Actually they have sent to hell Omnibus  Grin Grin Grin as well in another post because they have not understand what he says...

The problem was that the topic http://www.hispaseti.org/foroWanaH/viewtopic.php?t=3314&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0. is closed and I couldn?t post there. I saw another topic http://www.hispaseti.org/foroWanaH/viewtopic.php?p=34915#34915 which seemed to be devoted to the motor in question and I kindly asked them to help me in understanding the principle and finding contact info of the inventor. Instead of addressing these issues they ?sent me to hell? as _GonZo_ puts it and the conversation went nowhere. Of course, unjustified negativism will do nothing more than make the person even more ambitious in getting to the bottom of it.

Now we already know the principle of action of the motor and it doesn?t seem unreasonable as the colleagues from the Spanish forum seemed to unjustifiably imply. Also, the fact that the video doesn?t show the bottom of the device is a minor point which isn?t enough to provide good grounds to outright send the device to hell. It seems to me some other motives are into play here, not exactly connected with scientific exploration.

Thank you, orionjf for your clarification.

I wonder, however, about something else. If paranoia is to be involved, could it be that the administrator had manipulated the IP addresses of the supporters to appear as the same IP address and thus to compromise easily,  with just one stroke, the inventor?

In that Spanish forum they are very unpolite. And they do not deserve much atention. So forget about them...

In my opinion this device does not work, as I explained before. But that does not mean that I do not help you all to translate and help you in your researches as I promised.

I sugest to keep an eye on inventors web page, and time will tell....

Notice what ridiculous arguments against Torbay?s motor are presented in this link, at that, by people devoted to fighting pseudoscience: http://www.asalup.org/content/view/154/1/ . Here is an excerpt translated with the help of BabelFish:

?Anyone with a vague idea of the history of science would know that in many occasions swindlers have appeared alleging to have invented a ?perpetual motion machine". After these innumerable deceits, one should think that we should be more cautious and when one declares to have produced "free energy" some alarms should start sounding. Nothing of that sort happened to the "magnetic motor", invented by Walter Torbay in Mar del Plata, Argentina; when Channel 8 of Mar del Plata as well as several newspapers, radios and tv-channels made an announcement impelled by unprecedented nationalism and exitismo (?).?

Also

?What hasn?t been said in the media is that to magnetize the material comes at a cost. And this cost must be necessarily greater than the energy gain produced by the equipment, unless the "magnetic motor" breaks the laws of the thermodynamics.?

This ?criticism? is methodologically incorrect. No matter what the truth about the reality of Torbay?s claims is denouncing these claims on the basis of previous failures is unfounded. Unfounded is also to require from an experiment necessarily to obey the laws of thermodynamics. The correct argument works in just the opposite way. The laws of thermodynamics have been accepted only because they have not been shown to be violated by any experiment. If an experiment appears, however, which violates the laws of thermodynamics then it is the findings from the experiment that would take precedence. Our understanding of thermodynamics has to change in such a case. This is not to say that Torbay?s claims are necessarily real. They may not be and still the mentioned methodological principle will continue to hold.

Also, never in any thermodynamic or other scientific analyses of energy balance in a machine is the energy to make the machine taken into account.

Therefore, the above critical ?arguments? must be discarded. There may or may not be other arguments against Torbay?s claims but those specific ?arguments?, mentioned above, should necessarily be discarded.

I strongly encouraged the writer of the text in the link to visit personally Torbay and verify whether the motor is indeed self-sustaining. This is not difficult to be done. All the writer has to do is see the rotor turning all by itself for, say, an hour without anyone touching it and without applying external energy. I also asked him to help me get in touch with the inventor so that I can also make an independent assessment of the claim that the motor is self-sustaining.

I?m trying to find who the correspondents of the Argentinean newspapers accredited in New York are as well as their addresses and phone numbers. I can?t believe that there wouldn?t be at least correspondents of La Nacion and Clarin, the two largest newspapers in Argentina. So far I?m unable to locate them. If anyone has more info in this respect let me know. I?d like to call them or visit them in person on Monday. Any other ideas are also welcome.

@sbassi,
Thanks for the infos.

The magnets probably get cold,
when the motor is running, so it
is just violating the second law, which
is by the way no law at all, cause it
only was defined by experience, but there are
many experiments, which violate the "second law"
under certain conditions...

Torbay is not yet using this motor probably himself
as the current prototype is only able to generate at maximum
around 20 to 50 Watts as it looks like from the burning lamp
foto. The upper attached generator is just too small
to generate more power and the motor itsself is also probably
too small to deliver more power... so at this stage it is
common, that the inventor still uses the grid for his own
electricity, if he does not want to mess around with battery
recharging and 12 Volts to 230 Volts inverters all the time ....

But if the basic principle really works, it is easy to upscale into the
MegaWatts range too.

Have you seen the videos yet ?

