05:13:28 PM »
@Gonzo:
The springs store the energy and feed it back!

Read this message several times and then it will hopefully
get clear to you:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,866.msg5593.html#msg5593

#### hartiberlin

• Administrator
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8018
##### Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #149 on: March 27, 2006, 05:18:43 PM »

This is something IÃ‚â€™m not sure of. Even if we suppose that heat is turned into useful work more efficiently than we know now, that work would be much less than the work produced by the motor to light up a lamp. DonÃ‚â€™t forget that even production of power on the order of 2 kW is being claimed.

If this indeed is a self-sustaining device it will demonstrate a violation of the first principle of thermodynamics, not of the second.

Hi Omnibus,
the first law is always correct, otherwise the universum
would have been collapsed.

It is really just a conversion of 2nd law energies, that means
heat is converted to mechanical energy and then into electrical energy
and in the load back to heat, so it is just a cycle of heat being used very
efficiently.
It is pretty simple, but the hard part is to convert heat to mechanical
energy on this efficient way.
There are other ways to convert heat to mechanical energy like in
this upper example with the flying vortex ring.
ALso tornados gain their huge mechanical energy by cooling down
the air around them via the vortex and extract this way their deadly
rotating energy.