Can you ask please somebody in your forum who has stored the old
AVI videos to upload them over here or put them up via
rapidshare.de or something simular ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Here is the link to his patent:
http://www.inpi.gov.ar/pdf/p080306.pdf
It is on page 7 and 8

sbassi, I beg to respectfully disagree with the points you make:

From a strict formal point of view, you are right. A fact is a fact,
even if it goes against a law of nature as we know it. But we didn't
argue that Walter's magnetic engine is impossible because of
thermodynamic laws, we said that Walter's magnetic engine does violate
thermodynamic laws, so this should set off some alarms on the mass
media before publish this story.

If Torbay has indeed demonstrated to the media lighting a bulb with no power from without, no alarms connected with any laws of thermodynamics should be set off.

This is the most extraordinary scientific demonstration one can ever dream of which needs no special verification (except for careful inspection, by those with paranoid inclinations, to assure there?s no fraudulent secret external power source attached to the motor).

I also said that if this were true, he wouldn't be working on his basement, because this is so important that would lead him to the Nobel price.

The fact that he is working in his basement should by no means be held against Тorbay. By no means ... Quite the contrary, this fact should be considered in his favor.

Not to say that demonstrating a self-sustaining device deserves more than a Nobel prize.

We also believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

To place a motor on a table and have it run all by itself without supplying it with energy from the outside is more than an extraordinary evidence. If Torbay can demonstrate this you will have more than you?ve ever asked for.

His is showing his "miraculous device" in TV before doing it in any respectable scientific journal or scientific society.

I congratulate him for this. This is the right thing to do. If he has the goods and can really demonstrate self-sustaining device he will be out of his mind to go through the judgments of people who have not contributed for science anything remotely close to what he is contributing.

This reminds me of a short story by Karel Chapek about a man who had the ability to fly and who lost this ability after he had to appear before a commission which began giving him advice how to go about his flying.

No, Torbay should not appear before such commissions, learned societies and what not. He should just bring his device to the fore and show it to as many people as possible and should reveal every detail of it so that anybody can make it, despite the desire of some to make it go away by their ?laws of thermodynamics? whose essence they even hardly understand.

He also claimed that he rejected a $350M offer to sell it, this is
also very suspicious.

Not suspicious at all. On the contrary, selling his invention to a company is exactly what Torbay should not do. Why? Because once it becomes a property of another party, that party is in its full right to lock it in their safes and never allow anybody to use it ever. That is detrimental to the needs of society and obviously Torbay is fully aware of it and should be commended for that.

As far as I know, he is paying local electric utility company instead of using his putative invention.

It?s a kinda funny proposition to make the shoemaker wear the shoes he himself makes. So, the composer, if we carry your implications further, should only listen to his own music ... or the writer should read only his own books ... Thus, instead of thinking how to perfect his invention, you imply that Torbay should occupy himself first with using his own invention to supply his own needs for electric  power. It somehow appears that your understanding is that discoverers make discoveries to personally benefit from them. I can?t even believe that I am commenting on that.

So we are not objecting it based only on the fact that it is against
well established laws of nature.

As I explained above, your objections should be discarded.

First, not only that the viability of an experiment such as the direct demonstration of self-sustaining device must not be judged on the basis of the known laws of Nature but it should be just the contrary ? our understanding of the laws of Nature should be modified if a self-sustaining device can be demonstrated.

and

Second, any of the additional objections you pose must go, as I explained.

Quote

> 2) Torbay hasn't included the cost of the materials when making the energy balance. This requirement, however, is superfluous. Never in any of the thermodynamic or any other scientific analyses of systems is the energy spent to make the machines taken into account. Thus, this objection to Torbay's invention should also be discounted.

>

[SB]
You may be right here. To be honest, after I wrote this several
members of ASALUP pointed this out. We are evaluating this claim with
an electric engineer, so in a couple of days we well back it up or
take it down (with an apologize if it turns to be wrong). But a bad
debunking will not make his claim true.

Your objection that Torbay has not included in the energy balance the energy necessary to spend for making the machine is also obviously incorrect and should be rejected outright.

Bad debunking is bad debunking and has nothing to do with Torbays?s claims. Bad debunking is your problem, Torbay has nothing to do with your problem. Don?t make it appear that somehow Torbay has problems just because you have such.

From the last part of your post I understand that Torbay is trying to avoid contact with you. Honestly, after I saw your approach I don?t blame him. He?d be much better off avoiding such useless contacts that only waste time and would instead carry out direct demonstrations of his self-sustaining device to as larger an audience as possible.

To prove that his device is viable Torbay has to do only one thing ? place the device on a table and show to the World (the media or whatever other avenue he decides) for, say, an hour that the rotor turns without any external supply of energy. Nothing more. Period. End of story. If this happens all this talk of laws of thermodynamics, respectable scientific journals, scientific societies and the like will, at most, sound mildly amusing.